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BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM The problem is, the officials are making noises like they're gonna be harsh, even if there are 4-5 reasons that this test could be a false positive....just to 'send a message'. I sure hope not. I can't believe Landis' team managers would carry around a testosterone patch.."just in case". I'd bet that most of the other riders don't believe he is guilty. We shall see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM I'm waiting to see what happens, like everyone else. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: ard mhacha Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:09 AM WYSIWYG, and what is your opinion?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:58 AM Floyd Landis positive: Was it the beer? Floyd Landis's "adverse analytical finding" for testosterone in stage 17 of the Tour de France sent shock waves round the cycling world. Landis claims he is innocent and plans to defend himself. John Stevenson and Jeff Jones examine the testosterone test and Landis' possible defences. On Wednesday, the UCI announced that a rider at the Tour de France had returned an "adverse analytical finding", indicating the use of performance-enhancing drugs in a stage of the Tour. Yesterday, after the cycling rumour mill had gone into overdrive, the Phonak team announced that rider was race winner Floyd Landis. The analysis of Landis' A sample from stage 17 of the Tour de France returned an abnormal ratio for the amounts of testosterone to epitestosterone. Testosterone is a naturally occurring hormone which stimulates muscle growth. Epitestosterone is also produced by the body, and while its role is less clear, it is normally present in urine in a ratio of between 1:1 and 3:1 testosterone:epitestosterone (T:E). That normal range gives the basis for the detection of testosterone use in athletes. A T:E ratio of more than 4:1 is considered a positive test; that ratio was lowered from 6:1 at the beginning of 2006. Tests for naturally-occurring substances present a problem for anti-doping authorities. The situation with stimulants such as amphetamines and cocaine is simple: there's no way these substances should be in the body, and so any amount of them or their metabolites in a urine sample is considered proof of doping. But when the substance occurs naturally, anti-doping authorities have to devise a test that detects abnormalities caused by the illegal use of the substance. The problem is that such abnormalities may not be that abnormal after all. For example, a 1996 study of Swedish athletes[1] analysed 8946 urine samples, and found 28 with T:E ratios higher than 6:1, the ratio used to determine a doping infraction at the time. Researchers concluded that only one of those samples could be regarded as a clear case of testosterone doping. Over the years, athletes accused of doping after failing a T:E test have attempted to demonstrate, often successfully, that the elevated ratio had a natural cause[2]. In 1999, for example, Santiago Botero was exonerated of using testosterone because his doctor was able to convince authorities that he had a naturally high T:E ratio after he had returned levels well over 6:1. (Unfortunately for Botero, that doctor was Eufemiano Fuentes, the former Kelme team doctor at the centre of the Operacion Puerto blood doping investigation in Spain; Botero's Phonak team benched him in early June when his links with Fuentes were revealed). Landis is unlikely to rely on that defence, but it may be his only option. He has been tested too many times this year, without problems, to have much chance of claiming he suddenly has a naturally elevated T:E ratio. But it's those previous tests, and especially the ones at the Tour de France, that may help him now. In 1997 mountain bike racer Paola Pezzo tested positive for Nandrolone at a race in Annecy, France on September 6. Pezzo was eventually cleared because tests of samples she gave on August 30 and September 21 were both negative. As the race leader, Landis would have been tested after stage 15 of the Tour, and again after regaining the yellow jersey in stage 19. Those tests are not being reported by the anti-doping authorities as positives. Pezzo relied on evidence from Professor Guido Norbiato of the Faculty Of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Luigi Sacco University Hospital, Milan who claimed that she could have ingested the Nandrolone in meat while in Belgium. Landis will need a convincing explanation of how his T:E ratio came to be elevated on stage 17 of the Tour. The first, and probably weakest, explanation that springs to mind is "Nobody would be dumb enough to dope and then win a stage of the Tour de France by six minutes." Techniques for evading detection are sufficiently well-known that it's not unreasonable to accuse the current anti-doping regime of being an intelligence test. Landis and his staff would know that if he won the stage he would be tested. It's hard to believe that he would take the risk at all; harder still to think that if he did dope, he would do so at a detectable level. German doctor Kurt Moosburger recently detailed the use of steroids for recovery. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours," Moosburger told German press agency dpa. "The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster." Recovery during training has been the traditional use for steroids in sport, but Moosburger implies that it could be used during competition as well. However, one Cyclingnews reader who uses testosterone for legitimate medical reasons points out that the technique does have drawbacks. "Androderm patches are useless they fill your body with water and make the legs heavy," he writes. "They will however cause a big stiff painful erection and it lasts for hours. (Me missus loves it)." However, when he attempted to blame his 2004 EPO positive on contaminated supplements, Belgian rider Dave Bruylandts tried the 'nobody would be dumb enough to dope these days' defence. An unimpressed Belgian cycling federation recommended he be suspended for four years; he eventually copped an 18 month ban. Two other factors have been shown to elevate T:E levels: alcohol and intense effort. A 1988 study [3] found that ingestion of alcohol could increase the T:E ratio, though the effect is relatively small even for a large amount of alcohol. The subjects ingested between 110-160 g of ethanol (2 g/kg bodyweight), and researchers found that it "increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%)." Landis was quoted at the time as saying that he'd only had one beer and a small amount of Jack Daniels later on. Even a pint of normal strength beer generally doesn't contain more than 20 g of alcohol, while a shot of whiskey contains about 10 g - a much lower level than was studied by the Swedish researchers. After the stage Photo ©: AFP Certain types of intense effort have also been shown to increase the T:E ratio[4]. It's hard to imagine a more intense effort than Landis' extraordinary escape in stage 17, but the studies that found high T:E after intense effort refer to the kinds of workout undertaken by bodybuilders. It's not clear whether these findings translate to hours-long aerobic efforts, where strength plays a small part in performance. It's important to note that the above explanations have not been put forward by the Landis camp, but mostly by fans who desperately want to believe that Landis' stage 17 ride and his subsequent Tour de France victory was "real". Landis probably knows that if his B sample is positive, then he'll need something stronger than the above to convince the US Anti-Doping Association that he did not take exogenous testosterone to help him recover after stage 16. [1] Increased urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratios found in Swedish athletes in connection with a national control program. Evaluation of 28 cases. Garle M, Ocka R, Palonek E, Bjorkhem I. - J Chromatogr B Biomed Appl. 1996 Dec 6;687(1):55-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9001952&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_DocSum [2] Performance Characteristics of a Carbon Isotope Ratio Method for Detecting Doping with Testosterone Based on Urine Diols: Controls and Athletes with Elevated Testosterone/Epitestosterone Ratios Aguilera, R., Chapman, T. E., Starcevic, B., Hatton, C. K., and Catlin, D. H. Clin Chem. 2001; 47: 292-300. www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/47/2/292 [3] Effect of ethanol on the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine. Falk O, Palonek E, Bjorkhem I. Clin Chem. 1988 Jul;34(7):1462-4. www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/34/7/1462?ijkey=f5c2e269a70b2808e91787e399f2030aa32cb7a0 [4] Resistance Training Increases Possibility Of A Positive Drug Test Kraemer, W. J., & Ratamess, N. A. (2005). Hormonal responses and adaptations to resistance exercise and training. Sports Medicine, 35, 339-361. coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol116/kraemer.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: ard mhacha Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:30 AM How many more past "champions" were pure?, that would have been a long time ago. Landis was caught, the fool, why didn`t he ask for advice from those "greats" that went before, the Tour de Farce in all it`s glory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:27 PM Landis denies Floyd Landis has broken his silence about his high T/E ratio that could cost him the Tour de France, as well as hammering cycling's already battered image. Landis, who has requested a B sample analysis to confirm his A test, told Sports Illustrated, that he "can't be hopeful" that the B sample will be any different than the A. "I'm a realist," he added. When asked whether he had used a testosterone patch for recovery, Landis denied it straight out. But even if the B sample confirms the A result, Landis is not necessarily guilty of taking an illegal performance enhancing drug to boost his testosterone. Some riders can prove that they have an elevated Testosterone/Epitestosterone (T:E) level, if they undergo an endocrine test performed by a credible doctor. Landis said he will use Spanish doctor Luis Hernández, who has helped other riders prove a high T:E count. "In hundreds of cases, no one's ever lost one," Landis told SI. In 1999, Colombian rider Santiago Botero was able to prove his elevated testosterone levels (over four times the allowed limit) were natural. His doctor at the time was Kelme's Dr Eufemiano Fuentes. Landis is looking for other answers too. He is allowed to take cortisone for his degenerating right hip, although he said during the Tour that he had only had a couple of injections this year. But he also told SI that he'd been taking daily doses of a thyroid hormone to treat a thyroid condition. Even if either of these can explain his high T:E ratio, Landis realises that it will be hard to convince people. "I wouldn't hold it against somebody if they don't believe me," he said. Others have looked at explanations such as the beer Landis had the night before his stage 17 exploit, citing a study in the American Association for Clinical Chemistry (Vol 34, 1462-1464, 1988) by Swedish researchers O Falk, E Palonek and I Bjorkhem. In it, they investigated the effects of the ingestion of between 110-160 g of ethanol (2 g/kg bodyweight). They showed that it "increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%). In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol." As a caveat, Landis was quoted at the time as saying that he'd only had one beer. A pint of normal strength beer generally doesn't contain more than 20 g of alcohol - a much lower level than was studied by the Swedish researchers. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM well, it's been on TV with an interview with a guy who knows more...what he says is that Landis actually has LOWER than normal testosterone, and that it was only a ratio that was abnormal. He also said there are two factors that might have caused this....the cortisone shots he had been getting for the hip pain (all approved and noted), and his having had some beer to celebrate the stage. Alcohol sometimes alters the endocrine system. Anyway, they now have to test the 'B' sample to see if it was perhaps a faulty test...then debate the results. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: John Routledge Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:52 PM When Landis was riding in Stage 17 not one of the three experienced Eurosport commentators said that they were wrong when they predicted the previous day that there was NO WAY Landis could recover from his blow up. :0( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM I think this is the "everybody does it" drug of choice, and I can see why. It's not considered perfomance-enhancing directly, but is more of a recovery strategy. (I still think it's wrong.) I can well imagine the patch was left just a moment too long..... but damn, I regret this news so much! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:56 PM Oh, crap!....I sure hope it proves to be natural. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM News today: Phonak confirms Landis positive The Phonak team has confirmed the speculation that Floyd Landis returned a positive A sample after his win in stage 17 of the Tour de France. "The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI about an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said the team in a statement. "The team management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result. "The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation. In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear. "If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample, the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations." The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests. Background: Jaksche's doctor: drug use common German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate." To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery." Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster." ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Dave Masterson Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:10 AM And the next stage is…. London! Stage 1 actually passes the end of our lane, so we'll stake our claim outside the local pub and enjoy the day. I think this year has been the best for years, so open. Landis fully deserved his victory, really showing his mettle after blowing on La Toussuire. Pereiro proved to himself he's got what it takes and will be interesting to watch in the future. One of the stars of the race for me was Michael Boogerd. Seeing him burying himself in the mountains day after day for team-mates was awesome, and still managing 14th overall. Pure class. I thought David Millar acquitted himself very well considering he hadn't raced for 2 years, coming straight back into racing at the Tour. It was interesting to see the poor performance of certain 'stars', Mayo in particular. He may well have been having an off time, but it does make you think what 'help' he may have had in the past. Roll on 2007. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM Indeed, I watched live as Ekimov was sent to the front for that well-deserved tribute. Not only did he finish 15 consecutive Tours, but he was well up in the standings many times. I am not impressed by the sprinters who can't (or don't bother) even finishing. Robbie McEwen at least rides the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM Various bits from cyclingnews:
Landis to ride two Dutch crits
Phonak's Tour riders extend contracts
Ekimov retiring in September ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM An honors days, true...but all it would have taken would be for Landis to have flatted out on the Champs d'Elysse to change everything. Now he's off for his hip replacement, and I hope we see him again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM The last day is an honours day in many respects. Have you seen how Ekimov was the first to enter the Champs Elysees, 100 m in front of all others then waved to the spectators and went back into the peloton again? Why? Because he is the doyen of them all now being 40 years old and on his 15th and last Tour. I loved those little gestures. The Tour is full of them when you know where to look. But though I'm fond of traditions, next year we really should have a new thread. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Cats Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:32 AM So, yesterday, just before the finish, my sister phones up and says, this cycling race thingy... do both of you want a bed for the first weekend next year or just Jon? It's only going to pass her house by 10 miles.. yippee... Now, can I pull a sickie on the Monday so I can get home..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:15 PM I wondered the last 2 days about why there so ready to 'declare' a winner after the time trial....then FINALLY one of the commentators on OLN said.. "You may be wondering about tomorrow's race...I suspect that if Pererio were to mount a breakaway tomorrow and try to win, the Cycling Gods would come down out of the clouds and smack him on the side of the head! That's just the way it IS in cycling!" So, the only race tomorrow is for the sprinters to get the honor of winning the Paris stage. The rest is just a parade. Maybe that's for the best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:30 PM A fine competition today. Cunedo has surprised me. Some team managers will retrospectively rue their wrong decisions. First, they should have known that Pereiro was better then his rank showed when they let steal him 30 minutes at one etappe. Each of the teams could easily have halved that time in the last hour. Second, they (Kloeden's team and Sastre's team) made the wrong decision not to go after Landis the day before yesterday. In interviews they said that they didn't believe he could keep up his speed for so long. He actually couldn't, for he was a bit slower on the last ascent than the others, but only so slightly. In this case, I'm not so sure that the teams could have prevented Landis taking so many minutes from them, strong as he was that day. The mistake was that they didn't even try and instead relied upon Landis having miscalculated his strength. Both team managers said that they looked at the respective other team and when that team didn't react they relied upon that judgement. It's a classical case of if you don't do the hard work I also can't be bothered and in the end both lose. Again, nothing will happen tomorrow that could change the first ten positions. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM LOL, thanks, TIA. I'm half happy, and my favorite among the Bishop nominees is within a vote of prevailing. On the other hand, you never know what may transpire over the lunch break they may have begun! :~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:13 AM Well, don't die, but arntcha happy now?!?! Kloden came on like a madman. A sprint into Paris may decide it. I'm getting up early to watch live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:25 AM Our diocese is electing a new Bishop today at the same time Floyd is riding the TT. They're posting each ballot result on their website as Phil and Paul update the split times. I'm so excited I can hardly stand it! If the suspense kills me, the first splits and ballots indicate that I'll at least die happy! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:43 PM Bill, I can't remember a serious race into Paris except the one time when the last stage was a time trial which LeMond won against Fignon. Landis will get the yellow tomorrow (only a serious fall could prevent that). The green jersey is safely on McEwen's shoulders as well as the dotted belongs to Rasmussen. T-Mobile will remain the best team. The last jersey, the white, is the most disputed with 5 sec difference between the first two. Same as the yellow, it'll be sported tomorrow night by a different man, Fothen. There won't be a serious race the last day and McEwen should win the sprint. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM As a great time-trialer, he is favored to gain a bit tomorrow, but wouldn't it be 'interesting' if they had to RACE seriously into Paris, as Le Mond did against Hinault? Some of those cobblestones are murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: EBarnacle Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:13 PM no one has ever ridden in his condition in the first place. Yegods, if anyone can come back after surgery, he can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM I think Lance is thinking "Gee, I'm glad he was working WITH me before!"... And this may well be Floyd's last tour...no one has ever come back from a hip replacement and ridden competitively.....but.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Fidjit Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM What a day. Wow! Good man. Very impressive. Sastre Too. Just 12 secs back. Contre la Motre on Saturday. 57 km. Only 30secs. Could well do it. Chas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:11 PM Un-be-freaky-lievable! Very few (even here in his hometown) thought any human could pull off what Floyd did today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:09 PM yup!....(I liked the interview...*grin*..."I had to do SOMETHING after yesterday") |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM I'm gonna have to see it all over again tonight before I can believe it! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM totally amazing today! He just went. Even Sastre was congratulating him.... The other's want to win; Landis talks like he INTENDS to win. He is so good at time trials that he may manage that win. I'll bet there are some serious challenges tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM The first three are within 30 s. More interesting than the last couple of years. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM ?!?!?!?!?!? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:01 AM What a comeback of Landis today. I wouldn't have thought it possible. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM Today, Landis attacks early at the first mountain. I wonder if he can keep up this speed. If he can he's in the game again. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:35 AM BTW, Klöden had said to his team long before this Tour that it would be his last Tour as a helper of Ullrich that next year he'd seek his chance with his own team. Now this chance comes a bit earlier than planned. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM Well, Landis would have won the first time trial if he hadn't had a bike problem delaying his start and having to ride a different (less aerodynamic) bike at the last minute. So if he gets a lot of time back tomorrow, AND rides a good TT, he may still do it. Secretly (now I'll be busted), though, I'm rooting for Klodi. I've always thought he was as good as Ullrich and deserved a chance for himself, with team support. Ultimately, it may come down to who has the better team riding in support. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:18 PM It is worth looking at the performances of the riders at the first long time trial (a bit shorter than the one on Saturday; 52/57 km)). I list only the time differences of the best eleven (still within ten minutes of the yellow today) of the overall competition and do not look at the best time trialists then: (1) Landis (2) Rogers 23 s back (3) Klöden 42 s (4) Menchov 43 s (5) Evans 48 s (6) Moreau 1'03 (7) Sastre 1'10 (8) Pereiro 1'40 (9) Zubielda 2'31 (10) Dessel 2'41 (11) Leiph. 5'05 Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Fidjit Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:54 PM My money's on Sastre. 2nd. today and still getting better. Chas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM It is a very unusual race with Lance, Ullrich and a couple of others out. I would not have believed that Pereiro would come charging back like that. But I will reserve ANY predictions till after tomorrow, as there are still 5-6 who might pull surprises. (well, except for Rasmussen, whe clearly locked up the Mountains title today.......unless he falls over. He scared me on that decent today!) I am awed by Dessell, who is staying with it despite everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM Hard even for Flandis, without a team that can do for him what Discovery did for Lance. Still, this has ended up being a highly watchable Tour. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM Landis looked like a sure winner to me yesterday when he took the yellow jersey but he had a jour sans today. The greatest surprise today for me was that Pereiro came back after his defeat yesterday. That boy had lost half an hour in the Pyrenees and only came in front by a 30 minutes advantage in a flat etappe for noone took him serious. That'll change now. The first six are within four minutes and the winner will come from them. The dot jersey will go to Rasmussen most likely. The green jersey will go to McEwen (though his point advantage is not yet big). The white jersey is a close call between Fothen and Cunego. If Fothen survives tomorrow in white he'll take it in Paris. The most likely candidate for the yellow in Paris now is Klöden, but I would have said that about Landis yesterday with even more conviction. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM It's gonna be a scramble, for sure! Perhaps the winner will be both pretty good.....and quite lucky! 'New' names on almost every stage, now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:52 PM With Mayo another one of the favourites mentioned in previews is out (27 minutes back). Who's remaining? Hincapie, Kloeden (never yet good this year), Landis (problems with his hip; he'll need an operation)? Leipheimer (10 min back due to an awful contre la montre performance). I wonder (again) whether we'll see a completely new winner, a dark horse or whether it'll be one of the usual suspects. Tomorrow is the first real test with the famous Tourmalet as an appetizer before 4 col of the premier categorie, the last one being the finish. We'll know much more tomorrow at this time. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM Doping: Whether all remaining are doped or not all is the question, but noone believes those suspended are the only ones. I believe that Armstrong has been doped as well but I do not mind for I believe all relevant others also have been doped one way or the other. Eighty percent of the German rather good cross country skiing team have asthma. Why? Because this diagnosis allows them to take medication that is also helpful in other respects. They all know the rules in cycling and the limits for substances in the blood) and try to keep under the limits but to go as far as possible. The present suspects have not been found out by controls (like Armstrong they were clever enough not to dope too much) but by bugged telephones, E-mails, lists etc. A test for doping would have been negative in all of them. I favour a radically different approach. The present system forces them all to lie and if found out (mostly by a chance event) they lose their job. I'm not in favour of free doping, for we would have half a dozen dead cyclists this way. I'm in favour of blood controls to determine that they are under a dangerous level of substances. How close below that level and which way they went so close I wouldn't check. Only check for dangerous levels and exclude them in this case for their own safety. The present system often leads to silly situations. They can't take any medication without cheking with a specialist. Even a medication for a cold that you and I would take without second thoughts can be considered doping. Do you read the silly excuses when someone has been found out? Ullrich some years ago was found with a bit too much of a substance on the doping list. He checked with his doctor what the best excuse was (which way the substance can have come into his body without intentional doping) and came up with a party drug he had taken out of sillyness at a party. This way he got a minor penalty. Another silly case: A German runner very outspoken against drugs and for frequent test during training as well who had even mentioned some names of (German) colleagues whom he suspected for the sudden increase of running ability was found with a drug in his blood at a routine test. Most likely the drug has come into his body by a toothpaste that has been injected with the drug, prsumably by one of the colleagues who were fed up with his whistle blowing. There are attempts at foul play in all sports by many means (playing foul, cheating with the material, bending the rules). For instance in Formula 1, Ferrari builds its cars in a way that is very close at the limits of the rules (some say, even on the wrong side of the limit). What would happen if this would be considered a cheat by the referees. They would lose the points from that race but they wouldn't be excluded from racing for two years. What happens if the luge in the Olympics is found to have been heated? The winner would lose his medal but could start again next week with an unheated luge. I'm for the controls but I don't see why cheating with the substances in your body is worse than cheating with the material or cheating by taking a shortcut at Marathon (it has happened). If you are found out you are disqualified for the event but not for two years or even life. I'd opt for such an approach in cycling: If they are found out cheating (for instance: fill the cycle with ice for the weighing procedure which will melt during the race and make it lighter) you are disqualified for that race. If you come next time with a correct cycle you can race. I would agree with longer disqualification for actually hurting or injuring your opponent. Then it could be weeks or even months. But which way you build up your muscles after an injury (a normal person would take at the doctors advice things that are forbidden to sportlers!) would be your choice as long as you do not damage your health. So the amount of substances in your blood or other body fluids should be lower than a limit. Your blood should not be too thick for that may kill you. But that would disqualify you for the race in question (better test before it starts) and usually not much longer. Close to all athletes in endurance sports take more substances than the usual human intake. Most of them are not yet known (the substances) and so it is not doping in one sense, other substances are only added to the diet in exactly that degree that is still below the limit. That's also not doping in the usual test (but it is if your telephone is bugged and you discuss with your doctor about it). You cannot win a race only on substances without ability, training and determination. With "my" (I have heard about this idea in the radio) doping tests (exclude them for a race if there is danger for their health) they wouldn't have to lie. Armstrong could have told: Yes, beside all my exercises I take a bit of XY because that helps the regeneration after a long day of training. But in all the weekly controls I did not surpass the allowed limit. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM With Valverde one more of the favourites is out now (injury after a fall). I wonder whether we'll see a winner who has never been mentioned in any of the previews. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:25 AM agreed, Wolfgang, that total control is impossible....but attempts should be made to lessen the problem....and on several of the serious climbs where fools get out and and almost block the path and RUN along side the cyclists and pat them on the back, it has become a real issue. I have seen race leaders almost knocked over by photographers and zealous well-wishers. The race organizers 'could' limit this nonsense if they cared to...and a few arrests would send a message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:13 AM It is impossible to control the spectators in this type of sport. Too many of them on a too long track. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:05 AM Hushovd did start this AM. Below, updates from cyclingnews. ~S~ ---------------------------- Tour organisation bans PMU hands On Sunday evening, after the hectic "sprint royal" finale of stage two in which prologue winner Thor Hushovd was thought to have hit a plastic cardboard hand which cut deep into his upper arm, the Tour de France organisation has announced that it will prohibit the use of the marketing giveaways in the last two kilometres of flat stages. Certainly, fans leaning over the barriers and waving the objects pose another threat in the sprint finishes, which are already very dangerous. Other objects such as still or video cameras should not be held over the barriers either, as they represent the same risk. [There is actually some doubt over whether it was a PMU hand or another object, like a camera, that cut Thor Hushovd's arm - ed.] Hushovd alright Crédit Agricole's Thor Hushovd, who suffered a cut on his right upper arm in the finale of stage 1, has received several stitches to his wound in a Strasbourg hospital. He was able to leave the clinic at 19.00 in the evening. "Thor lost a lot of blood," said his DS Roger Legeay. "It was a terrible sight. The cut itself isn't that bad though. The doctors said that he would suffer more from the contusion, though. He won't feel so well in the next 5 or 6 days during the race." But fortunately, the Norwegian rider will be able to continue the Tour de France. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: dianavan Date: 03 Jul 06 - 01:33 AM Drugs are present in every sportm including mountain biking. Roland Green (a young friend of mine) said, "Cycling has always been a victim of drugs. The press will always focus on drugs in cycling, I think. Drugs are just as prevalent in other sports, but there is a lot more money involved in those sports, so they won't focus on it. Why cycling? There are a lot of great athletes, making next to no money. There are positive drug tests going back to Merckx and Hinault's times. Why don't you hear more about the (top) riders' positives? Money. In other sports, where the athletes get paid $10 million, they have the lawyers to fight for them, the system can't afford to have them go (get caught/sanctioned). The advantage just keeps passing to the riders with the most money. It is the small guys like Shep (Chris Sheppard) who get crucified. Shep, now his opinion (against doping) is worth more now than ever, but not in Canada - we have the attitude that everything is so pure and clean. So he can't assist anymore. The (current system), I see a lot of waste, a lot of money that could go other, better ways. The only thing that I have seen that is promising is the volunteer program, where athletes sign up and make their blood tests publicly available. If you could get more and more riders to participate, it might put more pressure on those that don't. Other than maybe that, I don't know what the answer is." From Canadian Cyclist. |
