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BS: Where now Thatcher haters?

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GUEST,Teribus 09 Sep 12 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Teribus 09 Sep 12 - 06:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Sep 12 - 06:27 AM
akenaton 09 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM
Will Fly 09 Sep 12 - 05:08 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Sep 12 - 04:21 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Sep 12 - 01:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Sep 12 - 05:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Sep 12 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 08 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Teribus 08 Sep 12 - 07:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Sep 12 - 05:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Sep 12 - 08:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Sep 12 - 08:44 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 07 Sep 12 - 02:53 PM
MikeL2 07 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM
Stu 07 Sep 12 - 01:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 12:42 PM
Stu 07 Sep 12 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,punfolkrocker 07 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 10:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Sep 12 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 06:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 12 - 05:44 AM
stallion 07 Sep 12 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM
stallion 07 Sep 12 - 04:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Sep 12 - 05:55 AM
Owen Woodson 06 Sep 12 - 05:45 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Sep 12 - 04:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 12 - 03:54 AM
akenaton 06 Sep 12 - 03:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 12 - 02:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Sep 12 - 03:04 PM
Stu 05 Sep 12 - 01:18 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Sep 12 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Sep 12 - 05:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Sep 12 - 05:03 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Sep 12 - 02:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Sep 12 - 08:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Sep 12 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:55 AM

"Churchill said after the war that the NHS was unsustainable, unworkable and unrealistic - he wasn't always right."

Just happened to be right about that though.

Germany - took it's Marshall Aid Money and built the means to create wealth and prosperity then put the tax income and put that to work

Great Britain - took it's Marshall Aid money and ploughed it into all of the Labour Parties sacred cows and let British industry go hang on a "Make Mend And Do" basis - we can no longer afford the NHS, nothing political in that statement it is simply a reality - We can no longer afford our Welfare State because too many people want something for nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:47 AM

Big Al

1: Redistribution of wealth? Wealth is earned or inherited - your redistribution is that just another hand-out or is it done the old fashioned way by working for it?

2: If you are fully entitled under law to own what you own and so am I - then it naturally follows on that the likes of the Duke of Westminster is fully entitled to own what he owns - if you wish to "suck your teeth" in envious outrage then more fool you.

In yet another display of complete and utter ignorance you seem to think that:

a: Charles owns Cornwall - he doesn't - He is the Duke of Cornwall

Established in 1337, the duchy was created with the express purpose of providing income to the heir apparent to the throne; thus, it traditionally goes to the eldest son of the reigning monarch. Although the duke owns the income from the estate, he does not own the estate outright and does not have the right to sell capital assets for his own benefit.

In 2010, the duchy generated £17.1 million in income. As the Duke of Cornwall is not a subject of the Queen he is not legally required to pay income tax [18 The National Archives LO 3/467, Duchy of Cornwall – Land Tax and Valuation, 1913, see also My Queen and I, Willie Hamilton, 1975 p. 217]. However, since 1993 Prince Charles has voluntarily agreed to pay income tax at the normal rates (see: Finances of the British Royal Family). Approximately half of this income was spent on public and charitable works.


WOW half spent on public and charitable works eh? what a bastard - More on the tax side of things tax:

"As a crown body, the duchy is exempt from paying corporation tax. Since 1993, the Prince of Wales has voluntarily paid income tax at the normal rates. The Prince paid a voluntary contribution to the treasury of 50% of his Duchy income from the time he became eligible for its full income at the age of 21 in 1969, and paid 25% from his marriage in 1981 until the current arrangement commenced in 1993. Tax is calculated after deducting business expenditure, the biggest source of which is the Prince's staff of about 110 who assist with his performance of official duties, including private secretaries and a valet working in his office at Clarence House and at Highgrove House. Detailed records are kept to determine the split between official and private expenditure."

2: The Queen owns what she owns which amounts to the estates of Sandringham and Balmoral, both bought and paid for by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert - that is right Big Al bought and paid for just as I bought my house - yet you seem to think I should not have that right and that I own my house by some form of theft.

This "black card tax" set you refer to - you mean the likes of comedian Jimmy Carr and other great luminaries of the stage and screen, how do our pop stars and othe so-called celebrities weigh in with regard to tax avoidance schemes - made millions how much tax did John Lennon pay? That great champion of Scottish Independence Shirr Shhawn Connery - took the knighthood and over the course of our working lives I can bet that I have paid more in tax to the UK Government than he has.

Take a good look at the changing face of Great Britain over the last 300 years the ONE single group that has fallen, and fallen mightily, has been the "aristocracy". Still Al don't let facts or the truth get in the way of a "good socialist MYTH", or downright lie.

The contributions of - The Crown Estate - The Duchy of Lancaster - The Duchy of Cornwall - are all a matter of public record and are very, very well scrutinised and audited.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

'the striking miners of Scargill's time'

no mention of Scargill himself. Read more carefully.

Do you really imagine you would have anything like the standard of lving you enjoy wthout the Labour movement in England.

I respect Chuchill's sagacity - the recent series on TV about the influence of John Churchill his ancestor on his tactical thinking in the war, was brilliant. But as my father said, 'people talk about his sacrifices....but the most useless, laziest footsoldier who died in the apalling circumstances that people died in battle, gave more'.

Churchill said after the war that the NHS was unsustainable, unworkable and unrealistic - he wasn't always right. His class believed that and they have believed that throughout history - look at the howls of tory anguish that Shaftsbury had ringing in his ears as he tried to introduce the Ten Hour Bill for children in factories.

How ever bad you think the 1945 govt. was - they were right about some things and had their way about th NHS. Thank God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:27 AM

""I knew you'd come up wth all that paranoid shit about labour movement and trade unions who were just trying to stop their members being shit on from a great height, and have probably given you every material advantage that you enjoy. i tried to forestall it - but you've come up with it again.If you have no gratitude or sense of history, or respect for the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the striking miners of Scargill's time- in my eyes you're a bit of fool, and have been taken in by the toffs who write the history books.""

Sometimes you're a bit of a twit mate. How young do you think I am?

I'm not reading from history. I WAS THERE!

Having changed direction and taken an apprenticeship to qualify as a carpenter/joiner and wood machinist, it took methree years to get work in that trade. WHY? Fucking trade unions refused to recognise that I was newly qualified, and wouldn't allow me to work, in any of their closed shop domains.

During those three years I worked for Southern Water, cleaning sewers, so don't tell me I owe respect or gratitude to the trade union movement.

I remember the days of the Attlee govrnment when the trade unions dealt fairly with management, and I remember the lies and the intransigent stupidity of your hero Scargill, who led his members by the nose into a strike lasting a year, after which they got exactly what they would have had if they'd ignored him.

Scargill did more to destroy the unions than Thatcher ever could, innocent people died, families were ripped apart, and I should be grateful for that. Dream on laddie!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

2.. "Akenaton, I noticed a comment from you that I entirely agree with."

Sorry Musket, Hope you dont think that I am being discriminatory, but I have no data for your group....the primordial sludge dwellers, for whom the dizzy heights of bottom feeder must seem a giant leap. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:08 AM

I've jumped into this thread here and there and not bothered to become engaged as, like many another thread of its ilk, it goes along predictable and unchanging lines. But I thought I might add just a word on Tony Benn.

Benn - whatever you think of his actual political activity and his political stance - is, I believe, one of the few genuinely sincere political figures in this country. People who sneer at him for renouncing his peerage to stay in the Commons should check the facts before writing him off with a sneer.

1. The peerage was awarded to his father in 1941 in an attempt by the coalition government to get more Labour peers into the Lords.

2. The peerage was to have passed to Benn's elder brother Michael - but he was killed in the war (Benn himself served as a pilot in South Africa and Rhodesia).

3. Michael, intending to enter the priesthood, hadn't cared whether he became a peer or not, but Tony Benn genuinely objected to it as it would stop his career in the Commons. He tried to renounce it, unsuccessfully, on several occasions until the law was changed.

I didn't agree with all of Benn's ideas and policies, but he did support British industry as far as he was able, given the time. What I do find interesting is a quote from him which you might apply to our times:

As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is.

Benn also loathed the EEC, calling it bureaucratic and centralised. So - not a crude, two-dimensional man, but one with a range of views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:21 AM

What is the "black card tax alternative" that you rant on about in this paranoid manner Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 01:11 AM

Al ~ I do see where you are coming from; but, like Don, think you mistaken. I remember the 1945 government and the baleful FX from which the country has never recovered; mainly thanks to that sadistic-ascetic would-be do-gooder, The Hon Sir Stafford Cripps, who had all the silly half-digested idealism of Lord Stansgate aka Tony Benn, but, unlike him, had had a charismaectomy which rendered him entirely charmless. I think it worth repeating here FWIW a post I put recently on the 'Reassertion of American values' thread in response to a typical silliness from Richard ···

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM
Oh - and whence the idea that Churchill had any finer principles? Look at his history, and the resounding answer the British people gave him when the right to elections was restored to them.
.,,.,..,
It was the biggest mistake made in our 20C history, the worst and loudest clanger the British electorate ever dropped. So many were fed up with being bossed around by the Officer Class, whom they imagined Churchill to represent, that they elected what they supposed to be his opposite: a party nominally led by Clement Attlee (Winchester & Oxford), but effectively led, as by far the strongest personality, by Stafford Cripps (Winchester & UCL) -- an ultra-puritanical believer in mortification of the body for the good of soul. It was his insistence on the 'austerity' policy of rationing and self-denial, so necessary in the wartime that had just ended, for an inordinate length of time into the postwar period, that enabled the rest of Europe, both the countries that had been occupied by Germany, and, in particular, West Germany itself, to outstrip us in achievement and prosperity. As the saying went, "We won the War but lost the Peace". That would not have happened if Churchill had continued to govern inspirationally as he had from 1940 to 1945. By the time Britain came to its senses in 1951, after six years of Crippsian tyranny, it was too late: he was past it, and his successor Eden was not up to the job. Our nation is still reeling from the dire effect of those six years at such a vital time in what should have been our post-war regeneration but was sabotaged and destroyed by doctrinaire public-school champagne socialists.


~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:59 PM

We disagree. As Dylan said - you're right from your side, Im right from mine....

I knew you'd come up wth all that paranoid shit about labour movement and trade unions who were just trying to stop their members being shit on from a great height, and have probably given you every material advantage that you enjoy. i tried to forestall it - but you've come up with it again.If you have no gratitude or sense of history, or respect for the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the striking miners of Scargill's time- in my eyes you're a bit of fool, and have been taken in by the toffs who write the history books.

You know the drill by now - the battle of Britain was won by Winston Churchill and 'a few decent cheps' who talked like Michael Dennison - not a load of sergeant pilots, many of whom died for us.

As for terribus - there lies, damned lies and statistics. If what you say bears any relation to the truth - why do so may of top rich boys go from the black card tax alternative. Why is English economic life starving for want of investmant funds - all our bright ideas go abroad. Why is there no redistribution of wealth of any appreciable degree. the same lot stay VERY VERY rich. Vote tory and thats what you are voting for.

Of course if you think the Duke of Westminster is entitled to own London. Charles is entitled to own Cornwall. The Queen is entitled to incalculaBLY more. That's okay.

But if you don't believe me, take Jesus's word for it - you either your bury your talents in a field (called the British aristocracy) or you get off you ass and do something positive with the opportunities it offers. the british people has its talent buried deep in that field and you lot are voting for the internment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:30 PM

""These people the Tories that you keep voting for. Its like drinking with some guy who is really shifty, goes to the lav every time its his round. the people you are voting for are cosying up to these people - pretending that they're mates one of the boys. And the're not - they're out for them selves.""

IN YOUR OPINION!

Which, I believe, I am free to accept or reject without being called names by either side.

The trouble with you and Mr Bridge (and some others), is that you can't stand the fact that more than 30% of the population vote Tory.

If you took the trouble to examine your figures closely, you would be forced to admit that rich toffs are only a tiny minority of that group. So, what do you think is the reason for more working and middle class people voting Tory than voting Labour?

Could it be the consistent incompetence and dishonesty of successive Labour governments devaluing the currency, allowing the infrastructure to fall into disrepair and allowing the trades unions to run rampant with totally unsustainable wage claims and restrictive practices, which were the true killer of the bulk of British Industry?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

Err... I used to be a miner and now I am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist.

Can someone tell me, using the wonderful logic displayed on this thread, whether my 5p I put in a collecting tin the other day makes me a workin class hero or not?

Tony Benn was the MP for Chesterfield when I chaired a local NHS trust. Always got on with him, thought him one of the last of the great orators but to be honest, even when I followed him on stage during the strike, I thought his views unsustainable. Not a problem when you are a bloke in a pub but this guy used to be a minister...

Oh, Paul Foot, as he has been mentioned. Just after the strike, he rummaged in the bins of a neighbour and knocked on our door offering us money to say things against our friend. Ok he got his story albeit without my help. One of the miners who took The NUM to court and got the funds sequestrated for saying we voted to strike when we didn't also happened to be a burglar. So in Foot's view, that made the highlighting of criminal actions by Scargill wrong.

I am not capable of following that logic so perhaps it bars me from joining a socialist utopian outcome to the worries of the world?


Anyway, shouldn't speak ill of the dead eh? Perhaps that is why it is still ok to slag off Th*tcher. On that score, I am at one with armchair socialists and chippy buggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:33 AM

"What needs to be done is to give the queen and her mates a salary of a million quid. take their wealth and get those people who sit in the dragons den and and can recognise a decent business idea to invest the money. Run the rotyal estates and art collections as businesses" - big Al Whittle

Oddly enough Al the Queen does not need the £1 million you offer. The Queen and the whole of the Royal Family do not cost the British Tax Payer so much as one penny, in fact as contributers they pay in a great deal in tax. Amazing display of ignorance on your part Al - particularly liked "Run the royal estates and art collections as businesses" - I think that you find that they already are - and very successfully too in 2011 they put over £242million into the pot. Pity that the Government wasn't as good at running things.

Royal family - pay freeze since 1991 - and they have managed to reduce costs and create a contingency fund of over £31 million in the process.

Don T is quite correct and oddly enough it was Canadian Premier Pierre Trudeau who pointed out that taxing the rich (top 10% pay something like 55% of total tax collected) till the pips squeak (a-lá Denis Healey) means that using the example Trudeau used:

1: You are rich - you can either pay 15% in Canada or 20% in the USA - where do you take your wealth and live?

2: I implement your suggestions - The rich can now pay 25% in Canada or 20% in the USA - where do you take your wealth and live?

If I take your advice and raise taxes and target the rich - we end up collecting less tax than we did before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:11 AM

the problem with your logic Don is that its wrong. the whole point about the black card business is that the funds of the richerst people are in govt. hands already - we wouldn't even have to sequestrate them.

That's how the black card scheme works. they pay no tax, but the govt's got their money, which they invest wisely but amorally.

Look, these people live in one of the best countries in the world. if their flashy health schemes tell them to fuck off cost they cost too much, - the NHS takes care of them; they live securely; they are protected by young poorly paid soldiers and policemen wh will lay down their lives for them; the shops are full; they can afford anything; they have all kinds of wonderful spiritual and political freedom; so much more than than you and I would ever dream of; and the klist goes on; artistic freedom, a beautiful environment....

And it costs. And these guys REALLY are not paying their whack.

These people the Tories that you keep voting for. Its like drinking with some guy who is really shifty, goes to the lav every time its his round. the people you are voting for are cosying up to these people - pretending that they're mates one of the boys. And the're not - they're out for them selves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:50 PM

A couple of hundred Tony Benns in Parliament is exactly what I meant when I talked about a genuine socialist party.

He never was the "red Menace" that some folk claimed, but a genuine socialist, as were John Smith and Bob Marshall-Andrews.

Unfortunately, we have only the one.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:44 PM

""We use the resources that are ours anyway - the stuff in thwe tight clammy little hands of class betters - sitting there doing nowt except getting invested in slave labour in the third world by city types. We take it, invest it England.""

Sounds good in theory, but five minutes after a bill was introduced to make that possible, the airlines would be swamped with bookings to the Cayman Islands, or similar, as all those "class betters" leave for parts foreign, taking all that dosh with them.

Scuppered!

(""class betters?"" - what does that mean, by the way, I don't acknowledge any "betters", nor do I claim to be better than anybody else).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:01 PM

It's something all politicians of whatever political persuasion do, as a matter of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 02:53 PM

bloody hell, sugar- you just need to add live music and walking in the lovely wild bits and you are describing my life.

re tony benn - has been a consistent and compassionate voice on the left all his adult life. what's not to like? and what's more, when we invited all the well-known people we like to our wedding a few years back, he was on the only one who got in touch* personally, talking on the phone to mscockermouth for 15 minutes. people like nelson mandela, henrik larsson, jo brand and michael mcgoldrick might appear to be nice guys - but could they be arsed to reply? nor did anyone famous turn up to our 'bring your own lunch box' picnic invitation near a pub near skipton -despite offers of prizes for best box.

* to be fair, kate rusby, hairy bikers and leonard cohen did send apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM

Hi

<" Labour is making all sorts of vague promises to "deal with" this and that, but not a word about HOW, and even less about WHERE THEY'LL FIND THE DOSH!">

Thought that is the Coalition and they are the Government aren't they???

Cheers

Mikel2


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 01:21 PM

"How do the left react to the upwardly mobile working class person then?"

I dunno. I'm one of them chattering middle class pseudo-intellectuals with leanings towards Marxism, environmentalism and traditional Irish music and I believe in the power of science and art to illuminate our world and the human condition, and furthermore I believe compassion to all our fellows should be the motivating factor in creating a better society for all, but realising our own potential can only be achieved through hard work and personal discipline.

I still love a good curry and getting pissed though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

No I was being serious Don. You say we can't afford t borrow money to invest in our country -its infrastructure, the education of kids, housing, the health service, etc.

I'm just saying okay - so we don't borrow. We use the resources that are ours anyway - the stuff in thwe tight clammy little hands of class betters - sitting there doing nowt except getting invested in slave labour in the third world by city types. We take it, invest it England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:42 PM

How do the left react to the upwardly mobile working class person then? I bet they are called traitors!
It's OK to elect to be downwardly mobile, but I suspect, not upwardly ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:43 AM

So rich people can't become socialists now? Good to see the class system's intact, and I bet there are some toffs in the cabinet who are very pleased it doesn't work the other way around as the working class tories abandoning the party would mean any chance of re-election would disappear in a puff of smoke.

Tony Benn, whom I met very briefly last year was an excellent chap, an intellectual who realised the injustice of a system he was born into and worked to alter that. He was very interested in what I did for a living and was an engaging and thoughtful speaker.

Of course politicians generally hate people who can think for themselves, the right more than the left in my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM

Although easy to be suspicious of the likes of born toff Tony Benn....

Back in the 80's,
a council estate raised polytechnic educated young lefty
respected him for his qualities as an inspiring radical intellect and orator..

likewise, Paul Foot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 10:55 AM

I always wonder where the self promoting Anthony Wedgewood (Looney) Benn comes in the heirarchy when "toffs" are denigrated by a class warrior. I mean he preaches socialism, he renounced his peerage (Only so as he could stay as an MP) but. I don't think he gave his money to the poor and needy, or moved to a council estate. It's the big fish in a small pond, syndrome.
So as far as I'm concerned he's what I'd call a 'trimmer'. or a right old Vicar of Bray.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:54 AM

""You wanted an alternative to kisssing the bums of the toffs, Don.""

The word you were searching for is "kicking" Al, not kissing.

But at least it shows the weakness of your argument.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM

By buggery, I posted a thoughtful well prosed counter opinion to some of this debate yesterday and it seems to have cocked up as it isn't here.

No matter, I was only taking the piss out of Bridge's hilarious hypocrisy.

On a walking holiday in The Highlands so Internet access is limited to say the least. That said, this thread, whilst a desperately sad indictment of a disgraceful ex politician does manage to throw up the odd chuckle.

1. My dear Bridge, two points. First, a person's view reflecting self interest is not a viable excuse to treat them with contempt. Although someone who prostitutes themselves to defend their self interest in courts may wish to reconsider their earlier stance? Secondly, The NHS has not just started rationing care for reasons. Of cost, they have been doing it since 1948. The budget is the budget, not the budget plus a few pennies. Sad, but other than making savings elsewhere or raising taxes, 'twas ever thus.

2.. Akenaton, I noticed a comment from you that I entirely agree with.

3. Comparing this lot to Th*tcher's tenure is to forget how bad it was, and most importantly, how it was to a plan rather than Camerom's well intentioned but stupid sticking plaster approach.

4. Hunt in charge of The NHS? A friend commented the other day that he had no idea Murdoch had diversified into private healthcare.

Just wanted to get that last bit in before a telly comic takes credit for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

We have a black card economy where the richest are exempt from tax.

I think its pretty obviious when a socialialist govt. does get elected in England - they get the riot act read to them and told not to do what need s to be done or there will a right wing coup. That Spycatcher book really did lay it on theline who runs England. And democracy doesn't really come into it.

Watergate would never have happened in England. The corrupt bastards are never called to account.

What needs to be done is to give the queen and her mates a salary of a million quid. take their wealth and get those people who sit in the dragons den and and can recognise a decent business idea to invest the money. Run the rotyal estates and art collections as businesses. Provide decent housing and healthcare for everybody.

Should get the economy moving. But will it happen, will it buggery...
You wanted an alternative to kisssing the bums of the toffs, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:12 AM

Get out of the EEC. Then we would be free to subsidise manufacturers, in order to provide employment for people. The inability to encourage industry or investment in jobs, by means of financial support, or reduced outgoings, like business rate rebates, among others, is a serious restriction on our ability to increase manufacturing, and thereby employment in the UK.
Many of the closures blamed on Thatcher, and her inheritors have been brought about at the behest of the EEC. The almost total destruction of our fishing industry is a direct consequence of selling them down the swanee, as part of the price paid to join this association of fiddlers, and overpaid bureaucrats. Same organisation hasn't had their acounts signed off for about 10 years. If it was business it would be closed down.
At least Thatcher managed to obtain a rebate of part of our contributions, which TB later gave back. Who then is the betrayer of British industriy, and interests?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:44 AM

Rents ARE too high, and property not affordable even for well paid professionals.
There has never been such a housing crisis.
Why are there so many less homes than people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: stallion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:24 AM

Wasn't rounding on anyone in particular,
Nothing seems to have worked effectively, I think the political system has to change. On the one hand a truly free market at it's basest level of supply and demand but there are to many inbetweeners wanting a cut. Rents are too high in the UK, killing high streets, sucking money out of the economy in rent support on dwellings, reducing peoples disposable income, increasing wages. Not the only problem but a large one. On the other the chinese model, it seems to be working (ah but only for a few!) I wonder why that Russia and China took so readily to capitalism without a meaningful democracy? Was it because they had a track record of corrupt dictatorial institutions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM

If you mean me, no.
I agree about the importance of manufacturing.
Which political philosophy would most industrialists and entrepreneurs favour for them to prosper and succeed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: stallion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:25 AM

Apologise for not reading all the posts and this might already have been said but wishing a horrendous death on Maggie Thatcher isn't really on my mind in spite of me and my family suffering desperately because of her governments policies. But then I couldn't see the point of hounding an 80+ years old Pinochet and the 80+ year old former Nazis, however we should concentrate on Robert Mugabe's regime, only one should be careful what is on ones wish list as it may be replaced with something worse. I think the answer to the pinochet Nazis thing, apart from the fact they were conspirators to murder, is for people to get closure by apparent justice and the same is for Thatcher, whilst Pinochet and the Nazis killed a lot of people I never knew those people but I did know lots of people who had their houses repossessed and one person that killed himself because of it, we only managed to hang on to our house by a substantial gift from a family member, we lost our business, income, self esteem, we hit the absolute pits, pay dropped by 60%, I was working my arse off with three kids and still getting free school meals. So with the death of Thatcher I will get closure on a difficult, stressful hard part of my life that didn't right itself til labour got in, and was fine until the greedy pals of thatcher threw the spanner in the works.
On this thread I have read people claiming to be capitalists free marketeers, fi I say, they are Fascists. A free labour market to the capitalist/Fascist is the right to fire anyone at will for no good reason, whereas I could probably stomach that if they would accept that the working people had the right to withdraw their labour for no good reason without the union funds being sequestrated, ah you see that is where capitalism falls down it has to rig the labour market, in fact it rigs all markets, libor insider trading, lobbying political figures, do me a favour you defenders of a morally corrupt system admit you're all armchair, I'm alright Jack, fascists!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

Didn't realise you were in the government, Don....? What is it you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 05:55 AM

So show me an alternative with clearly expressed policies and some clue as to how they will be funded.

Labour is making all sorts of vague promises to "deal with" this and that, but not a word about HOW, and even less about WHERE THEY'LL FIND THE DOSH!

Put 'em in power and they'll fall back on the old ways and try to borrow their way out of debt. I can attest to the fact that that doesn't work, as can anyone who has taken out a "consolidation" loan.

Bottom line,....Labour will consolidate this country to bankruptcy.

We're better off putting our energy into changing the way the government we've got conducts business, and that can only be done by a sufficient number of us getting inside the system.

So you stand on the sidelines and shout if you must. I'll stay inside and push.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 05:45 AM

And a culture secretary whose previous job included closing down Remploy. Jeez.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:35 AM

A climate change denier in charge of energy.
A woman who has opposed most equality measures as equality minister.
An anti-abortionist with a proven record of selling out to big money in charge of the NHS.

Oh what a fine upstanding body this government is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:54 AM

'
Although I seem to be regarded as being about the bottom of the mudcat "food chain'

you and me kid! I was trying to decide whether to classify myself as contemporary folk music or as a living legend for mahogany folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:35 AM

I think you have that about right Al.

Although the hypocrisy of New labour ....and to some extent old labour was evident, to call oneself a supporter of "real" socialism and then vote Tory, takes a very special twist of mind....or the ability to lie through ones teeth.

Although I seem to be regarded as being about the bottom of the mudcat "food chain", I never lie(knowingly), nor have I ever voted Tory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 02:25 AM

Well Don - the alternatives are very stark.

As some charcter in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy put it - we are America's street walker. Really that seems to take care of the options on foreign policy. Wilson was the last PM to tell America to get stuffed (over Vietnam remember - Heath wanted a couple of battallions in there, not just cheering from the sidelines (his words)) And economically - we paid for it.

The MI5/MI6, whoever they are, who subverted democracy and got Thatcher elected (remember Spycathcer) - they seem to go untouched , whatever regime is in charge.

I was remonstrating with a young Trot who was doing some kind of protest one time , and he said call it Labour or Conservative, Clap or VD, its all the same!   And after Blair and WMD's - I can see his point.

And keith may be right. Perhaps Labour would have closed all those coalmies, and the steel industry, and every thing that supplied those industries, and left the posh twits in charge of the car industry - I saw that last from the inside. Labour might, okay probably WOULD have done all that, albeit not with such sadistic relish - and crminalising and abusing the working and dependent classes. ( on your bike, and Peter Lilly's Gilbert and Sullivan parody about disabled folk and unmarried mothers - oh how we laughed! - anyone?)

However I can't imagine Labour doing those things without attempting some regeneration of the areas, help for families who had lost a source of income that had held communities together for two hunderd years, some compassion, moving big government offices into the areas - not just tax breaks for cunts like Michael Caine.

I repect your choices Don. But they're your choices. If you had been taking care of a disabled wife since 1976 like I have - I don't think they would have been your choices. The view is different from the bottom of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM

""You shouldn't sneer at a man for his profession.""

I don't sneer at him for his profession, but by the same token I feel there is a case to be made that a man who posts extremist views advocating revolution and wishes a long and painful death on another human being is somewhat of a disgrace to that profession.

Added to that, a specialisation in copyright law, would hardly bring a deep and abiding understanding of the problems of the poorest in society.

Richard Bridge, for all his protestations of socialist ethics, is not and never was a member of that section of the population, and is in fact the epitome of the New Labour shit hurling from the sidelines brigade.

I am doing more to try to temper the actions of the party I voted for by constantly challenging my MP, who is somewhat of a rebel, and reminding her that the votes of people like me will be needed in 2015 and will not be forthcoming if we are not listened to.

I don't think Mark Reckless is going to be frightened of losing Richard's vote, which he never had in the first place.

You will no doubt have gathered that I am on the far left wing of the currently ruling party, and doing my best to drag others in that direction.

If there is ever another SOCIALIST party I shall vote for it, but I'm afraid anybody who thinks that party will arise from the current Millipede crowd of incompetent cowards, is definitely backing the wrong horse.

So howsabout all you genuine socialists getting together and producing something I can vote for.



Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:04 PM

well of course you're absolutely right Keith. There is a disturbing similarity between Conservative and New Labour. However, I do think that Labour has a better record on recognising the human factor when it comes to policies and how they are implemented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:18 PM

"So you allowed yourself to be co-opted into the biggest group of arrogant, ignorant opinionated arseholes on the planet, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all real life experience, and decided that was the measure of Tory voters across the board?"

No - but I had plenty of insight on how the party machine works on a branch, constituency and county level, and we were politically active as you might expect being guided by a chap like Nick (who I really liked, despite being politically miles apart from him). Allowed myself to be co-opted? No way, I worked to being co-opted because I was interested in politics, even at that tender age. Shine on, when you're canvassing for a tory on a rough estate full of angry people being hit the hardest you can either listen and learn or turn the other cheek, and life is for learning.

To think you get a skewed viewpoint of being a branch committee member, activist and someone actually interest in politics at 16 is nonsense; my opinions are based around doing and learning, talking to politically active people and politicians and are not the result of some indoctrination I was helpless to resist.

Shine on, why am I justifying myself to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 08:41 AM

Raise income tax, and recover the cost of NHS treatment given to those who do not qualify for said treatment.
The NHS writes off thousands of pounds per annum, which it deems unrecoverable. This is unpaid bills for NHS treatment given to non EEC citizens.
There are many things like that, which could be tidied up, which would help our budgetary shortfall
Governments should concentrate of running a tight ship, and leave the social engineering legislation, for less fraught times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:26 AM

Richard, if a different party were in power or coalition, they would also be cutting.
Labour has cut those same services in the past.
True?
No money. Vast debt. Few options.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:03 AM

Sorry I hadn't meant to seem moderate.

Of course British industry was in a tailspin after the war. American capital got off its ass, and recapitalised in turns Europe, Japan, and now unforvivably the Peoples republic of China.

So the SS guards who did foryour family Mike, retired with a better pension than the guys like my Dad who liberated the death camps.

Remember how everybody wanted a a volkswagen and a grundig tape recorder in the 1950's. Whilst in Engand British Leyland factories managed with 60 year old track, and the upper classes fretted about about keeping their estates together and the ridiculous wages domestic servants were asking.

Doesn't mean to say it was right, Don. Doesn't mean to say that a government who colluded and speeded up this process was right, morally untouchable. Doesn'r mean it was inevitable.

As Sir John Harvey Jones said in the year Thatcher sent 28% of manufacturing jobs to the wall - most of those jobs were in good viable businesses.

lets just get its straight. Richard and I are singing from the same hymn sheet on this one. I suspect as a lawyer you get to see all the repossessions and fuck ups that Thatcher and her little short sighted shopping basket have perpetrated. You shouldn't sneer at a man for his profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:58 AM

Don - we are already seeing restrictions on NHS treatment due to budget cuts. We are already seeing privatised parts of the service getting priority over parts still publicly owned. We are already seeing those unable to work being deprived of support. Plans announced only this week allow cuts of up to 71% in benefits if those unable to work fail to adhere to "back-to-work programmes".

Open your eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

""3. The poor schmucks who work their socks off to produce the wealth for the valued citizens, if they get sick, can choose. Go without treatment, or starve!!

After all, they're just indolent losers who don't have the ambition to join the seven zero elite.
""

You just make yourself look stupid by trying to conflate the situation in the USA where the poor are allowed to go without sufficient food or medical care, with the situation in the UK where they are supported and will continue to be so, unless of course you get lucky and Millipede gets into power.

Then you will see the country go downhill.

A coalition is the right government for this country right now, and your friends in the so-called "Labour" party could have been a part of it, but they wanted the Tories to get all the blame for what has to be done, so they scuttled away and now content themselves with hurling shit from the sidelines.

And you have the nerve to tell me I voted for the wrong side.

I can take that with equanimity from Al and Pete, who at least suffered loss from the disintegration of Steel and Mining, though I disagree that Thatcher presided over anything more than the final stage of a long established decline. I can take it from them because I respect their sincerity of belief in what they say, and the comparatively moderate tone of their posts.

What I cannot and will not take at face value are the rantings of a bitter, twisted champagne socialist, who never suffered the loss of the contents of his wine cellar, let alone any real hardship.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:54 PM

""I was in the Young Conservatives once (co-opted onto the committee by Nick Robinson, now BBC political correspondent), and what I saw went against the grain for me personally. I didn't like the dismissal of huge swathes of the populace as sponging scum, the myopic adherence to nuclear weapons, an appalling sense of entitlement because of wealth and a wider sense of misanthropy that even included the dealings they had with each other.""

So you allowed yourself to be co-opted into the biggest group of arrogant, ignorant opinionated arseholes on the planet, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all real life experience, and decided that was the measure of Tory voters across the board?

That puts you firmly in the Richard Bridge camp of left wing thought, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all knowledge of the reasons why people choose not to vote for the long list of Labour crooks, weasels and incompetents who have fucked up everything they touched since Wilson won in 1964.

The last chance we had to vote for a socialist government vanished with the death of John Smith.

I have only the choice of two Tory parties, and I would rather try to make a difference to the real one by getting involved, than join Millipede's ersatz Army of incompetent twerps.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:59 PM

I don't have any hatred or opprobrium for Keith and Mike - they aree good men and valued friends.

They obviously disagree with me and you Richard. But so do thousands of other people.

They haven't seen what we have seen, and in a way - they're lucky. I sort of envy them. If you didn't witness what Thatcher did to this country from the bottom in society - you didn't have a ringside seat to one of the nastiest episodes in this country's history.

Not as messy as the Black Death - but quite as many victims, and the country's industrial heart ripped out for corrupt profiteers and asset strippers - as surely as if done by one of Henry VIII's executioners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

right enough -people here generally don't listen to that crap. however enough of us do vote in a way that allows governments to pursue policies that are not that dissimilar. republican-lite - tories, with the other main parties not much better.


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