No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:14 AM



Err, Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder? Art Tatum? Blind Lemon Jefferson? ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:53 AM

.......& un-capoed, how could one achieve a piece in B#?

On guitar, what finger shapes?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM

It'd be a great shame if this thread disappeared.

Is there still a coffeehouse scene in the U.S., or anything like it? You should write a book, Don, if you don't mind me saying so.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

Jack, judging from the web sites you linked to, I would say that the type of coffeehouses that prevailed in my area during the late Fifties and through the Sixties, were quite different.

For one thing, the owners or proprietors of the coffeehouses were generally not especially interested in folk music per se. And some of the earlier ones hadn't planned on having entertainment at all. The Café Encore, which was the first one in Seattle, was little more than a hole in the wall. Seating capacity (tables and chairs) for about twenty-five people at the most. The fellow who opened it was from New York was setting up an antique shop in Seattle, and discovered that there was no place in Seattle where he could get a cup of espresso. So he saw a business opportunity and opened a coffeehouse in a small area next to his antique shop. You could get a variety of coffees, teas, and chocolate drinks there, along with pastries and such. He hadn't planned on entertainment at all, and a few singers began dropping in sporadically and singing a few songs. He didn't pay anything, it was strictly tips, and he tolerated them because the patrons seem to enjoy the singing. Certainly not any kind of folk center or folk club.

The Place Next Door was opened by the Bob Clark, the owner of an art film theater who managed to get a lease on the store-front next to the theater. With tables and chairs, there was ample seating space for a good seventy or eighty people. His idea was to turn it into a combination coffeehouse/art gallery. He was shooting for a sort of artsy-Bohemian atmosphere, dressed informally but neatly in dark slacks, red short-sleeved shirt, and beret, and he normally had a mustache and neatly trimmed goatee. The inside of the Place was decorated with an abstract mural along one wall, and the wall opposite was covered with pale yellow cloth lighted with an array of spotlights where he planned to hang the "paintings of the month" by local artist, all for sale.

An acquaintance of mine who had been all over the country and was a devotee of coffeehouses suggested to him that a great adjunct to drawing people in would be a "folk singer in residence," especially on weekends. I had just finished doing a television series called "Ballads and Books" on a local educational station, and he recommended that Clark see if he could hire me. I agreed, and wound up singing there on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings off and on for a couple of years. But except for occasional guest sets by other singers, and a period of several months when Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I had formed a duo, I was the only "official" singer. Although when I was elsewhere doing concerts and such, he would hire another singer.

If I felt I was growing stale there, I would recommend another singer to Clark, take a breather for a few weeks, then either do a series of concerts at colleges in the area, then move to another coffeehouse for awhile. Singing perpetually at one place can lead to overexposure, so it's a good idea to disappear to somewhere else every now and then.

Each coffeehouse had its own character, but with a few exceptions, each one had a particular "singer in residence" at any given time, although other singers would drop in and do guests sets. But this was not something that happened every night, at least until there were so many singers around that they were jostling each other at the door. One coffeehouse (Pamir House) solved this problem by hiring several singers. Three or four might be up in front of the audience together, and it was next to impossible to control a set or series of songs. We'd sort of "wing" the program, singing separately and together. Very informal. Like singing at a party or songfest.

By the way, Pamir House didn't start out to be a coffeehouse. He had intended it to be an Indian restaurant (a Pamir house was one of the many inns or wayside refuges centuries ago along the Silk Road through the arduous Pamir Mountains in eastern Afghanistan), but a group of Indian exchange students at the University of Washington dropped in en-masse one evening, ate there, and subsequently declare the place a disaster area! So to cut his losses, the owner decided to open it as a coffeehouse, and began hiring folk singers, one of whom was me.

A similar situation was El Matador. The owner papered the walls with bullfight posters and other bullfighting accoutrements and sent out a call for a flamenco guitarist to entertain. No joy! Someone told him that the nearest thing to a flamenco guitarist in town was me. I could play several classic guitar pieces and three flamenco pieces, but that was just a sidecar to my singing of British Isles and American folk songs and ballads.

There were several other coffeehouses around here as well. Some discovered that if they were to make a go of it, they had to have entertainment, and one person with a guitar was about as economical as they were going to find, so folk singers, who were proliferating at the time, were a natural.

As I said, the owners of the various coffeehouse were far less interested in folk music than they were in drawing people into their establishments and selling them expensive coffees, teas, and pastries, but having someone in the place who would come out and sing for about thirty-five or forty minutes every hour throughout the evening worked out quite well, because the places were generally packed on weekends.

And they were great places for people like me to hone their skills before audiences in preparation for doing concerts and other more lucrative and prestigious engagements, while at the same time, earning a bit of money. In Seattle, anyway, the coffeehouse owners paid a set fee regularly. In some areas, there were what they called "basket houses," where the patrons tipped the singers, but that died very quickly in Seattle. On any given night, they couldn't automatically assume that they would have any singer or singers there at all! And those who did show up usually knew four chords, one strum, and a half-dozen songs learned from Harry Belafonte records.

Although nobody got rich at it, coffeehouse singing in Seattle was a regular job. And some of them, such as The Place Next Door, were pretty much like non-alcoholic night clubs. Rather than a jazz group or pop singer as regular entertainment, they had a resident "minstrel."

This is getting kind of long for a Mudcat post (but it does help bloat Josepp's thread a bit). A really comprehensive run-down of the "coffeehouse scene" would take a book. But I hope this answers most of your questions. Feel free to ask more if you wish, and I'll try to supply answer if I can.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

Cool, Smokey. Thanks.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

:-)
Click

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM

Good idea. Guess what I found. You too, huh?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM

"No, no, forsooth!"

Uh.. I'll dig out the crumhorns..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM

No, no, forsooth!



From: GUEST,999 The Final Frontier
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

BS: The Mother of all BS threads       40336* d


Of course, there's not much chance of that if you don't read your own thread, is there.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

Must get to 425 posts...m-m-must...g-get...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM

I could swear that Mr Happy actually used a CAPON.

Seriously though, John, in your case try using C shapes with the capo at the 12th fret.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:46 AM

On guitar, either when accompanying my songs, or with others, I frequently use a capot.

I suppose for English music you need to use a capote anglaise?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM

Perhaps the abusive Troll was right! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM

Yes Jeri - truly the Mudcat can be a source of great enlightenment.

I print off all the pages, dip them in beeswax, twist them and use as tapers to light my way thru the room of ignorance. I'll let Mr J have some.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999 The Final Frontier
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

BS: The Mother of all BS threads       40336* d

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

400!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

Welcome to the mosh pit.



401

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:49 AM

?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: s&r
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:32 AM

I just read that as carrot


Stu

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

On guitar, either when accompanying my songs, or with others, I frequently use a capot.

If I wanted to sing or play a tune in B#, which capot position[s] & fingering shapes would be best?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

j, everyone should have something important in their lives to keep them going. Glad yours is something so attainable. You can add this to your list of accomplishments.

Don't set your sights so low. Go for 1,000.

As backwards as it seems, I believe the fact that people keep posting to this thread bothers you. I've seen evidence elsewhere that you can be a pretty smart guy. Does it not seem odd to you that you're attempting to irritate other people by doing something that mainly irritates you?

Don't forget to count this post.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM

Ever tried changing hands?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:16 AM

Must make 400 posts...must...make...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

Will this thing ever die?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:43 PM

It seems quite rare to see a UK folk/acoustic venue which doesn't involve beer. I've always thought that a great pity. Not that I've anything against sensible drinking, but I'm not convinced it particularly makes for either quality performance or discerning listening.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

We do have places that seem to be like the US "coffeehouse" over here, but they have looser links to the folk scene than I see described on Mudcat.

Tchai Ovna, Glasgow
Forest Cafe, Edinburgh

Don, are either of those much like what you're talking about?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM

10 more to go.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:12 PM

Don: "As far as politics and other issues are concerned, I'm perfectly game to discuss things with those with whom I disagree. It often prompts me to recheck and re-examine my position—and I hope it prompts them to do the same...."


Absolutely 'Fair enough!!'

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

". . . in our music, there is a 'truce', and a unification with other artists. . . ."

Fair enough. And I would like to hear your story and about your singing partner.

As far as politics and other issues are concerned, I'm perfectly game to discuss things with those with whom I disagree. It often prompts me to recheck and re-examine my position—and I hope it prompts them to do the same. But where I draw the line is when the person with whom I am discussing treats me with contempt and addresses me as if I were feeble minded or totally uninformed—or who, in the process of the discussion (and usually as a diversionary debating tactic) tries to attack my moral and ethical character and/or that of my family.

If we can stay out of that mucky swamp and discuss things civilly, then I'm perfectly game. Okay?

So—tell me about your singing partner.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:37 AM

Hi Don, Yes, I know the difference between a coffee house and coffee shop!....and yes, not only have I played a few, a few years ago, I met my musical partner in one, on stage, where he was both reading poetry, and playing some of his stuff. I was invited to play there, because I had just arrived back in town, and one of the people who ran it, thought it would be a surprise for them for me to pop in and do some original stuff. I played right before intermission, and then during intermission, I was asked to stay, and see if there was more time, and go on again. At the end of the intermission, this guy gets on stage, and starts reading some of his stuff, somewhat reminiscent of a Lenny Bruce, or Jack Kerouac. So I listened, to see if he had anything really cool to say. I will say he had great images, though less substance of the two aforementioned! I was told that there wasn't going to be enough time for a second 'round', so I packed up my stuff, and was headed out the door, but paused to listen to his stuff....When he started playing, I pulled out my guitar, and just followed him, from the back of the room, near the door...then figured, 'What the hell...', and walked up on stage, and as I passed behind him, while he was playing, I said lightly, "Keep playing", and accompanied him on stage, for the rest of his set. We got repeated standing ovations...and were playing for years to come after wards! I got a really cool story about that, but I'll spare you, unless you're interested. He later died, at age 27, which was one mega-bummer being as he was a huge talent, and gifted writer.

Tragic thing, is losing a musical partner, in whom you share those 'in-the-nano-second' thoughts, on all levels, while playing..either, in practice, live gigs, or in the studio. Being as his voice was quite unique, but clear, and full of expression, with a pretty good range, he did most of the singing, while I accompanied him on guitar, (actually, really great guitar), which worked superbly together. A loss!..I still have most all our recordings on tape(reel to reel, or cassette), and have transferred some to disc.

I thought I'd share that with ya', Don,...because in our music, there is a 'truce', and a unification with other artists, of which,, to you, I tip my hat!

GfS

What I meant on my previous post, was sometimes some person is playing in a coffee house, but nobody is even listening, but rather chattering about whatever definition they think 'art' is, but the 'musician' is just there as sort of an 'accessory'..just because its a 'coffee house'.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:23 PM

"That's why every amateur act has these ghastly formulae like 'one fast one, one slow one' that they stick to through the gritted teeth of their audiences. Great fun, but no one will pay you for it, unless you're folk legend."

I agree mate!

But an excellent performer who knows his stuff isn't 'all at one speed' - playing only one style of music at only one speed (usually as fast as possible) does not impress me as much as someone who has a wider more varied repertoire at varied paces.

My dad was a very good amateur Classical Violinist - was 2nd lead when a teenager in a private orchestra before WWII started.

When I had been taking piano lessons for a year or two, and knew everything, I said "Hey Dad, look how fast I can play!"

He stopped what he was doing, smiled to my Mum, got out his violin, set up, and the drew the bow across one string so slowly from frog to tip that it almost was not moving. When it reached the tip, he reversed. The tone was soft, clear and unwavering.

Then he smiled and said "Son, any fool can play fast and loud. It takes Talent, Training, and Practice to play slow and soft."

I have never forgotten, no matter what of the many instruments I dabble with, is in my hands.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:21 PM

Yep, there's a fair chance of that, Lox, though it's also reasonable to say that to reach the standard of either requires a degree of focus and single mindedness that would pretty much exclude the other's style.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:14 PM

Peanuts again anyone?

We've had so many previous threads here on what various people's OPINIONS are about 'what is a chord' versus the formal definition of a 'chord' as a certain number of related notes in certain orders, eg a triad, or first inversion, etc. You can then add other notes above this to form additional variations, and even leave some of the notes out of the played chord, or duplicate certain notes octave wise, or duplicate certain of the notes with different parts of a symphony orchestra or band. The results can have differing names depending on what various set of musos from different cultural backgrounds worldwide want to call them.

You can even call the actual frequencies representing these notes within the chords different names, depending on what scale names you use (there IS a B#).

However, you can also play other combinations of notes, and these are often referred to by the theoretically unwashed as 'chords' too...

So any note (chord tonic) with the third of a certain type of scale above it has another name (dyad), as does the tonic and the fifth (power chord), and you can play the tonic and 7th for a certain effect too, btw...

You can even represent these clusters of related notes on paper by a myriad of representations, some more suited for various instruments or styles of playing or cultural and historical backgrounds.

You can refuse (or by means of various unfortunate human frailties be unable) to learn any of these terms, but still use the forms known to others before you were born and make music yourself.

But:

Only a very narrow minded selfish bullying type of relatively uneducated person who refuses to care about the opinions of others in a society around him will insist that ONLY THEIR OPINION counts for anything, then abuse many of those who join with an opinion that varies from his, in a subsequent discussion.

There's a term for THAT in Psychiatry too!

OP - Just trying to 'start a discussion'? Bullshit!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

"Understood Lox, yes, and both would have considerable difficulty reproducing the other's output."

Well one thimg I can say is that they would probably find it easier reproducing each others work than most of us would find it reproducing either of their work.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:46 PM

"...unless, of course, you play folk music, where everybody there is sipping on their coffees, and the performer is only there as a token accessory to the room!!!"

I don't know what the coffeehouses are like where you live, GfS, but it was and is far different here.

First of all, there is a big difference between a coffeehouse and a coffee shop. A coffee shop is usually a limited service restaurant or a cafeteria. Self-catered. You pick up your pie and coffee, pay for it at the cash register, and carry it to a table. Or someplace like Starbuck's or Tully's where you sit with your laptop at a table and drink an overpriced latté and use the shop's wireless router to surf the web. Or walk up to a counter, place your order, and walk out with a pint of dark-roasted coffee in a paper cup.

A coffeehouse is something quite different. They go back several centuries. In fact, the first coffeehouse in England was The Angel, which opened, not in London, but in Oxford (not surprising perhaps, because Oxford was a college town and had been since the 1200s). Since great men used to frequent them and engage in bull-sessions about lofty subjects, they were often referred to as "penny universities" because someone could buy a cup of coffee (price, 1¢), sit there and sip it while eavesdropping on discussions of great matters between great minds, and listen to artist and poets talk among themselves about their work. One could get a halfway decent education that way.

The coffeehouses crossed the Atlantic and opened up in places like Boston and Philadelphia, where there, too, they were frequented by artists and writers—and such questionable characters as Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin.

When, in the late 1940s, coffeehouses began opening in New York and (again) Boston and Philadelphia, the same sort of people frequented them as had centuries before. Along with myriads of chess players and—lo!—singers of folk songs! Then they vaulted across the continent and sprang up like mushrooms in places like Berkeley, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. Then, in the late 1950s, Seattle.

Each of Seattle's coffeehouses had its own character. The Café Encore was a hole in the wall, didn't have any regular singers, but counted on singers to drop in, and didn't pay. One sang for tips. It sort of limped along. And whether there was a singer there or not was very off and on. The owner was an antique dealer, and that was his real business.

The Place Next Door was a very nice establishment, was run by the owner of the movie theater next door (hence the name). The theater ran foreign and art films. The adjacent coffeehouse was large and had a stage from which singers performed. It didn't just have a folk singer as a "token accessory to the room."   The stage was small, but it was complete with spotlights and a PA system (not really necessary, because the room had good acoustics). Specialty coffees and teas, lavish pastries, exotic sandwiches, cheese boards, quite up-scale. It was like a non-alcoholic night club, and the singer sang in sets. Maybe seven or eight songs followed by at least a twenty minute, more likely a half-hour, intermission.

When the singer came on, the conversation stopped. If someone clueless person kept babbling, they would be shushed by the other patrons. The owner paid quite well. I sang there every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday through most of 1959 before I went to San Francisco for a few months, then returned to "The Place" where I continued to sing three nights a week, off and on, for several years.

Some of the after-show crowd used to drop in, not just from the theater next door, but after symphony concerts, ballets, or operas, and it was not uncommon to see a few people there in tuxes or formal gowns.

In addition to its being a very nice place to sing, I was frequently hired for other gigs by people who heard me there. Some of those other gigs included concerts at Seattle University, Grays Harbor College, the Port Angeles Centennial celebration, the Port Townsend Arts Festival. . . .

And other coffeehouses in the area tended to follow the pattern set by The Place Next Door. In fact, one coffeehouse (the Queequeg in the University District) had a full-blown stage with lights and PA system (again, not really necessary), and all the tables were oriented so that the patrons faced the stage. Eric Bjornstadt, the owner not only hired local singers on a regular basis, but he would bring singers in from out of town. Rolf Cahn not only sang there for two weeks, he gave workshops and lessons while he was here.

And there were other coffeehouses of this type in Seattle. The Pamir House, across the street and down the block from the Queequeg, that usually had two, three, or four singers going at any one time, swapping songs and doing impromptu duets, trios, etc.. It was more like an informal song fest and the audiences loved it! El Matador on Westlake Avenue, which also used a night club type format. I was singing there one night when Shel Silverstein who was in town that weekend dropped in and did a guest set (he's the cartoonist/songwriter who wrote "A Boy Named Sue").

No. The singer was not just a no-name, nondescript distraction noodling away in a corner. He or she was the reason the audience was there. If all you wanted was to sip on a cup of coffee, there were plenty of coffee shops around that would sell you a cup for (in 1950s-60s prices) 15¢. Why pay 75¢ for a cup of regular coffee? Or $1.85 for a cappuccino? Or maybe $2.25 for a café mocha? No. They didn't come to the coffeehouse just for the fancy libations. They came to hear the folk singer.

And you know what? It's still going on. And in addition to a regular singer or singers, some coffeehouses these days have full-blown concerts on certain evenings or afternoons. And they charge admission. And they're very well attended.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 04:56 PM

Understood Lox, yes, and both would have considerable difficulty reproducing the other's output.

Saying a person who knows his theory can't think innovatively is like saying Lewis Carroll couldn't have invented new words if he had actually known how to read and write

It is indeed, Josepp, but no-one's said that. My point was that it is perfectly possible to be creative without the formal training, not that the training precludes creativity. However, a huge wealth of innovative and influential guitar music has come from exponents with little or no formal training. To me, that proves the validity of that approach without belittling any other.

I agree totally with "If it sounds good, I use it", but I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by "a real chord". They're all real to me, whether or not I've a name for them or I've heard them elsewhere.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM

Just pointing out that the main difference between Williams and the reverend is stylistic.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

///I doubt he'd ever have done that if he'd been formally trained, and yet the effect works beautifully.///

I don't see why it would make a difference. If it sounds good, I use it. I don't care if it's a real chord or not. The only difference is that I know when it isn't a real chord. Saying a person who knows his theory can't think innovatively is like saying Lewis Carroll couldn't have invented new words if he had actually known how to read and write--which, of course, disproves itself.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM

Absolutely, Lox, but I'm not sure I understand your point.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:34 AM

"Then there's this guy who did it his way. Aint music grand? "

But also practised like buggery ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 10:58 PM

Actually, this song is a better example, and is also coincidentally in the key of B#. The more observant will also notice the curious fact that the key's tonic is never once played in the bass. I doubt he'd ever have done that if he'd been formally trained, and yet the effect works beautifully.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 10:15 PM

No, he's English - he practiSed.. like buggery, in fact. Very tasty indeed.

Then there's this guy who did it his way. Aint music grand?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 09:40 PM

OK, Smokey...agreed with most of it
Did this guy practice????   ..and is it tasty?

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM

I suppose I omitted the many players who simply do it for their own amusement and sense of achievement and I didn't mean to denigrate that in any way, but to entertain an audience I think you have to be principally doing it for them, not yourself. Leave your ego in the instrument case.. A good musician never gets in the way of the music.

Practise and continued learning are essential, but there are aspects of both which go way beyond conscious mechanics and harmonic theory. It all depends what you want to achieve. If you want to know everything and be perfect, good luck.. I just want people to enjoy it, though it's nice if they throw money too, obviously. I come from two lines of northern shopkeepers (think Arkwright) and skinflintery is in my blood.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM

Once again:

                The Ten Commandments for Musicians

I AM the heart and soul within you, You shall not imitate other player's licks, or singer's voices, thinking they are better than your heart!

You shall not sing from your heart in vain, nor in vanity.

You shall not make yourself an idol, in your own eyes, nor for anyone else.

You shall not bear false witness to how much you know about anything, therefore blocking new input.

You shall take breaks, and use that time to focus, and not ask people 'Did you like it?' (Besides, you might want to give the audience a break, from putting up with you, for not obeying the first three!)

Honor sound, and your tunings. You can always tell a 'purist', they're always out of tune! It shows arrogance. (See 1, 2, and 3).

Thou shall not murder your partners, by drowning them out! BLEND!! Nor shall you be suicidal, and proud of it!

Thou shall not commit adultery, or wish for it, as a reward for a good gig. When you have that much to learn, your music isn't saying much from the heart! (See 1,2,and 3.)

Thou shall not steal licks, and then announce A 'NEW ORIGINAL SONG' you just wrote. If stealing is in your heart, please don't play, or sing!…Matter of fact, SHUT UP!

Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's ax. The right sound is in your head, so get the right instrument that lets you speak the TRUTH...not that you got a 'prestigious' ax, to impress people, that if you were any good, you'd be able to afford it. (See 1,2,and 3.)

Sub-part B: Thou shall not fear, nor have bad attitudes about sound equipment, nor processors. If you don't think you're dealing with sound, shut up, and don't play!

Thou shall not precede a song with lengthy 'histories' of how you came to write it...just play it. If it is interesting, someone will ask you about it. They came to hear music, not how 'special' you think you are! (See 1,2, and 3.)

Thou shall use anything you need to make the song sound the way you hear it....the audience will be the judge of your 'taste'.

If you play stoned, remember, to YOU the song may FEEL great, even if the notes are all wrong! Learn the discipline of FOCUS instead!

Thou shall PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, so when you perform, you can listen and speak to God, with your heart, and not be 'SELF-conscious', but GOD conscious'. Those who commit the sin of SELF consciousness, shall make mistakes. Your PRACTICE will set you're abilities free! Let you mind and heart be upon God, and let Him play through you. (See 1,2,and 3.) Play to God, thanking Him for HIS gift to you. The audience is only your witness, and they'll think its to them, and then you bring them with you....and remember, WE ARE ONE

Guest from Sanity

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 07:09 PM

"This is what frustrates me about posts that say "why should I ... " or "why do I need ...""

Yep Lox - ignoramuses think they know everything - which brings us back to the way the OP often behaves 'for fun' ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM

I don't think you truly become a musician till you realize that to be one you must continuously learn to be one.

Sitting on ones laurels creates a sense of inertia and the music loses its magic.

The greatest moment in my career as a guitarist was my first chord progression ... "C,D,G" ...

Since then, all the best moments have been new things working and capturing my imagination.

I went through a period of years believing that i was pretty good and playing the same stuff without developing any further or pushing any of my own boundaries and limitations and found myself feeling obese dissatisfied and bored.

I've recently learned the most valuable lesson of all ... to keep learning!

The magic is back and I've become lean and my playing excites me again with each new discovery.

This is what frustrates me about posts that say "why should I ... " or "why do I need ..."

The reality is that we don't really "need" any of it.

Though of course, paradoxically, we all know that we couldn't survive without it ...

but the point is that closing nes mind to new pastures in music is akin to saying "why do I need to see the world - my village has everything I need"

Fair enough ... until you see the world .. at which point you think "yeah, I love my village, but boy the world is extraordinary"

And sometimes, going away for a while helps us appreciate where we grew up all the more.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:51 PM

There is more than one type of 'music'.

1) A canned product, made to a formula, packaged and marketed to a research audience at a price the market will bear. This has been around to a degree for a very long time, but now there are whole industries built on this. It is often bland, and not designed for those of a creative bent, after all, if you open a can of baked beans, you wouldn't want it to taste like liquorice and baby powder one day, would you? Creative and exciting that may be, but not what is wanted.

2) Something one does in the privacy of one's bedroom for one's own personal pleasure. Keep it clean, this is a family show.

3) A mostly harmless form of ego-tripping, where one can show off the results of much personal hard work, often gained thru much exercise of 2) [keep it clean!] a bit among friends, sometimes for small renumeration.

4) A scholarly collection of the outputs of any of the above, preserved unchanged for eternity.

And now we are back to 1), using the products of 2) 3) & 4) but feeling more self-righteous.

If you want to 'educate people about music', thus there is really more than one sort of 'music' you need to be educating people for, to enter an industry like 1), the path is very different from the others, although there is some overlap.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:49 PM

Bloody clueless!!

(Sorry! I just added another post to Josepp's heap!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM

Ahh yes...but the audience will let you know soon enough, if you have taste or not..but still, you gotta' do your homework!...unless, of course, you play folk music, where everybody there is sipping on their coffees, and the performer is only there as a token accessory to the room!!!

GfS