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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM You'd think that history would teach the Palestinians to stop that shit. Israel isn't taking crap from them or anyone....and they DO have the right to defend themselves! That being said, Israel has the capacity to wipe them off the face of the earth..but they don't..a lesson that the Muslim Arabs might look at..but they don't. History teaches us that man never learns from history......especially when you're locked up in a brain-dead, backward quasi-religious mindset. That is NOT to say this is true for all Muslims..just the radical morons who perpetuate this shit! Benjamin Netanyahu, warned President Obama, the first day after he was elected, that Obama had two things he must do, and take care of..one, the economy, and two, Iran....because Israel was not going to stand by, and would launch a pre-emptive strike, against them, if it felt immanently threatened with their nuclear program...a very out front, serious threat, and warning. Any observer of the Mid East should know by now, that Israel is dead serious, and will do just exactly that! To sit there, and be 'appalled' now that this has happened, is evidence of 'not paying attention'. Frankly, I support Israel defending itself. As far as the rest, they should be able to work it out...the roadblocks are NOT coming from Israel! I'll avoid drifting too far, as requested. If you want to debate it, we should go to another, related thread. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM >>Just look at one day's bombing of Dresden<< Thank you for so clearly making my point. If Israel were to do that the US, UN and NATO would have no choice other than to take the arms out of the fanatics perpetrating such a horrible war crime. There did it in the former Yugoslavia, they can do it in the former Palestinian Mandate. Though Israeli perpetrates hundreds of war crimes for every single one that Hamas perpetrates they have yet to cross that line. But given their reaction to the flotilla, I fear that a war crime great enough to make enemies of the whole rest of the World is not out of the question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 PM In the end you have to strike at the civilian killers and just do what you can to minimise innocent casualties. If they were "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far fewer innocent casualties would have been killed. The IDF would appear to be as concerned to avoid civilian casualties as the people who fire those rockets. Not a particularly high priority. The difference being that, since the IDF have far more sophisticated weaponry, and far more of it, the number of civiian casualtiers they have killed is far higher. Hamas do not even claim that their rockets are reprisals for air attacks. Leaving aside the question whether it is correct to identify Hamas as the ricket firers rather than other people out of their control, air attacks are hardly the only way in which Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere have been killed by Israel, in incidents which would be seen as inviting reprisal. Every dead Israeli damages Palestine. Every dead Palestinian damages Israel. That is the bottom line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM it is the Palestinians who have refused to recognize Israel's right to exist. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM Not at all. The PLAUSABLE explaination is that Hamas does all it can to maximise Palestinian casualties, by launching rockets in or near schools and hospitals ( in violation of the Geneva Conventions). If Israel fires back AT THE LAUNCH SITE ( easily determined) they might catch to launcher still there- the alternative would be a massive, unaimed bombardment of the entire area- which would certainly produce a far larger civilian death count. IF Israel wanted to maximise civilian casualties,the nuber killed would be in the hundreds of thousands. Just look at one day's bombing of Dresden. But a long as a state of war exists, there will be casualties- and it is the Palestinians who have refused to recognize Israel's right to exist. Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel- the only Jordanians being killed now are being killed by Palestinians. Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel- the only Egyptions being killed now are being killed by Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM In this case "legal force" is what the people with the biggest guns say it is. No more, no less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM Israel didn't have 1947 borders because Israel didn't exist in 1947. Israel has expanded its borders greatly since 1948, not just in 1967, and it's questionable what right they had in 1948 to the borders they took then. And whether they had the right to "Operation Clean Sweep" (as the ethnic cleansing in 1948 was called), resulting in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees having their homes and lands stolen (in a manner sadly reminiscent of the way many European Jews had their homes and lands stolen just years earlier). People who went on to become the IDF were murdering Palestinians [i]and British soldiers[/i] well before 1948. And vice versa, it must be admitted. The Palestinians had every right to feel betrayed by the Balfour declaration and the 1922 and 1939 White Papers (and the subsequent betrayal of the no-harm clauses) and everything that has followed from it. I agree that at this late date it is time for the Palestinians to give up on the Vernichtung of Israel. Arafat and the PLO did in 1993. Hamas has yet to, and that's wrong. Meanwhile Israel continues to chip away at the West Bank, as recently as THIS YEAR, leaving a pattern like Swiss cheese where the Palestinian parts are the holes. They continue to destroy Palestinian homes for their own ends, as recently as LAST MONTH. The Palestinian leaders have no monopoly on bad faith. Does Israel want peace? They sure as hell don't act like it. The hardliners have been part of virtually every Israeli government since 1948. The nation has just handed off to the hardliners the right to decide who is or isn't a Jew, which is a huge thing because it determines who can emigrate there. It is likely that the Jews allowed to repatriate to Israel are likely to be more and more conservative from now on. The government is likely to grow more, not less, conservative. The arch-conservatives do believe that Israel has a natural right to all of "Judea and Galilee" (their term for what we call the West Bank). While I can't condone rocket attacks on civilians, I certainly can understand the frustration and hopelessness that drives people to make them. Pity Israel's ass-lickers in the west can't understand that as well. Israel hasn't acted in good faith since 1948, and the people who became Israel haven't acted in good faith since at least 1918 (one could argue for much earlier). It's hard to imagine what could drive them to do so now. Until then the problem is indeed intractable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM Lox, "You volunteered support for the Israeli killings without having been solicited" I have only ever supported legal use of force. How can that be so wrong? If you deny that I have never supported any illegal use of force, have the decency to specify it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM >>When Israelis attack Palestinians, they kill some of them. You keep stressing the Israeli superiority, yet ignore the fact that they could kill many more than they do, from the numbers killed and th number that could have been killed.<< I disagree with this. They are killing hundreds for every life they lose. I think that the evidence suggests that they are killing just as many as they think they can technically get away with. Yes, they could use Nukes instead of WP but then the world would HAVE to intervene. The IDF is walking a sadistic and cynical thin line. That is the only plausible explanation for the enormous degree of disproportionate retaliation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,999 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM It was likely a reprisal for the Damour massacre by Islamic Palestinians & Syrians. Hate begets hate. Figured you`d know that, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM Jim, "Do you consider the killing of hostages acceptable in these or any circumstances - yes or no?" It would be easy to say no. That is what my heart says. Hamas says, "We will kill your civilians, and you must not try to stop us or you might kill ours." Human shields are not the same as hostages. Their use is a war crime. In the end you have to strike at the civilian killers and just do what you can to minimise innocent casualties. Straight answer to your question, in these extreme circumstances, some civilian casualties are acceptable. Straight answer from you now. Are the rocket attacks wrong, and should they stop? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 PM Keith, I havent hounded anyone. You volunteered support for the Israeli killings without having been solicited. I solicited everyone including Jim to see if they supported the Palestinian rockets. I have had no "yes" as yet. You have made your position your business unsolicited. You have gone out of your way to support Israeli violnce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM "So, Jim, you support those who seek to maximise death." I suggest you compare the casualty figures before you make such crass statements Bruce. As far as I understand it, the rockets are randomly fired and are incapable of being aimed accurately - the Israelis kill and injure as many as they think they can get away with in the public eye. Don't suppose you'd like to comment on the Sabra and Shatila massacres would you (or add the casualties there to your above calculations maybe)? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM "I regard the Israeli behaviour infinitely worse, given their superior fire power and the indiscriminate way they have deliberately used that superiority on a civilian population. " When Israelis attack Palestinians, they kill some of them. You keep stressing the Israeli superiority, yet ignore the fact that they could kill many more than they do, from the numbers killed and th number that could have been killed. When Palestinians attack Israelis, they kill as many as possible. They kill as many as they can, from all historical numbers. So, Jim, you support those who seek to maximise death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:34 PM "The complication is that they surround themselves with living sandbags, all too many of whom become casualties." Using your own questioning method. Do you consider the killing of hostages acceptable in these or any circumstances - yes or no? I understand the Israelis have been found guilty of using civilians as hostages in the past - do you condemn that, yes or no? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 PM >>"A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates"" And there is a lot who will stop the expanding borders. A lot of Israeli's that do not follow the consertative fanatics << That is true enough Bill. But the fact is that Israeli policy is being run by conservative fanatics. But some people have no problem with punishing all Palestinians for the actions and words of the extremists. They have no problem condemning Palestinian other world leaders for NOT constantly condemning Hamas or The PA or even ordinary Palestinians for not actively stopping the extremists. On the other hand they reward the actions of Israeli extremists with praise and justifications. They employ the strategy that any argument that supports their side is justified, insist that the same standards NOT be applied to their side. It makes discussions with them rather pointless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM Lox, consider the last air strike following the most recent rocket. A Hamas rocket maker and a number of fighters killed. If they were not surrounded by civilians that would be it. Have civilian casualties been independently verified? The Hamas medical training camp that Jim talked about. I know that civilians do die. I hate that but Hamas must share the blame. McGrath, Hamas do not even claim that their rockets are reprisals for air attacks. The opposite actually is true. No rockets, no air attacks, no more killing. Then negotiations might restart. I will say no more about Jim. If you wanted an answer you would ask him straight, but you do not want to put him on the spot, do you Lox? So why bother to start this thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM Keith - one last time I regard the killing of any human being as evil. Do I consider the Palestinian rockets more, or as evil as the behaviour of the Israelis? No neither - I regard the Israeli behaviour infinitely worse, given their superior fire power and the indiscriminate way they have deliberately used that superiority on a civilian population. Do I think the shelling should stop? No I do not, in the present circumstances I think it would be a surrender and the Israelis would regard it as such. The Israelis have a rotten track record when it comes to Arabs in their care. At Shatila and Sabra refugee camps they participated in and quite probably instigated the cold-blooded massacre of somewhere between 850 and 3,500 refugees. I think it would be a total neglect of duty on the part of the Palestinian government to expose their people to such a well-proven risk - anybody here who doesn't? When I have raised this 'incident' in past Keith has skidded round it at a rate of knots and the rest of the Israeli apologists have ignored it. So, while I do not support per se the Palestinian bombardment, as things stand I regard it as very much the lesser of two evils. Keith's question is a loaded one set in terms that cannot be answered honestly with a yes or no - equivalent of my asking him if he still beat his wife, yes or no. Please let that be an end to our dialogue Keith and give others a chance. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:01 PM "Lox, you say I have come out in support of some of the violence, (that committed by Israel.) That is not true." However: "I regard retaliatory strikes against their activists as legitimate self defence." I can understand why you might feel driven to justify violence carried out by the "Israeli Defence Forces", Keith. But I cannot understand why you complicate matters be asserting that when Lox says that you do that, he is lying. Talk about "unprovoked attacks" is self-deception. Every act of violence carried out by either side in this conflict is seen by it as an act of justifiable reprisal for acts of violence carried out by the other side. There is no shortage of acts of violence against civilians, Palestinian or Israeli, which can be seen as justification for such reprisals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM The whole self defence argument is a fallacy. The problem with the rocket firers is that they do not operate from any specific base. They fire from different locations each time. then AFTER they have gone, the IDF fires on Gaza and civilians die. So the bad guys get away to do it again ... hardly an effective form of self defence ... So what other justification is left? Retaliation. Who dies. Children. I have seen mountains of evidence and receive more every day. It isn't hard to find. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM Lox, "Do you support it all or just the very isolated and limited force that is used specifically against the individuals who have fired the rockets?" The rockets are fired by and on behalf of Hamas. I regard retaliatory strikes against their activists as legitimate self defence. The complication is that they surround themselves with living sandbags, all too many of whom become casualties. I have seen no evidence that Israel targets civilians. Lots of hype and hysteria, but no evidence. If you produce any I will out shout you in condemning it. Jim refused to say the rockets were wrong or should stop on the other thread. That is why I am so interested in his response to your question. In your quote, he asks a rhetorical question, the answer to which can only be that the attacks should continue. "what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives" He also said, "Condemning Palestinian retaliation out of context(??) is the same..." He then lists a lot of things that he does not condemn. So he does not condemn the rockets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM On that point Bruce is right to be defensive. It sounds a bit too much like the "protocols" for my taste - though it should be clarified that it is an opinion which I oppose. it is not information that I dispute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,999 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM "Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? " Why not. You expect the Israelis to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM "Israel will not stop until they have occupied the entire west bank and have put the Palestinians into exile or subjugated them as second-class citizens. " LIE! Deliberate misinformation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:09 PM Keith, Is this the comment from Jim that you refer to? "Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? " Its the only specifically relevant comment that I can find. Maybe you could read it as being support for the killing of Israeli civilians, but you'd have to use a bit of creative licence, whereas your comments very specifically support Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians. Lights out and no book! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM Besides Keith, Are you saying that you'll only condemn all the violence if Jim does? Perhaps you'd like to run and tell the teacher that "its not fair"? Why don't you grow up and take responsibility for your own views. Now go to bed without any tea! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM "A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates"" And there is a lot who will stop the expanding borders. A lot of Israeli's that do not follow the consertative fanatics If I was a Palestinian in Gaza ... I certainly would try to negotiate and not follow the current path of the Palestinian consertative fanatics. If I was an Israeli, or if I was Palistinian I would strive for peace, hope and understanding ... I would not fall into the fanatical behive of hate, distrust and revenge. I would forget the past and build for the future. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:00 PM In other words you say it is in self defence and on that basis you support it. Do you support it all or just the very isolated and limited force that is used specifically against the individuals who have fired the rockets? Because killing ciovilians who WEREN'T THE ONES WHO DID IT isn't self defence, its revenge. Revenge is murder cold and cruel and is not any more or less justifiable than that which it avenges. Only a tiny minority of killings of Palestinian civilians have anything to do with actual self defence. 1. You mislead when you talk about self defence. 2. You mislead when you say you dont support it Israeli violence. I stick by my position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM Jim, I was not talking to you. Lox, your OP asked "I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel." Jim has defended it. He has also refused to say it was wrong, or that it should stop. The answer to your question is "YES TO BOTH, JIM." Lox, you say I have come out in support of some of the violence, (that committed by Israel.) That is not true, except that I defend any country's right to act in self defence, so I have to support Israel's anti rocket strikes. How can that make me a bigot and / or a hypocrite? You are just name calling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates" and there are a lot of Americans, including members of the previous government, senior members of the armed forces and fundamentalists in other countries who to some degree feel the same was and publicly say so. If you were in Gaza, oppressed all your life and knew this what would you do? Negotiate or try your best to stop them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM It is pretty self-evident that the only people posting here who actually support and seek to justify the use of violence are those who ostensibly support Israel. It is pretty obvious to anyone who sympathises with Palestinans that the use of violence disprortionately kills and injures them, and damages their hopes of a just solution. It should be equally obvious to those who seek to support Israel that, while the numbers of Israelis injured and killed is far lower, the damage that is caused to the future hopes of Israelis by the resort to violence is enormous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM Agreed Lox .... Military solutions are ancient solutions to political problems .... in ridding ourselves of these 'military soulutions' we need to strive for radical political structures. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM Keith - you continue your attempts to return this to a dialogue - please stop it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM Israel will not stop until they have occupied the entire west bank and have put the Palestinians into exile or subjugated them as second-class citizens. More settlements on what is left of Palestinian territory,, destruction of means of livlihood, destruction of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem, and eventual elimination of the Palestinian people from their small remnant of territory. We are witnessing the destruction of a people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:32 PM "As I said before ... if Arabs, and Jews sat down at the table to negotiate and did not see a Jew, or a Muslim facing them, peace and compromise could be achieved. " I agree wholeheartedly. Political problems have political solutions. Military solutions simply create worse problems. They do nothing more than serve as vehicles of their executors arrogance by providing them with a way of getting what they want by force. Force begets force. An eye for an eye is not a maxim or a measurement, it is a prophecy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM I dunno Jack .... The Holy Land has a way of destroying any rationality of thought, humanityt and trust when it comes to peace .... always has. I do believe if fanatics from all sides of the equation did not have their claws into politics, boundries it might be a different story. Fanatics from all religions sow hate, conspiracies and distrust. They always have a nasty, evil way of achieving seats of power in any political organization and aligning themselves next to seats of corporate power. As I said before ... if Arabs, and Jews sat down at the table to negotiate and did not see a Jew, or a Muslim facing them, peace and compromise could be achieved. call me a dreamer ... but that is reality. Until the time comes when we can shake religion from governing our lives we will never see peace in the middle east. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM "The Palestinians have never agreed to peace OR the existance of the state of Israel, with ANY borders." LIE! Deliberate misinformation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM Keith. Jim hasn't expressed support for any of the violence. If he does I will call him out for supporting killing. You have come out in support of some of the violence (that committed by Israel). So you are a hypocrite and a bigot. Teribus, So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza. Right. Now teribus condones the murder of Palestinians in Gaza too. So far the only catters who publicly condone the use of violence are those who support Israeli violence against Palestinians. So to recap, Noone has taken issue with me on the matter of rockets being fired into Israel. No one is supporting or condoning the killing of Israeli civilians or standing up for the right to fire rockets into Israel and kill Israeli civilians. But at least 3 people support and condone the killing of palestinian civilians by Israelis and stand up for their right to do so. Therefore - no argument about the rockets - hence the discussion begins and ends in a few short posts. But there remains a big argument about IDF killing of palestinan civilians - hence the discussion goes on and on. Everyone agrees that the Burmese Junta is BAD Everyone agrees that Mugabe is BAD Everyone agrees that Killing Israeli civilians is BAD but there is disagreemant about whether killing palestinian civilians is bad. In addition, there is disagreement about whether Palestinians deserve to be treated like subhumans or whether they deserve the same human rights as Israelis. The picture gets clearer and clearer with each post. Keep 'em coming folks. Who else wants to stand up for Israelis killing Palestinian civilians. How about Palestinian farmers shot at in their fields? How about Palestinian fishermen shot at in their boats? Is that all justified too? Perhaps we should return to the rockets ... ... anyone suppirt the killing of Israeli civilians? ... no ... ok ... dead end there then ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM True enough Bill. But in this neck of the woods it is generally not applied to both sides. And for this particular conflict, I happen to believe that religiously inspired Israeli expansionism is the main driving force. On the other hand I believe that the main driving force in the conflict with Al Qaeda is Wahabbist fundamentalism directed at the west, funded in major part by the Saud family and their cronies to keep their own population from seeking equity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM So: Israel cannot blockade Gaza to keep those rockets that rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from coming in. Israel cannot target the launch sites of those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched. Hama refuses to exercise it's responsibility to stop those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched. Please tell me what Israel is permitted to do? These rockets, rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel, are a threat and act of war. The Palestinians have never agreed to peace OR the existance of the state of Israel, with ANY borders. If Israel stops all blockades and attacks on Gaza, and the Gazans continue the rockets, will ANY here agree that the Israelis should use those nuclear weapons and destroy Gaza? If not, what does the Israeli posseion of them matter???? Israel has been attacked multiple times, by enemies that have declared they will be satisfied with nothing less than the destruction of Israel. Those nuclear weapons, ( not all of which are in Israel proper) are Israel's ONLY insurance that any attack that destroys Israel will be so costly to the attacker that they will hesitate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM "Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way." I believe this statement can be applied to all parties involved in the mideast problem .... not just Israel. Religious Belief and Violence in the Middle East biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM It is not me saying I am better or as good. Lox started this thread to establish if anyone here justifies the rockets. Jim has previously refused to say they are wrong, or that they should stop. Lox needs that answer. Ask him Lox. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM Keith, Cast out the log from your own eye before pointing out the mote in his. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM Lox, are you sure, "This is important to me as it clarifies that everyone agrees that the rockets are BAD." ? I asked Jim maybe 8 times, "Are the rockets attacks wrong, and should they stop." You try asking him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM >>The point must be made again too, surely, that Gaza is also a democracy ~ which fairly recently held elections ~ and elected Hamas ~ who are the ones firing the rockets: which can accordingly presumably be said to emanate with the avowed and explicit support of the majority of the population of Gaza. Is it not ∴ at least arguable that they have thus brought the IDF retaliation on themselves? Just putting the point for consideration<< If it is a point worthy of consideration then it applies in much greater measure to Israel. The Jews in Israel are a democracy, and many of the settlers near Gaza, not to live peacefully but to claim the land and and to provoke a response. Keeping in mind that large numbers of the Israeli electorate support aggressive action to to expand the state of Israel thinking that though God has promised a greater Israel it is this generation's job to seize occupied land. Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way. The all think that they are Joshua. Blowing the trumpets, tearing down the walls and killing all of the occupants of the land God has promised them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM The problem, Jim, is that Israel can't get peace in exchange for land as long as Israel's opponents aim to completely cancel Israel, there are no boundaries that Hamas recognizes as Israel's home, they just want to destroy Israel as the Arabs Countries and the Palestinians tried to do in 1948 and 1967, to name two important moments, not the only ones. They don't want Israel and a Palestinian State to live in peace. They didn't accept it in 1947, they are not accepting it nowadays. I agree with you that Israel must cede some land that it conquered when Israel won wars against its opponents, but I'd like you to agree with me that this land must be ceded in exchange for peace and mutual recognition. Otherwise, it would happen again what happened when Israel left Gaza, and got in exchange the rockets fired against its civilians from the Gazan territory. Of course, I'm aware that there are many extremists in Israel as well, and I think that keeping building settlements on the land that I hope will become the state of Palestine is unacceptable and blind. But you must have somebody to make a deal with and sign a treaty: Israel is without this counterpart since it was born. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM Roberto "don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967" I agree entirely, and when those conflicts were over the areas in question became occupied territory and a contentuous issue. Since then Israel has sought to expand its sphere of influence and had done so agressively. Whatever past disputes may have been about, it is now about occupied territory, and will only be resolved by recognising that fact. Britain should have learned that fact in Ireland and 88 years later, still hasn't and the issue still hangs like a Sword of Damocles. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:22 AM If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence. - Keith Gets translated to: So the IDF only kills the rocket firer eh? - by Lox Obviously in Keith's hypothetical example yes they do. But come on Lox where's the proportionality in that? If Hamas, or whatever perfectly deniable mushroom splinter group operating under Hamas's jurisdiction, indiscriminately fire rockets at Israeli civilians from Gaza in the hope of killing as many Israeli's as possible. Then the proportionate response surely is for the Israeli's to fire a rocket or an artillery shell indiscriminately at civilians in Gaza in the hope of killing an equal number. If it works for them, as it apparently has since the Israeli's unilateral exit from Gaza, then who are we to complain. Let them get on with it, until maybe, just maybe, they realise how fuckin' stupid they are being. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM There is very little, if any discussion about the responsibility of the Western powers in this dispute - either of their role in manner in which the State of Israel was created in the first place, and in the more recent self-interested washing of hands of the affair, especially by the US which has all along bowed to the economic and political pressure of the friends of Israel. Maybe the solution to the whole affair would be for somebody to discover oil there - that should get things moving in the West! Keith - you and I have had more of our fair share of these arguments - I have no intention of entering into another blind alley discussion with you and nause up yet another thread - I suggest you follow my example and don't try to provoke one. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM Bobad: EVERYONE CONDEMNS THE USE OF ROCKETS AGAINST ISRAEL. What else is there to say on that subject? On the other hand, some people support the use of violence against palestinians. They have their opponents. Hence a discussion. Engage brain - simple point - easy to understand. Obviously easier to stick fingers in ears and accuse the world of being anti semitic. Do you support Israeli use of violence against Palestinians? |
