BS: Hamas steals from UN

Subject: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:55 PM

Source: Jerusalem Post
Feb 4, 2009 13:39 | Updated Feb 5, 2009 0:16
UN: Hamas stole from Gaza warehouse
By BRENDA GAZZAR AND YAAKOV KATZ
Gaza City

Armed Hamas policemen broke into a Gaza City warehouse and took thousands of blankets and hundreds of food packages intended for UNRWA refugees, an official from the relief agency said on Wednesday.
                                                                              
The incident took place on Tuesday after the Social Affairs Ministry tried to confiscate food and other supplies that were being transported to UNRWA's storage facilities and the agency's staff resisted, said John Ging, the organization's operations director in the Gaza Strip.

A few Hamas policemen took 3,500 blankets and more than 400 food packages prepared for distribution from an UNRWA warehouse on Tuesday afternoon, he said.

"They took it under gunpoint," Ging told The Jerusalem Post from the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza City. "My staff had resisted earlier the confiscation of the convoy, as they are absolutely instructed to do... Compliments to them for that, but unfortunately, later, they came and took it by gunpoint.

"We are very upset about this," he said. "This is stealing aid destined for the refugees. We have demanded that it be returned."
The agency has communicated with Hamas officials regarding its demand, but had not received a response as of Wednesday afternoon, Ging said.

"We expect to get the aid back," he said. "This aid is for the refugees, not for anybody else, not for any political parties. This aid was donated to us, through us, for the refuges, and we have to have integrity for the aid effort here in Gaza."

Over the past month the IDF said on several occasions that Hamas had stolen humanitarian assistance designated for Gazan civilians. Wednesday was the first time the UN admitted that such a theft had occurred.

An IDF official said the army noticed such thefts during Operation Cast Lead last month when, despite the fighting, Israel allowed almost 80 trucks a day into the Strip.

Nuaf Atar, a Fatah man captured during the offensive, told the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) that Hamas government officials "took over" humanitarian aid Israel allowed in and sold it, when it was supposed to be distributed for free.

Ging said Wednesday's incident was the first time that Hamas had stolen food or supplies from UNRWA and that he hoped it would be the last.

Ahmad Kurd, the Hamas Minister of Social Affairs, did not deny the aid seizure, saying the UN was giving the aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents.

"UNRWA did not do what it said it would do, and began distributing its aid to groups that tie their activities to political activism," Kurd said.

Hamas spokesman Taher Nunu demanded an apology and said UNRWA was "spreading false news."

Interior Ministry spokesman Ihab Ghussein said the incident occurred because the UN was "storing the blankets in an area not authorized [for distribution]."

Alix de Mauny, a spokeswoman for the European Commission, which contributed $626 million to Palestinian in 2008, said, "We are very concerned, but this is an isolated incident, we hope. We will react accordingly if this develops beyond an isolated incident."
Hamas has distributed $50m. in emergency relief to Gazans and promised additional cash payments in hardship cases.

The Palestinian Authority government is also sending funds.
PA Prime Minister Salaam Fayad said Wednesday his government would donate $600m. to help Gazans rebuild.

Fayad said the money would be channeled through commercial banks directly to recipients, bypassing Hamas, and that he expected to be reimbursed by international donors.

Welfare and Social Services Minister Isaac Herzog, who oversees humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, said the theft from UNRWA was "further proof that Hamas is continuing to make life miserable for the population of Gaza and will use any means to intensify its suffering."

During Operation Cast Lead, "Hamas leaders worried about their own welfare and security while totally neglecting the population," Herzog said in a statement.

Israel would continue to demand that any aid transferred to the Strip be "directed to the welfare of the civilian population only," he said.
                      -------------------------
Comment:
Hamas is supposed to be the organization that was chosen to replace the 'corrupt' Fatah. Some Faustian bargain the Gazans have made.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:19 PM

So, they replaced a hooker with a whore. Next up will be a doxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM

Let's be fair! How can they pretend to be looking after the people if they don't give something away now and then. You have to get your free gifts from somewhere!

Just another day in politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:02 PM

Where's the pro-Hamas folks?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:43 PM

Probably busy divvying up the spoils from the UNRWA warehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:44 PM

Attorney for UNWRA confirms Gunness lies about Israel

In the 700 page report released friday to President Obama, one of the top attorneys for the UNWRA reports that Ging along with Gunness have become 'very' political and biased against Israel.

He also concludes in his report to Obama that UNWRA could shed a whopping 70% of the classified refugee's that they spend 573 millions dollars a year on.

Meanwhile UNWRA does not have money for 2 million "REAL" refugees in Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:21 PM

Toronto Globe and Mail

January 29, 2009

Most people remember the headlines:

Massacre Of Innocents As UN School Is Shelled. Israeli Strike Kills Dozens At UN School.

They heralded the tragic news of Jan. 6, when mortar shells fired by advancing Israeli forces killed 43 civilians in the Jabalya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. The victims, it was reported, had taken refuge inside the Ibn Rushd Preparatory School for Boys, a facility run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. The news shocked the world…. It was certain to hasten the end of Israel's attack on Gaza, and would undoubtedly lead the list of allegations of war crimes committed by Israel.

There was just one problem: The story, as etched in people's minds, was not quite accurate. Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate… The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling ... was adamant: "Inside [the compound] there were 12 injured, but there were no dead." Hazem Balousha, who runs an auto-body shop across the road from the UNRWA school, was down the street, just out of range of the shrapnel, when the three shells hit. He showed a reporter where they landed: one to the right of his shop, one to the left, and one right in front. "There were only three," he said. "They were all out here on the road."

News of the tragedy travelled fast, with aid workers and medical staff quoted as saying the incident happened at the school, the UNRWA facility where people had sought refuge. Soon it was presented that people in the school compound had been killed. Before long, there was worldwide outrage.

…The UN's Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs got the location right, for a short while. Its daily bulletin cited "early reports" that "three artillery shells landed outside the UNRWA Jabalia Prep. C Girls School ..." However, its more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue. Such official wording helps explain the widespread news reports of the deaths in the school, but not why the UN agencies allowed the misconception to linger.

…John Ging, UNRWA's operations director in Gaza, acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school … "I know no one was killed in the school," Mr. Ging said.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:48 PM

Where's ifor?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: DougR
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:33 AM

Hamas stole from the UN? Horrors! And after all the UN has done for them! Ingrates!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:35 AM

I don't think there are any pro-Hamas people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:39 AM

However, considering the lies we were told about who broke the last ceasefire (note: it wasn't Hamas), I'm inclined to take this story from the mainstream media (Israeli media, no less) with a grain of salt until I find out more about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM

Peace, I am not 100% sure of this, but I don't think ifor is a who, but a what. A couple of people have signed in using their the name Guest,ifor or a screen name, signing ifor at the end of the post. I believe Ahkenaton may have been one of those so doing.

ifor may be a group founded during WWI, "The International Fellowship of Reconciliation (IFOR) is an international, spiritually based movement, composed of people who commit themselves to active nonviolence as a way of life,,," this from the website.

They sound good; certainly more peace loving than any of the posters signing "ifor". If they are members of this group, the question then is do they speak for the group.

Just thought I'd put this out as an hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:54 AM

Film footage of the UN school being shelled and photographs of it being hit with white phospherous (children in the compound were killed in this attack)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmT0MjlPpRo

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:25 AM

The argument here seems to be that it's reprehensible to rob a refugee warehouse (which it is), but not to rocket attack it, which the Israelis did.
I seem to remember that one of the acts of the invaders was to blockade Gaza so that essential medicines and food could not be got in; and are not the Israelis still shelling fishing boats, depriving the people of Gaza of food - not to mention the barring of building material, preventing them from rebuilding their destroyed homes? Makes the behaviour of a handful of predatory crooks look pretty small-time, doesn't it?
A Jewish friend from Manchester contacted me recently and told me of the opposition to the Israeli invasion and massacre among the people she knew.
She said, "They're behaving like Nazis and crouching behind the dead of Auschwitz as an excuse" - puts it in a nutshell really - and all for a 2,000 year old myth!
This petition published in The Irish Times puts the facts of Israel's imperialistic behaviour towards Palestine as clearly as anything I've read.
Jim Carroll

Israel's bombardment of Gaza killed over 1,300 Palestinians, a third of them children. Thousands have been wounded. Many victims had been taking refuge in clearly marked UN facilities.
This assault came in the wake of years of economic blockade by Israel. This blockade, which is Illegal under international Humanitarian Law, has destroyed the Gazan economy and condemned its population to poverty. According to a World Bank report last September, "98% of Gaza's industrial operations are now inactive".
The most recent attack on Gaza is only the latest phase in Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people and appropriation of their land.
Israel has never declared its borders. Instead, it has continuously expanded at the expense of the Palestinians. in 1948, it took over 78% of Palestine, an area much larger than that suggested for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947. Contrary to International Law, Israel expelled over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes. These refugees and their descendants, who now number millions, are still dispersed throughout the region. They have the right, under International Law, to return to their homes. This right has been underlined by the UN General Assembly many times, starting with Resolution 194 in 1948.
In 1967, Israel occupied the remaining 22% of Palestine: the West Bank and Gaza. Contrary to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel has built, and continues to build, settlements in these occupied territories. Today, nearly 500,000 Israeli settlers live in the illegal settlements in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), and the number grows daily as Israel expands its settler programme.
Israel has resisted pressure from the international community to abide by the human rights provisions of International Law. It has refused to comply with UN Security Council demands to cease building settlements and remove those it has built (Resolutions 446, 452 and 465) and to reverse its illegal annexation of East Jerusalem (252, 267, 271, 298, 476 and 478). Since September 2000, over 5,000 Palestinians, almost 1,000 of them minors, have been killed by the Israeli military.
11,000 Palestinians, including hundreds of minors, languish in Israel jails. Hundreds are detained without
trial. In addition, Israel is breaking International Law by imprisoning them outside the occupied territories, thereby making it almost impossible for their families to visit them. Every year, hundreds of Palestinian homes are demolished. The Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza lives imprisoned by walls, barriers and checkpoints that prevent or impede access to shops, schools, workplaces, hospitals and places of worship. They are subjected to restrictions of every kind and to daily ritual humiliation at the hands of occupation soldiers and checkpoint guards.
Invasion, occupation and plantation of their land is the reality that Palestinians have faced for decades and still face on a daily basis, as their country is reduced remorselessly. Unless, and until this Israeli aggression is halted, and the democratic rights of the Palestinian people are vindicated, there will be no justice or peace in the Middle East. Israel's 40-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza must be ended.
The occupation can end if political and economic pressure is placed on Israel by the international community. Recognizing this, the Palestinian people continually call on the international community to intervene.

WE, THE SIGNATORIES, CALL FOR THE FOLLOWING:
The Irish Government to cease its purchase of Israeli military products and services and call publicly for an arms embargo against Israel.
The Irish Government to demand publicly that Israel reverse its settlement construction, illegal occupation and annexation of land in accordance with UN Security Council resolutions and to use its influence in international fora to bring this about.
The Irish Government to demand publicly that the Euro-Med Agreement under which Israel has privileged access to the EU market be suspended until Israel complies with International Law.
The Irish Government to veto any proposed upgrade in EU relations with Israel.
The Irish people to boycott all Israeli goods and services until Israel abides by International Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:08 AM

"I seem to remember that one of the acts of the invaders was to blockade Gaza so that essential medicines and food could not be got in; "


You mean like the night vision equipment and mircoswave ovens that they tried to bring in during the daily 3 hour Israeli cease-fires ( to allow food and supplies into Gaza)? Or do you mean the rockets, morters, and armamant that they smuggled in, instead of the "essential" medicines and food?

You confuse REGULATED supplies with unlimited- The supplies that were inspected and shown to be food and medicine were allowed in- But Hamas still smuggled in arms instead of food. THAT shows what the priorities were.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:15 AM

UN halts aid to Gaza, cites Hamas disruption
         

– 4 mins ago Video:UN accuses Hamas of confiscating Gaza aid CBC.ca


… JERUSALEM – The U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees said Friday it has halted all aid shipments into the Gaza Strip due to interference by the ruling Hamas militant group.

The U.N. Relief and Works agency said it made the decision after Hamas personnel intercepted an aid shipment for the second time this week.

In a statement, UNRWA said 10 truckloads of flour and rice that had been delivered into Gaza on Thursday were taken away by trucks affiliated with the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Earlier this week, Hamas police took thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents.

UNRWA said the suspension would remain in effect until the aid is returned and the agency receives credible assurances from the Hamas government that such thefts will end. There was no immediate reaction from Hamas.

UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said the agency would continue to distribute aid from its existing supplies in Gaza, but that stocks were running low.

"There is enough aid for days, not weeks," he said. Complicating the situation, he said the agency has not been able to import plastic bags used for food distribution, and that existing supplies will run out early next week.

In Gaza, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum called UNRWA's decision "unjustified."

He said Hamas supports UNRWA's work but believes the agency gives some of its aid to groups attached to Hamas' rivals.

He urged UNRWA "to put an end to using aid for political means, and to distribute it to all the needy equally."

Some 80 percent of Gaza's 1.4 million people rely on the U.N. agency for food and other support, and U.N. officials say the need for aid has increased since Israel ended a military offensive in Gaza last month.

The offensive, meant to halt years of Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel, killed nearly 1,300 people and caused widespread destruction.

Also Friday, Israel deported 15 activists from an aid ship it intercepted en route from Lebanon to Gaza. The activists, all Lebanese and Syrian citizens, were deported overnight, the military said.

Three others — two Indians and a Briton — remained in police custody pending deportation, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said.

The ship had attempted to reach Gaza on Thursday in defiance of an Israeli blockade. Israel intercepted the vessel and towed it to Ashdod port, where it remained docked Friday. It was not immediately clear when the boat would be allowed to sail.

Israel and Lebanon are officially at war. Israel said it was concerned about the ship's cargo and called the boat a "provocation." Israel, which is enforcing a naval blockade aimed at Gaza's Hamas rulers, has allowed several similar aid ships into Gaza and has turned several more back, but had never before boarded or detained one.

While the boat remained docked, some 1,000 units of donated blood were quickly unloaded and sent into Gaza, military spokesman Peter Lerner said. The rest of the supplies on board were being examined and would also be sent to Gaza, he said.

Israel imposed the blockade after Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007. Since then, it has allowed in little more than basic humanitarian supplies.

Despite Israeli concerns, no weapons were found on board. The organizers of the aid ship, Lebanese political and human rights activists, said the cargo comprised of medicine, food, toys and basic humanitarian supplies such as mattresses and blankets.

Israel unilaterally halted its devastating Gaza operation on Jan. 18, and Hamas followed with an announcement that it would hold its fire.

Sporadic fighting has persisted. On Friday, Gaza militants launched two more rockets into Israel, the military said. There were no injuries, but it illustrated the fragility of the Gaza cease-fire. Late Thursday Israeli forces on the Gaza-Israel border shot and killed a Palestinian who the military said approached the fence armed with a grenade.

Egypt's attempts to mediate a long-term cease-fire have not succeeded so far. Hamas is demanding that Israel open Gaza's blockaded border crossings as part of any agreement, but Israel says it will not turn the crossings over to Hamas control. It also wants international guarantees that weapons smuggling into Gaza will stop.

The attempts to negotiate a cease-fire are unfolding in the shadow of Israel's national election on Tuesday, as Israel's leaders compete over who can take the toughest stand against Hamas.

New polls Friday showed the likely winner would be hard-line Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who says the current government ended the Gaza operation too early, without causing enough damage to the Islamic group.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

"You mean like the night vision equipment and mircoswave ovens"
No, I mean the complete blockade on medical equipment, drugs, bandages and food - at least, according to the Reuter report that appeared in my paper and the television news - on the same day that the rocket attack was reported. No supplies, 'regulated' or otherwise were allowed through, nor are building supplies at the present time.
While we're on to anecdotes about bad behavior:
Last year (The Sunday Times), in one of its many incursions into Gaza the Israeli army took over a Palestinian house as a lookout post.
The three soldiers billeted there were treated with extreme courtesy, given drinks, food and blankets by the Palestinian occupants (more or less the same hospitality I have always found when visiting an Arab country), and in return for that hospitality the soldiers shat in every cooking utensil in the house.
None of which addresses the fact that the Israelis are illegal invaders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:09 AM

Care to provide the source for that? ANYONE can make up stories, especially to prove what they want to believe.

As for illegality, the deal was "land for peace": Area bombardment anti-personnel Rockets do not qualify in my neighborhood as peaceful- perhaps they do in yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Additional to my post at 12:41AM, wherein in I posit that ifor is a group, not a person, from this mornings post at Israel Moves In:

From: heatherblether - PM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:18 AM
[Body of Post]
ifor

If I am correct, then I wonder does Heatherblether speak for herself or for the group? Or does she pretend to speak for the group?
Does Guest,ifor (s) speak for themselves or do they speak for the group? Or do they pretend to speak for the group?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM

It is indeed unfortunate that Israel and Egypt are still blockading Gaza, and only allowing essentials like food and medical supplies in. However, Hamas' record of importing rockets, mortars and other weaponry rather than more peaceful items certainly provides some justification for the fact that the Israelis and Egyptians are disinclined to completely open the border crossings.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM

'Care to provide the source for that'
Came up as a Reuter report in the Irish Times three weeks ago - not the 'Jerusalem Post', I'll grant you, but......
You have the facts of the occupation from the petition - disclaim it if you can, (it came along with a 'before-and-after map). But even if Israel had a cast-iron reason for its occupation, there can be no excuse for the systematic mass-murder of the civilian population, one third of those having been children.
Every tyrant in history has claimed 'defence of the fatherland', 'motherland', 'homeland', 'realm'... whatever, to excuse such behaviour - Israel's reason appearing to be 'God's chosen people fighting for 'The Promised Land' - as I said, a 2,000 year old myth. In a somewhat heated debate on 'Questions Time' recently one 'defender of the faith' gave as a defence "Read your bible!"
My views on the threat of racism to our civilisation was formed at an early age by images of the Nazi death-camps - which makes it all the more distressing seeing the victims become the perpetrators to the extent that they now have.
Whatever way you paint it, Palestine is an impoverished third-world state fighting over occupied territory and Israel an imperialist nuclear power obviously aiming to push the Gazans into the sea.
One of the interesting, if ironic aspects of this argument, and others on racism on this forum has been to see closet racists emerge from their hidey-holes and watch as the mask gradually slips.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:51 PM

Israel is not allowing essentials in. They are allowing a very small fraction of the total amount of food and other essentials that are needed. The people are still starving and they are not getting access to enough essentials to survive for very long.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

"One of the interesting, if ironic aspects of this argument, and others on racism on this forum has been to see closet racists emerge from their hidey-holes and watch as the mask gradually slips."

This sounds like a euphemism for 'if you don't agree with me, here, you are a racist.' Screw that!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

And Israel still controls the Rafah crossing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

And why is that, pray tell? Because Hamas still insists there is more need for arms than for the "essential medicines and food" that they have denied the Gazans? Or is it because those Gazans, "enough essentials to survive for very long. " have been there fopr HOW LONG??? The embargo is in response to HAMAS attack- EVEN the UN stops foor shipments under these circumstances.


Hardly Israel's fault, when the UN stops shipments because of Hamas actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

How much humanitarian aid reaches the people it was intended for in any country? The track record is not good. Theft, graft, government corruption...not condoning this instance but putting it in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM

Hamas Mickey Mouse TV Video Teaches Terror to Kids


The force behind Hamas TV's controversial Mickey Mouse clone said today that his children's television program will continue to promote worldwide Islamic supremacy, for everyone's benefit, including Christians and Jews.

In a long interview on Hamas TV, Hazim Al-Sha'arawi, Deputy Director of Al-Aqsa TV and one of the creators of the Hamas children's TV show Tomorrow's Pioneers, said that using the program to promote Islamic rule over other religions is actually promoting "justice, goodness and world love."

Al-Aqsa TV and the Palestinian Authority have been under fire since PMW reported last week that Tomorrow's Pioneers was using a character named Farfur, a knockoff of Disney's Mickey Mouse character, to convey messages about Islamic supremacy as well as hatred of Jews, Israel and the U.S. Despite public statements by PA Minister of Information Mustafa Barghouti that the show would be taken off the air until it could be reviewed and revised, a new episode of the program – featuring Al-Sha'arawi as one of the hosts – ran Friday.

Al-Sha'arawi said in yesterday's interview that he wants to raise Palestinian children so that they can achieve "Islam's natural place" of world rule – in essence saying that although the Christians and Jews do not understand this yet, Islamic world rule is really best for them as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Actually, the Hamas attacks were a response to the blockade that was already in place prior to the first rocket attack (the original rocket was also in response to Israel's targeted assassinations of Hamas members - killing civilians in the process). Hamas has said repeatedly that the rocket attacks will cease when Israel ends the blockade and stops bombing Gaza.

However, Israel's refusal to allow enough humanitarian supplies to enter Gaza has nothing whatever to do with weapons. Israel inspects the supplies before they enter Gaza, but even after inspecting them and determining that there are no weapons, they are still not letting them through. They are being parked at the border between Israel and Gaza where they are helping no one. Israel is just using Hamas as an excuse to starve the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

How many died of starvation, while Hamas smuggled in those arms and rockets???

How many died from lack of medicines, while Hamas smuggled in those arms?

Why did Hamas feel that night vision equipment and microwave ovcens were more important than food or medicine to bring in DURING the fighting?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

As I have said repeatedly on another thread, it is not possible to bring enough food in through the tunnels to feed 1.2 million people. Even if Hamas was not bringing in any weapons at all through those tunnels, the Palestinians in Gaza would still be starving. It's the blockade that is starving the people in Gaza, not the smuggling of weapons into Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

And the number who have died of starvation? ( as opposed to being killed by Hamas for "anti-Hamas " activities)?

It is Hamas that is killing Gazans, not the Israeli blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

I don't think its possible to know at this point how many people in Gaza have died as a result of the blockade. We do know that many have died because they did not have access to medical care as a result of the blockade. We also know that most of the people in Gaza were subsisting on one meal a day before Israel's latest incursion there. Things are worse there now, not only because of lack of food, but also because of lack of shelter. I think it's going to take some time to determine how many deaths are a result of the blockade and how many are the result of people being bombed to death.

The blockade is unnecessary, and its only purpose is to kill civilians in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:44 PM

For God sake. This happens to the UN everywhere where there is conflict for crying out loud! Tell me what's so special about this paticular conflict? It is happening in every conflict in the world. The ones with the guns will control the supply full stop. Will humanity ever learn? - I seriously doubt it. We live in a sad and vile world,: more's the pity.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

While Israel may monitor activity at the Rafah crossing, it has no physical presence there and no control over whether or not it is open. When Egypt wants it closed, for their own reasons, they use the excuse that the required EU monitors aren't there, and the EU's excuse is that their mission is to coordinate withFatah crossing guards...and Fatah is long gone. Here is an article from an Israeli source, which is probably biased, on the supply issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM

ALL reports are biased- but one can at least try to determine what parts of the truth each states.

So far, the IDF reports have been more accurate than those of Hamas or the UN, even when it is to the IDF's harm.


One has to wonder, from past reports, how many of those bodies killed by "Israeli bombs" have Hamas morter fragments in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

"This sounds like a euphemism for 'if you don't agree with me, here, you are a racist.' Screw that! "
No - apart from the argument being used used for this invasion it is interesting to see the 'usual suspects' (especially one particularly disturbingly nasty individual) appearing in threads defending Prince Harry's use of the words 'Paki' and 'Towelhead' and Carol,Thatchers wonderful 'Golliwog' gaffe - both of which have, wisely, in my opinion, been closed by the administrator.
There are two sides to this argument, the first being the legitimacy of Israels occupation of Palestine and the ghettoisation of its residents (still being carefully tip-toed around by the apologists), then the inhuman, and internationally illegal treatment of non-combatants, particularly children. As far as I am concerned Israel entered the sewer with its use of chemical weapons against civilians!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:29 PM

"use of chemical weapons against civilians!"

According to who? what evidence? Support this accusation, if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:11 PM

There is ample support that the Israelis used phosphorous weaponry.

Not according to the apologists from AIPAC and the right-wing nuts in Israel.

Journalists were not allowed into Gaza to find out anything. When they were admitted, finally it was under Israeli "supervision".

Analogous to the so-called "embedded" reporting in Iraq.

Hamas is a reactionary force against Israeli occupation.

Gaza is a small place. Innocents were bound to be targeted. Egypt would not
allow Palestinians in. The only place they can go is into the sea. The very thing
that Israelis accuse the Palestinians of wanting to do to them. (Projection?)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:21 PM

White phosphorous is not a "chemical weapon", any more than an illumination round (aka flare) is. WP ammunition is used for marking, such as showing which is the final round in a multiple-round shoot and for obscuring a target. It is occasionally used as an incendiary. High explosive is much more effective in an anti-personnel role.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Update: or back to the original topic!!

From the Jerusalem Post By YAAKOV KATZ February 6, 2009

UNRWA informed the IDF on Friday that it is suspending its humanitarian aid deliveries to the Gaza Strip after Hamas stole supplies the United Nations organization had transferred to the Palestinian territory.

The seizure of the 200 tons of supplies took place Thursday night and in response, UNRWA officials informed the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration that it was suspending its deliveries to the Gaza Strip until further notice. The supplies confiscated included flour and other basic commodities.

The transfer of 40 truckloads of humanitarian supplies - some 800 tons - planned for Sunday has already been canceled.

[The complete story is online at the Jerusalem Post]

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 04:09 AM

"There is ample support that the Israelis used phosphorous weaponry.
Journalists were not allowed into Gaza to find out anything. When they were admitted, finally it was under Israeli "supervision".
We will get to the bottom of all this of course - Israel has promised to investigate the matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"High explosive is much more effective in an anti-personnel role"
That's a relief!!!!!!!!!!!
Still no comments on the morality (or legality) of targeting civilians/children, or on the occupation.
Mealy-mouth rules ok!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:57 AM

My dictionary give phosphorus

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: bankley
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:33 AM

"Willy Pete came calling again, blowin' lots of smoke
Every time that he's let, out things get get burnt and broke
The dealer shows no mercy, he wears a greasy poker face
The stakes just got a lot higher as he palms another ace

Still gambling at the foot of the Cross, the Crescent and the Star
Pinned on the chest of frontier justice that thrust us behind these bars
The slick-tongued ambassador smiles like a stiletto
While we still fail to get the joke down here in the ghetto

There'll be no jambalaya in Jabaliya tonite".........

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:22 PM

Clinton Demands Hamas End Attacks on Israel as Mitchell Returns

Feb. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Hamas must end attacks on Israel and meet conditions that "have not and will not change" on recognizing Israel's right to exist and accepting current peace agreements.

"There were rockets yesterday, there were rockets this morning," Clinton told reporters at the State Department in Washington, referring to firings by Gaza Strip militants on Israeli communities. "It is very difficult to ask any nation to do anything other than defend itself in the wake of that kind of consistent attack."

Clinton spoke today alongside her new Middle East envoy, former Senator George Mitchell, who just came from an initial round of discussions with leaders in the region. Clinton said Mitchell would return this month.

Mideast leaders are eager to have Clinton herself visit them as soon as her schedule allows, Mitchell said.

Clinton said she and Mitchell discussed how to better mobilize aid to Palestinians in Gaza after the fighting between Hamas and Israel that ended this month. More than 1,300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed.

The envoy, who was instrumental in Northern Ireland peace efforts, said his initial trip had convinced him that "patient, determined and persevering diplomacy" can make a difference in easing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the Saudi peace plan that calls for Israel to return to 1967 borders, in exchange for full normalization of relations with the Arab states, could serve as the basis for negotiations. Barak spoke at a conference in Herzliya, north of Tel Aviv.

On Jan. 22, two days after his inauguration, President Barack Obama called on Arab states in the region to act on the "promise" of a peace initiative proposed by Saudi Arabia in 2002, saying it "contains constructive elements that could help advance these efforts."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM

Those that suggest that white phosphorous is not a chemical weapon can prove it by dousing it on themselves. It is in fact lethal.

The morality is clear. Innocent people are being killed. Israel is stealing human life.

Hamas is a reaction to the atrocities of Israel. There needs to be an honest broker.
The US under Bush has forfeited that right. Can Obama reclaim it? Can the UN reclaim it?

International agreement suggests the '67 borders are a good start.

Morality is in short supply these days when assessing invasions.

There is a concerted effort to derail the peace process coming from certain American groups such as Republicans and AIPAC and the Christian Right. They are the great defenders of bombing, destruction and genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, the acting head of the Palestinian Legislative Council:

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."

Watch Video of this speech

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

Stringsinger, "chemical weapon" has a specific meaning, and WP isn't one. All munitions are made of chemicals. Many things are lethal, including water and air.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

"The International Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally.

"In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used," Herby told The Associated Press. "But it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:24 PM

First,
Sorry for the false start earlier - bad day!
I meant to say my dictionary gives 'phosporous' as "a highly volatile toxic chemical". Have been pondering all day as to how the use of a 'toxic chemical' in a weapon doesn't add up to 'chemical warfare' - ah well, will get there one day I hope!
Sawzaw,
Fascinating bit of incoherent rhetoric; perhaps you might explain what it has to do with this discussion?
As an atheist with no god, I regard all religions as primitive superstitions, be they priest, vicar, minister, ayatollah, rabbi, Dali Lama.... whatever, led. As far as I am concerned people are free, even welcome to believe what they wish to as long as they confine their activities to their own churches, chapels, mosques, synagogues..... wherever they wish to carry on their practices.
Once they emerge from the confines of these places into the real world and insist on imposing their superstitions on the rest of us, then they become a dangerous, even lethal menace, as is amply demonstrated on a daily basis with car bombs, planes flying into high buildings or the invasion and takeover of a poverty stricken country and the slaughter and ghettoisation of the occupants of that country. The history of the world is covered with oceans of blood shed in the name of one religion or another, Christianity holding its own as one of the front runners.
If I had to choose between the above rhetoric in the name of Allah and the slaughter of innocents by a highly armed, trained and ruthless nuclear power driven by the belief that they are god's chosen people taking their rightful place in 'the promised land' - Tweedledum and Tweedledee, I'd say, closely followed by the mealey-mouths standing on the sidelines cheering on their particular team.
Strip away ALL the religious rhetoric from this question and what you are left with is a highly armed..... etc with imperialist ambitions and the intention to slaughter anybody who gets in their way.
If you are suggestion that your quote, a two thousand year old myth, or any piece of religious nonsense is worth one human life - may your god, whoever he or she is, forgive you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:13 PM

All very true, Jim Carroll and, in many respects, the Israelis are not much better.