BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:09 PM

yes bill,i am aware that the dating methods usually give results in the tens of thousands of years.
however i am also aware that the methods employ starting assumption.for example ,how much carbon to begin with or if the rate of decay has always been constant.
creationists suggest that it may not have been constant.the flood conditions could have radically altered the rate.admittedly that cannot be proven.
what we do know however is that dating methods can be wildly wrong.
for example rock formed from volcanic action this century have been "dated"as millenia old.
i read the new rob link.i reserve judgement as to whether it is only ghost dna discovered.up to feb 13 the article infers that is the case.
we shall see whether his "sloppy" charge holds up.
in the meantime there is still all the other stuff that at one time would be considered impossible after 65 MYO.

btw.are people getting bored,so they try to bate steve to post!?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:11 PM

ok jack- apologies first for blunder. i should have said-
   dna in dinos and radio carbon in diamonds.
i agree the bible is not a modern science book.it is as you describe but in an historical framework.i have no idea if you accept any of it as historical.forexample the ressurection? that is,nt scientifically respectable either,is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:22 PM

Not to change the subject but I'd be perfectly happy if Jesus would come and take all these self-righteous, Old Testament thumpin', Talibanish, boorish and creepy Christians the heck away...

Jesus can take 'um where ever he wants... Just take 'um...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:02 PM

Right Greg... that will surely make 'ignorance' go away.

Bad news: NOTHING will make the creationist ignorance "go away" except the death of the individuals involved.

Or possibly their being "taken up" in The Rupture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:42 PM

Well with Shaw, it s more like

"Change your mind you !! It is true because I have thought about it and MY belief in my own opinion is not faith or belief it is science."

Shaw has come to the point of answering questions that science can't answer with "Because I said so." It doesn't work for Dawkins, I don't know why Shaw would think it would work for him.


With pete, its absorbing enough information to string along the argument without learn enough to change his own mind. Its a fine line. But keep in mind that he is starting with the premise of scientists being a buffet from which he can pick and choose according to his tastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:55 PM

Right Greg... that will surely make 'ignorance' go away. Steve Shaw can tell you...

Just be like Lucy in the "Peanuts" comic strip...yell at him/them....

Old Peanuts cartoon:

Lucy, talking to Linus: "Change your mind!"
Linus just looks at her.
Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND!!
Linus looks more intimidated...
Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!!"

Lucy, walking away, disgruntled and mumbling."Boy, it's hard to get people to change their minds these day!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

The non-acceptance does not amount to a shrug, but to ignorant bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:47 AM

Yes Rob... I read a couple of sites that stress that certain microscopic structural areas in well-preserved fossils look like they might be indicative of where DNA was once located.
So far, it seems that actual DNA can be dated to 'only' about 800,000 years...with traces in some insects in Amber.

We can point to these...but if one does not accept ANY dating as being older than 5000-8000 years,...*shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Bill,

This link is more recent (2013) than my previous one:
Web Site Link

A quote from it: Additionally, the team found that when they applied a test to locate DNA in the dinosaurs, the test responded positively and identified the structural ghosts of DNA within the dinosaur 'cells'! Theirs is no direct evidence that this DNA is actually from the organism itself...[...]...However, (again), due to the low positive reaction of the dinosaur cells (these are definitely dinosaur cells, it's the DNA in them that is questionable) there may not be enough to recover sufficient amounts of usable DNA.

So what has been found are "structural ghosts" not the DNA itself...and even then, the "ghosts" may not be related to DNA from the organism itself. So Pete's assertion that "dino DNA has definitely been found" is actually wrong, re the present state of research, and is yet another example of the sloppy and partial sources he uses over-egging the pudding to pander to their own prejudices rather than limiting their conclusions to what the evidence actually shows!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

"while confessing my faith in the bible as trustworthy and reliable,"

Hold on there buddy!

I have faith in The Bible, as a book of spiritual guidance and wisdom. But it is NOT a modern science text.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:54 PM

First search re: ancient DNA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Antediluvian_DNA_studies

copied from that page: "The post-PCR era heralded a wave of publications as numerous research groups tried their hands at aDNA. Soon a series of incredible findings had been published, claiming authentic DNA could be extracted from specimens that were millions of years old, into the realms of what Lindahl (1993b) has labelled Antediluvian DNA. The majority of such claims were based on the retrieval of DNA from organisms preserved in amber. "

". A critical review of ancient DNA literature through the development of the field highlights that few recent studies have succeeded in amplifying DNA from remains older than several hundred thousand years.[13] A greater appreciation for the risks of environmental contamination and studies on the chemical stability of DNA have resulted in concerns being raised over previous reported results. The Dinosaur DNA was later revealed to be human Y-Chromosome,[14], while the DNA reported from encapsulated halobacteria has been criticized based on its similarity to modern bacteria, which hints at contamination.[15] Recent work also suggest that these bacterial DNA samples may not have survived from ancient times but may instead be the product of long-term, low-level metabolic activity.[16]"

Now... if you already reject the idea that even 'hundreds of thousands of years' is possible, it is hard to debate the issue. We DO have the <>a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi>"IceMan" from the Italian/Austrian Alps who has been dated to 5300 years ago.

Woolly mammoths have been found that date up to 35,000 years old..but:    "time and harsh weather conditions inexorably degrade DNA, splitting it up into millions of tiny snippets that are extremely difficult to piece together. For instance, a 2012 study found that in bone, half of the chemical bonds in DNA break down within 521 years after death, and the genetic material degrades completely by 6.8 million years."


I read 3/4 of this article, wondering at why they were messing with the data so freely before I realized what ICR stood for.

http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-dna-research-tale-wagging/

Pete..we CAN do pretty accurate dating on both soft tissue and material encased in rock/stone... using different methods. Both methods have identified material older than you wish to date the entire Earth.... something has to be reconciled...hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM

Greg F: You're quoting out of context. I put quotation marks around the word "scientific" in my orignal comment which I think gets across the meaning. It only became oxymoronic when you removed the quotation marks when you re-posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM

If you, or any source you are reading are claiming that DNA can survive the process that forms a diamond, it is hard to take that seriously.

The most hardy protein such as DNA cannot survive temperatures much more than 100 degrees C. and a couple of atmospheres of pressure.

For diamonds form naturally...

"The formation of natural diamond requires very specific conditions—exposure of carbon-bearing materials to high pressure, ranging approximately between 45 and 60 kilobars (4.5 and 6 GPa), but at a comparatively low temperature range between approximately 900 and 1,300 °C (1,652 and 2,372 °F). These conditions are met in two places on Earth; in the lithospheric mantle below relatively stable continental plates, and at the site of a meteorite strike.[10]"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:26 PM

creationist web sites he goes to for his scientific input

And yet anothter oxymoron.

Will the bullshit never end?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

part 2
credit to you bill if you look up the info.
i am surprised that jack suspects some frivolous purpose in posting in this discussion.i take my faith and the defense of what i believe seriously.for Gods honour and concern for unbelievers.i think you and i,bill,have communicated long enough for you at least to accept that i am telling the truth.
in the previous post you claimed or implied,i think,that the current mass of data rendered the creationist position very implausible.i would counter by saying that we all have the same data - it is the interpretation of it that matters.it is a matter of competing worldviews.nevertheless i think it worth challenging specfic points.
all the rest is tossing assertions around.
while confessing my faith in the bible as trustworthy and reliable, i have not majored on it here. by contrast evolutionists often offer theological objections to discussion of origins.
you are bordering on that,and while i dont wish to seem evasive,-at this stage i am stressing that some cause/maker is consistent with our experience in life of anything else that is made.or of life only coming from life .
i say again ,to posit what is never seen or proved is a faith position.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:50 PM

amen to the wry grin,bill.
i happily concede CMI is my main source,but i have often read yours and others links.i have just read robs link.it does not seem to support robs suggestion of contamination.
but then again,maybe i misunderstand him as he seems to imply re diamonds discussion.as far as that goes i cant remember the details now but i do understand that diamond is very resistant to contamination,though i remember penny claiming it could be.
the rob link stressed that this possibility was eliminated.contamination claims in the laboratory ,of course, cast doubt either on the lab or the method in general.the dino findings seem pretty much authenticated,despite the disbelief and opposition described.just goes to show just how much some evolutionists follow the evidence wherever it leads-smile.
i am often charged with being closed to the evidence.i wonder how much soft tissue and DNA etc has to be found in dinos and diamonds before darwinists abandon their faith in long ages.
i predict it wont happen for most.they will just decide it did get preserved ,however much they find.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:31 PM

Thanks for the information Rob Naylor. It is interesting and enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:29 PM

Cool Bill, I do get the distinct impression that he is having these discussions more for sport than enlightenment. But you are correct. He does not dwell in the gutter of name calling. He deserves credit and respect for that. I am glad to read that you have other goals. Trying to convince him may be futile.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM

Jack & Rob-- I am quite aware of Pete's reliance on creationist web sites and his misinterpretation of much of what I discuss with him.
I don't really believe he is 'winding me up', and my seemingly hopeless attempts to show him a better way keeps ME thinking and exploring how to present my arguments. I hope that, whether Pete ever agrees with me or not, he at least sees what I am getting at. Further...if Mudcat lasts another 15 years, there may be someone else to whom this sort of debate is interesting, and I simply want the best answers possible to be presented.

As long as a discussion is civil and no expletives are exchanged, I will 'assume' an honest exchange. Pete & I have so far managed this in spite of sarcasm from the sidelines... *wry grin*

It will be fine....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket answering little hawk
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:11 AM

True,there is no arbiter of what institutes unhinged.

My point is that here, Bishops have the right to scrutinise legislation in the upper house (Lords Spiritual) and some of them support, condone and possibly believe the rapture. No matter when they are just passing the collection bowl for the church roof fund, but affecting the whole country?

If the church was disestablished, it would help them too, as the majority would not have reason to question them. We don't question the hon. Secretary of The Barnsley and Dodworth Pigeon Fanciers Association, so wouldn't need to question what for the vast majority is and should be irrelevant. If they want to be taken seriously, and they do, they should disassociate themselves from absurd idiocy such as raptures, miracles and other sundry nonsense. I love to daydream too, but I don't let my superhuman powers affect my judgment when such judgement affects others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:45 AM

Bill D:

As usual, Pete's relying on the very partial and heavily-edited comments on the creationist web sites he goes to for his "scientific" input, without, as I've pleaded with him many times, making the effort to gain some true understanding of real science himeself.

I *could* spend some time here correcting his misapprehensions about dinosaur DNA. However, re the "C14-diamond" discussion, where I took a long time over explaining his misconceptions only to have him dismiss my detailed rebuttal with a couple of lines showing how *totally* he'd misunderstood both the explanation *and* the evidence that the sites he relies on for his "science" continue to use discredited explanations sometimes for years after they've been discredited, it'd be a waste of time and energy.

In fact, the early "dino DNA" discoveries...from around 1995-2004 were shown not to have been dino DNA at all but to have been due to sample contamination. Since the 1990s to the present day, Schweitzer et al have been working with samples from which they've isolated *cell-like* structures and probably proteins. However, there is no reliable evidence that they've actually isolated dinosaur DNA.

To quote her own reactions (and she's a very strong evangelical Christian, not an atheist or agnostic):

Young-earth creationists also see Schweitzer's work as revolutionary, but in an entirely different way. They first seized upon Schweitzer's work after she wrote an article for the popular science magazine Earth in 1997 about possible red blood cells in her dinosaur specimens. Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer's research was "powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible's account of a recent creation."

This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She's horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. "They treat you really bad," she says. "They twist your words and they manipulate your data." For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science.

It might be worth a look at:

Discover Magazine Article

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:48 PM

Bill, He's just winding you up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:46 PM

Greg, you're not even attempting to grasp what I'm actually saying about anything...nor do you ever. Your comments make that quite clear. You're just pursuing a personal feud with me, and it isn't worth responding to. (Meaning I just wasted a few more keystrokes that you won't even bother trying to relate to in a reasonably constructive fashion...but what the hey...c'est la vie, non? At least I get some fun out of observing your compulsive attempts to somehow "wound" me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

Well Pete...it is true that "i should have thought that the reasoning of any expert should be explored.the majority have been wrong before."

What is different now is that the 'majority' have better & better data than 500 years ago... or 1000...or even 25 or 10. Those who prefer vaguely educated guesses which favor scientific papers or books they have written are having a harder time of it. Bad reasoning based on bad data is much harder to foist off...in most 'hard science' fields.
Now... with all the results in cosmology, particle physics, and with super computers doing modeling with all this new data, they can say certain things about the age of the known Universe, but can still only hypothesize about what came **before**. That may be forever unknowable. However...not being able to 'prove' any one guess does not make any guess just as good...or give anyone the privilege of asserting they have the TRUE answer. We don't 'vote' on such things..because, as YOU just said, "...the majority have been wrong before."

   When someone claims that "God made it all" there is no reason to accept that anymore than a claim that "a god couldn't have made it all."

My view is to shrug and watch what can be discovered....including careful research into the History of Religion...including documents, cultural changes and the needs of Kings to have a way of defending their "divine rights". They almost always DO assert some form of religious doctrine to support hold the job.... and not all the various claims can be right. It is, however, possible for all to be wrong.

What I keep saying when discussing these things with you is that you have a right to your beliefs, just not a right to pick & choose facts about testable scientific data..... and the data shows in more & more detail how the Earth was formed and when...and how Life was inevitable, given certain conditions. We cannot do tests for 'souls' or 'prove' that some ultimate Being hears prayers... but we can't prove the opposite either. One simply decides to accept such things...usually because of personal feelings. I choose NOT to live a strict religious life because I see no way to choose among many contradictions...and I will not choose that way because of fear of Eternal Punishment.
The most awkward thing I do is to be a skeptic and avoid religious beliefs while trying to understand those who do accept them...as long as they do NOT infringe on my daily life. This is not easy... there are too many who wish to "share" their religion by proselytizing and trying to insert religious **beliefs** into laws & textbooks as if such things were 'proven'.


So... I didn't plan to say so much... it just all seems connected. Go back to the top and think about what I said re: the 'majority' and what actually makes some theories 'better'. We just KNOW more now... just as we have better drugs and medicine and communications.

And... I WILL look up 'dino DNA' and see what the current ideas are. You can do the same...but don't rely on only one or two sites that you already agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:27 PM

That's right, Hawk - everything is relative. And there's no such thing as objective fact, only opinion. And everything is an illusion.

La vida es sueño, y sueños, sueños son.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:47 PM

Who gets to be the final arbitor of what is unhinged and what isn't?

For example, I think the foreign policy of the USA is unhinged, but that's just my opinion. See? I don't get to make the final decision about its relative sanity or good sense, do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket not missing a trick
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

But pete, how can you get out? I told you, the rapture was the other day. My brother in law isn't answering his phone.

I guess you just didn't pray hard enough.




Sorry, but we can all day dream, but why does society expect that we humour unhinged views? Is it not acting irresponsibly to leave people thinking their delusion could be anything more than fantasy? I wouldn't mind but here in The UK we let their leaders sit in our upper house and scrutinise laws affecting real people . It is rather worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 02:18 PM

i should have thought that the reasoning of any expert should be explored.the majority have been wrong before.
i am hoping to get out also.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 12:19 PM

Pete: "however,it seems to me that you are appealing to the fact that the greater number of scientists accept darwinism.

No! No, no, no...that is a point...but not the crux of the point. IF the greater number of experts accept a certain basic position, it indicates one ought to pay attention and explore their reasoning!

More later... have to go out now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM

There ain't no money in Heaven, Musket. But there is here, and you owe me at least $20 for settin' you straight on that. ;-D

- Chongo

p.s. I prefer Paypal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans soul
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:29 AM

Yeah, he obviously missed it.   Bugger.

Better luck next time. My mate reckons the rapture comes along in stages. You'd think God could have afforded a bigger coach.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 06:39 PM

bill- just looked at your link endeavouring to prove the bible is flat earth.the language is that of appearance just like the weather man speaking of the sun rising or setting.no-one except the most pedantic [ or with an agenda] would claim that s/he was scientifically backward.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

i shall have to concede defeat,bill,as regards the tecnicalities of logical fallacies.
however,it seems to me that you are appealing to the fact that the greater number of scientists accept darwinism.
my point is that if for example,copernicus and galileo had accepted that the greater number of scientists must be correct,we might still have a geocentric cosmology.
you seem to be under the impression that i am afraid to face facts lest my belief in the bible record is destroyed, and as a consequence my faith. firstly,were that the case,i would not be engaging in discussion.secondly my comments were adressing a question from little hawk and in no way expressing insecurity.thirdly,it is facts that i prefer to address rather than broad assertions.
i am still pressing you on the dino DNA and other perishable elements.
for example ,it is my understanding that even given the most favourable conditions DNA could only last a fraction of 65MYO timescale claimed by darwiists.

btw- do you know of any astronomers who claim the moon is made out of green cheese?
or is that a not so subtle argument by ridicule-
i know - probably not tecnically correct
but it sure looks that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:39 PM

little hawk - i think you got my reply to you mixed up with my reply to bill.sorry if i was not clear enough on that.
re- your comments on most people just accepting evolution without thinking it through themselves. i wonder too whether because there are so many fields of study involved ,that even some of the more educated in one field believe it because they think others in their fields have proved it.
and as i said previously some that do believe it have admitted that it is not because the evidence demands it- honest souls.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:21 PM

jack- back a few days re dino DNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBDH311UjP
Hope thats right.sorry dot know how to do links.
have to say ,it is not the most dynamic of presentations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:48 AM

It's become a tradition. ;-) It simply has to be Carruthers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Yes...that Carruthers. Heard it 40 years ago....I'm surprised the name has lasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 12:57 AM

Really? Well, he may have favored horses at one time.

Colonel Smithers of the 17th Light Artillery: "I say, Rawlins...I hear that Carruthers has taken up an intimate relationship with one of his cavalry mounts."

Captain Willoughby of the 17 Light Artillery: "The duece, he has! Is it a mare or a stallion?"

Colonel Smithers: "A mare, of course! Nothing queer about Carruthers..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 11:29 AM

I thought Carruthers favored horses...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 10:05 AM

As for your brother-in-law...first check and see if he might not have run off with a Chimpanzee. It happens. Carruthers spent three years in a tree house with one, so no one is necessarily immune.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:51 AM

It started some time ago. As I mentioned previously, one of my Dachshunds vanished into thin air a few years back, and no trace of him has ever been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans knowledge of stories
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:50 AM

By the way chaps.

The rapture has started.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Tried ringing the brother in law just now and no answer. He must have been called up.

You still here pete?

Oh dear. My commiserations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:01 AM

There isn't a single thing in the Bible that indicates that the world is flat. The Bible is NOT a science text, and was not written with such a purpose in mind, therefore there's no point using it for such a purpose.

All mariners knew the world was round long before Columbus ever sailed. You can see the curvature of the Earth at sea on a relatively calm day, and you can see the masts of a distant ship before you see its hull loom above the horizon, which again indicates the curvature of the Earth. Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians knew the Earth was round. So did sailors and moderately educated people in medieval times, but I don't doubt that some poorly educated landbound people may have thought the Earth was flat...if they ever thought about it at all. They probably did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

There is an alternate theory that Columbus called the people of the New World "Indios" or children of god because of their peacefulness and kindness. The just the kind of people the Europeans took great delight in murdering, raping and pillaging.

The flat earth had been rejected for centuries by the times of Columbus. The Greeks had long ago proven it was round. If anyone used the bible to claim it was flat, it is only proof that the bible is useless. If you're not already on the right track before you read it, it won't set you on the right track, it will only reinforce whatever it is that you currently believe and since no one can have every right answer then neither can the bible. Case closed on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 05:05 PM

BTW...as to Columbus, I do wish to acknowledge that many in his time did NOT believe in a flat earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth (very long article tracing most of the beliefs from ancient times up to today)

However, there were many who DID still claim a flat earth, based on literal readings of the Bible.

I'm sure that Columbus was aware of the idea, whether he believed it or not. In any case, it's not crucial to the point I was making about 'common wisdom' and actual fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

Hmm! Well, that's a fresh new theory on Columbus, Guest. You might possibly have something there, I suppose. Columbus does seem to have thought he had reached islands in Asian waters, though, probably assuming he'd reached some part of Indonesia or something. He named the people he found "Indians", precisely because he thought he'd reached the spice islands of Asia.

What the Spanish had instead discovered was the gateway to a gigantic new empire that would make them, for a time, the greatest power in the world...until the English took that title from them.

Bill - You said: "I maintain that it IS possible to accept both: 1)the message in the Bible and treat it as guidance rather than a perfect narrative and 2)the studies of science- treating them as the details of *how* God designed the universe to work after Creation."

Right with you there, Bill. It is when people treat the Bible as a perfect literal narrative (as if it were dictation from God) that they go far astray, in my opinion. Rather, it is a collection of spiritual (and some cultural) writings by many different men, men who certainly intended to deliver a valuable spiritual message, but who were also under the influence of competitive political considerations of all kinds, and under the limitations of their own experience, understanding, and prejudices. They had their own axes to grind, and they didn't all agree with each other by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 02:25 PM

>>The reason Columbus' sailors got scared and almost mutinied was not that they thought they would fall off the edge of the world! It was because they were afraid they would run out of drinking water before they ever reached landfall in Asia...which is where Columbus thought he was going. Columbus was under the impression that the globe was significantly smaller than it is. Some other authorities at the time thought he was wrong about that, and he was, of course. If there had been no American continent and no Caribbean islands for Columbus to run into on his way west to Asia, he would have indeed run out of fresh water supplies less than halfway there, and he and all his men would have died.<<

This is correct. What's odd, though, is that Columbus hit land right down to the very day he said he would before he left Europe. This would indicate the route-to-Asia story was a ruse that Spain was already aware of a vast unknown continent on that side of the world. Rather than spur competition, they developed a ridiculous cover story meant to make informed people sneer so that other countries would not try to get their own expeditions out there to claim this new, unknown land as their own before Spain. The question is, who sailed these secret expeditions, when and using what maps?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM

To turn your own assertion against you: "it is my opinion ,though i cannot prove it,that the acceptance of evolutionism goes with the rejection of the biblical record.this in turn leads to dismissal of the biblical God."

Buried in that, it seems to me, is YOUR worry...that evolution cannot be believed without denying your basic faith. This is true ONLY if your basic faith is in, as I have said, a LITERAL acceptance of biblical chronology, as if God had dictated it directly to scribes. That is itself unprovable! ....indeed we have only old manuscripts that have themselves been selected (and some ignored), translated and interpreted by 'scholars' who either had a vested interest in ONE theory or were just bad tranlators and researchers. (like the flawed experts I just posted about.)

I maintain that it IS possible to accept both: 1)the message in the Bible and treat it as guidance rather than a perfect narrative and 2)the studies of science- treating them as the details of *how* God designed the universe to work after Creation.

Believing as you do demands rejecting obvious data and research because you fear it conflicts with a *belief*...as you just said. At a certain point, I can only shrug and say, "I cannot debate more with you if you cannot see my basic reasoning about what constitutes 'fair' data and evidence."


I cannot help but remember a ltttle quotation from the writings of Nietzsche, seeking to make a point about human reasoning when he imagined an old woman saying: "Of course it was a just war... my son died in it!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 01:20 PM

It is difficult to address your points, Pete, without long explanations about the type of errors I find in your basic arguments and the mis-characterizations of MY points.

To illustrate: you say,

"... the main thrust of your argument is appeal to authority and numbers of scientists who are evolutionists."

No... "appeal to authority" is a specific type of fallacy where the status of the 'authority' is in doubt. There is a HUGE difference between claiming *A* is true because one or more people say so, and asserting *A* is probably true because you have looked at the evidence proposed by various authorities who tend to agree on the basic facts and analysis.   
   The point is **not** that I just believe a different set of 'experts' than you, but that there is a difference in the type of data and its relevance that our experts put foreward.
   If one set of 'experts' relies on circular reasoning and un-testable hypotheses, they are not fair authorities, no matter what their 'credentials' are. If man has a degree in Astronomy and states the "the moon is made of green cheese", he is not the sort of authority to appeal to.

"if you think,as you suggest that science did not flourish under a biblical worldview,i ask you to evidence that claim.

Copernicus
...and many other examples..including Giordano Bruno, who was not as clever as Copernicus and didn't shut up when the Church said to.

Science often progressed in spite of a 'biblical worldview', not 'under' it. Most scientists tried to go where the data led... even when church leaders told them they were being heretical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 12:29 AM

No, I actually think science has flourished throughout the development of human civilization, though it's been at odds now and then with some religious viewpoints (and within its own ranks as well). In ancient times the very same people studied both science AND religion in many cases, and saw them as a common path toward knowledge, though utilizing different methods of inquiry.

I don't think of the Bible primarily as a record of history...but as a book of mainly symbolic and allegorical writings about spiritual inspiration...with some history included. Therefore, it isn't a question of violating "the Biblical record" to me, because I don't think of it as a record...rather as a form of spiritual guidance.

Yes, my idea of God is vague. The reason for that is because my knowledge is quite limited...so too my experience...and I am not in a position to be able to manage more than a fairly vague understanding of how to define "God"...because God is way larger than any definition I could possibly come up with. I can say all the words I want about it, but they won't begin to express it.

I wasn't wrong about Columbus. People who believed Washington Irving's story were wrong about Columbus! ;-D I may have believed that story once, a long time ago when I was a kid, but I don't really remember at this point.

You're right in what you imply...that most modern people just automatically assume Darwin was right, simply because that's the normal common assumption now in this primarily secular age, and they wouldn't dream of questioning it. They have accepted it on faith, believing what they've been told by others. A few have looked into it seriously, and they have something real to base their opinions on, but such people would comprise, I think, less than 1% of the population.

My own feeling about Darwin's theory is, it's probably partly right...though does not necessarily tell the whole story. But I can't say for sure, because my knowledge of that subject, again, is rather limited...mostly to textbooks and stuff I read on natural history when I was in my youth.