BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:02 AM

Half a league, half a league, half a league onward:

600!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:57 AM

Fair point Nigel. Like most people however I think letting children believe Father Christmas exists is (mostly) harmless.

But I think you know what I was driving at. I can envisage no reason why a man, presumably at the latter end of his life, would lie to his son about something so serious.

Splitting hairs in this instance is disingenuous and does not add to the discussion in any positive manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:46 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM
Thirdly why should a soldier from WW1 lie to his son many years after the event. I don't know about you but I am, and always have been, scrupulously honest with my son.

I covered this above, in a message you didn't respond to:
Raggytash:
Another liar perhaps
Possibly, possibly not. But not someone who can provide first hand evidence.
The newspaper is reporting what the son says his (dead) father told him. In law this would be classed as 'hearsay'.
There is no way of interrogating the father. It is also possible that he was passing on what he had been told (urban myth) as his own experience to provide a better example of the horrors of war. We will never know.

If you have always been scrupulously honest with your son then you must be one in a million. Your son will have missed out on Father Christmas, the tooth fairy, and many other things, but never mind, at least you haven't lied to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:31 AM

Professor get you facts right. Watch the time line below:

ONE.Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM

Who said I was talking about summary executions? I've never touched on that in my life. You dismissed the testimony of the soldiers in the trenches in general in favour of modern, living historians only. I'm only telling you what you said. It's very suspicious that you don't accept it whilst you do fully accept accounts by Spitfire pilots. You see, the one doesn't fit your preconceptions whilst the other does. That's what makes you not at all believable. Jaysus.

TWO.From: Teribus - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

Unsubstantiated stories of alleged summary executions was the only time in the WWI threads that I questioned the veracity of supposed eye-witness accounts from the trenches Shaw.

THREE:Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

I believe that is only one small part of the stories told by "Tommies" who were actually in the trenches, actually in the fighting. You have condemned them all as liars on many occasions.

However, that particular argument has run it's full course more than once.

You will note that TERIBUS once again introduced the subject of the trenches whilst I initially suggested it had run it course.

Will you apologise ............ I somehow doubt it, you never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:29 AM

No Steve.
Raggy derailed the thread, not my sentence.

You just keep trying so desperately to get something on me, and failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM

First things first I have never claimed that "The accusation that British soldiers were summarily executed by their own officers and by "special squads" of Military Police remains unsubstantiated and unproven"

So you can forget that.

Second issue, we do not know if the gentleman in question gave the name of the soldier murdered or the name of the officer culpable. We only know they are not mentioned in the article. As the soldier could be construed as to have been killed for cowardice, that is a decent reason for not naming him. As the officer may have been shot by his own side that again is a good reason for not naming him. The dates in relation to the article are irrelevant.

Thirdly why should a soldier from WW1 lie to his son many years after the event. I don't know about you but I am, and always have been, scrupulously honest with my son.

Forthly, you try to maintain a time frame not given in the article, however even using your time frame units of the North Staffordshire regiment where engaged in fighting:

1/6th Battalion Territorial Force:Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.

8th (Service) Battalion:During 1915
The Action of Pietre.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert, The attacks on High Wood, The Battle of Pozieres Ridge, The Battle of the Ancre Heights, The Battle of the Ancre.

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers):29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;During 1916 The Battle of the Ancre.

I could go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM

One short sentence that had absolutely nothing to do with the thread title and not even a single short one-syllable word about tbe substantive, Keith. Don't start. Tell us, Keith. If you lived in Northern Ireland would you vote DUP? Got anything to say about May's big stitch-up?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

I'm all in favour of thread drift, Iains, and have said so many times. Keith is also in favour of thread drift - when he thinks things are going his way. But just watch him squeal when things are looking a bit rocky. He's done it so many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:09 AM

I'll remind you that you were cheerfully helping to derail this one.

But that would be untrue Steve.

Rag was entirely responsible for it.
Teribus merely took the trouble to expose the lie, and I just posted one short sentence acknowledging the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:58 AM

Ah but steve, a history lesson is way more interesting than a cookery lesson, or a blow by blow account of your journey to becoming a master sommelier.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:45 AM

Hmm. Next time you squeal about someone going off-topic in one of your threads, Keith, your usual ploy when things are getting tough, I'll remind you that you were cheerfully helping to derail this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 04:23 AM

Nothing desperate about what I have posted Raggy.

YOU have posted the Regimental History of the North Staffordshire Regiment - indicate what offensive operations they were involved in on the Western Front in the period January 1916 to June 1916. Good luck with that Raggy - 1916 as far as the war went was a year of German offensive operations the largest of them being the attack on the French at Verdun - Falkenhayn's attempt to bleed the allies white. The only British offensive operation that year was the Battle of the Somme, which was too late in the year for the time frame given in the article. The Somme was an offensive operation forced upon Haig and mounted to relieve pressure on the French at Verdun. It worked, by the end of the battles of Verdun and the Somme it was the German Army that had been bled, their commander was relieved of his command and the German High Command acknowledged that with the forces they had available they could not defeat France and Britain on the western front.

The accusation that British soldiers were summarily executed by their own officers and by "special squads" of Military Police remains unsubstantiated and unproven.

So Raggy are you really trying to tell me if your best friend was shot and killed at close quarters right in front of your eyes by someone you knew and worked with, you would not be able to remember:

- Name of your best friend
- Name of his murderer
- The date on which your best friend was murdered
- The time of day your best friend was murdered
- The place where your best friend was murdered

Like all other previously proffered examples - Your link and the story told has got too many holes in it to be credible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 03:45 AM

Rag your story has been shown to be lies, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 09:13 PM

The DUP/May axis was bound to make agreement a hundred times more difficult. I can't believe that I left this one out of my litany of Theresa May's balls-ups. But Teribus is still clinging to his "CORBYN would be an absolute disaster..." etc., etc. 😂 She's going to go down as the worst prime minister this country has ever had by a country mile.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:14 PM

Wonder if those busy playing tin soldiers have anything to say on the fact that the DUP negotiations have bombed - "Bye, bye Tessie we must leave you" seems appropriate in these military circumstances
What a fuck-up eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM

I should have posted that you are really desperate to protect the people you perceive to be officers and gentlemen and thus have to be obeyed.

You really are a sad case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:02 PM

You really are desperate aren't you.

What a sad case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:33 PM

Sydney John Hollis

Gender:        Male

Birth:        Circa 1899 Hanley, Staffordshire

Residence: As of Apr 2 1911 - 53. Clarence Street, Basford Stoke on - Trent, Staffordshire, England

Age:        12

Occupation:        School

Father:        Benjamin Hollis
Mother:        Elizabeth Hollis

Siblings:        
Harrold Hollis
Mary Ellen Hollis
Ernest Hollis
Florence May Hollis
Lillian Hollis

If Sydney Hollis enlisted when he turned 16 (Inspired by his brother Harold who was in the Territorial Army according to the article) he would have joined either:

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force (TF) – mobilised in 1914, and served in France from 1915 to 1918.

1/6th Battalion TF – mobilised in 1914, served in France from 1915 to 1918.

I don't think that the TA paid too well in peacetime so best guess is that it was not the fact that brother Harold was in the Territorial Army that prompted him to volunteer, but the fact that on war being declared brother Harold was called up and his TA Unit mobilised for active service that inspired young Sydney Hollis to enlist. In which case Young Sydney would have been in Kitchener's "New Army" intake K3, and he would have gone to what they called "Service" Battalions i.e. those who joined and pronounced themselves prepared for duties overseas for "service in the line".

In 1914 it was the Regulars who fought
In 1915 the Regulars who were left were joined by the Reserves and the TA Battalions
In 1916 The survivors of the Regulars, the reserves and the TA were joined by the volunteers of Kitchener's New Army
In 1917 That is when the bulk of the conscripts started to arrive.

The cherry-picking if that is what you see it as is driven by the detail given in the article.

Joined up in 1914 with his best pal who has no-name, sorry his murdered best pal, whose name must have slipped his mind.

They served in France so that rules out all the Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment who did not serve in France (Good Cherry-pick that Raggy it removes loads from the list)

This summary execution took place 18 months after Sydney Hollis and his pal joined up which puts it some time between January 1916 and June 1916. This time frame eliminates Battalions who served in France after June 1916 (Another bit of Cherry-picking - that I will refer to as logic), so no need to read about the Battle of Cambrai as that was fought in 1918.

Now the Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment present in France were not engaged in any offensive operations in that period (As detailed by the Regimental History you provided Raggy) which begs the question why were Sydney Hollis + best pal whose name escaped him + beastly Officer (whose name also escaped Sydney) being sent "over the top"? Reasonable question don't you think?

Now Raggy put yourself in Sydney Hollis's shoes, your best pal, who you have served with since joining up is shot right there in front of you by one of your own Company Officers and you cannot remember even the most basic details of the incident? Come on pull the other one every single detail of that incident would be seared into your mind until eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:10 PM

truths can stay hidden for a long time Teribus. The catholic church with its record of abusing women and children has relied on that.

the Savilles of this world don't always get their sins disclosed.

many sins and crimes go undiscovered and unpunished.

just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 01:46 PM

Did I say cherry pick, what I really meant was that you were trying to mislead people by not including all the information available.

Some may accuse you of lying by omission, some may.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM

Of course Terikins, nicely cherry picked.
Firstly you arbitrarily decided he must have signed up in August 1914, not something stated in the article. Then you didn't take time to read the article but immediate decided he was lying because the office called him "mate" then "solider. Now you carefully cherry pick the actions and again the dates. You will note from the details below that the Service Battalions (which you again have arbitrarily placed Hollis in) did engage in battles.

If you dispute this take it up with the people who wrote the Regimental history.

1st Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Buttevant, Ireland as part of the 17th Brigade of the 6th Division and then move to Cambridge and then on to Newmarket.
12.09.1914 Mobilised for war and landed at St. Nazaire and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1914
The actions on the Aisne heights.
Dec 1914 This Battalion took part in the Christmas Truce of 1914.
During 1915
The action at Hooge
18.10.1915 Transferred to the 72nd Brigade of the 24th Division and continued to engage in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916
The German gas attack at Wulverghem, The Battle of Delville Wood, The Battle of Guillemont.
e Battle of Vimy Ridge, The Battle of Messines, The Battle of Pilkem Ridge, The Battle of Langemarck, The Cambrai Operations.
During 1918
The Battle of St Quentin, The Actions at the Somme Crossings, The Battle of Rosieres, The First Battle of the Avre, The Battle of Cambrai 1918, The pursuit to the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Feignies west of Maubeuge.

2nd Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Rawal Pindi, India where it remained throughout the war.

3rd (Reserve) Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Lichfield and then moved to Plymouth.
May 1915 Moved to Seaham, in County Durham and then Forest Hall, in North Tyneside.
Oct 1916 Moved to Wallsend, North Tyneside where it remained.

4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
04.08.1914 Stationed at Lichfield and then moved to Guernsey.
Sept 1916 Moved to Marske.
Mar 1917 Moved to Saltburn and in June joined the 200th Brigade of the 67th Division moving to Westbere, Canterbury.
07.10.1917 Left the 67th and mobilised for war landing at Havre and transferred to the 167th Brigade of the 56th Division.
15.11.1917 Transferred to the 106th Brigade of the 35th Division near Ypres and engaged in various actions on the Western Front.
03.02.1918 Transferred to the 105th Brigade of the same Division and continued to fight on the Western Front including;
During 1918
The First Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Ypres, The Battle of Courtrai, The action of Tieghem.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in Belgium, Audenhove N.E. of Renaix.

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force
04.08.1914 Stationed at Hanley, as part of the Staffordshire Brigade of the North Midland Division and then moved to the Luton area, and then Bishops Stortford.
04.03.1915 Mobilised for war and landed in France where the formation became the 137th Brigade of the 46th Division.
During 1915
The German liquid fire attack at Hooge, The attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.
Jan 1916 Moved to Egypt.
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.
During 1917
Operations on the Ancre, Occupation of the Gommecourt defences, The attack on Rettemoy Graben, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The attack on Lievin, The Battle of Hill 70.
30.01.1918 Transferred to the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division, absorbing the 2/5th Battalion and continued to fight on the Western Front;
The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge.
09.05.1918 Reduced to training cadre and transferred to the 16th Division.
17.06.1918 Transferred to the 34th Division.
27.06.1918 Transferred to the 117th Brigade of the 39th Division.
12.08.1918 Transferred to the 116th Brigade o f the 39th Division.
06.11.1918 Demobilised in France near Etaples.

1/6th Battalion Territorial Force
04.08.1914 Stationed at Burton-on-Trent as part of the Staffordshire Brigade of the North Midland Division and then moved to the Luton area, and then Bishops Stortford.
04.03.1915 Mobilised for war and landed in France where the formation became the 137th Brigade of the 46th Division.
During 1915
The German liquid fire attack at Hooge, The attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.
Jan 1916 Moved to Egypt.
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.
During 1917
Operations on the Ancre, Occupation of the Gommecourt defences, The attack on Rettemoy Graben, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The attack on Lievin, The Battle of Hill 70.
During 1918
The Battle of the St Quentin canal, The Battle of the Beaurevoir Line, The Battle of Cambrai, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Sains du Nord S.E. of Avesnes.

2/5th Battalion Territorial Force
01.11.1914 Formed at Hamley.
Jan 1915 Moved to Luton area and joined the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division and the moved to St. Albans.
April 1916 Moved to Ireland; Dublin and then Curragh to quell the troubles there.
Jan 1917 Moved to Fovant, Salisbury Plain.
25.02.1917 Mobilised for war and landed in France and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1917
The pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The capture of Bourlon Wood.
06.02.1918 absorbed into the 1/5th Battalion.

2/6th Battalion Territorial Force
01.11.1914 Formed at Burton.
Jan 1915 Moved to Luton area and joined the 176th Brigade of the 59th Division and the moved to St. Albans.
April 1916 Moved to Ireland; Dublin and then Curragh to quell the troubles there.
Jan 1917 Moved to Fovant, Salisbury Plain.
25.02.1917 Mobilised for war and landed in France and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1917
The pursuit of the German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The capture of Bourlon Wood.
During 1918
The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge.
09.05.1918 Reduced to training cadre and transferred to the 66th Division.
31.07.1918 Absorbed into the 1/6th Battalion.

3/5th and 3/6th Battalion Territorial Force
May 1915 Formed at Hanley and Burton and then moved to Grantham.
08.04.1916 Became the 5th and 6th (Reserve) Battalions.
01.09.1916 the 5th absorbed the 6th and moved to Catterick as part of the North Midland Reserve Brigade Territorial Force.
Mar 1917 Moved to Lincoln and then Mablethorpe.

7th (Service) Battalion
29.08.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the First New Army (K1) and joined the 39th Brigade of the 13th Division and moved to Salisbury Plain.
Jan 1915 Moved to Basingstoke and then Blackdown, Aldershot.
June 1915 Embarked for Gallipoli form Avonmouth.
July 1915 Landed at Gallipoli and engaged in various actions against the Turkish forces including;
The Battle of Sari Bair, The Battle of Russell's Top, The Battle of Hill 60.
26.01.1916 Evacuated to Egypt due to heavy casualties from combat, disease and severe weather conditions.
29.02.1916 Moved to Mesopotamia and engaged in various actions including;
During 1917
The Battle of Kut al Amara, The capture of the Hai Salient, The capture of Dahra Bend, The passage of the Diyala, and the capture of Baghdad.
July 1918 Transferred to the 39th Brigade of the North Persia Force and moved to Baku to protect the oil fields.
31.10.1918 Ended the war in North Persia, Enzeli.

8th (Service) Battalion
18.09.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the Second New Army (K2) and joined the 57th Brigade of the 19th Division and moved to Salisbury Plain, and then Bristol.
Feb 1915 Moved to Weston-super-Mare and then Tidworth.
18.07.1915 Mobilised for war and then landed in France and engaged in various action on the Western Front including;
During 1915
The Action of Pietre.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert, The attacks on High Wood, The Battle of Pozieres Ridge, The Battle of the Ancre Heights, The Battle of the Ancre.
During 1917
The Battle of Messines, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle, First Battle of Passchendaele, The Second Battle of Passchendaele.
07.02.1918 Transferred to the 56th Brigade of the 19th Division and continued to fight on the Western Front;
During 1918
The Battle of St Quentin, The Battle of Bapaume, The Battle of Messines, The Battle of Bailleul, The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge, The Battle of the Aisne, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, Bry west of Bavai.

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers)
20.09.1914 Formed at Lichfield as part of the Third New Army (K3) and attached to the 22nd Division and moved to South Downs and then Hastings.
20.04.1915 Moved to Windmill Hill, Salisbury Plain and joined the 37th Division as a Pioneer Battalion.
29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916
The Battle of the Ancre.
During 1917
The First and Second Battles of the Scarpe, The Battle of Arleux, The Battle of Pilkem Ridge, The Battle of the Menin Road Ridge, The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle, The First Battle of Passchendaele.
During 1918
The Battle of the Ancre, The Battle of the Albert, The Battle of Havrincourt, The Battle of the Canal du Nord, The Battle of Cambrai, The pursuit to the Selle, The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1915 Ended the war in France, south of Le Quesnoy.

10th (Reserve) Battalion
Oct 1914 Formed as a service battalion of the Third New Army (K3) at Plymouth, but then transferred to the Fourth New Army (K4) as part of the 99th brigade of the 33rd Division, and then moved to Okehampton.
10.04.1915 Became a 2nd Reserve battalion and moved to Darlington, then Rugeley, Cannock Chase as part of the 1st Reserve Brigade.
01.09.1916 Became the 3rd Training Reserve Battalion.

11th (Reserve) Battalion
Oct 1914 Formed as a service battalion of the Fourth New Army (K4) at Guernsey.
Feb 1915 Moved to Alderney.
10.04.1915 Became a 2nd Reserve battalion and moved to Darlington, then Rugeley, Cannock Chase as part of the 1st Reserve Brigade.
01.09.1916 Became the 3rd Training Reserve Battalion.

12th (Service) Battalion
11.06.1918 Formed in France from the 11th Garrison Guard.
15.06.1918 Joined the 119th Brigade of the 40th Division and moved to St. Omer, and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The Final Advance in Flanders
11.11.1918 Ended the war in France, south of Roubaix.

13th (Garrison) Battalion
31.07.1918 Formed in France from the 1st Garrison Guard.

1st (Garrison) Battalion
April 1916 Formed at South Dalton.
May 1916 went to France
31.07.1918 Became the 13th (Garrison) Battalion.

2nd (Home Service) Garrison Battalion
Nov 1916 Formed in Guernsey
Aug 1917 Became the 17th Battalion of the Royal Defence Corps.

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Battles / Campaigns

St Quentin Canal (1918) WW1

Please also refer to The battle of Cambrai
Cambrai (1918) WW1

The battle of Cambrai-St. Quentin, 27 September-9 October 1918, was the main British contribution to Marshal Foch's all out attack on the Hindenburg line (the Hundred Days). It saw three British and one French army force the Germans out of their strong defensive line and back to the River Selle.

Foch's plan involved a Franco-American attack between Reims and Verdun (Meuse-Argonne Offensive), a combined French, British and Belgian attack in Flanders, and a mainly British offensive between Cambrai and St. Quentin. Here four allied armies (three British and one French), under the overall attack of Douglas Haig, would attack the strongest part of the German line.

Haig's four armies, from north to south, were the British First (Horne), Third (Byng) and Fourth (Rawlinson) and the French First (General Marie Eugene Debeney). On 25 September the British had 22 divisions in the front line, with twenty more in reserve. Amongst them were two divisions of the American II Corps, the equivalent of four normal divisions. Debeney had a further eight divisions in the line. The Germans had fifty seven divisions opposing the British. Rawlinson's fourth army, which was to make the central attack, was faced by von der Marwitz's Second Army.

The German defensive position had been carefully chosen towards the end of 1916. Long sections of it were based on the Canal du Nord and the St. Quentin Canal, which ran through steep sided 60ft deep cuttings. The British plan was to launch their main attack between Vendhuille and Bellicourt, where the canal ran through a tunnel. The elite Australian corps and the fresh US II Corps would carry out the attack. Elsewhere attacks would be made on the line of the canal, but less was expected of them.

The battle began on 27 September with an attack by the First and Third Armies on the Canal du Nord. They advanced four miles along a thirteen mile front, captured 10,000 prisoners and cleared the canal.

The southern attack began on 29 September. It did not go according to plan. A preliminary attack on 28 September had failed, leaving American troops in isolated advanced position close to German strong points. The artillery bombardment couldn't fire on these strong points for fear of hitting the Americans, and nor could the first part of the advance be protected by a creeping barrage. The American attack was soon bogged down (although elements from the 30th Division were able to seize control of the southern end of the St. Quentin Canal), forcing the Australians to join in much sooner than expected. The attack on the St. Quentin Canal was in serious trouble.

Further south the canal itself was also under attack. IX Corps had prepared carefully for the water crossing, providing their men with collapsible boats, life jackets and even floating piers, in the expectation that the Germans would destroy every bridge over the canal. Instead, as the 46th (North Midland) Division advanced towards the canal they realised that the bridge at Riquaval was still intact. The 137th (Staffordshire) Brigade captured the western bank of the canal, and the 1/6th North Staffords rushed the bridge. By the end of the day two divisions were across the canal, and IX Corps had captured four miles of the main Hindenburg Line. The attack at Riquaval produced one of the most famous pictures of the war, taken on 2 October 1918 and showing the men of the 137th Brigade lining the steep banks of the cutting listening to a speech by Brigadier-General J V Campbell.

The following day the 3rd Army were in the western suburbs of Cambrai and by 2 October the line of the St. Quentin Canal had been captured. General Max von Boehm, commanding the local German army group, was forced to retreat to a new line running south from Cambrai.

This line only held for a few days. On 8 October the British Third and Fourth and French First Armies, launched a set-piece attack along a 17 mile front, forcing the Germans out of the new line. Cambrai was liberated on 9 October, and the Germans forced back to a new line on the River Selle, near Le Cateau. The BEF was returning to the battlefields of 1914.

The battle of Cambrai-St. Quentin is also know as the battle for the Hindenburg Line. Officially it was the battles for the Hindenburg Line, further broken down into the battle of the Canal du Nord, 27 September-1 October 1918 (the British First and Second Armies) and the battle of the St. Quentin Canal, 29 September-2 October 1918 (the Fourth and French First Armies), followed by the battle of Beaurevoir, 3-6 October 1918 and then the battle of Cambrai of 1918, 8-9 October 1918.

After 9 October the fighting died down for a few days while the British prepared to attack the line of the Selle. Having pushed the Germans out of their main defensive lines, Haig was determined not to give them the time to create strong new positions.
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Active From: 1881 - 1959


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Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 12:36 PM

Very good Raggy:

The North Staffordshire Regiment was expanded to 18 battalions, these battalions saw service in a number of theatres including on the Western Front, at Gallipoli, in the Middle East, and India. The following list details the involvement of these battalions:

1st Battalion – served in France from September 1914 until November 1918;

2nd Battalion – served in India throughout the war;
3rd (Reserve) Battalion – operated as a training battalion in the United Kingdom throughout the war;
4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion – garrison battalion in Guernsey 1914–1916. Returned to United Kingdom in 1916. Served in France 1917–1918;

1/5th Battalion Territorial Force (TF) – mobilised in 1914, and served in France from 1915 to 1918;

1/6th Battalion TF – mobilised in 1914, served in France from 1915 to 1918;

2/5th Battalion TF – formed in 1914, moved to Ireland in 1916 where it was involved in the Easter Rising, served in France 1917–1918. Merged with 1/5th Battalion in February 1918;
2/6th Battalion TF – formed in 1914, moved to Ireland in 1916 where it was involved in the Easter Rising, served in France 1917–1918. Merged with 1/6th Battalion in July 1918;
3/5th Battalion TF – formed in 1915. Renamed 5th (Reserve) Battalion in April 1916. Served as a training battalion in England 1915–1918;
3/6th Battalion TF – formed in 1915. Renamed 6th (Reserve) Battalion in April 1916. Merged with 5th (Reserve) Battalion in September 1916;
7th (Service) Battalion – formed in 1914. Took part in Gallipoli Campaign July 1915 – January 1916. Evacuated to Egypt. Served in Mesopotamia from February 1916. From July 1918 were part of North Persia Force (Dunsterforce) and ended the war in Baku, Azerbaijan.

8th (Service) Battalion – formed in 1914. Served in France 1915–1918;

9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers) – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a pioneer battalion in 1915. Served in France and Belgium 1915–1919;

10th (Reserve) Battalion – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a reserve battalion in 1915. Renamed as 3rd Training Reserve Battalion of 1st Reserve Brigade in 1916;
11th (Reserve) Battalion – formed as a service battalion in 1914. Became a reserve battalion in 1915. Renamed as 4th Training Reserve Battalion of 1st Reserve Brigade in 1916;
12th (Service) Battalion – formed 1918 in France from 11th Garrison Guard Battalion. Renamed as a service battalion and continued to serve in France;
1st (Garrison) Battalion – formed in 1916. Served in France 1916–1918. Renamed 13th (Garrison) Battalion in July 1918;
2nd (Home Service Garrison) Battalion – formed in 1916. Became 17th Battalion Royal Defence Corps in 1917.

Only those Battalions detailed in bold are in France at the correct time according to the newspaper article all the others can be discounted.

Private Sydney Hollis was among the 1.2 million men who volunteered between August and December 1914. As such Private Sydney Hollis would have formed part of Kitchener's "New Army" and would have served in one of the Regiments "Service" Battalions.

14 February – 13 June 1916: actions in the Spring of 1916.

- Enemy diversionary attacks around the Ypres Salient: the Bluff, 14 February – 2 March 1916;

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
172nd Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers
V Corps (Fanshawe)
3rd Division
17th (Northern) Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED.

- Enemy diversionary attacks around the Ypres Salient: the action of St Eloi craters, 27 March – 16 April 1916;

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
172nd Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers
V Corps (Fanshawe)
3rd Division
Canadian Corps (Alderson)
2nd Canadian Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED

- The German attack at Vimy Ridge, 21 May 1916;

The above involved:
Third Army (Allenby)
V Corps (Wilson)
47th (2nd London) Division
XVII Corps (Byng)
25th Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED

- The Battle of Mount Sorrel, 2-13 June 1916.

The above involved:
Second Army (Plumer)
XIV Corps (the Earl of Cavan)
20th (Light) Division
Canadian Corps (Byng)
1st Canadian Division
2nd Canadian Division
3rd Canadian Division

North Staffordshire Regiment NOT INVOLVED.

You may note Raggy that these were all German Attacks. In fact Raggy there were NO attacks by the British Army in the period Private Sydney Hollis and his best friend (Who for some reason has no name) were supposed to have been ordered "over the top".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:26 AM

And the next balls-up? The public sector pay cap. She is in a position in which there is no good choice for her. Just watch her make the worst one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:23 AM

Well, Teribus, I think many Tories realise that Theresa May is not only a loser but also a balls-up expert. "Brexit means brexit" was a balls-up, calling the election was a balls-up, the manifesto was a balls-up, trying to make herself presidential was a balls-up, the emphasis on attacking Corbyn's character was a balls-up, her post-election Downing Street speech was a balls-up, not talking to the Grenfell residents was a balls-up, the choice of the white, male, upper middle-class judge is looking like a balls-up.   She is likely to lose the next election whenever it comes. The hard men would rather that happened sooner than later. They would gamble on Corbyn making such a hash of things that the Tory hegemony would quickly return. Only takes a handful of rebels to ditch her. She's toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:10 AM

PS The officer enquired "What's that matter with your mate"

In your haste to try and discredit the soldier you cannot even read the article correctly.

Quelle surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:03 AM

The North Staffordshire Regiment
Battalions of the Regular Army
1st Battalion
August 1914 : at Buttevant. Part of 17th Brigade in 6th Division. Moved to Cambridge and quickly on to Newmarket.
12 September 1914 : LANDED AT ST NAZAIRE.
18 October 1915 : transferred to 72nd Brigade in 24th Division.

Battalions of the Territorial Force
1/5th Battalion
August 1914 : in Hanley. Part of Staffordshire Brigade in North Midland Division. Moved to Luton area and in November 1914 went on to Bishops Stortford.
4 March 1915 : LANDED AT LE HAVRE.
12 May 1915 : formation became the 137th Brigade in 46th (North Midland) Division.
January 1916 : moved to Egypt, returning to FRANCE next month.

8th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Lichfield on 18 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 57th Brigade in 19th (Western) Division.
Moved to Salisbury Plain, went into billets in Bristol in December 1914 and in February 1915 to Weston-super-Mare before going to Tidworth in April.
18 July 1915 : LANDED IN FRANCE.
7 February 1918 : transferred to 56th Brigade in same Division.


9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers)
Formed at Lichfield on 20 September 1914 as part of K3. Moved to South Downs, attached as Army Troops to 22nd Division. Moved to billets in Hastings in December 1914.
20 April 1915 : became Pioneer Bn and transferred to 37th Division.
29 July 1915 : LANDED AT LE HAVRE.

1st (Garrison) Battalion
Formed at South Dalton in April 1916 and MOVED TO FRANCE IN MAY, where it remained. Renamed 13th (Garrison) Bn on 31 July 1918.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:48 AM

Your response is exactly as I expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:38 AM

Raggy, some questions for you

1: How much of that "story" did you check?

2: North Staffordshire Regiment correct?

3: Volunteered and joined up in 1914 correct?

4: The alleged "summary execution" took place 18 months later correct? Which would put it sometime between January 1916 to June 1916.

There is a bit of a problem with that Raggy:
If you look at the Regimental History of the North Staffordshire Regiment (The four Battalions of the Regular Army; The six Battalions of the Territorial Army one of whom were in Ireland in 1916; + the other nine service, reserve and garrison Battalions of the North Staffordshire Regiment), none of them were involved in any attack, suicidal or otherwise, in France in that time frame. This would have been three months after the Battle of Loos in 1915 and before the Battle of the Somme in July 1916.

5: Any explanation why the soldier in question did not mention his best friend's name? Why he could not identify the officer?

6: This Officer asks what is wrong "Mate" then it's "Soldier"

7: Tell me Raggy do you always believe EVERYTHING you read in the newspapers, or just the articles that suit your POV? Don't you question anything??

This was after a cursory examination - I will go through it in more detail - pissing down with rain so it should give me something to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM

Raggytash:
Another liar perhaps
Possibly, possibly not. But not someone who can provide first hand evidence.
The newspaper is reporting what the son says his (dead) father told him. In law this would be classed as 'hearsay'.
There is no way of interrogating the father. It is also possible that he was passing on what he had been told (urban myth) as his own experience to provide a better example of the horrors of war. We will never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 06:32 AM

That may be her best option, Terebus (04 Jul 17 - 04:37 AM), but there is every reason to suspect it wouldn't work, even though I agree few if any Conservatives want an election now - it is why she hasnt been defenistrated already. But there is something in economic theory called 'the tragedy of the commons' and in this context it would lead people to risk calling her bluff. And you should not leave ego of of this. May's reputation is on tatters but given enough time it could recover. To call an election and be remembered as the least successful leader ever and be a case study for PPE for decades to come is not a pill that is easily swallowed: to take in voluntarily would be remarkablw.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 05:20 AM

Another liar perhaps

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 05:02 AM

Big Al Whittle - 03 Jul 17 - 03:41 PM

"well its not impossible Teribus."

Dangerous world that Big Al - where baseless accusations and scurrilous allegations can be levelled that for some reason must not be challenged purely on the basis of them "not being impossible".

The following is a nonsense:

Party A states that Party B was guilty of committing murder based upon the hearsay "eye-witness evidence" of Party C. Yet "eye-witness" Party C cannot provide a single detail relating to the alleged murder - he/she cannot name the victim, cannot state the time, date, or location of where the murder took place - there is not even a body and no corroborating statements from others known to be present - then when pushed on these points Party C changes his/her story to him/her only hearing about such murders, i.e. Party C isn't an "eye-witness" at all. You tell me Big Al if you were Party B would you be happy to be sent down purely on the premise that "it's not impossible" - I know I bloody well wouldn't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:37 AM

Trouble with back bench rebels? Hardly. All May has to do is gather them together and tell them point blank - either get with the programme or I will call an election - an election which at the moment we are guaranteed to lose and which will result in most of you losing your seats - make your mind up chaps.

The above is blatantly obvious to everyone in the Conservative Party which is why there will be no back bench revolt and there will be no General election called anytime in the near future.

A Corbyn "led" Labour Government would be a complete and utter disaster for the country, we are still trying to recover from the shambles the last Labour Government made of our economy.

Hammond has hinted at tax rises if the public sector cap is raised or abolished - fair enough, say most in the expectation that somehow "only the rich will pay" - don't you believe it, the working population of the United Kingdom can give public sector workers anything they wish to - as long as the working population of the United Kingdom realises that EVERYBODY will have to pay for it. MY suggestion is that we switch to the Scandinavian model so favoured by the SNP - Base Rate of Tax 38% (That is everybody by the way - In Norway if they want something and vote for it - they pay for it, unlike us the debt is not kicked down the street like a can for future generations to pay off) - That should give public sector workers a good deal and maintain their superior "protected" pension arrangements while the private sector struggles along with everybody having to take out private pension plans (to keep them in old age when the State Pension finally becomes extinct) where Corbyn has stated that he intends taxing your contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 04:34 AM

The point is that our elected representatives should do the job they are paid handsomely for with the help of their army of paid advisors.

Their job is to enact the will of the people.

The will of the people was to put it to a referendum, and the will of the majority was exit.


"I have always said that the electorate on both sides were misinformed and manipulated.

You have always been wrong.
The case was put to them by both sides as in any election campaign or jury trial.
Controversial claims from both sides were challenged by both sides.
It was very difficult to avoid being informed during the campaign.
You have no case that the electorate was misinformed.
Information was everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:19 PM

Another thing that is clear is that the voices proclaiming that the Conservatives won because they has the most seats and votes and that Labour lost are becoming aware that, while numerically true, the situation is far more subtle and nuanced than that. The public sector pay issue is a good example that winning and losing may be rather different than first appearances.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 05:06 PM

Well she's going to struggle like mad with her own backbenchers, in particular the right-wing hawks. That's why she called the last one, to see them off, and that notion went belly-up. She's in a much worse position with them than before.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:57 PM

you reckon there'll be another election soon - even after the DUP deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

Anyway, May looks like she's going to screw up now on public sector pay. The issue has now gone so much upfront that, if she doesn't accept the review bodies in full right now, she is going to lose tbe next election, which could be very soon. The review bodies, though in the back pocket of the government anyway, are now looking positively saintly. Just a reminder of how they were resented when they were first foisted on the public sector in a blatant attempt to emasculate the trade unions and destroy collective bargaining. The alarm bells about this are ringing in the heads even of numpties such as Gove and Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:41 PM

well its not impossible Teribus. one thing my Dad always taught me was that history books on the subject of war are rubbish. the truth doesn't fit on a page or a photograph or a film - he always said , it misses the smell of corpses for a start.

you were either there, or you weren't.

not worth arguing about. there can be no way to prove or disprove the story.

however i tend to think - think of the worst scenario you can imagine, and multiply by ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 03:15 PM

So, Teribus is going on about something in an entirely different thread on a comment made by Musket who is not even here. Dick is going on about how boring the thread is without even contributing to it and the thread has turned into one about elements of WW1 without Keith even being here! Definite proof that anything can and often does happen regadless of what is predicted.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

I am reading a book called The Trumpet Major, by Hardy, it is more interesting than this thread, good night

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 01:46 PM

Don't worry Mr. Freeman your post speaks volumes about you.

If (which I doubt) meant frustrated with below the line here and often wondering why I've never fully escaped here I guess you would be right.

It's funny looking back here with my history. I knew the good times, eg. Mudcat radio, chatting to others on ICQ, staying up to play (and even was involved in helping the original hereme before paltalk) songs with others and meeting a e people. Some of it was once just good naive fun.

Of course I progressed to rows, bits I'd stand by and bits I deeply regret but even through the BS wars, I'd not envisaged what is now below the line being so predominantly fixed position politics with name calling and accusations of "liar" so often tossed in for good measure...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:57 PM

Yes Big Al, but without providing any proof or corroboration Jim Carroll and Musket made repeated allegations that British Officers and "special squads" of British Military Police summarily executed British soldiers who did not get out of their trenches quick enough.

When asked to provide details of any such instance over a number of threads where these baseless allegations were levelled, neither could provide a shred of evidence to back their claims up. Both myself and Keith A researched the matter thoroughly and could find no record of any such execution ever taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:06 PM

i think summary executions are an inevitable part of all wars. its what its about. you're there to kill them . they're there to kill you.

surely that much is uncontroversial.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 12:00 PM

Don't worry Mr. Freeman your post speaks volumes about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:52 AM

Opps and never meant to post that - was just typing in my own anger at reading to delete but Turdulous, Terry Bus etc. We can all make up but it grates after a while...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:47 AM

ffs TurdulouS T

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM

Oh dear Shaw and Raggy have run up another blind alley and are about to get slaughtered again.

I am described as being "unbelievable" because I tend to put credence in stories the facts of which can be verified by multiple sources and I dismiss vague stories told to besmirch reputations of those who can no longer defend themselves, stories the details of which cannot be substantiated or verified. I'd say it is you pair who are truly unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:43 AM

Why not start a thread to talk about that stuff?

If we don't get back to politics I'd suggest this thread be shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM

Really Raggy - care to give us an example quoting the entire text of any such post, As stated to Shaw, the only occasions I have done so when Jom and the Musktwats were trying to peddle the yarn about summary executions.