BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 10:34 AM

The first mention of the term gullible can be found here, not from Dave.

Yes. And I did not suggest that Dave had ever used the word, so what is your point Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM

us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible

That's only one of your sterling qualities, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM

The first mention of the term gullible can be found here, not from Dave.

"Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?
Unbelievable.

You are!
Every election campaign and every jury trial is like that.

Each side has the opportunity to challenge the claims of the other side, and the electorate are quite capable of weighing the claims and counter claims.

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system, and us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible and confused.
You really are elitist"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:16 AM

The term "Gull" (simpleton - fool) is dated from somewhere between 17th-19th century by the Dictionary of Historical Slang, but seems to have overlooked Thomas Dekker's 'Gulls Hornbook" (publisheshed sometime in the mid 1500s
An 1872 edition of the Hornbook is one of the prides of our book collection
The term was used by Shakespeare and is said to have medieval origins - possibly Celtic (Welsh or Cornish)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:05 AM

The fact is that I never quoted him saying it. I quoted what he said exactly and put it in quotes so there could be no mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:52 AM

The fact remains that Dave did not use the word gullible and as normal you cannot accept that you were wrong to accredit him with it.

Thus you will continue to prevaricate ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

The word gullible was not recorded until 1818, many years after Johnson's death.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:50 AM

"Subsequent compilers, out of respect for the great man, also omitted the word and to this day it appears in no dictionary."
Not really -t was omitted from later dictionaries because it was considered a "low word" - a corruption of "cull" - not overlooked, rejected
"no dictionary."
You mean it was omitted from all Johnson's dictionaries, of course!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:33 AM

You presume wrong.
Here is a history lesson for you Rag.
When Johnson compiled the first dictionary, he somehow overlooked and omitted the word "gullible."

Subsequent compilers, out of respect for the great man, also omitted the word and to this day it appears in no dictionary.

So, is it a word Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 07:27 PM

I presume that NFI indicates "No f*****g idea.

I thus presume that you cannot answer the question with any honesty.

I am not at all surprised with this response, of all the posters on this site, honesty has never been your forte.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:10 PM

Insofar as there is any difference between being gullible and being manipulated I suppose that lies in the implication that a gullible person is particularly easy to manipulate. That is a very subjective distinction - in practice it would come down to whether someone is more easily manipulated than I think I am myself. How long is a piece of string?

If the alternative to being gullible is to be cynical, there is something to be said for being gullible. But the fact that all of us are gullible compared with someone else implies that in virtually all circumstances we should not be held too rigidly to our initial decision. For some reason it seems to be felt by some people that this should not apply in the case of a referendum in which we have relinquished significant rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:55 PM

NFI Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

Still in charge Jom, still in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:42 PM

As far as I am aware professor Dave has not used the term "gullible"

If I am incorrect please provide the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:52 PM

Should read 200 charges, five murders
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:45 PM

Former UVF member and supergrass Gary Haggerty has just spent today in court confessing to his terrorist crimes , including 200 counts of murder – it took two hours to read out the charges and for him to respond "guilty".
Given the DUP's past involvement with the UVF and the efforts that were made to link Corbyn with Sinn Fein and The Troubles, where does this leave Blunderwoman May?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM

Read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:26 AM

I will ask again, where has Dave used the term "gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:09 AM

Dave, I quoted verbatim what you said about it, and only gullible people could be manipulated by misleading claims in a campaign.

I did indeed say that, Keith. I used the term ill informed instead of misinformed by mistake so I do apologise for that.

I accept your apology for falsely accusing me, calling me a liar over it, and for inciting Steve to join in the attack on me for something that I did not do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:31 AM

Spin it as you may, Keith. I have not said the things you accuse me of saying. I have never said anyone is gullible. I have never said the electorate are inadequate. I have never said that I am any better or worse than anyone else. In anyone's book that means you have, at best, misrepresented what I did actually say or, at worse, deliberately lied about it. The only thing you can find is an occasion where I used ill informed instead of misinformed. That was a mistake on my part and I accept that I used the wrong term.

Feel free to carry on digging. I shall see how deep you have got later.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:04 AM

You could be manipulated unwillingly without being gullible. Or you could be manipulated because you'd been misinformed, ill-informed or are uninformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:45 AM

In YOUR interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:37 AM

You would have to be gullible to be manipulated by misleading claims Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:21 AM

So, in a nutshell, he did not use the term gullible.

You, nor I, are qualified to re-interpret what someone means.

It would be beneficial to all if you refrained from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

Rag, he did not, but he did say that the people are "manipulated" by misleading campaign claims.
That requires us to be gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

Could you show us where Dave used the term gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:35 AM

Kevin,
say that the campaign by both sides in the referendum were ill-informed and cynically manipulated?

Such campaigns always are, but that was not what was said.
Dave claimed that the electorate are inadequate, so should not be trusted to vote.

Dave, I have always used the term manipulated and never said anything about gullible

I quoted you enough times. You have to be gullible to be manipulated by misleading campaign claims.

Insofar our sources of information are dishoest and manipulative, we are indeed both illinformed and misinformed.

I disagree Kevin. Each side can and does challenge the claims of the other side.

The jury or the electorate have all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides to put in the balance.
Are you really arguing that the electorate are too ill informed and too easily manipulated to vote, or juries to decide?
What do you advocate instead.
The Star Chamber?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:21 AM

Sorry, Greg, think you have it wrong. Elitist and arrogant is used to describe anyone who dares to question anything that their betters tell them. It is neither personal nor nasty of course ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:01 PM

Why on earth should it be seen as elitist and arrogant

To some people, anyone with a functioning brain is an elitist.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:18 PM

Insofar our sources of information are dishoest and manipulative, we are indeed both illinformed and misinformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:25 PM

Bet it's a bloody sight colder than here, Dave. 36 degrees today and humid to boot! 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:20 PM

I did indeed say that, Keith. I used the term ill informed instead of misinformed by mistake so I do apologise for that. I have since used the term misinformed. I have always used the term manipulated and never said anything about gullible. You made that bit up. You also made up that I did not include myself. I always have and you will note that even in your attempt to muddy the waters I used the term "The vast majority, on both sides". Everyone else can see what I have said. You are using your usual tactic of misrepresenting but not making a very good job of it. Also good to see that you are demonstrating how not to personal and nasty by suggesting that everyone is superior to me. Well done!

Off to Scotland some time tomorrow to have even more fun than I am having here so may not post after mid-day tomorrow. Feel free to continue being as personal, nasty and misleading as you like. It seems that most people have your measure now.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 05:49 PM

Why on earth should it be seen as elitist and arrogant to say that the campaign by both sides in the referendum were ill-informed and cynically manipulated? I doubt if there are very many serious commentators who would not agree with this, whichever side they wanted to see win.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:17 AM

Before you accuse me of lying again, this is when you said it.
19 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:15 AM

No.
You said, "The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated. This resulted in a rise in hate crime and the death of a young woman. "

I find that an arrogant and elitists statement to make, and that is why I pursued it.
You clearly did not include yourself whatever you later claimed.

I thought you might eventually admit it was a silly thing to say.
Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM

Ill-informed and misinformed are entirely different things, Keith. I suppose that, when it comes to the interpretation of plain English, you're just uninformed. Or I guess it could be one of those days when you're simply not in form. Just an informal criticism, you understand, for your information only.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:00 AM

You said that you were ill informed and gullible.

No, I said we were all misinformed and manipulated. Why do you lie about what I said when it is only a few posts above? Do you not realise that everyone can see what you are doing?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM

Dave,
So, now my morality is shit and you are superior to me.

No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible. I said that if you are so ill informed and gullible WE ARE ALL superior.

Not just me. (I am not elitist.) Everyone. According to your own assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:35 PM

Who would you rather have in your corner? Jezzer or Bozzer?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:06 PM

So, now my morality is shit and you are superior to me. And you accuse me of being personal and nasty. Good job I am not easily offended.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:22 PM

Knock it off, Keith. You're being stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:03 PM

....superior that is!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM

If you are ill informed and manipulated, we all are.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

We will have to remember not to take seriously anything you say then.

Please feel free. Anything to make you feel superior :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:32 AM

I just said the electorate were misinformed and manipulated. I have not once excluded myself

We will have to remember not to take seriously anything you say then.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:08 AM

I said it was customary in the sense that that is the normal way we settle this kind of problem in daily life. I did not feel it necessary to elaborate, since it is pretty evident that it's not common practise in relation to elections. It seems to me a fair way to respond to the anger many people would feel if their initial victory was reversed.

Having several votes in a row is of course common practice in many electoral systems - for example in France, where a two stage presidential election has recemtly been followed by a two stage parliamentary election.

Admittedly Brenda from Bristol would be enraged, but it seems to me that putting up with extra votes in order to reach some kind of consensus or at least shared acceptance of the final result would be worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 08:19 AM

Lizzie to take over

Couldn't be any worse

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:05 AM

I think you will find that you claimed the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated, unlike yourself!

I have never claimed that. Please provide a link to where I said it. I just said the electorate were misinformed and manipulated. I have not once excluded myself from being one of the electorate. I still don't know if I was right to vote the way I did and probably never will.

Yes, Teribus. I interpreted it as a joke. You didn't. Many jokes are based on double meanings. I suppose only Kevin knows whether he seriously meant we should hold 3 referendums every time.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

Gnome - excellent rule in communication and interaction:

Say exactly what you mean - And mean exactly what you say

Your interpretation of what YOU THINK was meant can only cause confusion, misunderstanding and trouble. IIRC I think in days gone by that was why French was chosen as the language of diplomacy - because it was a far more specific and accurate language to put your meaning across.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:02 AM

I think you will find however that I have never claimed to be any more clever than anyone else.

I think you will find that you claimed the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated, unlike yourself!