BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM

the schools are so busy doing black this and black that (of course, no "white" stuff, THAT would be racist, yeah, right) that what chance do the kids have of thinking of themselves as people? -Mrrzy

Mrrzy, are you saying that the dominant curriculum of public schools that you are aware of in the South are Afrocentric and not Western Eurocentric?

Is the black this and black that which these schools are doing a part of the regular everyday curriculum of subjects-such as history and English literature, music, and art- or are the black this and that supplemental activities that occur on selected times of the year such as Martin Luther King Jr Day or during Black History month?

That's how it is where I come from {the North}.

And Mrrzy, are you saying that teachers in the schools that you referred to spend as much time teaching the history of West African civilizations such as Songhay and ancient Ghana as they spend teaching the history of Western European nations such as England and France? Are you saying that students in those schools would be able to rattle of the names of the capitol cities of two or more present day African nations as easily as they would be able to give the names of the capitols of two or more present day Western European nations> Ditto for famous kings, queens, artists, musicians, scientists from those two parts of the world.

I just don't think so.

As for the end part of your statement that these kids {who attend schools which are so busy doing black this and that} that they don't have time to think of themselves as people, I'm assuming that you did not mean that people of Black ancestry weren't people.

I suppose [I hope] that you meant that you wanted these students to think of themselves as "just people" without any reference to any racial grouping.

While I applaud the idealism in that sentiment, I don't think it's very realistic.

I believe that institutional racism and personal racism are still deeply rooted in American culture. I believe that most American public school curriculum focus 90% or more of the academic subjects on Anglo-American culture and Western European history and cultural achievements. Furthermore, I believe that when no racial origin is given for a subject {for instance, algebra}, students who are trained to think that everything worthwhile came from Europe will automatically assume that Europe was where such subjects were founded.

Given all of this, it's my position that there needs to be more quality, in depth and not touristy teaching of and integration of African [and Native American and Asian and Pacific Islander centered subjects and not less.

I also believe that all children {and all teens and all adults regardless of their race} should be taught and should hear repeatedly that their racial identity and other folks' racial identity should have neither positive or negative valuation.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

the individual originally under discussion here is NOT a United States citizen or resident Most people (by a long long way) aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:58 PM

Growing up in sub-Saharan Africa, I was always amazed that Americans of mixed race thought they were black. They sure found out different when they came "back" to Africa - where they were sho'nuff not black.
But I've talked to some of my "black" friends here in the States, and have heard, yeah, we know we have some white ancestry, but since that came from slave-owning rapists, why should we acknowledge it. Made a little sense... but only a little. I have lived in the Southern US now for, oh, 20-some years, and I *still* don't think of American blacks as either black or "african-american" - on the other hand, the schools are so busy doing black this and black that (of course, no "white" stuff, THAT would be racist, yeah, right) that what chance do the kids have of thinking of themselves as people?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

Tom.....Jeff has a lot of things against him. California born, he started racing at age 6 in quarter midgets. His family moved to Indiana to advance his career. By age 15 he was racing and winning in Sprint cars, 800 horsepower fire breathing beasts associated with "real men."......and he was "The Kid." He went to NASCAR and became friends with Dale Earnhardt at his peak and then proceeded to take his crown, something Dale's legions of fans could never accept or abide. He passed Earnhardt's win total this year and will soon takeover the record for modern era wins which are getting harder and harder to come by.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

There is no such thing as a "white" person, with the possible exception of those afflicted with extreme albinism. Put your hand on a piece of typing paper or, if you spend a lot of time out in the sun, hold a piece of paper up against your bare butt.

Tiger Woods, BTW, is the best ever Thai golfer!

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

Spaw ~ what's Jeff Gordon's problem?

I know he ain't black; is he a (gasp!) Yankee?

Tom H
(not a motorhead)

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:44 PM

Well, yeah, I almost forgot that the individual originally under discussion here is NOT a United States citizen or resident, so American notions/definitions of racial identity are somewhat beside the point.

Only somewhat so, however: Great Britain certainly has its own part in the evolution of these ideas, as the instigator and principal operator of the slave trade that brought all those kidnapped Africans to the New World.

Certainly, before 1776, all those rich white planters who bought and managed African slaves in Virginia and the Carolinas were Englishmen who would only gradually assume a newly created national identity.

The English (and/or English-speaking) slaveowners of colonial America maintained and promoted a uniquely inhuman and impersonal version of race relations. The Spanish and French ruling classes also practiced slavery and other forms of exploitation elsewhere throughout the hemisphere, but (like the ancient Greeks and Romans and countless other slaveholding societies throughout history) they recognized the humanity of their enslaved workers to an extent that the English and English/Americans never did.

In Louisiana and the Caribbean, overprivileged white Frenchmen customarily kept African/Creole mistresses and maintained dual households, providing their mixed-race offspring with educational and other opportunities fairly similar to what they gave their "legitimate" children, the white babies borne by wives who had been assigned to these men via arranged marriages.

In the English-speaking American South, white landowners who impregnated black women did so to "breed" human livestock, often by force, and then consigned their own children to lifetimes of slavery. This is something I find almost impossible to understand, but it seems obvious that this custom could exist only because these men were convinced, by the unanimous opinion of the society in which they lived, that their African workers were something less than human.

It's a very nasty legacy to try and overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM

"still deeply racist"? Is it that bad?

Is the Pope a Catholic?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM

In this case, I really wouldn't read too much into it as Wesley alluded to above. He's right. It is all about the "novelty" of it. If a half Eskimo/half French became the Most Valuable Cricketeer in the world, would you focus on his French ancestry?

Racing has never been a Black sport, and it ain't real strong on women either. It has pretty much been an Anglo white man's game with a passing nod to Latinos. Although F1 still has more attendance, they do it on a world scale. The true 800 pound gorilla in auto racing today is NASCAR. As NASCAR has expanded its fan base and overall popularity, it instituted a "Drive for Diversity" program to help advance the careers of women and minorities. Not much has changed but the effort is there to some degree.

Wendell Scott, a black man from Virginia, competed pretty well back in the 60's and 70's and actually won a race operating on a true shoestring budget. But NASCAR was also a regional sport and Jeff Gordon, one of the greatest drivers in any era and any form of racing, had a lot harder time being accepted in the 90's than Scott did in the 50's. LOL....Frankly, Jeff, for all his success, is still roundly booed at every race.

And don't mention the name of Tim Richmond, a spectacular racer in the later 70's and early 80's who was a fan favorite for his great ability and Hollywood looks and lifestyle, Tim died of AIDS when the word was only whispered. He was completely shunned by the NASCAR establishment. They have tried to make amends since, but for his fans, it is too little and too late.

So yeah.....The racing world will focus on Hamilton's parentage. Its a sport sadly behind the times in social grace but its trying to join the 21st Century. I know that many of you see no point in the sport, deny it is a sport, find it barbaric, etc., etc., and blah, blah, blah.

If you have gasoline for blood, you feel differently.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:14 PM

He's not African, and he's not American, not everything can be defined in those terms.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

I was taking a course in "Race Relations" in college and the prof brought this up. I asked him what the Census Bureau did when they reached Hawaii and he replied, "Gave up."

Every human being on Earth is red inside. Please trust me on this and don't go around trying to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

"still deeply racist"? Is it that bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:56 PM

In my opinion, the USA definition for who is or is not Black {meaning African American} is racist.

I'm referring to the view that one drop of "Black blood" makes a person Black, regardless how much White ancestry a person has, and regardless which race that person's biological mother is or a person's biological father is, and regardless what that person looks like.

I believe that Black racial membership is defined so loosely defined because the definition for who is White is so tightly defined. In other words, the definition for who is Black {in the USA} is racist because the definition for who is White is racist.

In the United States {and elsewhere?} at one time, a White person could have no other racial ancestry. At some point in the 20th century, it became fashionable for some White people to acknowledge and/or claim Native American ancestry, and perhaps some Chinese or Native Hawaiian ancestry. These people claiming this "non-White" ancestry would still be considered White if they only had a small degree of "non-White" ancestry and if they "looked" White. However, it is rare in the USA present or past that a person is {would have been} accepted as White if they acknowledge/d or claim/ed any Black African ancestry, regardless of how they look/ed.

In my opinion, a person who has one White biological parent and one biological parent who is Black {or who has some Black ancestry} should be allowed to consider him or her self White no matter how dark their complexion is, no matter how frizzy their hair is, and no matter how his or her other physical features look.

But that would be too much like right for any nation that is still deeply racist. And that would be extremely problematic for any nation whose people still largely rely on visual clues to determine the racial categories of other individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:47 PM

White: a member of the Caucasoid race...

There are white people, black people, on and on... it is indeed a rainbow. But, looks do not separate us. Only thoughts do. And, although most of us think alike, that being peace and harmony, there are things that do separate us. Religeon, greed...

So sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

Too many Dragnet episodes

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:28 PM

Why do Americans keep using that term "Caucasian"? It should belong alongside "Ethiopian" in the museum shelf of daft ethnic labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:53 PM

In the US, anyone with any African ancestry is considered to be a member of the minority group generally designated as African-American or Black, formerly Negro, Colored, etc. This undoubtedly is because our laws, back during the time of slavery and also during the more recent "Jim Crow" era, defined anyone with one-sixteenth African "blood" (i.e., DNA or ancestry) as "Negro." That's a person with fifteen white great-great-grandparents and one black one.

For this reason, I believe, all Americans ~ black or white, young or old, prejudiced or not ~ seem to "recognize" any person with the slightest visible trait signaling African ancestry to be Black.

I'm sure that things are much different in, say, South Africa, where there were also racial laws, but a different set of laws that differentiated among three groups: white, black, and "colored," i.e., of mixed African and European heritage. South Africans of all races, therefore, grew up with a completely different view of race, and recognizing a different set of visual clues for a given individual's racial identity.

A South African would view most African-Americans as "colored" rather than "black," because purely African ancestry is actually quite rare on this side of the ocean.

This is a sore subject to many folks, because much of the Caucasian element in the African-American gene pool is the result of slaveowner rape; nevertheless, almost all American "blacks" are actually, to some extent, of mixed heritage. (There is plenty of Native-American "Indian" ancestry among African-Americans, too, along with the European element.)

Nowadays, whether a person considers himself "biracial" or "black" depends mostly upon how recent his Caucasian forebearer(s) entered the gene pool. People like Barack Obama (white mother, black African father) and Derek Jeter (white mother, mostly-black African-American father) are seen by many (if not by themselves) as "biracial," not "black."

On the other hand, the large "Creole" population of New Orleans consists largely of people who are partly black and mostly white, and all of whose parents, grandparents, and great-grands were also of mixed heritage and therefore ~ according to the laws and customs of their time and place ~ seen by themselves and by others as "black," even though many are quite aware of numerous white ancestors, and some even know some white cousins, even entire white "branches" of their families.

Yes, of course, we all know (or should know) that "race" does not have any real scientific basis, and that in truth there is only one race, the human race. But on some level racial differences continue to exist, even if we can come to an understanding that the differences are primarily cultural and not genetic. Taking this relatively "enlightened" viewpoint into consideration, I can see how a person growing up in a household with one white and one black parent would understand him/herself as "biracial." By the same token, another youngster who is also half-black and half-white, but in this case because all eight of his/her great-grandparents were half-black and half-white, that kid would have grown up in a solidly African-American community and would identify simply as Black, not as "biracial."

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:53 PM

The point is - why not? Why is Tiger Woods thought of as black? Because most golfers are white. People will focus on that which is different. If a half white half black folk singer released a recording of Child Ballads - what do you suppose people would focus on? Not the white half I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM

Generations ago when African-American slaves were valued at X percentage of people of white European extraction, a very small amount of 'black' blood condemned the person to be called black and therefore not only of lesser value but also subject to the accepted exploitation. It seems like we still cling to that standard, whether it is voiced or not.

I remember stories that taught us that a "half-breed", whether Indian or black, was of vicious temperament, amoral, sly, devious and totally untrustworthy. I don't suppose it ever occurred to anyone to suspect that the treatment they received at the hands of the ruling class had anything to do with their perceived temperament.

Who was it who said something to this effect: When I reflect that God is just, I despair of the human race.

It seems to me that it was Thomas Jefferson.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

Tunesmith, good point.

I've just looked up politically incorrect and Wikipedia says the term politically incorrect is used to refer to language or ideas that may cause offense or that are unconstrained by orthodoxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

Well, when we discriminate against people because of their origin, we're usually very good at discriminating against them if only one parent was a minority. In Germany, they exterminated many with only one Jewish parent. In the U.S., they lynched many whose heritage wasn't purely black.

Whether a person with two or only one minority parent overcomes that discrimination, it's cause for celebration.

And if you want to refer to a person as a half-breed, then in most cases that's even MORE discriminatory.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM

Ratings?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

Wesley S: THE POINT IS, why are they calling him black?

Subject: RE: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:17 PM

But there's nothing unusual about a man born of white parents winning a car race.

Subject: BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:07 PM

I've seen reported, in various newspapers ,that if Lewis Hamilton had won the Driving World Racing Car Championships then he would have been the first black person to do so. This surely should be seen as, at the very least un-pc, but, more obviously racist. Lewis - like Daley Thompson and Kelly Holmes - has a white and black parent. So why are they called black? We might just as well as call them white!