Remembrance Sunday (UK)

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: mg
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:59 PM

can someone put a tune to this? Or has someone? mg

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: mg
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:23 PM

The Changelings


R.N.V.R, Sea Constables


Or ever the battered liners sank
With their passengers to the dark
I was head of a Walworth Bank,
And you were a grocer's clerk.

I was a dealer in stocks and shares,
And you in butters and teas;
And we both abandoned our own affairs
And took to the dreadful seas.

Wet and worry about our ways--
Panic, onset and flight--
Had us in charge for a thousand days
And thousand-year-long night.

We saw more than the nights could hide--
More than the waves could keep--
And--certain faces over the side
Which do not go from our sleep.

We were more tired than words can tell
While the pied craft fled by,
And the swinging mounds of the Western swell
Hoisted us Heavens-high...

Now there is nothing -- not even our rank--
To witness what we have been;
And I am returned to my Walworth Bank
And you to your margarine!

Rudyard Kipling

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: mg
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:12 PM

You have to ask for an moderated thread and then it is a good idea to start an identical unmoderated thread and let people choose which one they want to respond to. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going to happen. Read Kipling's poem about the jackals. mg

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 06:41 AM

""The idea of servicemen misled by politicians may apply to Germany in both World Wars. They were encouraged to believe that they had a right to invade and dominate other nations by virtue of their innate superiority.""

You know very well, given that I specifically named the two wars I was talking about, that I have no issue with the legitimacy of either world war. My original comment was ""All the more reprehensible then that their lives are wasted, in the pursuit of political advantage and adventure, by men who are not fit to clean their boots.

I mean of course the politicians who lie to the public in order to indulge in wars of acquisition (Iraq!), and worse, wars with no genuine purpose other than to keep the populace scared enough to give up their civil liberties, in exchange for a spurious promised security (Afghanistan!).""

I stand by that comment, simply because I passionately believe that our young men are being sold down the river, and I further believe that there is nothing wrong with saying that I honour most sincerely the sacrifices of the past, and I wholeheartedly support the troops who are fighting and dying right now, but we need to insist that our governments use these lives only in the pursuit of honourable goals.

If that's undignified, then I apologise Lizzie, but it's what I believe. Nobody should die in a quest for oil, or votes.

Don T

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:51 AM

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing,
    From the Second World War,
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:35 AM

The idea of servicemen misled by politicians may apply to Germany in both World Wars. They were encouraged to believe that they had a right to invade and dominate other nations by virtue of their innate superiority.
The British people did not need persuading that resisting cruel and agressive invaders was the right thing to do, and politicians own sons joined the fight.
That belief persisted even in 1940 when defeat seemed inevitable and they could only hope to go down fighting.
Both my parents joined the RAF at the outbreak of war. When the entire nation busting might of the Luftwaffe was concentrated on a few airfield in Southern England, my mum and dad quietly did their jobs amid the carnage.
To say that they were tricked into it by politicos is absurd.
To suggest that they joined for the joy of killing is disgusting.
And of course my folks were unexceptional.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 07:02 PM

Amen to that last bit, ref. One of my favouite songs is Peter Bellamy's verion of Tommy.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Ref
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:56 PM

For the person who took the swipe at Alvin York above, York was no "happy killer." He was a poorly educated man from the Appalachian hollows who followed his orders and did his best for the men around him. After his heroic stand, he spent the next two days desperately searching the battlefield for someone, in any uniform, he might save. He suffered from PTSD (as we now call it) and nightmares for the rest of his life.

I've never worn a uniform, but those who have not and consider themselves superior to those who do sicken and anger me.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Ref
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:37 PM

I'm with Don. The lives of our young men and women who volunteer should not be cheaply sold by politicians. That doesn't mean that their sacrifices are without meaning, or "in vain." No soldier who has died following the lawful orders of his superiors in what THAT SOLDIER considers to be the cause of freedom has died in vain. Respect and be grateful for our security. Don't worship war.

I HAVE a rendezvous with Death        
At some disputed barricade,        
When Spring comes back with rustling shade        
And apple-blossoms fill the airâ€"        
I have a rendezvous with Death               5
When Spring brings back blue days and fair.        

It may be he shall take my hand        
And lead me into his dark land        
And close my eyes and quench my breathâ€"        
It may be I shall pass him still.               10
I have a rendezvous with Death        
On some scarred slope of battered hill,        
When Spring comes round again this year        
And the first meadow-flowers appear.        

God knows ’t were better to be deep               15
Pillowed in silk and scented down,        
Where Love throbs out in blissful sleep        
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,        
Where hushed awakenings are dear …        
But I’ve a rendezvous with Death               20
At midnight in some flaming town,        
When Spring trips north again this year,        
And I to my pledged word am true,        
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

Alan Seeger

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

I, for one, can not comprehend why anyone would want to join the army. If there was ever a job where you are expected to leave your brains at the entrance gate it's soldiering.

My father was in the army and I think that is a misguided statement to make. Serving in the forces is a job that somebody has to do. Men and women defending this country and putting their lives on the line for others. There was a time when people didn't even have a choice.

I agree with Keith A. This thread should have been moderated.

Lizzie, thank you for starting this thread as a way for us to remember the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war and for us to thank them for those sacrifices.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

That's very dodgy!!

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:18 PM

There are precedents for threads like this to be moderated.
thread.cfm?threadid=96300&messages=29
thread.cfm?threadid=86216&messages=38
Too late now.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: the fence
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:10 PM

Have you ever been in any of the 'forces' Tunesmith?

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

You can't start a thread and then say we only want postings that are sympathetic to the feelings of the person who started the thread! Any thread must be an invitation to debate! I think a carte blanche praise for all our soldiers in all wars is dodgy! I, for one, can not comprehend why anyone would want to join the army. If there was ever a job where you are expected to leave your brains at the entrance gate it's soldiering.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:24 PM

I agree with you, Keith....and...thank you. x

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 03:18 PM

Sorry Lizzie.
I will reply to Don by PM.
I just hoped for this to be a Remembrance thread, not one that argues over the politics of past conflicts.
Some people just can not settle for that can they.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 03:08 PM

Excuse me, but....could we please return the dignity to this thread.

I truly didn't start it for 'fighting' amongst posters, but for thanks to those who put their lives on the line for so many of us, in past wars..and in present ones too.


Peace...please.
Thank you.


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:59 PM

""too stupid to know that it was the wrong war.""

""were led like sheep for a false cause.""

""Like comic Henny Pennies they rushed around and got killed protecting us from a non existant threat.""


Please point out my references to:-

1. Stupidity
2. Sheep
3. Comic Henny Pennies

Elsewise keep your big mouth shut till you have something sensible to say. That should keep you quiet till about 2020.

My adverse coments were all about the politicos, and all I said about the soldiers was that they carried out "THEIR DUTIES AS THEY WERE SWORN TO DO WHEN THEY JOINED."

What is there of disrespect in that statement?

You seem to feel that you have some right to impose your own terms and opinions on the members of this forum.

Well, NOT THIS MEMBER!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:20 PM

"their lives are wasted, in the pursuit of political advantage and adventure"

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:18 PM

"sent them, and others, to the wrong wars for the wrong reasons "

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

""I just thought we might have a thread, at the time of Remembrance, to honour the fallen of this country without you sticking your enormous BUT in.
They were brave, BUT too stupid to know that it was the wrong war.
They died for us, BUT were led like sheep for a false cause.
Like comic Henny Pennies they rushed around and got killed protecting us from a non existant threat.""

From what twisted perversion of ANY of my posts did you manage to glean that heap of crap?

It is SO far from what I said that it doesn't merit a serious response.

You are one seriously twisted soul.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:54 PM

Every army gets a few like that.
It is a gross insult to suggest that a significant number of 1914 volunteers joined for that.
Such would have joined anyway, and the number of volunteers was many times the prewar number.
Mostly they did not like Belgium being invaded and were angered by the atrocities caried out on Belgian civillians.
Again I suggest starting a different thread for slagging off and insulting those we are remembering here.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 01:42 PM

You hear all sorts of different stories about the attitudes of young soldiers heading off to France in WW1. There seems to have been a lot of excitement at the prospect of action; the chance to shoot a German or two - or more! I always think of that sickening scene in Sergeant York were the "hero" is popping off German soldiers like ducks on a lake. And, don't forget, back in 1914, many of the lads going off to war would have been the equivalent of todays violent, nasty youths who couldn't wait to get a gun in there hand and shoot something.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:39 PM

"Here dead lie we because we did not choose
to live and shame the land from which we sprung.
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose;
but young men think it is, and we were young."

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 12:13 PM

To those who say that wars should not be fought.....well, sometimes, so sadly, *some* wars DO have to be fought.

As my Dearest Dad once said, 'Sometimes, Liz, some things are so evil, that you cannot walk away.'

IF he and his friends, and all those many millions of others HAD walked away,back in 1939, then this thread would probably not even be here...open discussion not allowed, freedom of thought and speech not permitted...etc..etc..

We would all be living in a very different world.

Thank God that so many men and women decided to walk towards, and not away, from an Evil that would have damned the world for eternity.

War is never wanted, but sometimes, heartbreakingly, it is necessary.


From an earlier thread of mine 1943 'Dear Old Chap...' comes a letter from my Uncle Gray, written during WWII:

I found this the other day, when going through a box of letters of my Dad's.   It's from his twin brother, Uncle Gray, written to his twin, Harry, in 1943 whilst 'somewhere' out in the Middle East...and I thought some may enjoy reading it. Uncle Gray was in the Army and my Dad was a Navigator in the RAF.




"Dear Old Chap,

Thanks for your letter of 2 weeks which arrived several days ago. Forgive me for the delay which was caused through bullshit parades and inspections by Generals etc. We have had a pretty busy time lately and incidentally were the first tanks to get to Sfax as we were the first to reach Tripoli. We passed through Sfax and had a few days of rest, the town was out of bounds immediately afterwards and except for seeing it when passing through, I haven't had an opportunity of walking around. No doubt you have been through it yourself so I won't say anything about it except for the wonderful welcome the inhabitants gave us. We saw some real smiling faces and enthusiastic V signs. What a pleasant relief to get sincere thanks and a welcome after the sour faces in other countries.

Eggs have been literally showered on us and I am expecting an unpleasant aftermath if I continue to eat them on the same scale as I have for the past few days. Our mail has been held up somewhere but the last, received over a week ago, gave good news of all at home, even Ron wrote an Air Mail Letter Card and strafed me heavily for, as he put it, "scathing remarks" in an Airgraph. As a matter of fact, I didn't think that my remarks were out of place or at all scathing, but I have written to him and poured oil on troubled waters. Auntie Ada also sent an Airgraph stating that she had forwarded some more books, which is very sweet of her.

Jerry will soon be out of Africa, thank God, and perhaps we shall have the good fortune to spend a spot of leave together again.

Your feelings for Dad are similar to my own, old lad. I have often thought that if ever I am blessed with children that I shall be even half as good a father as he is. Even that proportion would make me a damned sight better father than most. Curiously enough I want to return to England more for his sake than Connie's and mine, that sounds a funny statement to make, but we have most of our lives to come yet, whereas his is at its 'sunset'. This blasted war has more bitterness for the older folk like Dad, people who have worked and worried damned hard, who deserve quiet, rest and happiness for the rest of their limited days; we younger people can remake our lives in the many years before us, they haven't the time, nor the strength.

Hiding our affections and scumming sentiment is a bloody silly thing to do, we have all been guilty of it, but I believe we are cured now. This war will have been worth fighting for that reason alone.

The post war years will be terribly difficult at first, for everyone, but the Government cannot afford to make the same mistakes as they did after the last war. Unemployment must be avoided at all cost, firms will have to work all out right from the first day of peace to regain our best overseas trade. The H.S.A. will also be forced to recuperate themselves and the hospitals until the Beveridge Plan takes form which may not be for several years, naturally they will require a staff including many new employees who won't require much training and who can get on with the job. Please don't worry, I feel in my bones that things will turn out alright.

Take care of yourself, old chap
All the best
Gray"



Uncle Gray's hope was for a better world.
It is still up to us to make that part happen.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 09:20 AM

Elegy in a Country Churchyard
(Gilbert Keith Chesterton)

The men that worked for England
They have their graves at home:
And bees and birds of England
About the cross can roam.

But they that fought for England,
Following a falling star,
Alas, alas for England
They have their graves afar.

And they that rule in England,
In stately conclave met,
Alas, alas for England,
They have no graves as yet.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:29 AM

Poem 84 of 230: NATIONALISM WITHOUT CONQUEST

Everything in moderation..?
    Well, with "nationalism" it's true:
It can carry unique cultures on
    But, overdosed, cause their conquest, too.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: eddie1
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 04:24 AM

If we can accept that Mudcat represents a microcosm, similar to the "real world" outside and that wars are fought over greed – greed for power, material gain ("I'm scoring more points than you"), greed to show that I'm more clever, intellectual or intelligent than you and we look at the arguments we at Mudcat get into, from our entrenched beliefs, then it's not surprising that wars continue. Perhaps it's a universal failing in the human race?

Before someone challenges me for having the wrong day, let me make it clear that I'm in the UK, a totally different time zone from the US. It's now just after 0915 on Wednesday 11th November. At 1100, I will sit quietly for 2 minutes and remember. Remember those who have fallen, remember those who lived on for a time, battered and broken in body or in mind, and think of those who have lost, and are continuing to lose, loved ones.

I have no difficulty in wishing at the same time that we could be blessed with peace. This does not mean that I think any less of those I will remember!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:05 AM

I just thought we might have a thread, at the time of Remembrance, to honour the fallen of this country without you sticking your enormous BUT in.
They were brave, BUT too stupid to know that it was the wrong war.
They died for us, BUT were led like sheep for a false cause.
Like comic Henny Pennies they rushed around and got killed protecting us from a non existant threat.

I do not believe that version of history, and collections of their letters do not support it either.
But if I challenge we will just be debating the necessity of this war and that war. There are dozens if not hundreds of such threads you could have used. You just could not be arsed to, or to start yet another one at this time of Remembrance, so you hijacked this one.

However, I concede that not one contributor agrees with me so I will shut up.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:31 PM

""I accept defeat.
We can not honour our fallen without also saying that war is always wrong, therefor they were wrong to fight.
And we must give equal honour to the aggressors who died trying to kill them and enslave their homeland.""

Once again Keith, you completely miss the point.

NOBODY, least of all ME, is saying they were wrong to fight!!

They did what they were sworn to do when they joined.

The bastards that sent them, and others, to the wrong wars for the wrong reasons are the villains of the piece, and if you can't see the difference between that and disrespect for the gallant men who did the dying, then you are as f**ked up as the politicos who still believe that we will tamely swallow their lies.

As to your "wrong thread" comment, where better to protest on their behalf than a place where we are acknowledging their sacrifice in OUR behalf?


Don T.

Subject: Lyr Add: MESOPOTAMIA (Rudyard Kipling)
From: Mr Fox
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:21 PM

MESOPOTAMIA

They shall not return to us, the resolute, the young,
The eager and whole-hearted whom we gave:
But the men who left them thriftily to die in their own dung,
Shall they come with years and honour to the grave?

They shall not return to us, the strong men coldly slain
In sight of help denied from day to day:
But the men who edged their agonies and chid them in their pain,
Are they too strong and wise to put away?

Our dead shall not return to us while Day and Night divide -
Never while the bars of sunset hold.
But the idle-minded overlings who quibbled while they died,
Shall they thrust for high employments as of old?

Shall we only threaten and be angry for an hour?
When the storm is ended shall we find
How softly but how swiftly they have sidled back to power
By the favour and contrivance of their kind?

Even while they soothe us, while they promise large amends,
Even while they make a show of fear,
Do they call upon their debtors, and take counsel with their friends,
To confirm and re-establish each career?

Their lives cannot repay us - their death could not undo -
The shame that they have laid upon our race.
But the slothfulness that wasted and the arrogance that slew,
Shall we leave it unabated in its place?

- Kipling

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:20 PM

even as an American, this thread has moved me to tears. Just the tribute to Harry Patch was enough... but there was more, and I wept again.

Your Remembrance Day is a fine tradition, and I will think of it on our similar days.

Thank you for the moving words...

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: mg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

I guess I thought you would have a formal day off as we do here. mg

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:46 PM

mg: we always do the big march and laying of the wreaths on the nearest Sunday to the 11th, mainly because it is the one day when people are available, and London is relatively quiet. The 11th falls on Wednesday this year and Whitehall will be heaving with traffic and people.

Many people (including me) observe a 2 mins silence at 11am on the 11th as well.

Blessings
Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: mg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM

It is great that you are all remembering the fallen..but I am confused why it is not on NOvember 11, which I will always call Armistice Day. mg

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

I accept defeat.
We can not honour our fallen without also saying that war is always wrong, therefor they were wrong to fight.
And we must give equal honour to the aggressors who died trying to kill them and enslave their homeland.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM

Tonight, on the BBC News I watched the six soldiers who died last week, come home. Five were murdered by their Afghan colleague.

They were flown in to Wooton Bassett, in Wiltshire....


Six soldiers come home...

Eight more soldiers come home, who died in the summer...

The town must be filled with such sorrow. Today, there was barely any space anywhere, the crowds were so deep...One young woman told how she has now lost 23 of her friends in Afghanistan..

And earlier in the day, people had come into the shop where I work...and one man was telling me how his son and his colleagues are driving round in 40 year old trucks. Another lady looked up and said that her daughter was out there for 6 weeks, and they only provided a sleeping bag for her two days before she was due to come home...

Meanwhile, as our troops have also been buying their own flak jackets at times, our politicians, from the top, down....have been removing hundreds of thousands of pounds from the public purse in crooked expenses.....

And our Prime Minister cannot even spell the name of one soldier who died, upsetting his mother almost beyond endurance...




And another tear filled petal fell into the poppy field......

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:53 PM

It is anti-war, Keith, but not anti-remembrance as well. Just pro-truth. Our remebered dead are the ones our enemies prayed for victory over and their remebered dead are the ones we wanted to destroy. Then we both pray for our fallen. It is indeed a day for remembrance and we should never detract from it. Rather, let us add to it and remember all the fallen. After all, we (the global 'we' that is) are responsible for the fallen of both sides. We wanted and prayed for it to happen.

DeG

Subject: Lyr Add: LANGEMARCK (George Papavgeris)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

Langemarck
© Copyright George Papavgeris, November 2003

The guard never changes in Langemarck
Four figures that quiet and motionless stand
No guns, only helmets they hold in their hand
To show their respect
The Langemarck Guardians will never forget.
The guard never changes in Langemarck
Their faces in sombre expression are set
And is it just mourning or is is it regret
But they cannot speak
Their thoughts are a secret that never will leak.

It's never too busy in Langemarck
The visits from home getting fewer each year
Their faces get younger, there's hardly a tear
It seems such a shame
Only granite and metal remembers their name.
And all is in order in Langemarck
Not one of the crosses dares move out of line
And all of the names there in sequence you'll find
But isn't it strange
That even in death the roll-call hasn't changed.

There's fourty-four thousand in Langemarck
Though clever design gives a feeling of peace
Yet still you will find here no welcome release
But only the proof
That generals' dreams are the curse of the youth
As you stroll among graves in Langemarck
And even though you are the only one there
The back of your neck feels a following stare
Though they have no eyes
The look of the Guardians is colder than ice.

CHORUS:
But guilt is not buried in Langemarck
Just those born one side of the border
Who just had to follow an order
In Flanders to finish their days.
And friendships are easy in Langemarck
In one grave the sons of eight mothers
Before death unknown to each other
But friends in their final embrace.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:06 PM

I'm always uneasy about these 2 min silences which always bring to mind Edward VIII's 'something must be done'. And we do nothing but con more young men into getting killed. Visiting the war graves in Normandy is a much more poignant experience. I think I became uneasy when there was a 2 min silence after the dreadful Dunblane killing. I was by the sea and the 2 minutes was heralded by gun fire - just how insensitive can the authorities get; then a thousand screaming seagulls took to the air. The most noisy 2 minutes silence ever. Can't we do something more positive.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:52 PM

There are no winners in war!

Blessings
Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:46 PM

And also remember the young men of Argentina who were murdered by Thatcher in 1982. I dare you to stand by the Malvinas Memorial in BA on April 2 with Malvinas veterans, looking obviously English.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:55 AM

"They're just forgotten bones lying far from their homes
As forgotten as the cause for which they died"
Bogle's lines posted above are false.
The cause is not forgotten. They marched to prevent Europe being conquered by the cruel invading armies that poured out of an aggressive Germany.
The anti Fascist cause is alive and well, not least on this forum.

Neither are they forgotten bones.
In all that list of places their graves are carefully kept and attended, and the numbers making the pilgrimage to visit them grows year on year.
And bugles still call for them from sad shires.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:35 AM

Wrong thread Don.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:14 AM

All these men, whose lives and deaths we commemorate, share a common ideal of service and loyalty to their country.

They deserve our respect and support in whatever actions they are dispatched to undertake. They put themselves in harms way to make OUR lives safer and more secure.

All the more reprehensible then that their lives are wasted, in the pursuit of political advantage and adventure, by men who are not fit to clean their boots.

I mean of course the politicians who lie to the public in order to indulge in wars of acquisition (Iraq!), and worse, wars with no genuine purpose other than to keep the populace scared enough to give up their civil liberties, in exchange for a spurious promised security (Afghanistan!).

We need to impress upon our governments that we KNOW that the best way to avoid terrorist attacks on our homelands is to keep our NOSES out of other countries' business, and our TROOPS at home defending OUR OWN shores.

This is true for Britain, and it is true for the USA, and were it taken to heart by those who rule, we might one day be celebrating, on the 11th November at 11.00am, in remembrance of the last ever soldiers killed in foreign lands.

Don T

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:53 AM

Just start an anti war thread, and argue that peace is much nicer than war.
Nobody actually will argue with you, but at least we will be able to have a Remembrance thread just for Remembrance.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:46 AM

I am not sure you are on this earth or Fullers.

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:39 AM

Anti war sentiments are noble and commendable every day of the year.
We only have one day of Rememberance.
On that one day can we just express gratitude and sorrow for the sacrifices made by members of the armed forces in past and present conflicts?

Subject: Lyr Add: ALL THE FINE YOUNG MEN (Eric Bogle)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:30 AM

One from Mr Bogle - BOTH Great Wars !

ALL THE FINE YOUNG MEN
(Eric Bogle)

They told all the fine young men of when this war is over
There will be peace and the peace will last forever
In Flanders Field, at Lone Pine and Bersheeba
For king and country, for honour and duty
The young men fought and cursed and wept and died
They told all the fine young men of when this war is over
In your country's grateful heart we will cherish you forever
At Tobruk and Alamein, at Bhuna and Kokoda
Like their fathers before, in a world mad with war
The young men fought and cursed and wept and died

For many of those fine young men all the wars are over
They have found peace, it's the peace that lasts forever
When the call comes again they will not answer
They're just forgotten bones lying far from their homes
As forgotten as the cause for which they died

Ah young men, can you see now why they lied

Subject: RE: Remembrance Sunday (UK)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:07 AM

Keith A:
"Anti war sentiments are noble and commendable every day of the year.
We only have one day of Rememberance."

So you won't be joining in two minutes silence tomorrow?