BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,tolerance
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:11 PM

"War is over, if you want it War is over now" John Lennon said that I believe. But does it really matter who said it, but just take it as it is.

Quite simple, but true. Then again people just over complicate things.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

I thought they'd said "Bush's urge"

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:21 PM

So much for Bush's "surge".

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme song challenge
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM

Where has all the hostility gone,
Long time passing,
...

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM

Man. We haven't changed much. In Iraq, where our troops are being shot at by all sides of the conflict, it would be simpler and more accurate to just call them 'the hostiles'.

Bring them home.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Were not the Native Americans dubbed "hostiles" by the Europeans who massacred cheated and almost exterminated them?

Sometimes hostility is the only choice....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM

Hi, eanjay. Hope things are good.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:39 PM

Peace, you're right and you have tried to point it out to us each time.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM

There have been three purposefully hostile threads started by 'Guests' lately. So, the hostility is just beneath the surface. It will emerge.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM

At least he posted under his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM

That was in a hostile tone, Guest :-) Ah, let the man be, he tried to bring the thread back to topic once, but nobody listened, so all he's done join'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM

I think it's sad that we even need titles. We are all Americans, and where our ancestors came from has little to do with where we are today.

So, to carry it just a bit further, whay am I not called English American?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:57 AM

LOL Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

I got so worried about matters of colour, and being PC that I came up with this solution

Scarlet, Lemon, Cerise and Jade,
Tangerine, Purple, Azure,
I think that it's a rainbow, it's a rainbow,
But I'm not quite sure.

I'll get me dreamcoat.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:46 AM

Oops!

I meant to write-"For those who may be interested, this morning I posted a comment on another Mudcat thread that hopefully-clarifies the comments that I made on this thread".

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM

For those who may be interested, this morning I posted a comment on another Mudcat that hopefully-clarifies the comments that I made on this thread.

That other Mudcat thread is:

thread.cfm?threadid=98442&messages=122
BS: The term Afro American?

I also wrote more on that thread on the subject of group referents and racism.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST,Birmingham
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

In Britain coloured people have certainly good rights. If I went for a job and there was a coloured person also applying and I got the job,they have the right to an appeal on the grounds of equal rights. If they got the job, I have no right to question the appointment. Yes there are very fair rights in balanced Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

We have a sizable Black population in the US also that cannot be defined as African. I know a woman from Haiti who is somewhat bemused by it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM

The formal term "African American" would not apply to European, Asian, Australian, or other world residents who are Black, would it? Would it ever be heard in Latin America (where there are an enormous number of Black people)? No. It looks to me like this is an issue that is only really an issue in the USA...although it slides over the border into Canada some too, mostly because our media is pretty much dominated by stuff from the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM

Still floggin' that dead horse Azizi?
Now.....for a bit of real nut crunchin' hostility try Footstompin.com

The Scots do it miles better :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM

pdq, I agree with everything you said in your 04:04 PM post except that "Black" is an informal referent, the formal one being African American. Both are appropriate. Also, the group referent "Negro" is has been retired, and sometimes is used in race as a slur to refer to a Black American {a Black "UnitedStater"} who acts or thinks in subservient, "Uncle Tom" or "Aunt Jemima" ways.

**

It seems that folks here may have misunderstood what I was trying to say-that words such as 'black' and 'white' sometimes have hidden cultural connotations and that these color references can sometimes have negative consequences.

If you're interested in this subject, there are plenty of print resources out there.

And if it does nothing else, this side bar conversation can serve as an example that Mudcatters can have discussions without hostility.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:11 PM

Correct, and since they themselves freely chose it, it hardly seems fair for them (or their children and grandchildren) to also object to the long-established use of the word black in a great many other unrelated contexts, none of which have anything to do with references to someone's race or skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

In the early 1960s there were statements like "ah, to be young, black and gifted!"

There were slogans like "black is beautiful!"

There were also groups like the Black Muslims and the Black Panthers. We were told that 'Negro' now considered a slur.

Eventually 'black' was elevated to 'Black', the proper name for a group of people.

So, for the last 40 years or more, Black is the correct term.

It was chosen and accepted by the group in question, something that most groups never had a chance to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM

Big Mick - "I only started using the term because the African descended community wanted it thus."

Exactly! That is why all of us "white" people back around the late 60s (and ever since) began using the term "black" as a racial designator. We were asked to do that BY "black" people. The African descended community in the USA...or their more vocal spokespersons at any rate...demanded to be called "black" as a point of pride! They wouldn't accept any other word. That's why it's so damned annoying to now be harassed by the children or grandchildren of those people when one innocently uses the word "black" in a multitude of other contexts.

What someone called an African-descended person before the late 60s, if someone was being absolutely polite and fully respectful toward their equality was this: "negro". Then we were told that no, that wasn't good enough. "Negro" had to be replaced with "Black".

The same sort of silly stuff has been raging around for the last hundred years over what to call Amerindians too...and no one can seem to agree on the perfect word. I'm sure that a new word will presently be found, though, since Native North American and First Nations Person are both just a bit too cumbersome to put up with for very long. ;-) I wonder what the new word will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:36 PM

I know where the hostility went. pdq and I found it, it's in the "water will run out" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:03 PM

A rimmus A writtus Arunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

"I see, I saw, thou Spaw, I spewed" is the more rigorous form, Pat.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

No that's vene vidi venal Spaw.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:55 PM

Amos Amoth amat

Uh.....I came, I saw Amos nekkid, I tossed lunch?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:18 PM

Amos Amoth amat?

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:05 PM

Athena Greek goddeth oneth, Amoth

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:37 PM

I have seen some Greeks bare, but their gifts were all above the equator.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:34 AM

Way off base here, Azizi. The use of "black" or "dark" means many things in many cultures. My own daughter, whose name is "Ciara" or "Dark One". In the early Irish culture this had more to do with depth of feeling/insightfullness than with color. It did not denote evil/bad in any way.

I have always had reservations about referring to African descended peoples as being black. They are many delightful shades of brown, but not black. I only started using the term because the African descended community wanted it thus. I feel that society has an obligation to correct its ills (such as racism), and if that community expresses its objections to stereotyping and its effects (such as the effects African descended kids) then society has an obligation to correct such legitimate complaints. But we still must evaluate these things. And this term, and its connotations, have nothing to do with (in general) with racism. When a singer describes a black hearted villain, s/he is not making a racist statement. Now, when songs refer to darkies, that is another thing. I can't imagine why the citizens of the State of Florida have put up with this as long as they have.

I certainly mean no offense to you, but these things are honest.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:25 AM

LOL !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:06 AM

Not having seen any real Greeks bare, all I have to go by is those statues, which, in my opinion, don't seem that gifted. Maybe the models were just cold.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:55 AM

Beware of Greeks baring gifts!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:45 AM

What the really want us to do is bend over forwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:45 AM

I'll take soundings George, and maybe we can raise some interest in sending you to Coventry at least.
Coventry's not just Any Town you know!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:42 AM

Ye gods - I won't get a fatwa against me for that last statement, I hope!

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:41 AM

Back to the hostility: I think that the board's moderation has been stepped up a gear or two in the last 6 months, and that must have something to do with it, I am sure; and I, for one, applaud it.

Right - brown nosing over.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM

Speak for yourself, John - I am Greek and have learned from an early age not to bend over backwards. Too dangerous :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:19 AM

holy shit. This is so absurd that I can't even believe it. There is one and only one reason ANY white person that I know has EVER referred to an "african-america" as "black"....

THEY (the "african-american") demanded it!!!

Now you are bitching because there MAY be a negative connotation to "black"?

Get over it.

We have danced like puppets dangling at the end of this fear-of-racism string for so damn long, doing ANYTHING that the "people-of-color" demanded of us (as regards nomenclature) and this just proves that when color can afford such political power, there will be no pleasing a group.

The fact that we would refer to an "african-american" as an apt racial descriptor shows just how stupid this has gotten to be. There is nothing about dark skin that would lead to a deduction of "american" and there is even little about dark skin that would lead one to conclude "african"........and yet THEY demand it, and we bend over backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM

Sorry but this thread is asking where the hostility has gone, not 'Can you see if you can stir up some hostility on an unrelated topic'
Azizi nothing personal, but I am pig sick of all this butchering of the English language in order not to offend people, who on the most part seem remarkably unoffended by the use of words like blackboard.
Please if you wish to bring this subject up again, and I'm sure you will, can you please start a thread about it, or post it in an appropriate thread.
Please note this is not a hostile post ¦¬]
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:15 AM

I agree with Bee, Azizi. There are so many "innocent" (of racism) uses of the word "black", even if some have a negative meaning, that make your proposition impractical at best.

a) Backballing someone (ostracising) - to do with the colour of pebbles used to vote someone "out"
b) Having black thoughts (from the mourning connotation of the colour)
c) Beating someone black and blue - from the colour of bruising
d) Shouting till black in the face - from the darker colour of the pre-apoplectic, as the surface bloodvessels fill up
e) Black Sunday (Monday etc) - again, a mourning link
f) Black/dark mood - ditto
g) Blacking out (fainting, or a room) - darkness, lack of light, loss of consciousness
h) Black Sea - from its dark colour
... and so on. None of the above have any racial origin, link or connotation and no sensitivity to them can be reasonably justified. And I emphasise the word "reasonably" here - as in "innocent till proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt".

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM

Thread drift alert...speaking of whelps, where have all the whelp threads gone? I couldn't find any of them, and I searched back to the beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Bee
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

(Perhaps this post should be in the previous thread)

Azizi, I'm not sure what you're advocating, unless it's to stop using the colour black to describe negatives. If so, I think you're tilting at windmills, since as previously mentioned, the habit relates to the terrors of night and goes way back to the very roots of many cultures.

I'm old enough to have put up posters advertising public speeches by Black Panther members. A protest rhyme of the day, if I remember it correctly was : "Say it long and say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud." One of the aims of people struggling to eliminate racism was to make blackness (of African roots) a positive, and I think to some extent that has been successful.

Also, the colour black has positive associations; it is associated with dignity and sophistication (black clothing worn by preachers, by fashionable and by respectable women, by wealthy men at fancy events); with fecundity (black soil is fertile); with power (black cars used by dignitaries, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM

Amos, Little Hawk, and jacqui,

I appreciate what you are saying. However, I still believe that it may be helpful for folks here to be aware of the cultural connotations of the word 'black'.

For anyone interested in exploring this subject, there are numerous print resources that discuss the cultural connotations of colors, particularly the colors black and white.

thread.cfm?threadid=100016
includes a brief exchange of comments regarding this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:21 AM

Amos and LH - just exactly what I was thinking, but you put it so much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM

Azizi, I have to agree with Amos on this one. The use of the term "black" in the contexts you allude to is NOT intended against people of African genetic origion, nor are those people black, they are brown, and the only reason anyone ever called them "black" in the first place was because people don't seem to be able to call something what it is...they have to go to some silly extreme!

Why do I say that? Because white people aren't white! They're sort of pink, more-or-less. Furthermore, Asians aren't yellow, and Amerindians aren't red. We are all various shades of beiges, pinks, and browns, with other subtle overtones mixed in. No one is black, white, yellow, or red...unless he has just fallen in a vat of paint.

It's all so stupid. Are we supposed to curb the use of the word "white" (which can be taken in some contexts to mean pale with fear or illness), or "yellow" (taken by some to mean "cowardly"), or "red" (as in "communist" or "angry"), because those words TOO may offend someone??????

I don't think so. Here's a big reason why "black" is used to describe a bad situation: because darkness is black, that's why. Every spiritual tradition in the world, including the traditions of African people has symbols that equate evil with darkness. It has nothing to do with the color black...it has to do with darkness versus light. We are day creatures. We don't see well in the dark. Our primitive ancestors were very afraid of the darkness when predators roam the land looking for prey, and they waited anxiously for every dawn when the sun would bring light in place of the darkess.

This did not mean they had something against the color black. They didn't. The color black, like all colors, is a completely neutral thing, and remains quite popular in most cultures for clothing, footwear, cars, whatever...

Subject: RE: BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 08:45 PM

Geeziz Amos, what typical redneck honky bullshit............I know because I liked it...............ohmygawd.................

(above is joke)

Spaw