BS: (UK Only) Anyone going to today's march?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM

As it happens there are rather more urgent issues than fox-hunting.BS: So anyone going on this march?(28th UK)

The thing about fox hunting (and stag hunting) is that a very large majority of people see it as essentially the same as other blood-sports, like badger-baiting, dog-fighting, cockfighting and bull fighting etc, which have already been banned for years. And they don't want that kind of thing going on in their country, because they see it as degrading and disgusting.

A small minority of people disagree, but they haven't so far been able to persuade the rest of the population to see it that way. A small minority can still add up to quite a lot of people, of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:43 PM

Comparing chalk with cheese, and also apples with oranges, is just a way of saying you an't compare two things with so little in common. That's why they invented statistics, so that you can prove any two things are the same, using any set of figures you choose. As can be seen from the arguments above, statistics like beauty are in the eye of the beholder. Always remember the mantra, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics"
Failte.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:43 AM

Guest, you said "Your 'large show of support' amounts to less than half of one percent of the population."

What percentage of the population turned out to protest against the Countryside Alliance then? I think I've seen a figure of 150. That's people who are prepared to protest in person rather than hurredly answer a street survey.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:35 AM

Yes, The Lords blocked it, that's what I meant when I said the bill failed. It needs the assent of both houses.
Large public backing doesn't really affect our political process. Every time there is an opinion poll on capital punishment the public is largely in favour of re-instatement, but in parliament the MPs are allowed a vote of conscience, and vote not to re-instate, irrespective of the fact that they are there as representatives of their constituents.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:11 AM

No, as you well know, the commons passed it, the lords blocked it.

Given that it's a manifesto promise with large public backing, I think that they should give it another try.

Of course, if the Tories want to make a manifesto promise to reinstate it and get it (assuming it does get banned) then of course commons time should be given to it.

I don't agree with banning it btw, but the issue is important to many on both sides and hence worthy of further discussion

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:56 AM

Guest: They gave it commons time, and the bill failed!
They now want to give it more commons time.
This is like having a referendum, and being told you will continue to have referendums until you get the answer right

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:51 AM

Come on Nigel,

Your 'large show of support' amounts to less than half of one percent of the population.

Polls always report a big majority in favour of banning it, it was a manifesto promise by Labour.

They have a responsibility to give it Commons time.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM

What we are going to get, is hunting with dogs, but under licence.

Any thoughts on this strange concept?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:22 AM

That is why we have the House of Lords. They have time to discuss matters which the House of Commons attempt to rush through.
On t.v. Ian Duncan Smith (leader of the opposition in the commons) made it clear that as Tony Blair is making time to try to ban hunting whilst there is insufficient time being spent on sorting out Teaching, Health & Law 'n' Order, it is only reasonable that if the Conservative party come back to power, time should be allowed to re-instate hunting.
Surely parliametary time can be better spent than to take a second go at hunting, when a large show of support for hunting has been seen.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:27 AM

None of those "sports" would have been banned if the people who enjoyed them had had their way. says McGrath of Harlow, talking approvingly of the past banning of bear-baiting and cock-fighting, etc.

But with that argument, the government-that-knows-best is justified in banning any and every activity, removing any and every liberty.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:28 AM

HRH Prince Charles said, that if foxhunting is banned in UK, then he is going to emigrate, and spend the rest of his life ski-ing, I wont miss him anyway! is that how you spell ski-ing? Good riddunce, big ears.john

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

Huh?

Chalk with cheese?

How so?

(Neat phrase that... I've never heard that one before...)

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM

Clinton I agree that it is sad that the Aids march was so poorly attended, but I feel on the whole that you are comparing chalk with cheese.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM

Hopefully after Fox-hunting is banned, the next to fall will be bull fighting...

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM

Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc. The point is that these have already been banned. Hunting and fishing are still practiced. The government promised to have a vote on the banning of fox hunting. Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc. After due process the bill failed.

None of those "sports" would have been banned if the people who enjoyed them had had their way.

The elected members of Parliament have by overwhelming majorities voted for fox-hunting and stag hunting with hounds to have the same legal status as bear-baiting, cock-fighting etc. Unelected members of the House of Lords have interrupted the process of implementing the ban, true enough. However when Nigel Parsons says, in respect of this, that "After due process the bill failed" - well, it might possibly mislead some people. If they aren't too familiar with tey British system of government, they could well assume that "due process" implied the actions of a democratically elected parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:17 PM

Fox-hunting is an inefficient way of controlling pests. I don't have a problem with killing animals for fun, but I do disagree with causing unnecessary suffering, particularly when the alternative - shooting them - is quick, humane and efficient.

Many people do have a problem with killing animals for fun, and I am one of them. I speak not as a townie or a Champagne socialst but as a one time crofter, shepherd and as one employed to slaughter many thousands of sheep.

Taking away life should be looked upon as the great responsiblity it is and should never be considered as 'fun'. Sometimes it may be necessary to kill, but I have worked alongside and worried about folk who did appear to find killing sheep to be 'fun'. I worried that, under different circumstances, they may also turn out to be the people who found killing people also be 'fun'.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:11 PM

I'm shocked and stunned and very disappointed in the human race as a whole...

Watching the news last night over dinner... hundreds of thousands of people marching to protect a stupid, barbaric custom... a throwback to, (and so a clinging to) a past of darkness and ignorance...

But in Toronto on the same day only 15 hundred people show up to a walk to raise money for AIDS research...

You tell me which issue is more important...

No... on second though, don't...

It just leaves me wondering when oh when is the stupid human race gonna get its collective heads out of it's collective bums?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Grab
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:55 PM

I'm another who would have supported this, had it really been about "Liberty and livelihood". I don't live in the country, but as a keen walker I've spent a lot of time out there, and I know how much the farmers are getting screwed over.

Fox-hunting is an inefficient way of controlling pests. I don't have a problem with killing animals for fun, but I do disagree with causing unnecessary suffering, particularly when the alternative - shooting them - is quick, humane and efficient. If there was a way to, for example, train the dogs to stand off when the fox was cornered, so that a huntsman could shoot it, that would suit me just fine. It would also force the hunters to be the ones killing it, which would focus them on what they're doing.

But the wider problem is that the countryside is being systematically buggered, and the government is either doing nothing about it or actively encouraging it. Farmers are being forced to clear woodland and hedges to get that bit more land to farm, bcos they can't make ends meet without it, and that has a knock-on effect on all the local wildlife. Importers of meat and grain aren't compelled to follow the same rules as British farmers, so locally-produced food is more expensive. And British farmers face far more regulation and red tape (and have to pay for it) than anywhere else in Europe, which knocks them back more.

The money involved in hunting is tiny. The money involved in agriculture is huge. The reason rural communities are screwed is that no-one can make enough money to live there - why earn less than £10,000 as a farmer when you can make more than that working in Tescos in town?

Take *that* message to London, and they'll have my support. I didn't go on last weekend's march, but I'd join anyone who'd try to address the *real* issue.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM

Towny,

It's a shame that you can't make a reasoned point.

All of the people who have posted interesting messages here, have

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Towny
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:56 AM

"You townies don't understand the countryside" I understand the countryside all too well. After consuming a five-course meal at the Hilton hotel after the march, those "hoary handed sons of toil" will get back in their Range rovers and return to their subsidised life stiles destroying habitats and poisoning rivers.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM

I don't understand your argument, McGrath (your post 23-Sep-02 - 05:43 AM). What have "Badger-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fights. bear-baiting, otter-hunting..." to do with the illiberality or otherwise of advocating a ban on those activities which we find distasteful?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM

If dragging will not suffice and it is blood that is required, can I suggest, to keep everybody happy, that we combine the elements of fox-hunting with those of the Roman games?

People in hunting 'pinks' can blow their horns and chase starved lions around. The hunt support industries can still supply equipment, for what would be a slightly fairer contest. They may soon run out of people keen enough to take part, if not of those willing to pay to watch? There should be more than enough blood to satisfy the apparent lust for this….. It would not of course, come only from the victims this time.

Liz, Gervase and others make some very good points. But all those folk with real concerns for the people and life of the countryside must realise that it is totally counter-productive to allow these concerns to be identified with and used by those whose aims will never be supported by the majority of the people in the UK. Where ever these people originate or now live.

Didn't we used to call the process of replacing activities and pursuits that we generally could not be proud of - progress?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM

Pheasants -1,000s

Dead pheasants splattered on roads - 100s

Shoots -100s

Foxes - 100s

Farmers pockets' filled with £1,000s

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 06:09 AM

Nigel

re Fishing

I think that the answer is because fish aren't mammals, aren't pretty and don't have nice furry coats. Their young aren't 'really adorable' to most humans either

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:59 AM

McGoH: Kevin, your last post equates fox Hunting with bear baiting, cock fighting, etc.
The point is that these have already been banned. Hunting and fishing are still practiced. The government promised to have a vote on the banning of fox hunting. After due process the bill failed.
On the basis that Tony Blair was seen to have failed his supporters it is being brought up again, this time with the threat that if defeated in 'The Lords' it will still be forced through. This is even after he has attempted to equalise the make up of the upper house.
Fishing, although harming a much greater number of animals on a daily basis, has not (yet) been targetted. Could this be because it is seen as being practised by men more likely to be supporting the labour party ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:45 AM

Liz,

The figure that I accussed you of invent[ing] off the top of your head were those of 750 000 marchers, and that it would only be 200 MPs who decided.

I watched or listened to the BBC for a good deal of time yesterday. At no point did I hear a figure greater than 400 000. I also read the BBC website several times. Again no mention of a figure in excess of 400 000.

That's why I think you're inventing figures 'off the top of your head' when you suggest there were 750 000 people there

There are 650 MPs in the UK, a majority on any free vote such as this needs 326 votes. And given the depth of feelings on the issue, I would expect almost all of them to exercise their vote

That's why I think you're inventing figures 'off the top of your head' when you suggest that it only needs 200+ MPs to decide.

You asked me to define a 'service industry'

I could do so, but I won't insult your intelligence by providing the generally agreed definitions of the primary, secondary and tertiary sectors of the economy that can be found in any basic economics textbook (and on numerous websites).

You also say: Agriculture...accounts for 99.999rec.% of the food you stuff in your face

No it doesn't. I happen to eat a lot of fish...

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:43 AM

"I maintain that it is fundamentally illiberal to advocate the banning of an activity which we personally may find distasteful." Badger-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fights. bear-baiting, otter-hunting...

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:40 AM

Agreed Ringer, but could we make an exception for golf?
I mean, all those acres of land enclosed and fenced off from the rest of us just so that a bunch of Daily Mail reading dinosaurs can dress like 70s pimps and parade their prejudices while patronising 'the ladies'? Aaargh!
On second thoughts, let it be. At least it gives me something to snort at!

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:38 AM

I do enjoy reading your prose, Gervase, the pleasure probably stemming from broad agreement.

However, I didn't go on the march, because of the inchoate (thanks for that one, how does one pronounce it?) grievances brought together under the catch-all banner. Oliver Sterling appeared the typical tally-ho hunting activist, rallying anglers and allotment buffs, and any other grouping that has anything to do with the place where the pavement runs out behind the (however emotive) economically minute Hunt Debate. That reduced the potency of the message to the periodically staged farce of Wurzels wandering round Trafalgar Square with a piglet under the arm.

Have a Hunt Rally, sure. Single message, no dilution.

However, Tone didn't hang about in town to greet the green peril, which about sums up the actual penetration of this bluntest of weapons.

I'm not rubbishing the well meaning efforts of the rural communities in shouting their anguish. I work in agriculture, and my livelihood depends directly on competitively produced food grown on British farms. But the problem is not one of government. It is one of economics, and the current over-mighty subject, the supermarkets.

40% of white meat consumed in the UK is imported, much of it from south-east Asia. It is produced in and transported from Thailand more cheaply than indigenously available chicken, because of vastly cheaper labour, and the use of meat and bone meal, animal fat (tallow) and fishmeal, which are products proscribed in the EU, and shipped to Thailand at giveaway prices. And who is to blame for this one example of 'world' markets? The supermarkets, for not applying the same feeding and welfare criteria to non-EU imports as the beleagured UK farmer.

So, in summary, railing at the people who set taxes isn't hitting the heart of the problem. Until labelling (and what a farce that issue is) is sorted out and mounting a successful 'Buy British Food' campaign, agriculture is going to remain buggered, even if Iain Duncan Smith married Anne Widdicombe, and we made them king and queen.

But I'm glad everyone had a good day out, and it wasn't hijacked by the loonies that caught you last time, Gervase!

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:30 AM

I maintain that it is fundamentally illiberal to advocate the banning of an activity which we personally may find distasteful. And I also think that, if foxes must be controlled (and I believe they must), it is better that folks should enjoy controlling them than not.

Like Liz the Squeak, I am first-generation-off-the-land; I suspect that if I had been my tennant-farmer father's eldest son I would, too, be a farmer. When I see how hard my older brothers' sons, carrying on the tradition, work, for what little reward (are you aware that the average farm income last year was £7000?), then I am grateful that our roles are not reversed. From talking to them, and more particularly to their wives, I know that hunting is not the sole, nor even the primary, motive for their having been on yesterday's march.

I'm a bit ashamed that I did not join them.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:21 AM

Sorry about the late posting, but I was in London yesterday as part of the 400,000 to 600,000 people marching.
Maybe I shouldn't have been there - I don't hunt and I've almost always voted Labour. Nevertheless, I found countless people on the march like me - people who defied the simplistic media portrayal of the marchers. There were wildfowlers from Merseyside, miners' hunts from Yorkshire, terrier club members from Cumbria, smallholders from Dorset, organic farmers from all over and a huge mass of ordinary people. I'm afraid it was about a lot more than fox-hunting.
Yes, there were "toffs" there, but why should someone's accent or social background disbar them from having their voice heard? The overwhelming impression I had was of decent, ordinary people who, for once, were given a voice to protest at what they perceive is an increasingly urban and ignorant establishment.
Some of the pundits have complained that the marchers' complaints were muddled and inchoate - but that's hardly surprising when you think of the huge range of people involved. What matters is that the range of voices was heard at all.
As for public opinion - were we always to listen to the polls we would still have capital punishment in the UK, many non-white britons would have been sent 'home' in the past and homosexuality would probably still be illegal. Sometimes sensible government means listening to minorities before imposing the supposed will of the majority.
For me, yesterday was exhilarating, inspiring and - sadly - ultimately rather depressing. There was a feeling of empowerment come too late.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:18 AM

Liz, I think you've nailed one there re low rural wages. My kids once worked for an organic producer (who had been educated at Rodean!)and got 50p an hour. This though is, to repeat myself, driven by economics: people want cheap food: the supermarkets want to please their customers: so prices and wages at the beginning of the chain, crop picking for example, are driven down and down. Basically, as a society of "consumers", we are far too bloody selfish and mean. I mean, the firemen are now wanting £30000 a year to sit around watching porn videos or sleeping, literally, half the time.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:57 AM

The figures for attendance I quoted came directly from the BBC. I did not "invent figures off the top of your head".

I did not invent my uncles situation, neither did I make up any of the arguments, they are all there in the media for you to peruse at your leisure.

Define a 'Service Industry'. Define one industry that isn't directly affected by the failure of its' workers to find good, cheap food and drink, apart from the fashion industry (models and sweatshop labour).

When you eat your breakfast today - be it cornflakes, bacon and eggs, chocolate, remember - whatever you have, it has an animal or vegetable content - hell, even Poptarts have wheat in them! Agriculture may only account for a small percentage of employment (because if they can't even pay the minimum wage, who can they get to work for them?) but it accounts for 99.999rec.% of the food you stuff in your face.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:34 PM

So the killing is what really motivates the hunters? No fun without the blood? I'd have thought most people would find it a lot more fun.

What puzzles me is how it is we don't need to have our town foxes kept under control by having packs of hunters with dogs ranging through the street.

Incidentally, what's with the "9UK" in the heading to this? A misprint?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:50 PM

No Janey, It would be more like asking a guitar player to change from using tortoiseshell picks to quality plastic picks.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,janey
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:35 PM

GUEST, and others,

Suggesting Drag Hunting is an easy option.

Having never hunted, and having no inclination to hunt in any shape or form, I'm probably not best qualified to answer this.

However, from what I've read, asking a fox hunter to take up drag hunting, would be similar to asking a long term finger picker of an historic Martin, to suddenly start playing on a cheap Spanish guitar, after all the notes are the same...

Janey

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:16 PM

And you got some interesting discussion...

Does that cause you difficulty, John?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:10 PM

Well, I only asked!

john

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:06 PM

That may be fair Simon.

I do detest fox hunting but I do have a general discomfort about banning things although in a referendum, I would vote against.

Personaly I wish fox hunts would voluntarily change to drag hunts and fail to understand why the persecution of a wild animal or the need for blood seems to be required for what in large part is a "social occasion" for those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:39 PM

GUEST,

I'm far more interested in reading tomorrows leaders.

I very much liked The Observer's idea.

The idea that:

hunts [that]want to continue, [should] win licences from their local authorities, who should be obliged to hold referendums on the question

Seems an excellent idea to me, local people decide democratically. A good way to end the bitching.

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM

"Let us, instead, interpret the cry in its narrowest sense: which brings us back to why we are having this march at this time. It is to protest at the Government's illiberal and cynical determination to restrict the liberty of country people to hunt vermin in a traditional way."

Reads very much like the Telegraph to me.

At least the author was honest enough not to claim the march was about anything else.

I look forward to reaing tommorows headlines...

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:13 PM

Gareth,

Use whatever I say in any way you wish.

You might like to read this piece from the Telegraph, of all places.

I'd agree with about 90% of what he says.

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:08 PM

Guest Simon - Target! Target! Target!!!!!!

And who whinged most about the UK's minimum wage ?

The rural landowner !

With your permission I would like to use your comments in a Labour Party leaflet, in our little valley.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Jude,

An explanation of exactly what you are trying to say, and a cohesive arguement would be helpful.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

Lies , damned lies and statistics. statistics can appear to support just about any position you care to name. It depends upon your definitions and which figures you use. Out of context figures, even those from the world fact book are just another way to be wrong with confidence. e.g. you quoted 80% as working in service industries, but people are who work in service industries lose their livelihood just as effectively as those who work directly in an industry if that form of employment disappears.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:52 PM

Whilst I find fox hunting decidedly abbhorent, I don't agree with banning it.

It's unduly cruel for certain, and I have a considerable personal distaste for the type of people who wish to do it.

However, (partly due to my current financial situation) I eat cheap eggs, bacon, lamb and chicken, and the animals that provide my dinner undoubtedly suffer too.

Calling for a ban on hunting, whilst continuing with my current diet would be quite hypocritical, however much I dislike the people who engage in and enjoy the 'sport' It also goes against my instincts of letting people live their lives as they wish if it doesn't adversly impact on others.

What does really annoy me about today's march was the cynical attempt to gain numbers by attempting to combine the 'fox issue' with other rural disquiets.

'Liberty and Livelyhood' was a ridiculous slogan.

The 'liberty' of country dwellers to go to a large supermarket in the nearest big town is the reason for the decline of local village shops

The 'liberty' of using cars is the reason for the lack of adequete public transport

The 'liberty' of being able to sell houses at a great profit to 'townies' is the reason for prices being so expensive

The 'livelyhood' of a farmer deciding to use modern machinery rather than local workers, is the reason for less rural jobs

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:45 PM

According to The World Fact Book UK employment is divided: agriculture 1%, industry 19%, services 80% .

I have some sympathy for your position, but to invent figures off the top of your head (400 000 probably means 750 000, it's all the fault of 200 MPs etc) only serve to weaken your case

Depending on how you define 'city' and 'country' then you may come up with diffent figures

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

Only 10% may be farmers or 'country dwellers' but the effects spread considerably farther than just them. That's the whole bloody point! Everyone is affected somehow, even if it is just an extra penny on a pint of milk.

But I think you may have a slanted view on just how many people live in cities.

My uncle is a farmer. He has a diary farm, which is one of the smaller variety. Last year, due to F&M he was forced to dump most of his milk because it could not be picked up. Travel restrictions between farms meant the tanker could not get to the plantroom, and he couldn't pump it up the hill to the tanker. He failed to meet his milk quota. He pleaded F&M, the government said 'tough'. He was given a subsidy because he had to subsequently slaughter his herd, but then had the majority of it taken away because he hadn't made his milk quota for a given month. That's what I mean by a fine.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:15 PM

Liz,

Will you please stop saying that this is about half the population?

Half the nation aren't country dwellers or farmers, it's less than 10%

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:12 PM

"The problems of rural deprivation, isolation, and insecurity are well documented - It is a pity that those who are now pretending to care about the major problems did not give a damn before their "fox hunting" was threatened." - Gareth had it spot on.

All the arguments and protests about subsidies, grants, quotas and restrictions have been rumbling on ever since we joined the Common Market in the early 1970's! Not that I'm saying that was the problem, but it's a convenient cut off date that I can personally testify to.

I daresay it wouldn't have got such a high profile if the hunting lobby weren't involved, but maybe that was the last straw that broke the camels' back? One last blow to the livelihood of half the population? What is next might you ask? Maybe you would suddenly come up with a whole other heap of arguments for the treatment of jobless people if it were you made jobless.... or if the compulsory demise of the motor vehicle meant you had to walk a bit farther.....

LTS