Music, Politics and Mudcat

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 06:59 PM

Jeezum, this thread has just exploded out of nowhere...! And it's a little strange to read. It seems like we're all putting a neat serial number on our political ideologies. As a Quaker Anarchist, I'm opposed to labelling (irony intended...) No, but seriously, I'm with Moonchild...you just follow your beliefs and don't worry about what the label is. I think the exception to that is when you need to see how other people percieve you, and then yes, it is good to know that you are pinko bolsheviss agitator. But most of the time, labels just keep people from building coalitions.

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 04:15 PM

Kat

You have at present a JFK clone, in the past a Hollywood actor. A cartoon character elected to the office of president next is surely not too far fetched?

There is some great stuff in here but this hit home and I think just about sums it all up..

Moonchild writes.

"As a 50ish folkie, I've never thought of myself as left wing pinko or radical right. I simply believe that some things in life are morally and ethically right and morally and ethically wrong. Injustice and inhumanity are wrong; fighting against injustice and inhumanity are right".

In the thread about wanting more threads on songs, I made the point that I saw the content of the forum as a triangle. The music/songs at the top with the humour and the 'serious stuff' at the bottom supporting the top, for those are the reasons why we sing and what we sing about......... The music wouldn't make much sense without it.

I suppose I didn't say politics specifically, but that was certainly to be included in the 'serious stuff'. I didn't use the word, intentionally for what I meant was more encompassing than the usual definition of that word and I think it can put people off contributing if they perceive a subject to be 'political'. It is also interesting that for some people here (quite naturally), the term 'political' means, internal US politics. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

The 'Xenophobia' was not just a political thread nor the 'Music Therapy' just a musical one. I have received more knowledge from those two threads alone, than from practically anywhere else.

The Kosavo threads are fascinating, as the events are happening as our reactions and opinions are forming and changing to them. I think we learn more from our reactions to them than we do from the information itself. It is interesting even now to re-read them from the start, to see how our thoughts are changing, as the true horror of it, is becoming apparent.

I for one would like to keep that one going and I have started a new thread (and linked the old ones) to enable the conversation to continue there. There should be a link here.

Is anyone else as scared

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 03:16 PM

Well, Lisa Simpson blows a mean sax and I think she's liberal! She'd probably be a pretty good prez, too!

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:24 PM

Waiting for jokes about blowing things aren't you Rick?

catspaw

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM

In the interest of balance, I think it only fair to suggest that those who have mentioned Bill Clinton in a political sense, should tell us how they feel about his music. After all, none of us has played with "Fleetwood Mac" or the NBC Orchestra.

Rick (who refuses to put "grin, grin" after a joke)

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Dave T
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:27 AM

I normally stay out of these discussions and stick with the "purely musical" threads, but what the heck...Like Moonchild I tend to be a social liberal, fiscal conservative. However, I was a bit young to be a "hippie", was raised Protestant Christian and am a 43 year old man. I've voted both Liberal and PC (that's Progressive Conservative NOT politically correct, which I hope I will never be). I have to say, I've never gone so far as to vote NDP (that's Canada's socialist party). I guess I just don't believe in having a bunch of bureacrats decide who gets what. It always seems to deteriorate into a self-serving mess. That being said, I sing many songs that would be considered "left" and firmly believe in everyone's right to live with dignity, honesty and integrity.
It seems to me that "left" and "right" labels too often cloud the issue and are used as excuses to either justify or villify peoples actions. Let people's actions speak rather than their words or political stripe.

Thanks to Rick for an interesting thread.

Dave T

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Banjeray (inactive)
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 08:26 AM

Seed, I too love Gospel Music, and I thought one time about being an Atheist, but come to find out them folks ain't got no holidays.....(TIC, NOI)

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 04:08 AM

I guess I oughta revive the Pedandry thread: both posters above who described themselves as to the right of Ghengis Khan misspelled his name.

Personally, I'm so radical I think a thread without musical content is sorta okay, now and then, and that brief digressions from a thread topic fall somewhat short of mortal sin. I also think Clinton is a poor excuse for a human being but that he should not have been impeached--not that I find what he did not impeachable but the process by which the country came to know about it clearly unconstitutional. I'm a lefty who thinks that Milosevic is a monster--but I'm an internationalist who thinks it's frightening that an Atlantic defense alliance can--with almost no protest--make itself the cops of the world. And I'm a cynic who distrusts the motives of any group of nations (including my own) whose primary function seems to be pimping for the multinationals who are raping the world and screwing the people whose governments they own. And if I could turn all this into a song without getting all preachy, I would. Oh, and I'm also an atheist who loves gospel music. --seed

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 02:47 AM

Uhh...Gargoyle, thanks for the mention and credit, but I don't know of any lyrics I posted? The short "poem" in my first posting was just a spontaneous outburst of my own, but I'll take it as a compliment if that's what you were referring to as lyrics! If not, thanks, anyway!

katlaughing liberally **Smile**

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: gargoyle
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 01:46 AM

Conservatives....Are you alone?

Hell, No!!!!

I coulda, woulda, shoulda, oughta, voted for Nixon....and I would do it again....and again....given the chance and the citizenship. Friends have described me as right wing of Gingus Kahn....I click my heels together and get a tear in my eye when hearing the "Horst Wessel Song."

Thankfully, KatLaughing saved this thread by including some lyrics early in the post.

I rue the day...that DT tips the balance and becomes a "liberal political forum" rather than a site recognized by the U.S. National Library of Congress as a viable source of valid folk tradition and archived records.

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 01:37 AM

Don, I read you loud and clear, and I agree whole-heartedly. Integrity is worth a whole lot more than ideology.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:51 AM

BBC: don't worry, I won't hold it against you or anyone else, as long as they are respectful of my right to feel differently, although I do have to say I have never understood, in recent years, any woman wanting to be a member of what I consider to be a very misogynistic GOP!

While I think Hillary would have been a much better choice, I am not sure that Clinton was ever given the chance, seeings as how he has been subjected to a witch hunt of almost biblical proportions since day one of taking office, but that is JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION! And, NO I don't think he should have played hide the willy in the Oval office, but I also don't think it was anybody else's business but the immediate parties involved and effected by it. SH*%!!!! I SAID I was never going to write another editorial on that subject, I got so sick of all the rpess beating it to death! I gave up and wrote several about it, about the same time Molly Ivins did.

Magarita, I would like to believe that through honest and thoughtful dialogues such as these, people of differing opinion can come to meet on a common ground, called the Mudcat! Welcome one and all, who practise the courtesy and use the thinking skills mentioned above. Through your personal posting to me and your presence oin the threads, there is no doubt you are an integral part of the 'Cat!

katlaughing/katlaf

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Apr 99 - 12:30 AM

Hello Joe,

I hope you don't thinkI was saying that Liberals are inherently dishonest.Thats farthest from the truth. My intent was to say Give me an honest individual of any politcal stripe( Or one opposite of my leanings) as opposed to a dishonest one who happens to be the same as me.

Give me people of character evrytime.

Don

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Banjeray (inactive)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:30 PM

Ah, Catspaw, I am glad to see that you are willing to stick your head into things!!(?) Huh..... Not unlike myself when confronted with a report that the wooden fence around the local nudist camp had a knothole knocked out and that something should be done about it. I immediately, throwing all thoughts of personal safety to the winds, volunteered to "look into it".

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM

"Atrophied Rhetoric" I'm adding that phrase to my vocabulary. I've often thought that, but never quite put it so succinctly. Thank you. I sincerely hope that no one would feel out of place, here. There are many differings of opinions, but I would hope no one would stoop to the depths of "folk-snobbery." moonchild

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:10 PM

Thank you Allen. I thought I knew that one well til I was sitting here typing away and ZAP...left with nothing but essence...make that except essence(unintentional pun there). As I said, I hope my kids remember me for standing for the right to believe as we choose. The most refreshing thing and why I enjoy this place so much is that as we argue and debate and discuss, I feel as though I'm conversing with people who have thought through their beliefs and are capable of challenging them while explaining them...this is the level of thinking that keeps our minds open and creative, regardless of liberal or conservative leanings. Those are just tags to aid the less creative in their quest to classify things and reach a comfort level where actual thinking skills are not required. I really don't care what anyone believes, but have they thought it through or is it just atrophied rhetoric? Mudcat folks, in general, have certainly not lost the ability to think, all too uncommon in most of our society.

So Margie, don't feel out of place here...you aren't. I've read many of your posts and you are a person with depth of thought and high levels of care and compassion...for me, THAT is the "essence" of Mudcat.

And speaking of essence......General Banj, I had never been into outhouses except as required by nature and geography, but I have developed a newfound interest after meeting Rick's brothers, Reg,Reg,and Reg. I'm now into "Vintage Shacks" and I already have a birch one. I am however looking for one of Honduran Mahogany or Big Leaf Maple with an Engleman door and abalone inlay around the quarter moon. If you OR ANYBODY locates one, let me know and I'll check it out. I'm a man who likes to stick his head into things.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 09:03 PM

Well ... if we're going to name our "politics," I'm a Jewish, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, 60's radical, hippie chick of the millenium. (Not to bore you with trivia, but to quality the last part of my statement ... father was a military "spook" and the suits followed me around for years to make sure I wouldn't be kidnapped. Not my choice of lifestyle, but possessing a tremendous amount of respect for father, kept my political/liberal views to myself.) I thank g-d daily for coming of age and independence. moonchild

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Allan S.
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 08:00 PM

HI Gang- Really a great thread Dont mind me I was a knee jerk liberal when young. but know I am somewhat to the right of Jengis kahn. I guess at 70 it's OK to have a wild hair up my butt every once and a while. The expression you were looking for was from Winston Churchill ]I think] If when you are young and not a liberal you have no heart. If when you are old and not a conservative then you have no brains.Actually hang on to your dreams and fight for them no matter what they are. THats what makes the world go round Allan

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:39 PM

Well, Animaterra, the Quakers have a little too much integrity for me. I mean, I really admire them and everything they stand for, but I'm not quite sure I'd want to live that way.
As for Episcopalians, I feel quite comfortable with them, but I can't stand olives in martinis. Put an onion in mine, please.... (grin)
-Joe Offer-

Banjeray, get this straight:
60's radicals were called "hippies," are in their 50's, but were born in the 40's.
50's radicals were called "beatnicks," are in their 60's, but were born in the 30's.
40's radicals ended up in uniform, and are now called "Grandma and Grandpa."
Got it?

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Banjeray (inactive)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:36 PM

Wow, lotsa HEAVY stuff and other things over which to ponder....C'paw, I read with great interest where you consider yourself "an aging 60's radical", and here I thought you were just knocking on 50's door! 'Course just cause I was born in the same year as you don't make me a 60's radical, I still will only admit to 50!! And what is that about the Birch John Society? Are you interested in the preservation of wooden toilets?

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:34 PM

As for me, Joe, over and over again I feel that my exact feelings are expressed in your threads (although read Quaker/Episcopalian for Catholic). Thank you for expressing my thoughts once more!

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:33 PM

I'm anti-Clinton all the way, too, bbc, and I call myself a "Liberal" with a capital "L." What was Don saying about dishonest liberals?
I think it's wonderful to espouse a political philosophy as a basis for action. My philosophy of choice is definitely "liberal" and probably "socialist" (well, "democratic socialist"). However, in real life, we have to solve real problems with practical solutions that actually work. Our philosophy can give us perspective and direction - but we have to negotiate out solutions that come as close as possible to working well for everyone concerned, for liberals and conservatives and even for moderates.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbc
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:21 PM

For what it's worth, Margie, I'm an anti-Clinton-all-the-way, mainstream Protestant Christian Republican (sorry, katlaughing!), but I like to think that I am accepting of others' viewpoints.

best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM

So I won't be bashed for admitting I'm conservative? I do often feel out of place here. I love singing and I love ballads and shantys. I'm a good performer and perhaps in those ways I "fit in". But I guess from what I've read I'll have to be the token conservative around here. Am I alone?

Margie

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:10 PM

Well, actually Mick and Paw, I wasn't exactly sitting back chortling about this thread (until you reminded me that the Fender acoustic was lefthanded..now that's double jeopardy, and funny!) Just one of those late night solo thinking sessions, that get out of hand.

Joe's point about seeing yourself as "something" but often "falling out of step with the others," hits home for me constantly. I sing for the socialists every Mayday, but I'm horridly disappointed at the way they always take sides in wars. (Especially the current one) Not one of the spokepersons has ethnic ties to the area but it's just automatic for them that "U.S. bullets-bad, Serb-bullets good". That's too much ideology for me. The songs I'll sing for them are anti-ANY-war. But will they listen?

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:14 PM

Catspaw, bless you, you make a lot of sense.

(Although I still disagree those who defend humor that puts other people down - it's not enough to tell people to ignore insults because they're meant in fun. It's a matter of balance, and thinking about whether other people will feel hurt by your words. But anyhow, that's now what I was going to talk about,and let's not talk about that in this thread.)

I guess I mix together my religion and politics and lifestyle and work ethic and philosopy of life and how I feel I should treat other people. I think that's how it should be, and I think probably most of us are like that. I think maybe many of us share the same ideals, although we may label ourselves differently and we may have different approaches to those ideals.
I've always labeled myself a liberal, Catholic-Christian, Social Democrat, pacifist. Trouble is, I've often found myself at odds with my fellow liberals, Catholics, Social Democrats, and pacifists because I have never strictly adhered to the ideologies of any of those groups and I've always tried to see how the "other side" sees things. Sticking too close to an ideology stifles us, because it doesn't allow us to work with people who see things differently. If we can't work with people who see things differently, can we ever really accomplish anything? Of course, if we're too wishy-washy about our ideals, we can't accomplish anything, either.
I adhere quite strictly to the ideals of liberalism and socialism and democracy and pacifism and Christianity; but I realize that those are ideals we should strive for, ideals that may never be fully realized. As for religion, I consider myself part of the "loyal opposition" in the Catholic Church (and think of myself as every bit as Catholic as the pope I often disagree with). I feel obliged to consider and learn from the religious beliefs of all, from atheism to Islam.
Somehow, music seems to be able to bridge the gaps that divide us, and it can allow us to listen to people we disagree with. I may not listen to you because I've labelled you as an enemy to my ideology. However, if you can sing a good song that expresses your point of view, I'm likely to listen and to consider your opinion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 03:53 PM

Kindred souls, all,
I love thee so
Like minds, rampant
Threads, wander,
Focus, then ramble, Endear one to the other.

Kathleen LaFrance

THIS THREAD EXPLAINS SO MUCH OF WHY I AM PROUD TO CALL MYSELF A MUDCATEER AND PINKO LIBERAL!!!!!**GRIN**

Also, my parents were proof a long time ago against the adage about age and growing conservative. They were, Dad still is, very liberal and raised us so; and, thankfully none of us felt the need to rebel against that and go conservative!

I do love you, the Mudcat community. Thanks for being my friends.

katlaughing/katlaf

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 03:38 PM

As a 50ish folkie, I've never thought of myself as left wing pinko or radical right. I simply believe that some things in life are morally and ethically right and morally and ethically wrong. Injustice and inhumanity are wrong; fighting against injustice and inhumanity are right. I register with a political party because I believe in voting, although sometimes it seems I'm wasting my time. Nowadays, I most often vote against something as opposed to voting for something. I definitely take issue when individuals are labeled as "leftwing" because we believe people should be treated with dignity. Folk music has always been used as a venue for speaking out; unfortunately often the words go unheard, sort of like "the beat is kinda funky; don't think I can dance to it." Well, that's enough for now. Opinions are good; disagreements are healty; sometimes agreeing to disagree is essential. moonchild

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 02:46 PM

Geez Rick...After starting this thread I now see the relationship between you and your brothers Reg, Reg, and Reg. If you believed that this sucker was gonna' "scoot on down the list" you are the dumbest ass in two countries. Gladly, I know you aren't (however I think you may be making a mistake offering those '48 Hudson Mudflaps for a lefty Fender acoustic)!!! This has already gotten the 'catters going and it should. I'm with Mick in figuring you're sitting back and getting a good laugh over this. A great topic my friend.

I cannot divorce my love of folk and my political interests...just not possible. Most of us came to folk music at an early age when questioning authority and bits of rebellion are simply part of the teen years of any generation. The fact that so many of us are 50ish and came of age in turbulent times explains why Mudcat threads are a mix of both music and politics. I don't see that mix as being out of proportion. Folk music has always been a part of any movement for change and progress. Perhaps the difference here at the 'Cat is the number of "left-wing pinkos" who are not 20, but 50, which doesn't exactly reflect the "normal" trend to become conservative as we get older. What's the old saying about being liberal when you're young, but anyone NOT conservative as they age is a fool. To hell with that!!! I'm most prone to describe myself as an aging 60's radical...if I have a conservative lean at all it is only in the scope of what I can accomplish, not why I should.

Folk music has been a part of me and a part of change in areas that have so much a part of my life. I was successful in the corporate world, yet always uncomfortable. The day I looked in the mirror and asked myself, "What the hell happened to ME," the discomfort began to ease. My increased playing and building eased the transition back to the person I was. Prior to that my music had been relaxing but not much else since becoming Eddie Exec.......Once again it is now motivational and therapeutic. I want my kids to remember the Old Man as someone who held true to the beliefs he had, yet was always willing to challenge those beliefs and listen to others point of view; as a person who stood up for the rights of everyone to hold their beliefs;and as a fighter for what he believed to be the truth. They'll probably also remember that Dad always had a song or two that went along with it.

As to humor, well.......I often have Good Humor, had one last night as a matter of fact. The local "Shoot and Scoot" is now carrying the brand so I had a plain one, just chocolate coated and.......Sorry, wrong humor. Music is tied to that too, always has been. In "Peter and the Wolf" the trombone has the best lines, but the bassoon part is far funnier. Alright look, if my often obscure, bizarre, raunchy, and sarcastic sense of humor offends you...just skip my posts. WOW!!! What a great sentence and what a polite way of saying -- Bugger Off! But humor has also protected me from the rage of daily existence in a world rife with inhumanity and cruelty. For the umpteenth time (and I'm sorry) I quote George Gordon (Lord Byron):

"If I laugh at any mortal thing,'tis that I may not weep."

My Best to All---except to Rick for starting this thread and Mick for being a left wing pinko. As soon as I get off the Net I'm calling the John Birch Society (cute song too..in the DT I think)

catspaw

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:15 PM

Allan, I think Mick makes some good points about the political direction in folk music. Heather just asked me "Aren't there any "angry right wing songwriters"? Of course there are, but they don't gear their material to the "folk music" audience. There have been many songs poking fun at "peaceniks", do-gooders, and bleeding heart liberals ('fraid I'm one of them..but a cynical one) over the years. Groups like "Up With People", "The Geezenslaw Bros.", and a number of bluegrass bands have written and played right-wing songs in a folk style. Vin Garbutt, who has one of the finest voices I've ever heard, has a very edgy take on many issues dear to lefties, but works (constantly) in folk venues. To mis-quote Don a bit, "I (Rick) would rather discuss issues with an intelligent conservative than a dorky leftie". And I'd much rather go to a Garbutt concert (knowing that we strongly disagree on many things) than one by someone who parrots a party line and performs badly. I'm not sure how much "contemporary" folk you listen to but many points of view are out there.(especially these days) Thanks for responding.

rick

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:58 AM

Sorry about the bold face, but I meant it to end at the end of the first sentence, and then just the word "are" in the second sentence. Anyone with a magic button can fix that and I won't be offended in fact I would be greatful.

Mick

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:54 AM

Well, Allan, first off, take your hat off when you say Left Wing Pinko's!. We are left wing pinkoes!! he said proudly with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Actually, NOI, but you need to research the subject before you make gratuitous assertions. I would suggest that if the only folk music you hear is that which would be branded left wing, then perhaps widening the selections you listen to would be useful. Any effort to search the DT, or do forum searches, will find you songs which will support almost any view, conservative or left wing that you would like. I will admit that a majority of the music in our genre will be more liberal than not due to it being inspired by events and political happenings to everyday folks. In folk music the artist generally seeks to question events or portray happenings that affect people, for good or bad, in a significant way.

All the best,

Big Mick, who rather likes being called a left wing Pinko.

Yo, Mick, ya gotta close boldface type with a slash, like this: </b>. I fixed it fer ya by adding the slashes.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 11:01 AM

Not a chance, Friend Fielding!!!!! Why do I get this mental image of my cyber buddy Rick sitting at his keyboard chuckling right now??

I must say that I am always amused when I hear the comment "Let's stay with the music, people........." in a forum on folk music forum. Folk music is always inspired by the lives of people (folks) and the events that affect them. And those that think this is a phenomenon of the 60's are misinformed. Music has always been used to comment on political events of the day. Gutheries best music were his songs that commented on issues. Irish and Scottish folk music has always had a large body of political commentary. My opinion is that the thing that makes the Mudcat distinct is its diverse opinions and respectful discussion of issues. These discussions are so valuable because they lend context to the songs we sing. Otherwise they are just words on a page.

Want to know how valuable they are? Go back and do a forum search on the following titles. Read the threads all the way through. Sometimes they start slow and develope, but they are a primer on the Mudcat and why we need discussion of controversial ideas. It is what instructs us in our roles as bards of the modern era. I would not want the 'Cat to be exlusively or even majorly a discussion forum on issues. It is a music Forum. But I feel it is these discussions, with a healthy dose of friendship and respect that keeps our town unique. Check out some of these and others and you will know what I mean.

Has anyone the Courage Now?
Why We Sing
Man From The RUC
Back Home in Derry
Cheer me up, Please
Self Righteous Prats
Banned Songs
Loyalist (Ulster) songs
Songs about the Vietnam War
James Connolly/Lochnagar

There are many more threads that you could check out, these are just recollections.

Mick

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Allan S.
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 10:58 AM

Why are all the Political "Folk Songs" Left wing??? Can't think of any ones right of center.Aren't folks who work for a living and satisfied with there lot also FOLK??? How about a balance. THere fore I see music being used as a political tool. To quote Lenin "usefull Idiots". Mention that one is interested in Folk Music and you are branded as a Left Wing Pinko WHY. Allan

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 10:13 AM

Rick,

Thanks Rick for starting this thread. As you know, I am never shy about stating my opinion and the discussions are what I really love aboutthe 'Cat; they are lively, informative, and fun.

I don't believe anything in life is black and white; there are mostly gray areas. To try to compartmentalize life rarely works, i.e. "it's all one big ball of wax".

The Mudcat and the friends I've made here are part of my life which does not go away when I disconnect the physical link. My family has come to relish the next installment of Mudcat news on all things important to us in these threads.

Let's keep it up! Oh, and Rick, did you really think we would let this live just a short time and let it sink to the bottom?**Grin***

katlaughing/katlaf

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbc
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:51 AM

P.S.--Guess we were writing at the same time or I wouldn't have bothered posted such similar thoughts!

bbc :)

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: bbc
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:47 AM

I'd like to second what Rick said about the mainstream media. I usually just avoid it, because I assume it is biased. Although Mudcatters were, initially, brought together by our love of music, I think of us as a community of multi-faceted individuals. I may not have much to say on these topics, but I really appreciate hearing others' thoughts. I particularly like being able to hear the opinions of "real" people from various countries. I think the view in the U.S. is too narrow. I have a 17-yr old son, who is precious to me. With talk of re-instating the draft, I need to know what's going on!

bbc

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 07:29 AM

Thanks, Rick, for expressing it so well! For me, politics, life issues, the whole catastrophe, is rolled into one bag and folk music is the framework. The 'cat is a community, or has evolved into one, which means there will be a diversity of opinions, topics, and personalities. Folk music is the main topic- but don't call the other stuff digression, for me it's part of the package!

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Banjeray (inactive)
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:59 AM

I think the very things that that are listed in the previous five posts, plus whatever any subsequent post will add, are what make up the very basis of what I know as Folk Music. Just the name itself implies "music of the Folk". Without a discussion of all these various elements, all the things we have been told for years one should not discuss, ie; religion, politics, sex, etc. our understanding of the music would suffer. I am all for the original concept of this thread, bring up whatever subject you feel is important to you and someone, sooner or later will connect it to a song! Said song may not be a "true" folk song, it may have its roots in old time or country and western, most of which of the older C&W songs were based on the human experience. Let's keep on keeping on, and lets not lose our sense of humor either, sometimes thats all we have to get us through hard times.

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Margo
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:54 AM

I'm glad you started this thread, Rick. I was feeling somewhat bashed after reading in the "is anyone as scared as I am" thread. Don: I'm glad you pointed out the importance of looking at character and not just party. Speaking of politics and music, I heard a wonderful song at song circle. It was an old Scottish song, and was tongue in cheek and anti-British. I will have to find out what it was and see if you all know it.

Margie

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Night Owl
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 04:40 AM

I found mudcats while searching solely for "traditional" folk and blues music web sites. I got HOOKED on Mudcats because of the diversity of geographics, political perspectives, and good-natured HUMOR. Part of the uniqueness and fun for me is that when the discussion involves political disagreement....someone invariably makes a reference to a song, whose lyrics are right on target. The humor is universal and good-natured in intent!! I think if we didn't discuss "politics", or the reality (as each of us sees it) of life's events, I would wonder about the source of our individual root interest in "folk" music. One of the things I found here, is the same acceptance and respect for other human beings that was common in coffeehouses and Folk Festivals in the sixties...respect for the history and stories and diversity, and respect for those human beings who, quivering, got up the nerve to share their music at open mike nights! The understanding, that everyone starts somewhere musically, that even if the music was baaad from a beginner on open mike night, the commitment and passion was there, to be nurtured, developed and respected. Its beyond my comprehension to understand how we could ever separate "Folk" music from personal and political life events that "Folks" experience. Nuff said, I assume my hoof is in my mouth up to the hocks!!!

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: LEJ
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 02:05 AM

I sure enjoy a good political discussion. I enjoy a good argument even more, as long as it proceeds in a logical fashion. If there is a thread topic that engenders a discussion that I feel strongly about, I am not shy about jumping onto the soap box with both feet. Those I am arguing with probably realize that only makes me a better target anyway.The honest airing of deeply held beliefs is what our country (yes and Canada, Britain, Iceland, Brazil not to forget Ahia) is about. And I sure think there is room on the Mudcat for it.

Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:40 AM

Rick,

Many of us veterans of the 60's Folk Scare are still as political as ever. I am more thoughtful perhaps of where I stand but when I resolve to make a stand I am steadfast. Just like in the 60's. My heroes are still Paxton and Ochs and Malvina and anyone else willing to take a stand. Even an unpopular one. I think if I learned nothing from Pete Seegar and Tom Paxton over the years it is this. Diference of opinion is good. Opposing political beliefs are fine. It is dishonesty, hypocracy, hubris, and unreasoned thought that are the real enemies. Given the choice between an honest conservative and a dishonest liberal in office, I'll take the conservative everytime. So would have Phil Ochs, he said so often enough. You can change the mind of an honest man, but you can't turn the heart of a crook. ( There, more politics than I've spoken in years.)

Politically I find I'm neither republican or democrat anymore, I have a too highley refined sense of the silly to be a libertarian, I guess I'll just be a libertine.

Don

Subject: Music, Politics and Mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 01:20 AM

I know that a few Catters are probably cringing and cursing under their breaths upon seeing this, and thinking:"songs, you dough-head! This forum is about songs, period." However, I also think that enough of us truly enjoy the related (and sometimes un-related) discussions that pepper the threads, and I wanted to share some of the reasons why knowing each other's "take" on issues has become so important to me. I'm not going to bring up any specific "hot points", so it should scoot down the list and disappear quickly.

It often seems that the only people who take the time to phone a radio show or join a "net" discussion have "set-in-stone" agendas, and filter all their opinions through it. The result being endless repetition of "right-left" dogma. To paraphrase Joe O. "it's downright 'teejus," and many of my friends have given up on even reading or watching the news. In a way I can't blame them. So why is it different and so much more interesting on the "cat"? I think it's plainly and simply the "folk music connection". People who take the time to search for non-conformist music, rather than lap up what's handed to them on TV and (most) radio, are probably less satisfied with the status quo in a number of other areas as well. I suspect their opinions are formed by a fair amount of "self-searching", and surely this makes for better understanding, even when we disagree.

The music will always be primo with me, and I love reading the threads because of their diversity. In the areas where I feel I've invested enough to have a valid point; I contribute. Needless to say, the silly humour (which is obviously not to everyone's taste) can be irresistable to me, cause it's just so darn hard to find, these days......But, politics and music will be forever entwined for me. Blame Seeger, or MacColl, or Ochs, for getting me started, but folksongs have helped me understand human situations better for over thirty years now. Not just political songs either. My (probably obsessive ) love for old time country music resulted in numerous trips to the South, and a much better understanding of people and places than I'd had from just reading Northern newspapers (this was in the late 60s). The stories and locations mentioned in British ballads gave me an interest in history that was certainly dormant before, and Gypsy music started me reading about the Romany culture which I'd never even heard of before.

It seems to me that "issue" threads are outnumbered many times over by purely musical ones (and that is as it should be) but I hope that enough folks like the "other kind", so that they continue.

Rick