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Music, Politics and Mudcat
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 22 Apr 99 - 06:10 AM Perhaps religions' policy should be one of "attraction, not promotion". Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:56 PM Wow! Steve, my sentiments exactly! My head is reeling from trying to follow everyone's POV, however diverse. Suffice it to say that if everyone really followed the *heart* of whatever path up the mountain was theirs, be it Christian, Islam, Buddhism, or the Church of To Whom It May Concern, instead of letting egos and power trips direct them instead, the world would be a much better place, and the children wouldn't be in such a mess. Thank the Higher Power for music- it seems to be able to express the unexpressable and hold us together better than most doctrines or dogmas! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: steve in ottawa Date: 21 Apr 99 - 06:56 PM Wow. Go away for a few days and find *this* thread. Glad to see Joe Offer is so active again.
Just a couple of notes from an atheist's point of view:
Well, there, I've put my foot in it now :-) Steve |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:48 AM OK, now we're getting somewhere, Hank. The classic (Emma Goldman) definition of anarchy is that 'authoritarianism is always wrong, as well as unneccesary.' That is the hard-line. You are talking about government as a *neccesary* evil...obviously the examples are not important, we both used murder earlier because it's so simple. I agree with you: as long as we have governments, as long as we are too weak to live as free individuals, we should work to ensure that those governments protect us from murderers and child-beaters. Right. That is not easy--it encompasses a thousand different struggles, each of immense importance. What I think is added by *anarchy*, per se, is the point that we should not stop at those struggles, and we should not accept the condition of governance as an ultimate neccesity for human society................Careful with Gödel, there. In the first place, he was a crazy weasel with a funky haircut. But in the second place, the Gödelian incompleteness theorem only applies to discrete mathematical systems, and all that it says is that there are--neccesarily--paradoxical statements within such systems. In logic, the simplest such statement is 'This statement is false.' Gödel himself went on from there to use the math as a metaphor for humanity's metaphysical condition, but it's a rather weak argument. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:05 AM good question seed. My first order of buisness is to live as a loving servant of God. Getting into how you are wrong, pointing out your faults is not living by love. Telling someone that they are wrong is not living by love unless you can say it in a way that will make them change to the right - something I cannot do. I belive that the most important thing is to live right and set an example. Then God moves into those who see the right example and makes them think about why I'm different. Then God arranges the right people (not nessicarly me, the one who harvests may not be the one who planted) to move in an enlighten the searching soul. Ethan, I suppose you are confused, but I really can't think of a different way to put it. Other then to say that a non-cut and dried issue is parents who beat their kids vs parents who give a spanking when the kid needs it. The former is wrong to everyone, the latter is accaptable to some, wrong to others, I don't want to commint on that issue. Even though I do (of course) have a position, and in the case of beatings, they are wrong, and those who are involved probably need goverment intervention. Again, this is just one issue that I keep running against everytime I want to be a complete anarchist. In the 1930's Kurt Goldel (those two dots over the o) proved that there are truths in the universe that cannot be proven true, or there are proven (or proveable, maybe they haven't been proven yet) truths that are not true! When someone asks how I can beleive in religion that is my response. (It is called Goldel's incompletness therom) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 20 Apr 99 - 11:37 PM Yeah, but Hank--if all of us are going to hell because we don't believe as you do, and you believe in "all that love your neighbor stuff," how can you NOT tell us what the true religion is? Is denying us (your neighbors) our chance at salvation loving us? Is it "going the extra mile"? I ask as a challenge, not as a criticism. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 20 Apr 99 - 06:37 PM Ethan and Catspaw, WELL SAID! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 04:06 PM Congrats Ethan...on the right track. And you are certainly right about music. Faith is the ability to believe without proof; and all theist and atheist beliefs are grounded in the "proof" of something(s) being rock hard and factual at it's basic elements. If we can grant each other the differences in those basic elements as simply differing acceptances of the unknown, things are a lot more harmonius. It's just a thought and a question I often ask. I don't belong to either group so I try to keep asking for additional enlightenment. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 20 Apr 99 - 03:54 PM Hank, I am a little befuddled by your post. Catspaw49, you asked if there are any religions that don't require faith. Sounds a little weird to me; faith is, like, part of what makes it a religion, right? In general I think we're using the word 'religion' several different ways here: what Jesus (or Buddha, or Lao-Tse, or name-your-facorite-prophet) actually said, and how that gets interpreted. Most prophets are anti-mayhem, but a lot of organized religions seem to be pro-mayhem. Anyway, Catspaw, I think there are two answers to your question. First of all, a lot of people who go to church or synagogue or the woods or whatever aren't particularly faithful: religions provide social order and stability, and it is not so very hypocritical to find one's community there even if one does not believe the creed. Second, there are non-creedal religions (eg the Quakers, the Unitarians, Hinayana Buddhists, and so forth). Thirdly, (right, I know I said two, but I don't know how to backspace) there are a lot of non-religious, non-theistic ways to find meaning and virtue in the world...and art is one of those. I don't need faith in anything to enjoy music... |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM Agreed Joe...which is for me what makes the most classic threads. I think Leej referred to it as creep...ambling around to totally unrelated or vaguely related topics, but eventually tying back up. Generally the most informative and often the funniest threads too. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 99 - 01:22 PM Uh...because I forgot about your Corvette post in the "Today" thread, Catspaw... Still and all, although we got a bit off the exact topic of the song, didn't we say just about everything there was to say about "Today" and its sociological impact? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 99 - 12:04 PM Uh Joe, out of curiosity, why did you think I was befuddled by the "Today" thread? catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 20 Apr 99 - 10:51 AM Ethan, I used murders as an example. I'm not so shallow as to have that as the only issue I have. However murder is pretty straigt forward, not all the others are. I try to live by "Love they neighbor as theyself", and "Go the extra mile" Though they are not as easy to live as they are to say. Yes, I belive that those who don't belive exactly like me are going to hell. But that doesn't give me the right to violate any of the love they neighbor stuff. (Besides I'm not without sin so I won't be casting the first stone). You have a right to be wrong is what I say, and I cannot prove byond a shadow of the doupt that Cathloics are wrong, even though I beilve it fully. Nor for that matter can I prove athism is wrong. I'm not quite as unwilling as Kat to discuss religion, but pretty close. As a wise philospher once said (obvious a centry ago, but sometime after Martin Luther, and obviously in the western world) "All sensible men are of the same religion. But what religion that is, no sensible man will ever say" I think that is how I wish things to remain, so I will not tell you what the right religion is. (and I'm sorry for picking on the catholics above) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:52 PM PS Thanks, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:49 PM I'm the first to admit that many have misused religions for their own political/power purposes, and also that many societal norms are at best foolish and at worst inherently evil. My third point above was simply that, IMHO, during the recent decades of cultural revolution our society has largely thrown out the baby with the bath water. Much of the violence we see around us is a result. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:30 PM Dearest Joe: well put and I agree. I do NOT advocate a "cleansing" of our language etc. to dismiss Christianity. Poor Longhair,indeed! Well, LH, if this one's too much for a newbie, try the others. You'll get a grand taste of the diversity which makes this community truly an eclectic "bag". We may have our differences, but we surrreee are poe-lite about 'em, most of the time! Now, Joe! You've been holding out on us with camp songs? I'VE NEVER heard such sacriligious ones in my life, YOU DISSIDENT, YOU! I'm gonna start a thread just for Joe's camp songs, unless you tell me there's already been one!**GRIN** By the way, Rog (my "spouse" rhymes with "mouse" that's why I am a Kat!), is a former Catholic. He was raised by a very devout French Canadian father and first generation FC American mom. I've learned the younger generations, i.e. his siblings and himself, take it tongue in cheek and decide for themselves what seems to be right for them, within the context of their faith. I would classify them all as dissidents. Rog has since become more Zen in his beliefs than anything else. He still has cousins and scads of other relatives who are either monks or nuns and follow the doctrines to the letter, which is their right. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 19 Apr 99 - 06:25 PM Sorry, Joe, I think I was referring to the fact that we both consider ourselves Christians, not where we fall on that (broad) spectrum. I don't know what I was thinking-- to refer to you as traditional (BTW, you never answered my crack about the lighthouse picture.) :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:35 PM He may be stodgy, but his album's on the charts! |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:27 PM I think our music means a lot less if there isn't some thinking behind it. All this stuff we're talking about in this thread is important as a foundation for our music, so I certainly think it's appropriate to discuss it here. I know I haven't won Catspaw over to my point of what works and what doesn't work in the forum. Poor Catspaw was completely befuddled by the Today thread, where a discussion of a syrupy song evolved into a discussion on how to compromise one's musical values in attempts to attract the opposite sex. Anyhow, I think this thread is interesting and fun. Isn't that what we're here for? -Joe Offer- bbc, I'm not what Catholics would consider to be "traditional." I'm proud to say there are some who would label me a "dissident," but I consider myself to be be just as Catholic as our stodgy old pope is. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 05:01 PM Kind of a Mudbath I think. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:58 PM Wheeew! This sure is an interesting topic for a *music* bulletin board! :) I am reading the posts from Jon, kat, Joe, etc. w/ bated breath. I'm glad that we are thinking people w/ strong feelings & beliefs. I hope we can keep our sense of harmony & balance, too. I come from the traditional Christian side, as Joe does, but find only minimal dissonance in being a woman in that setting. I'm sure that men, as well as women, find some points of disagreement in any organizations in which we are members. I am really enjoying this exchange of thoughts, but here's poor longhair--new to the group--wondering what in the world he's landed in!!! :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:40 PM Sure, Catspaw - just send me all your money, and I'll make sure you're "saved." -Joe Offer- Jesus puts his money in the First Wisconsin Bank |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:35 PM I ain't touching this one with a 1000 foot lightning bolt. Anybody got a religion that doesn't require an element of "faith"---including all theist, including pagan beliefs, and atheist doctrines? Just wondering...... catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 04:02 PM Points well taken, Kat. I still contend that those who commit atrocities in the name of religion are rarely following the basic beliefs of their own religions. As a Catholic, I am ashamed of the awful things done in the name of my religion - the Crusades, the Inquisition, IRA terrorism, and perhaps in part even the Holocaust. The Crusades and the Inquisition had an "official" authority from the Powers That Be in the Catholic Church, but those in power at the time were hardly what one would call "religious." Alexander VI was pope during the Spanish Inquisition - he was also the father of the infamous Lucretia Borgia. During the Crusades, the papacy was certainly more a political throne than religious. Maybe part of the problem is that the people who are really religious tend to be meek and gentle, not the type of people you expect to find as winners when there's a struggle for power. Power goes to those who strive for it. However, if I am a meek, religious person and allow my church to be led by a tyrant, then I must bear some responsibility for the tyrant's actions. I realize that Christianity has been dominant in our society far too long, and things need to be put into balance. However, I disagree with those who seek to cleanse all vestiges of Christianity from our language and culture. There are Christians who seek to dispose of Christian traditions because they had pagan origins, and I disagree with them, too. We will all be much poorer if such a cleansing is allowed to succeed. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 03:21 PM Oh, Joe, what about all of the church "fathers" who participated in the Inquisition; all of the church members, Protestant & Catholic, in Ireland who kill each other; the Muslims who do go to worship on a regular basis or Isrealis, etc. etc. I don't agree that most don't attend services. And, they are usually follwing the examples their leaders have preached to them. Also, I thoguht I was being careful enough that I did NOT mean I thought Jon W. was preaching to me. I don't care if you wish me a Merry Christmas, or mention J.C., but I would also like to be able to wish someone a Merry Solstice and mention the "god of my heart" without feeling like I might be persecuted for not being mainstream. A Wiccan friend of mine, here, in the USA, had his home firebombed because he was perceived to be abnormal by some "well-meaning" fundamentalists. No offense, but Christianity has, as men have (YES! I am a feminist and proud of it!), been "on top of the world" for a long time, i.e. in power/control, with plenty of time and opportunity to oppress women and anyone who was not of like mind. When I hear Christians complaining about there now being more vocal diversity, I feel they need to be a bit more tolerant and understand that oppression will not continue to the detriment of those of us who may call ourselves something other than what they think is correct. I believe Jesus, the Buddha, etc. were ALL great teachers and Avatars. They acted as the direct teachers and disciples, if you will, of God, the Supreme Being/Great Spirit, whatever. Jesus was probably the greatest of these. I hope you are right. I hope that our world does come to experience the peace and love that he taught and which, in my mind, have been so grossly misinterpreted by his followers, used more for their own means and end, rather than selflessly, as he set an example of. I don't believe he ever meant for his teachings to be use to oppress, to gain wealth and pwoer, all of which church "fathers" have traditionally used it for. In this country, we have people who call themselves Christian, who attend church, and then tell the rest of us that we will burn in hell for not believing as they do; or the really extreme ones who would like to annihilate myself and many others whom they are so fearful of. Most of my family consider themselves to be Christians. You know that I respect you and value your opinions, as well as that of everyone else's. Again, what I am trying to say is: be tolerant of the rest of us. Do not tell me a certain way is the only way. BTW, Joe, since you are close to Rosicrucian Park, next time you are up that way, you might wnat to check out the following books which are sold in the Alexandria Bookstore, there: The Secret Doctrines of Jesus & The Mystical Life of Jesus, both by H. Spenser Lewis. For anyone else who is interested, they can be ordered by phone at 1-888-767-2278. Whether you agree with them or not, they are interesting reading. Boy, I've put my foot in it now, haven't I? Last time I ever "discussed" religion was in 1973, with a now ex-brother-in-law, who told me into half of the night that I was going to hell for not being a member of his church. And, I was Christian at the time! I promised never to discuss it, again, and now here I am! I don't know who is sorrier, me or you all for having to listen! Sorry:-> From the opinionated katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: longhair Date: 19 Apr 99 - 02:57 PM thanks bcc! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 02:29 PM Hi, Kat - I gotta respectfully disagree back - I call myself a liberal, but I usually find I agree with Jon W. (and that really bugs me, since he calls himself a conservative [grin]). I don't think Jon was "preaching" at all - I think he was just expressing his beliefs, and expressing them quite well and quite convincingly. The reign of Christ that he's hoping for is a reign of justice and peace. If it happens, I think you'll enjoy it - even if you don't happen to be Christian. If it isn't Christ who brings justice and peace, I sure hope SOMEBODY does. Many people who call themselves "liberal" seem to have developed a definition of religious tolerance that really alarms me. It seems to me that they're saying, I am completely unprejudiced toward you and your religious beliefs. But please, don't make any mention of your religious beliefs if I am within earshot. Oh, and be sure that your religious beliefs do not affect how you act toward other people. Oh, yes, I almost forgot - please don't use any words that are connected with your religion. I might be offended if I happen to hear you say words like "Christmas" or "Jesus."I really think I should be able to say "Merry Christmas" and not have to worry about offending anybody. Secondly, while I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to say that I haven't found any major religions in this world whose basic beliefs permit the violence and murder that has been done in the name of religion (no, not even Islam). The atrocities done in the name of religion are cruel perversions of religion. I think you'll find that the people who commit these atrocities in the name of religion usually are people who spend very little time in church. 'Nuff said. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:57 PM Confused? I WAS! Sorry, please see my posting to the second Kosovo thread, where I asked the original question about religions. I was posting to both of these and the topics were so similar, I messed up. Please accept my apologies. Thanks, katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:48 PM " Jon W said: "Third, I believe we need to learn from the successes and failures of those who went before us - if cultural institutions and norms have survived for thousands of years why should our generation throw them away as worthless things?" As a woman, I for one am glad that some of the institutions and norms of the past thousands of year have NOT survived, as I am sure people of other minorities feel, too, esp. African Americans. Perhaps this is too obvious of a reply and maybe it isn't what you menat, Jon, but I had to point it out. This is almost like saying we should still be "bleeding" people instead of using the advances in medicine which have come about, esp. in the century. For me, evolution and enlightenment mean humankind is ever spiraling upward in consciousness, which in and of itself, requires a letting go of old ways and "norms" which are not for the highest good of all concerned. It is obvious you are writing from a Christian perspective, which is is your right to do and I do respect that. And, lest you think me prejudice against LDS, please let me tell you: my favourite aunt has been a devout member all of her life; my dad is married to an LDS member whom I love; I grew up with a lot of friends who are still LDS, and even was briefly married to a member; and, attended summer music camp at BYU, when in jr. high in Colo. So I am NOT prejudice. My only problem with the stance you presented is that most believe that that is what should "rule" all of us, Christian or not. As a liberal, I ask that I be allowed to practise my beliefs without being preached to by those of a different faith. I am NOT referring to you or your posting specifically here. Please know I do not intend any offense. What I had originally posted in this thread, was my point that almost all wars, traditionally can be traced back to a religious difference. I believe all spirituality leads to the same destination, just by different paths, at different levels of consciousness, and states of being. Therefore, my question, once again, is why do those who disagree about religion still have to kill one another over it? Why should someone else's religion take precedence over my own beliefs and dictate my life? katlaughing, repsectfully disagreeing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Peter Fisher Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:23 PM Going back to an earlier question about why much folk music has a left-wing bent, it seems to me that folk music is inherently populist. That is, it is music about the lives of ordinary people, working people, and generally expresses respect for and faith in "just plain folk." And a corollary to that is the populist distrust or disdain for large organizations, bureaucracy, authority, elitists, upper class twits, bosses, the rich, corporations, phonies, people who "straddle a fence, as only a eunuch can" (why am I suddenly thiking of Bill Clinton?), liberals who are devoutly liberal "as long as it doesn't cost them money, or affect them personally" (sorry for not getting the quote right, Phil), etc. Those fundamentally populist sentiments can be directed also at Big Government and brief-case toting bureacurats, in which case they take on a more right than left wing cast, or at least anarchic. Somehow it seems that those on the right, when they get mad, are less likely to burst into song. It also seems to me that the Right has been doing a much better job of tapping into these populist sentiments lately than has the Left (if there is one) or the Center, which is unfortunate because it means we then get populist rhetoric in support of policies that are fundamentally against the interests of the common people. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:11 PM Kat, perhaps we should also mention to Mr. Gargoyle that Lisa is the only character on the show that consistantly shows compassion for others. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM LEJ--nice to be in agreement wich'ya. I think our earlier disagreement was mostly semantic... Katlaughing--Yes, everyone has to deal with the labels other people use to describe them: gays and lesbians are a case in point. But if we preserve those labels *outside* the realm of responding to labellers, then we become reactionary: we are letting our enemies define us. Gays and lesbians, unfortunately, have often been a case in point there too. Hank--Murderers are upsetting, yes. But it sounds like you are limiting your view of possible worlds to the platter that the State presents: cops vs. robbers. Welfare vs. Poverty. 'Defense' vs. Occupation. Might I suggest that there are other options?..............I've only voted once, and it was Republican. Goes to show. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Jon W. Date: 19 Apr 99 - 11:59 AM I consider myself conservative for a number of reasons: first, I believe that largely-unfettered capitalism/free-market economy is the best system possible under current circumstances - where the self-centered desires of the rich can produce (even unintentionally) tangible benefits for all. That said, I have come in recent years to regard unions as being a necessary counterbalance to the avarice of capitalists (although I believe that they have been somewhat misused). Second, I have no faith in the ability of the few (i.e. the intelectual "elite") to come up with real working solutions to the problems we face. That is to say I believe that only by allowing billions of individuals freedom to make their own decisions (and serve their own interests), will the world improve, and NOT THROUGH CENTRAL PLANNING. The Soviet Union was a perfect illustration of the abject failure of central planning (i.e. communism/socialism/statism). Third, I believe we need to learn from the successes and failures of those who went before us - if cultural institutions and norms have survived for thousands of years why should our generation throw them away as worthless things? Two such norms about which I have particularly strong feelings are the ideas of the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of life. Fourth, I have a lurking fear that attempts to found a "world government" will end up being coercive in the extreme. The NATO (read American/British) action against Serbia is an example of this. I do believe that we will have a single world government at some point in the future - when He comes whose right it is to rule. I feel no inconsistency in my religious and political beliefs and my enjoyment of folk music. If I enjoy traditional instruments and traditional music, why shouldn't I also enjoy traditional values and traditional philosophies? I too had begun to despair that I was the only conservative Mudcateer. I'm glad to see that I'm not all alone. For the record I am male, 43, of Northern European/British Isles extraction, and Latter-Day Saint (Mormon). |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:43 AM Ah, Pete, I wasn't pickin' on ya! Sorry! I know you didn't mean it as a set and fast truth. Don't you dare just kick up yer heels, although if ya just wanna scream at us, go ahead!:-) Gargoyle: Lisa Simpson is the only erudite member of the Simpson family in the cartoon on television called the Simpsons. Her character plays the sax. kat |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Roger the zimmer Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:32 AM tho' the performers may be predominently liberal/left, a lot of the repertoire is narrowly nationalistic and chauvinistic, jingoistic, even. (Discuss: use only one side of the paper...) |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: hank Date: 19 Apr 99 - 09:27 AM I'm an Anarchist, plane and simple. Too bad there are murders and others in similear catagories that force me to not act in any way on those beliefs. We gotta have police, we gotta have defense (cause not everyone is christian or at least not a religion that is pacifist as a second choice. All those killing in the name of Jesus are not christian despite what they claim) There are a few other issues like the above that cloud my thinking too. Things like why can't everyone be nice. Why can't everyone pick perfect spouses to live with for life, and not have kids until they can support them. Lots of other things too, which in themselves are not overly bad, but when you follow them out, suddenly I either have to let someone starve to death/suffer too much (a little suffering is normal for everyone) and suddenly I have to agree to a little welfare just to stop, and then where does it end? (But if your a healthy adult who expects to get social security after it is bankrupt, don't expect sympathy from me, anyone who ran the numbers could see that the system couldn't work year ago, so if you belive the liers/polititians and didn't create your own way it is your own fault. Nothing is simple. I am an Anarchist, but there are issues that prevent me from acting on my beliefs. I guess thats why I never voted libratarian, even though they are closest to anarchist. |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 19 Apr 99 - 01:18 AM WAAAAAAHHHHHH!!! first Alistair now Kat. You're all out to get at me!! I'm going to lay on my back and kick my heels and scream and scream and scream until I'm sick so there! I understand that what I wrote came across like that Kat, but that wasn't quite what I meant. What I was trying to get at was the variabilty of the meaning of a given label to different people. Trouble with labels is that they are so damn useful as shorthand that we use them out of lazyness when they are not appropriate. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: gargoyle Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:39 AM Thank you dick! Most enjoyable parody
LaughKat - Who is "Lisa Simpson?" |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:29 AM Holy Cow, what a group! Allan S. You only have to ask, and Presto! An actual RIGHT WING folksong is presented for your enjoyment. And Gargoyle old chap, if you drop by this thread again, finally there'll be something here to make you smile. Love the "cat". |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:21 AM Pete M.: Welcome comrade!**Smile** You say labels only have validity in the minds of their creator. which can be true, but unfortunately our world is so full of them, in general, there are so many who suffer because of this. My gay and lesbian friends are labeled and have to deal with the consequences every day of their lives, at work, in their neighborhoods, churches, etc. As had and still does anyone who is seen as "different" by any other group. I am not trying to pick on you, because I think you and I agree on a lot of things. And, I am NOT saying we, any of us, do that here at the Mudcat. I believe the only way we can overcome those labels and their effect is to educate, as I've said before, and to enter into reasonable dialogue with the so-called outsiders. By welcoming so many of such diverse backgrounds and ideologies, the Mudcat does indeed become a common ground, a leader, dare I say, a microcosm of how the world could be. bbc: I have to apologise for forgetting to mention that I, too, voted Republican, a couple of times, for a member of Congress in MA and a governor in CT, BUT out here in the sticks of Wyomin' THEY would be considered traitors to the Party, for being too liberal and reasonable to be GOP! I try NOT to have a strictness when it comes to voting, I vote for who I think is best for the job, or in most cases, which is the lesser of two evils.:-> katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 99 - 12:12 AM Margie, the big difference in us as we age becomes the scope of things we consider important. As a young man, I thought I could, with others, change the world. Now I'm happy with tiny pieces. You're probably aware that Karen and I have been active in children's issues for 7 or 8 years. We are foster parents but also children's rights advocates and active in areas of abuse and neglect. Almost miniscule differences made within one kid are reasons to celebrate, because the cynicism of age also plays a strong tune. It's getting tougher and tougher...ya' know, I've said it privately, but I may as well throw it in here too. One of the big catch phrases over the past few years has been, "It takes an entire village to raise a child." Well........that wouldn't be true if so many in the village weren't assholes! Sorry, but it's the cynicism of reality. Ambrose Bierce said a cynic was "a Blackguard, who sees things as they are instead of how they ought to be." Want to know the worst? We work closely with primary families that have often committed the most heinous acts...and yet we often see all too well how those things came to happen. One day you realize that, there, but for grace.......... Never feel that doing little things isn't doing a lot. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Margo Date: 18 Apr 99 - 10:05 PM Rick, the group you mention reminded me of Benjamin Franklin's group the Junto. He formed the group of leather-apron men to discuss philosiphy, different authors, and current local concerns. The group you were invited to sounds like it lacked openness. I have often admired Franklin for all his deeds. He never once patented any of his inventions because he wanted everyone to be able to use them. In context of this thread, I can say that I have often wished to see such do-ers as Franklin. Politics on a grand scale in my opinion, pale in importance to what we can do for ourselves at a local level. It all begins at home. The only thing I'm doing locally is teaching Vancouver's children's choir this summer. How that ties in I don't know! Margie |
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Subject: Lyr Add: UNIVERSAL PACIFIST From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:43 PM Not to take sides, but I present (for consideration): UNIVERSAL PACIFIST
He's five foot two and he's six foot four
He's a Catholic, a Quaker, and Atheist, a Jew
And he doesn't love Canada, he doesn't love France
And he's selling out democracy, he's fighting for the Reds
But without him how could Hitler have ever conquered France
He's the universal pacifist, his placards all declare
_____ parody of Universal Soldier UNIVSOLD |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:32 PM Hellfire, you don't even have to play all that nice. Welcome to the VILLAGE OF MUDCAT !!! Way back up this thread I said that labels are a convenience as tags for the less creative and non- thinking people to classify things...no thought is required. You all justify my faith in you by showing such general agreement. Moonchild, I dedicate "atrophied rhetoric" to you and you may use it as you wish. There is room for all thinking people at Mudcat...for the rest we can supply them with food, lodging, and tiples at the "Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed." catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:30 PM I reckon that just about sums it up Rick, every other bugger in this Caff is out of step - except me! Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Rick Fielding Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM About 7 years ago I was part of a men's get together "group". There were usually about five to seven guys at a time, and we'd meet at someone's home to talk about concerns, things, triumphs, failures etc. I was invited to join by a friend who thought I'd enjoy it. These were and are fine people and I guess they felt that I was "one of them" because of my folk music background, and general "lefty" outlook. Within a few weeks our group took on a kind of "Lord of the Flies" dynamic (which was no surprise to me) and my role seemed often to be one part court-jester, one part peace-maker (often through humour) and one part "fecal-rearanger". I just couldn't help "overdosing on rightiousness" at times. They all read Robert Bly, and often seemed unwilling to even question some of his assertions. When the suggestion was made that we all venture to the woods for a weekend to dance naked and beat drums, I had to back out. I used to have to put up with bad drummers when I worked in bars...but at least I got paid for it. I'm afraid that some of us, even though we "know the songs", and would like to "join the band" are just destined to march to our own drummers. 'Figure there's quite a few of us on the "cat". |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: bbc Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:15 PM yes, longhair, you can stay & play! :) bbc |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: longhair Date: 18 Apr 99 - 09:05 PM well, let me start off by sayin' i'm new here. i love music. blues, folk, old country, old rock, some bluegrass, and a little of a whole bunch of stuff. I hope i don't start out on the wrong foot here, but by looking over this thread, it seems i may be a minority. i consider myself mostly conservative. now you wouldn't know it by looking at me, longhair(hence the nickname), beard, earring, in my very early 40's. i just thought i'd let y'all know, there is at least one in the crowd. if i play nice, will you let me stay????.........:)....longhair |
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: Pete M Date: 18 Apr 99 - 08:48 PM Labels only have validity in the mind of their creator. Apart from the fact that I know people who would like to have me "sent back to Russia" and others who think I'm a jack booted fascist, any attempt to apply left / right concept across national perceptions is ludicrous. As everyone has said, you can only follow your consience. I have no brains according to the dictum ascribed to Churchill above, but I think in using this saying, we need to bear in mind that pre Thatcher, an English conservative with either lower case or capital "C" was a far cry from the current political right, with (generally) a deeply held belief in their responsibility to serve their country. That this attitude is now dismissed by the "left" as paternalism and looked down on, is I think narrow minded and says more about them than their target. The only people for whom I still have an almost irrisistible urge to get down the AK47, are amoral self servers. All I ask of anyone is that they are prepared to accept that alternative viewpoints can be as valid, and agree to disagree. Having said all that I have no doubt that in the US I would be a "left wing pinko" and be proud of the label. Pete M
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Subject: RE: Music, Politics and Mudcat From: LEJ Date: 18 Apr 99 - 07:15 PM Ethan! I agree with you (for maybe the first time)! Preconceived notions about our political labels and identities keep us from getting the truth squarely in focus. Alright, so this statement is coming from a guy who has only voted Republican once in 30 years...and she was running for State Treasurer...LEJ |
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