|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Greg F. Date: 14 May 10 - 07:50 AM i...t is OUR coastline they are destroying... Actually, Kendall, its our coastline WE are destroying by permitting off-shore drilling without the technology to prevent this sort of thing. Never should have been allowed in the firt place. A classic case of "We have met the enemy, and he is us". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 14 May 10 - 06:13 AM We have a disaster of major proportions here and we have a right to be pissed off! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: Stu Date: 14 May 10 - 04:23 AM I agree with Joe - I really don't see why anyone's a bigot or why BP shouldn't be blamed. Why would it be insult for Obama to criticise? As far as I'm concerned he's bang on the money. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 May 10 - 04:20 AM On my various visits to rural Illinois and Urban St Louis I have been led to believe that BP was not seein a British company anyway - This was mainly from my Cousin who is an ex-pat British national since 1962. He did back up his claim by asking some friends what they believed BP stood for and 100% of the half dozen said 'Better Petrolium'. Now, I know 6 or 7 is not representative of the US. Neither is the Mudcat but I ask here whether anyone else thought it was British. If the general population and/or the politicians in question do not see BP as British I think it hardly fair to say that they are bigoted againts the British. Not saying thta your are wrong, Richard. Just it is possible that you may be misplacing your ire! Cheers DeG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Joe Offer Date: 14 May 10 - 03:58 AM BP shows their ownership as 39% US, 44% UK. Since UK-US ownership is almost equal, it would seem not to be an insult to Britain for a US President to criticize the company. This article says
In back-to-back Senate inquiries, lawmakers chastised executives of the three companies at the heart of the massive spill over attempts to shift the blame to each other. And they were asked to explain why better preparations had not been made to head off the accident. "Let me be really clear," Lamar McKay, chairman of BP America, told the hearing. "Liability, blame, fault – put it over here." He said: "Our obligation is to deal with the spill, clean it up and make sure the impacts of that spill are compensated, and we're going to do that." By "over here," McKay meant the witness table at which BP, Transocean and Halliburton executives sat shoulder to shoulder. And despite his acknowledgment of responsibility, each company defended its own operations and raised questions about its partners in the project gone awry. Seems to me, Richard, that all three companies acknowledge their responsibility. Why can't you? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 May 10 - 03:37 AM The speeches that I heard were attacks on BP ("British Petroleum"). They were by Americans. The faults were the faults of the subcontractors. The subcontractors were American, but not attacked in the speeches. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Joe Offer Date: 14 May 10 - 12:54 AM That was then, Q, but this is now. Do the oil companies still employ most of their workers, or have they followed the corporate ethics changes of the 1990s and contracted out most of the work. You're right that once upon a time, oil companies were very good in their treatment of employees, and reasonably good employees could count on having a lifelong career and good benefits and a good pension. But corporate ethics began to chance in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, corporations no longer seemed to have any loyalty toward employees - and I found out the hard way that my employer, the U.S. Government, no longer had loyalty to me as an employee. Nowadays, corporations and the government have loyalty only to their management personnel. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 13 May 10 - 09:59 PM Has anything been learned? "It has yet to announce plans to drill in the region but shortly before the U.S. disaster, BP and other oil companies urged Canadian regulators to drop a requirement stipulating that companies operating in the Arctic had to drill relief wells in the same season as the primary well. Cullen argued the companies had made this request because drilling a relief well within the required time limit would be too expensive, given the difficult Arctic conditions". Full story: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1326556220100513?type=marketsNews |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 May 10 - 09:25 PM First to Kendall- Royal Dutch Shell is the one you are thinking of. Joe, you are wrong about the hiring policies of the major oil companies. Their workers are highly paid. They get good pensions upon retirement- I am one of the pensioners. The man in charge of the BP well receives six figures, and the chief technician gets close to that or the same. The professionals are the best that universities can produce with at least four years engineering or earth sciences degrees. The procedures and exploration programs are usually led by Ph.D. level specialists. I was with an Exxon company, but I worked on cooperative projects with employees of other major companies; their training was equivalent. As a geological exploration specialist, I worked with other Ph. D graduates- in my own group one from London Univ. and one from Utrecht; my own from a Big Ten University. Our technicians were 2-4 year program graduates of approved technical schools. I hesitate to sort out blame- but the decision-makers, often econonics-finance-business graduates as well as the Board- sometimes take short-cuts to reduce expenses or to maximize profits (which could be for me, my next-door neighbor, employees, my daughter's teacher's pension fund, etc.- and we all want more). I also blame the regulatory agency of the government, MMS, which allowed short-cuts on this and several other BP wells which were breaking new ground, and hence should have been required to have the best and latest (but even that may have been not enough in this case). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil From: Charley Noble Date: 13 May 10 - 08:56 PM There's plenty of blame to spread around to the subcontractors, including Haliburton, but as people have pointed out BP bears the primary responsibility. To their credit BP executives have assured the public that they are also not going to hide behind the shield of $27 million in this instance. However, the detailed reports that surfaced yesterday in hearings spell out that in this instance there were warnings that were ignored in basic problems with the "blow-out preventer" system prior to well eruption and pipe rupture: 1. pipe integrity problems indicated from pressure tests 2. a significant hydraulic leak in the ram driver system 3. a dead battery that was supposed to activate the so-called "deadman" trigger 4. evidently the ram drive the operators spent a day trying to use after the blowout was the one especially re-configured to test the system and was no longer operational for any other purpose. I suppose that it's disturbing to some BP supporters that politicians in the US are racking them over the coals for this environmental disaster. But, gee, what the f**k should they expect? And in what way should politicians raising such questions in the House and Commerce Committee hearings be characterized as "bigots"? Joe, please delete this self-indulgent thread. Two threads are more than enough. And Mr. Bridge should apologize for initiating it. Charley Noble |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Tootler Date: 13 May 10 - 08:10 PM Richard, I think you are wrong. It seems that all the companies concerned are in the blame shifting business. All furiously trying to pass the buck on to someone else. Surely, BP as the ultimate contractor are ultimately responsible as they hired the others. If BP had been prepared to accept their share of the responsibility for the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, then I might have had some sympathy with them, but as they did not, then all power to Obama I say. Don't forget that it is the US that is suffering from the spill, so the US Senators are quite rightly concerned. If it had happened over here, I am sure our politicians would have responded in exactly the same way. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 May 10 - 07:53 PM OK, Richard, so where is the truth in your (original) thread title: US bigots attack British Company?? For one thing you neglected to say this was another oil spill thread. For another, you "spun" things by calling the American accusers "bigots" and BP "British." And thirdly, you bought BP's denial of responsibility - when what they did was evade responsibility by clouding the problem in subcontracts. You ask: Who do you think Big Oil predominantly owns? and Oh, and who do you think are the truly guilty companies and where are they based? I gave my answer - the multinational oil companies are not located in any one nation, and consider themselves to be immune to the control of any nation. What's your answer? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Riginslinger Date: 13 May 10 - 07:40 PM I've come to side with the folks who want to raise the price of fuel--either through taxes or some mechanism--to lower the demand. As long as there's a demand for this much petroleum, these things are going to happen more frequently, in my opinion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: kendall Date: 13 May 10 - 07:36 PM As I understand it, BP is now a Dutch company. Secondly, BP has a history of sloppy operations with numerous fines being laid on them. So, who should we blame? it is OUR coastline they are destroying and now they want us to limit their liability to a measly 27 million! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Bill D Date: 13 May 10 - 07:35 PM "BP made and operated NONE of those things." As owner and organizer of the operation, BP is ultimately responsible for oversight of those they hire to design, build & operate the platform. (Just as NASA was responsible for being sure Morton-Thiacol provided safe O-ring seals for the space shuttle) The supposed 'bigots' have noted the culpability of ALL relevant parties to this disaster. It really doesn't matter whether you 'believe' US congressmen are bigots or not, for even bigots can sometimes see the areas of responsibility in such cases. There is plenty of blame to go around on this one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 10 - 07:25 PM I really don't get the "bigot" part Richard. There is a general hatred for ALL of the oil companies no matter where they are or who owns them. What the average Joe sees here is that they rake in windfall profits and don't give a damn about the consumer. While there were probably hundreds of sub-contractors, the profits from that rig go to BP so we tend to believe they need to pay for the mess. Exxon didn't build the Valdez but the responsibility was theirs. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 07:12 PM Oh, and who do you think are the truly guilty companies and where are they based? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 07:11 PM Joe - you are right about multinationals evading responsibility - but wrong about the thread title. Who do you think Big Oil predominantly owns? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 May 10 - 06:18 PM I really have no quarrel with this being a separate thread, but I wanted to point out that there is a question whether it should be a new thread or a continuation of an earlier one. What I DO disagree with completely, is the original thread title. I believe that a thread title should be a factual and unbiased statement of the topic of discussion, and not a political statement. AND, at the very least, the original thread title should have mentioned that the thread had to do with the old spill. And now back to the topic of discussion. As has been said above, BP is a multinational conglomerate, not really a representative of the United Kingdom. Trying to make this into a US insult to the UK is a deception. And, as has also been stated above - the work may have been done by a BP subcontractor, but Obama and others are absolutely correct in looking through the smokescreen and pointing the finger at BP because it IS a BP project. This whole thing illustrates twin evils that are very pervasive in today's corporate world: These two aspects of multinational corporate chicanery allow corporations to be completely above legal control. Corporations no longer have to honor labor laws, or pay for benefits and pensions and vacations for employees - they get their workers from "job shops" that never allow employees to work long enough to get benefits or pensions. Corporations no longer have liability for mistakes, since their risky work is performed by short-lived "limited liability corporations." If a nation enacts statutes to protect workers, multinationals just move the work to another country. And the list of evasions goes on and on and on. Our multinational corporations are morally and ethically bankrupt. And this oil spill is a good illustration of how they have developed tactics that allow them to screw the entire world, cheating all of humanity and doing irreparable damage to nature - totally evading all responsibility and liability. Governments do the same things nowadays. I worked 25 years of the 30 I needed to earn a full U.S. Government pension. But the Clinton administration privatized my job, so now I'm trying to live on half the pension I expected. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 May 10 - 06:14 PM After the fire and loss of life at the BP refinery in Texas, many Americans question the safety record of BP. More lives unfortunately lost in this Texas blowout. But I also think most Americans throw BP in the same pot as Exxon-Mobil, Shell, Chevron, Total, Petronas, Petrochina, what have you, rather than regarding it as particularly British. Just another big oil company. The blame game gets us nowhere. The well, in 5000 feet of water and drilling into a seismic prospect at great sedimentary depth, was at the limit of engineering knowledge. A blowout from the high pressure encountered in the formation may not have neen controllable. BP, as operator, is 'responsible', but the regulatory body, MMS, should bear blame for not questioning the objective and requiring more stringent controls. BP is trying to spread the blame (statements in the Senate hearing) because the cost is going to be huge; I would guess that legal proceedings will be prolonged. But the cost to individuals and wildlife damaged by the blowout will never be fully compensated. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: PoppaGator Date: 13 May 10 - 06:07 PM I agree with Richard that this is a "separate" topic, about the national identity (or lack thereof) of the corporation, and whether or not people's reaction indicates some sort of nationalism or bigotry. (The fact that I do NOT completely agree with his position on the question is another matter entirely.) This oil spill is a pretty BIG topic, and (unfortunately) will probably continue to be relevant for a very long time. I don't think that it's at all inappropriate to maintain a few "subtopics," if they're well defined. I believe that the question of whether multinationals should ever be thought of as "belonging" to one nation or another is important, and that better understanding of the answer(s) can lead to deeper insight into a whole passel of contemporary socioeconomic and global-political issues. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: gnu Date: 13 May 10 - 05:51 PM Wrap em up, Joe. Good idea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 05:39 PM I had not read the others in that they seemed to be irrelevant to my perspective. I was an am infuriated by the clips I saw of partisan comment by US politicians. I am content if this thread is combined with others - but my perspective at present remains the same. |
|
Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company From: Joe Offer Date: 13 May 10 - 05:32 PM Well, now we have THREE threads on this subject:
I think there was another oil spill thread, one questioning Obama's statement that deep-water oil drilling is failsafe these days - but I couldn't find that thread because the title didn't mention oil. Seems to me that all of these discussions could be contained in a thread titled Louisiana Oil Spill, April, 2010 - and there would be far less duplication of comments. Maybe not, maybe there IS justification for having a number of threads on this oil spill - but I would ask for a bit of Truth In Titling. If you'r starting a thread about the oil spill, say so - don't title your thread with some sort of propaganda statement. We've had the same thing recently in threads about the Governor of Arizona, whom some Mudcatter seems to have a sexual fixation on because of her anti-Latino actions. Instead of actually stating what the thread was about, this Mudcatter titled the threads with statements about what a fine American she is, standing up for truth, justice, and the American Way. And then there is the pair of threads on Gay/Lesbian/Transgender folkies in the UK, and I'm still left wondering why there have to be TWO threads active on such closely related subjects in the same week. So, friends and neighbors, when you start a new thread, please try to think about two things:
Thank you. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Ed T Date: 13 May 10 - 05:29 PM who are the us in "us bigots"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 05:26 PM The ones in congress. I've seen the speeches. The problems are due to US companies and their defaults. If they could not do the job for the price they should not have taken it on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill) From: michaelr Date: 13 May 10 - 04:57 PM Which US bigots are you talking about, Richard? |
|
Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company From: PoppaGator Date: 13 May 10 - 04:48 PM While it may be true that "BP made and operated NONE of those things," BP was ultimately responsible. because they hired the various suppliers and subcontractors in question. They also, one might reasonably presume, instructed said subs about how much they were allowed to spend on safety precaustions. BP's record of recent operations worldwide seems to indicate a notable reluctance to take safety regulations seriously, and a general habit of cutting corners (financially) whenever possible. And, really, they're not "British Company" any more than Exxon/Mobile is "American." They're all multinational corporations, able to elude most of the controls, taxes, etc.,. that any one national government might wish to impose upon them. |
|
Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company From: Anglo Date: 13 May 10 - 04:40 PM BP isn't even "British Petroleum" any more, it's just BP. Is it still British? |
|
Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 04:24 PM OH shit, that should be BS please. |
|
Subject: US bigots attack British Company From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 May 10 - 04:24 PM From Reuters "On the Deepwater Horizon, three of those systems -- the blowout preventer, the metal casing within the well and the cement that held it in place -- all likely failed, according to testimony from company officials and data gathered by investigators from the House Energy and Commerce Committee." US politicians including Obama blame BP. BP made and operated NONE of those things. George III was right. |
