BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 11:46 AM

Mick, thank you for your clarification. I agree that Irish music which is wonderful doesn't require alcohol and tobacco to make it beautiful.

Most of the defenders of tobacco in public places where children can breathe it and consenting adults are being harmed by it are addicts.   The tobacco lobby has kept it from being cited by the FDA as an addictive substance because they make a lot of money on tobacco addicts.

I'm glad that other countries are waking up to the dangers of this chemical substance. I suppose that if people want to destroy their health, I can't stop them but I protest their doing harm to others by their disgusting habit.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 07:20 AM

Just one topic and then the giving the message: "Do nothing - keep everything the way it was before" doesn`t sound very active to me.
Especially as a poltitical party should provide solutions/concepts for othe problems of society as well instead of just keepimg the seats in parliament warm.
How about a slogan mentioning anoter topic: "Smokers out of Iraq!" ;0)
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 07:10 AM

Would you really stand for a party that wanted to just leave it to the pub landlords whether it was a smoking venue or not, skipy? Or do you think you can get them to do something more for non-smokers once you are in?

Not as it matters really. I suppose any fringe party will fare about as well as the other minority interests!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:40 AM

I have applied to stand for Wantage & Grove!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:08 AM

I got a reply - I will not cut and paste all of it unless someone is really interested. In a nutshell the answer to which pubs will be smoking and which will not is 'Market Forces'. The founder suggests that if non-smokers boycott pubs unless they go non-smoking there will be enough non-smoking venues. I don't feel that is much of a choice for me - go in smoky pubs or don't go in pubs at all - so I have written back suggesting they may be better trying to get licensed smoking venues etc. Maybe you can suggest your plan to them, skipy?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 03:03 PM

I have checked all STATED links, there is one to Dave Hitt, but none to othere parties.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:11 PM

No, the fear is that it may be BNP.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:55 AM

UKIP?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Dave.
Fair comment, I need to check that they are not affiliated to you know who!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:25 AM

I don't drink booze, so I don't really care if a pub shuts or not, and I don't smoke either.

to me a pub when there was smoking allowed in it really smelled bad you know stinking, and drunks loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM

4!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 11:18 AM

Looks good skipy! I have not checked out their pedigree so I do not know if they are affiliated to any other party - Hopefuly not! They deserve some sucess with the reservations I have voiced previously. To that end I have emailed them with the following -

I am not a smoker but I can certainly sympathise with your campaign if not entirely agree.

The reservation I have, and I am sure other people will have spotted it, is that I feel we will end up with more discriminination than we had before! If the owner of the venue has the right to choose whether to be smoking or not then, effectively, you will have two sets of pubs, restaurants, cafes etc. In addition to this, to ensure complete fairness, we need this split to be statisticaly compatible with the number of smokers and non smokers. At the moment, I believe, this is about 35% and 65% respectively. So, we need 35% of venues to allow smoking and 65% to not do so. Is there any fair way of deciding which venues will be which? Would your party be willing to take on that responsibilty? What happens were a village has only one pub? Do we change the split periodicaly as the statistics change? I think the logistics of the scheme would be a nightmare!

I am honestly not trying to put unreal hurdles in your way. If you can address these issues in a sensible way then I am sure that your campaign will go a long way and I, even as a non-smoker, would offer my support. You say yourself that you would not like to subject non-smokers to smoke etc. I am sure that you would not like to return us non-smokers to the situation I was in where, out of 30 local pubs, there was not a single no smoking venue. That is as bad as the discrimination that you are now objecting to.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards

Dave Polshaw

I realy am looking forward to the reply and will post it here when I get one.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:34 AM

Looks like I'm going into politics!
http://www.wecansmokeparty.com/
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:22 AM

Next time they do it, go over, thank them for the friendly, but original invitation in smoke-sign and eat and drink all you can manage. That should teach them! ;0)

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 07:15 AM

All I can say is your neighbours need lessons in proper barbequeing. A well made barbeque should have little or no smoke.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:16 AM

I will have to look into that Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:11 AM

There used to be legislation about garden fires that I am sure should cover BBQ's at one time. I guess if they are still in existance they are jut not enforced any more. Another example of inconsiderate people possibly bringing about legislation?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:49 AM

Oh, I forgot to say that they put their BBQ on the left hand side of the garden, as the wind was blowing from right to left, thus making sure they didn't get smoked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:43 AM

>>But how can you make sure that no smoke drifts over from a private garden (no public space as the qwner doesn`t open it for the public) to the street (definitely public space)?
<<

Maybe so, but soemthing worse than that, is the selfish bastards who have charcoal BBQ's in their small gardens.

A couple of evenings ago, our neighbours lit a BBQ and the smoke was flooding our garden and we had to shut all doors and windows and stay inside, in baking hot weather. We were going to have our dinner outside, but had to eat it inside. The smoking ban should extend to charcoal/coal BBQ's as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 02:22 AM

Big Mick:

are you a lawyer too? Your answer "cut the shit" is typical answer for a lawyer: short, precise and totally useless ;0)

I am not making your plan seem unworkable, it is so: according to your plan smoking is prohibited in public open spaces only. But how can you make sure that no smoke drifts over from a private garden (no public space as the qwner doesn`t open it for the public) to the street (definitely public space)?

For the issue discussed here (smoking in pubs): it is very likely that every (or nearly every) pub would declare itself a smokers place (because they would fear to lose smoking customers, the non smokers having tolerated smoke before). The effect of it is that as a non smoker I am forced to accept the effects on my health or stay away completely. Whereas all the law asks of the smokers is to go outside for the duration of their cigarette. Question of proportionality...

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:35 AM

well now the suns come out..

it was hardly any time at all before i noticed
smokers congregating outside open pub windows,

perching on the exterior window ledges..

chatting to their non-smoking mates
who were sitting at tables on the other side of the open window inside the bar..


whilst all the time puffing away obliviously blowing their noxious shite
inside the pub through those open windows
that were intended to allow in a comfortable cool refreshing breeze.....


selfish smoking twats !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 11:55 PM

Ernest, cut the shit. You know full well what I am speaking of. Public property is any outdoor area that the public uses. Basically tbhat means that if you aren't in your car or your house, you can't smoke, other than in clubs where they have stated that they are a smokers business. The point is that I should not, under any circumstances be forced to breath your poison against my will.

What you are attempting to do, and rather poorly I might add, is make it seem unworkable. The fact is it is a very doable plan because of its simplicity.

But it ain't gonna happen.........

So deal with the laws such as you see them.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 02:04 AM

Sorry Big Mick,
I still don`t get your concept. What about parking lots, entrances on private grounds etc.? Following your concept the owners would be able to allow it there.

How would you make sure the smoke doesn`t drift on public grounds? Make the smokers liable for the wind?

The "public spaces" you are writing about: what are they? Only property of the state? Or does this include property that is opened by the owner for the public? The latter definition would certainly include pubs...

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 10:45 PM

Frank, I hope you didn't miss the distinction I make as well. I make a pretty good amount of money playing Irish music, and I quite agree that the horse puckey about the drink and smoke is just that. My point is that there is a way that eliminates the arguments about so called "rights".

And Ernest, don't give me that crap about the outdoors. I am not talking about all of the outdoors. I am talking about public spaces. Do what you want on your own property, but you have no right on public property to force me to smell this disgusting crap. My proposal makes smokers move to where NO ONE has to live with their ugly, unhealthy habit.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:39 PM

Somebody is making some money out of it

Making money out of smoking ban

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 01:09 PM

I can't believe that some people would attribute Irish talent to smoking and alcohol. Makes no sense. Let the pubs change and maybe Irish music can be expanded to include people who value their health as well.

There is this pervasive myth that unless music contains smoking and drinking it somehow loses it's grittiness or folk-edge. It's part of the folk-pretentiousness that doesn't reflect the values of many traditional singers and pickers.

Glad the ban is started and maybe those who are insensitive to other people's lungs will get the message that it's not about "their rights" but the rights of others to be around them without having their air polluted by bad boys and girls.

I'm sick of going to music parties and events where it's somehow required to have drunks and wheezing tobacco smokers to give a phony "authenticity" to the precedings.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 11:14 AM

Wonder what is going to happen when the councils get tetchy about the amount of detritus being generated? Stop inside to smoke - £50 fine. Drop your dog end on the pavement £50 fine. Poor ol' smokers can't win:-(

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 11:11 AM

Now that the weather here has suddenly turned into summer for a bit, one result of the restrictions is becoming increasingly clear - virtually every eating or drinking establishment now has pavement tables. Including trasnport cafes.

It's a great improvement to the public environment in towns and elsewhere, and I think we should be grateful to the smokers who have brought it about.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 09:03 AM

You are all wasting your time trying to talk sense into smokers,they dont believe the doctors or the more sensible humans on this planet.They always know someone who is 120 year old and smoked from the age of six and never people who have never smoked and suffer the misery of illness caused by passive smoking.The only time they realise is when they are on their deathbed when giving up is too late.To all sensible people it is obviously the best thing that has ever happened,long live us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:08 AM

Skipy, you are disapointing me:

not in one word did you mention that the gasoline needed for cars is procured by George W. Bush inveding Iraq ;0)

Are you going to tell us that streets are paved with the tar from smokers cigarettes?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:35 AM

Completely different argument, skipy. I agree wholeheartedly that polution of all sorts should be eliminated and, eventualy, it will. Until then we have little alternative to the infernal combustion engine. Besides, this thread is about pubs closing because of the smoking ban. Not about polution in general.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 01:30 AM

This is an example of enterprise and how to make a success of things.

http://www.beertoday.co.uk/pubs300307b.htm

This pub is not in your posh high cost property area of Lincoln. In fact it is in a cheap property old terraced area of Lincoln.
I went there recently after the smoking ban. It is a shining example of how to do it.

They have even introduced a well stocked book swap scheme. Its great to see people reading books whilst they sup.
In fact I would say that the landlords have thought a lot about how to make a pub workand have thought about how to get joe public in.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 07:02 PM

Wow, you must be a cyclist & therefore don't produce any diesel or petrol fume & only eat things grown in your garden so they don't get delivered & of course you don't fly anywhere!
By the way, how was your bicycle made without producing fumes?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:07 PM

Big Mick,
I don`t understand why you want to prevent smoking outdoors. Thats the place where it can be avoided easiest and where the smoke disappears very fast. In a room it stays much longer.

And I think you are missing Bills point. This ban has been discussed in the public for some years and it was easily forseeable that the legislator would take steps and introduce regulations if there would be no voluntary agreements (Here in Germany the Publicians Association even took the initiative and made propaganda among its members that restaurants should voluntarily introduce a certain (small) percentage of non-smoking tables for each restaurant. The results of that initiative have been so ridiculously low that they weren`t even published). So there was a choice: either make your own decisions or have the legislature make them for you.

And yes, business is private property. Still it is no legal vacuum. You aren`t allowed to kill, injure, cheat etc. someone just because this happens in your private property.

Besides, if you want to stay in that picture: It is the smokers responsibility to keep their cancerogeous smoke out of my lungs, clothes etc. These are MY private property ;0)

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 04:19 PM

I'm a little disappointed in Bill's response. I don't know Ernest well enough, but he misses the distinction as well. First off, no public smoking outdoors. No one should be subjected to cig smoke involuntarily. Second off, Bill's argument about how no one chose the years before this went into effect misses the key point. Because the owners weren't forced to choose one or the other. The lazy smokers won't choose at all. Bill's answer smacks of a paternalistic attitude that he knows no one would follow the rules. My way forces a decision. In Bill's example the pubs didn't have to choose. Hence, they didn't. It's one or the other, no middle. And no one would be forced to live with the other unless they chose to. Under no cirmcumstances do I want your filty, stinking smoke. I don't want to walk through it, or be around it. You have no right to contaminate and injure my lungs and cvs. And I don't have an absolute right to go into any business I want. As long as the introduction of smoke to me is involuntary, I object. But if that restaraunt announces it is strictly a smoking place, I won't be in it.

BTW Ernest, public business is still private property. You don't have the same rights there. You don't have the right to go in, if the owner chooses not to let you in. Signage that indicates that owners reserve the right to refuse service abound.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 01:36 PM

LTS, it may be worth noting here that we had a small chat by the real ale bar at Towersey 2 years back simply because I was outside having a cigarette, havig just left the sing to do so.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 12:29 PM

Dave - I've not just caught up, my second posting suggests the pub owners do something to entice more customers in, rather than bemoan the loss of the others.

HoP Bar - staffed by "civil servants" - yes, we come in all guises! They sign the Official Secrets act and are subject to all manner of tests and inspections before they're allowed to work there. Even the cleaners are vetted and searched. The HoP bar is accessible only by those who work there, by members of Parliament and their guests. Even emergency services staff have to be escorted on and off the premises, as I discovered when the father of a friend dropped dead of a heart attack there some years ago.

I will bring my little giant to the north again, if I get another invite.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:59 AM

Hi Emma:

sorry to hear that you have health problems when together with people who are over-perfumed. While I have to admit that this can be annoying to other people (including me) as well I think as a cause for health problems this is an exception. Smoking on the other hand is dangerous even for bystanders as a rule.


And I still can`t see why smokers should be entitled to have a drink and a smoke at the same time while non-smokers are denied of their rights to have a drink and not be molested/endangered by smoke at the same time.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:55 AM

Oh - and Liz - I have been saying that all along (it's the pub owners own fault etc.) Glad to see someone has caught up at last:-) Must disagree about the HoP bar though. Other people CAN get in it. Or do the MP's serve behind the bar as well?

I do think that is more of a reflection on the integrity of our wonderful representatives, the same ones who are quite happy to award themselves huge pay increases every year, than it is on anything to do with the ban. A (smoked) red herring put about by people who are failing to convince us with other arguments.

Cheers

Dave

PS - When are you bringing that Giant of yours up to the frozen North again?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:30 AM

I am afraid that anyone who does not smoke in the presence of non-smoking fellow human beings does have every right to feel 'holier'. They are! I agree that there is no need to be offensive though.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 07:59 AM

No offence taken Dave. However I have a serious asthma like reaction to many of the modern deoderants and "perfumes" that some people like to pollute MY atmosphere with. At the very least they make all food taste disgusting and some public transport journeys impossible - do you really need to wear a ton of perfume to go shopping folks?

However I refrain from telling these people just how unpleasant they stink and that, in comparison, the smell of honest sweat would be 100% preferable and sweeter.

Maybe it would also be nice if these people could refrain from many of the disgustingly offensive remarks it seems "acceptable" to direct against smokers, people who are judged to be "over weight" etc and whichever other group of folks that can be used to support the sanctimonious, "holier-than-thou" attitudes that you can read on various threads.

OK - that's my rant over too!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 07:43 AM

Unfortunately not all folks are as "considerate" as some smokers

I agree there, Em. There are SOME smokers who are considerate. Unfortunately they are more than cancelled out by the millions over the last few hundred years who have killed off countless thousands of innocent people. Smugness may be annoying, but I don't think it has ever killed anyone. If I may turn your phrase around -

Unfortunately not all smokers are as considerate as some folks which I think is demonstrated by the smug, self-righteous tone of some of the people who have killed others and don't seem to care.

I know how considerate you are though so I hope you don't take offence.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 07:26 AM

It's not quite that simple Ernest! Not all pubs have private outdoor areas and many places do not allow you to take an alcoholic drink onto the street area so that it's not possible to both smoke and have a drink.

Before the ban I was in the smoking area of a pub during a festival but went outside to smoke as people were singing. Despite leaving my personal belongings on my seat and my drink on the table I was a little suprised to find that my seat had been taken when I returned a few minutes later and my handbag, coat etc simply tossed aside.

Unfortunately not all folks are as "considerate" as some smokers which I think is demonstrated by the smug, self-righteous tone of some of the people who have posted on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 05:30 AM

Building special shelters containing expensive hi-tech machinery just because a few people are too lazy to take a few steps outside?

Sounds a little ridiculous to me...

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 03:29 AM

Oh yeah... I can see that happening... NOT! No way will the smokers pay more for their beer, regardless of what the extra money is going towards. I bet it wouldn't be long before the beer sales dropped off because the smokers would find it cheaper to drink at home, in their own comfortable, smoky surroundings, thus negating the excercise.

If a smoker sees it as their right to smoke (fair dos, it is their decision), then they will not see an extension of that being their right to pay more for their beer. That'd be like making people who take sugar in their tea pay for the sugar bowl.

Landlords have known this ban was coming for months, if not years. They should have realised that as soon as it became law in Scotland and Ireland, it would come to England sooner or later. The landlord or manager should have applied to the brewery or pub owner for the funds and support to create 'smoking shelters' or have a room put aside for them. As in so many other areas, ignorance is not an excuse.

Those pubs not owned by a chain had the same amount of notice - they may not have the big names and money behind them, but if they're doing well enough to stay independent, then they must have some capital to fall back on. I suspect that those pubs mentioned above as 'being closed by the smoking ban' are those that were already in trouble, or on a knife edge between trouble and managing. We all know that sometimes it just takes one tiny thing to overbalance us, the skill is in recognising where that balance point is. I think that the knife edge pubs failed to see that balance point and are now blaming the latest restriction rather than looking at themselves objectively to find out what the underlying problem was.

And as for the comment by the first landlady quoted right at the top - the reason the bar in the Houses of Parliament still allows smoking is because it is not a public place. The only way to get into the HoP bar is to become an MP.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 06:03 PM

Because that would entail buying it at the non smokers rate, the object would be that we would pay more because we are using the extra structure. Do try & keep up, or perhaps get a mudcat name.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:54 PM

Put someone who's off the wagon on the trolley, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:52 PM

Ale could be delivered mechanically so there is no need for staff. Why not just take turns to walk across and bring the drinks back on a tray or a trolley?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: skipy
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

LTS, I was triping well, it was a cut & paste!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoking ban closing pubs, it's started!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:22 PM

I've had another two glasses of medication and decided that my ability to tripe is perfect thank you. Undt 'b' undt 'v' are next too each other mine lieber kangeroo...

:D