BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

It the metal is grey and the pots are fairly heavy, they almost certainly are what was called "aluminum" in the US from about the mid 1930s and on. Older than ca. 1945 there is the possibility that they could be any of a variety of loosely defined "pot metal" materials, and there is no specific "list of ingredients" for those.

By the time of the mid 1940s, aluminum/aluminium was a major component in much cookware that would meet the description given, with earlier materials often containing a fairly high percentage of zinc. Very old cookware of this kind sometimes contained a fair amount of lead, but it's unlikely that any this old would still have survived in useable condition.

Note that nearly all similar metals that have been used will melt at about 460F (238C) so don't try to use them in a "Pizza oven."

As to the weight being "like cast iron" I once paid $0.10 at a yard sale for what I thought was a cast iron lid that might fit my skillet - and the bottom, minus a handle, came with it. When I wire-brushed enough of the black off to identify what I had it turned out to be a Wagner Drip-top chicken fryer, solid cast aluminum. An aunt bought one ca. 1946, and my mother had always wanted one; but refused to consider paying the $48 (US - 1946) price then demanded. They're still about the same price, but it's not a week's wage now for most.

The "black" in the stains is carbon, and almost nothing you can use will touch it. If the stain still contains sufficient "grease," chemical cleaners can break up the grease to allow the carbon to be released from the surface.

If the stains/deposits have been there for a very long time, about the only practical way to remove them is with an abrasive attack, and a small wire brush in your Dremel or drill motor would be indicated.

Roughness resulting from abrasive removal, if that's needed, can be quickly smoothed/polished with a "rag" polishing wheel mounted on an arbor in your drill motor, using the appropriate abrasive stick for Al. Polishing wheels and abrasives should be easily found at the nearest hardware shop.

Normal "scouring powders" should not scratch the finish any more than what likely already exists for the "bare metal," should you be successful in actually cleaning down to what's there.

"Clean" alumin(i)um has good heat transfer, but is not a particularly good cooking surface. The residual grease left from using and normal washing will "cure" the surface fairly quickly in most cases, should you be forced to clean down to the metal; but keeping the pots "metal shiny" is not a good goal. If the stains aren't bad enough to reflect unfavorably on your mother's dishwashing practices, my suggestion would be that you give the pots a good sudsy wash, forget about the stains, and tell your friends "that's how my mom had them cured, and that's how I'm gonna use 'em." Work up a song-and-dance routine about the "charm of OLD" and praise the beauty of them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM

Since you are in the UK, I'm not sure if this is marketed there under the same name, but for general cleaning of pots Bon Ami is hard to beat. Surely there is an equivilent.

If the discoloration is deep into the metal, that's a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:24 AM

Alice is right

Hydrogen peroxide together with Cream of Tartar (it is a white powder bought in the cooking section).
That works much better than vinegar or baking soda

its amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM

Okey fine, but I'm STILL not going to apply it directly to my freshly-shaven armpit, thank you very much.

You said it's not baked-on gunk, but I do second the tartar recommendation. That's the best way I know of to clean pots and pans that were thought lost causes. I put a thick layer on, add a half inch or so of water, simmer 'til the water starts to go away, leave it to cool, and it'll come beautifully clean.

Dani (a chef who has seen MANY burnt pots, and burned a few herself)

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:37 PM

The thing about Alzheimer's being caused by aluminum was exploded long ago. From "Scientific American" via Snopes:

Two more researchers have responded to this question. Leonard Berg is a professor of neurology at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis; until recently, he directed the Alzheimer's Disease Research Center there. He replies:

"There is no proof, and the current consensus is that aluminum does not play a major role in the development of Alzheimer's disease. But because the causes of the disorder are not understood at this time, one cannot rule out the possibility that aluminum could play a minor role. In our Center, we do not recommend that people avoid aluminum cooking pans or aluminum-containing antiperspirants or antacids because there is little evidence that such lifestyle changes are helpful. Moreover, it is impossible to avoid ingesting a certain amount of aluminum, which is found naturally in food and water."

Zaven S. Khachaturian is the director of the Ronald and Nancy Reagan Research Institute. He has written a review article on the disease in July/August issue of The Sciences. He adds:

"This issue has been the subject of many studies, workshops and reports since the early 1970s. Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut answer either to implicate or to absolve the role of aluminum in causing Alzheimer's disease. At present it is not clear whether the aluminum found in the brain of an Alzheimer's victim got there because there is disease already in progress or if the aluminum starts the process.

"In the mind of many scientists, if aluminum plays a role it is most probably a secondary one. The reasoning for this position is based on the fact that aluminum is one of the most abundant and pervasive elements. It is found everywhere--it is in the water we drink, it is in the dust we breathe, it is in many of he substances we use every day such as coke in glass bottles, food preservatives, many cosmetics and food dyes. Even if we stop using pots and pans or underarm deodorants, it will be virtually impossible to avoid aluminum. Given this type of exposure of the general population, if aluminum is playing a major role then one would expect the numbers of people affected by Alzheimer's to be much higher than they are found in epidemiological studies."

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:23 PM

Actually, one should try not to remove any blacklening on the outside of the base of the pots, it allegedly helps heat transfer into the pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:22 PM

I use pickling vinegar, 10%, about 1 cup and a cup of water. I boil it a couple of times then I pour it out and rinse the pot thoroughly. I boil a little plain water and toss it also. This stainless steel kettle is wonderful.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:14 PM

Great Stilly - if you like the taste of boiled vinegar for the next 5 cups of tea.... lemon juice is much tastier.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:13 PM

My mother's old trick: to clean both silver and aluminium, put *washing* soda in warm water, add the aluminium and the silver and leave overnight; leave the windows of the room open and the doors closed, as there may be fumes.

In the morning, rush in and open the back door, and dump out the water and rinse off the pots and silver - you should have sparkling silver and sparkling pots.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM

For a burnt pan you should be boiling baking soda, not boiling vinegar.

Boiling vinegar works for tea kettles to take out the limestone buildup. I do it every couple of months in my electric kettle. Looks as clean as new each time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

I don't think leaching the aluminium did my mother much harm - died at nearly 97 and doing her own tax returns until she was 95!

So far boiling vinegar has got me nowhere except smelly.

Rhubarb it'll have to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Alice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM

Unless the pots are cast iron, it may be best to not use them any more for cooking.
See leaching of metal from cooking pots:

http://www.life.ca/nl/81/pots.html

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Alice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:40 PM

Hydrogen peroxide together with Cream of Tartar (it is a white powder bought in the cooking section).
That works much better than vinegar or baking soda.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: gnu
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM

Excellent and efficient solution (pun definitely intended) Bee! Tasty, too!

Giok... yeah, right.. you nicked it. You closet kitchen bitch, you.

Oh, BTW... before I get nicked for the PI "kitchen bitch" thing. I don't care so sod off.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bee
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM

Cook a batch of rhubarb in it. Will be sparkling when done.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM

My mother used to put water to boil in the burned pan that needed cleaning and add at least a couple of tablespoons of baking soda, maybe more. Put in enough water so the pan can simmer or lightly boil for 20-30 minutes. You'll see a lot of the black floating off.

Elbow grease is also a useful compound.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM

I still have some of those very heavy cast aluminum sauce pans, but I use them in the greenhouse, or cleaning in the garage, etc.
Some years ago, there were stories about aluminum cookware and Alzheimer's (false? don't remember), and, perhaps the determiner, my wife wanted new stuff in the kitchen. A couple of Le Creusets retained, but "grey metal" doesn't hold for them.
Any identifiers on the bottom?

Cast iron is heavier still, and mostly is used in frypans (kept seasoned), Dutch ovens, corn bread pans and the like. I have a couple of cast iron kettles and a sauce pan, etc., but they are over 150 years old and collect dust on shelves. Of course a magnet works to identify iron, copper, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM

Salt is a good scrubbing/grinding abrasive as well. Grind off the blackened bits, save some time, make 'em shine.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:28 PM

Aluminium - or at least totally non-magnetic.

I seem to have lots of vinegar, so once I have finished my dinner I'll boil some and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:25 PM

They are definitely not stove enamelled: another set of treasures from her kitchen was a lot of white enamelled things (best a breadbin) with blue rims, but alas teh 5 gallon flour bin was found in the garage after use for storing garden chemicals and corroded ebyond recapture.

Now where did I put that magnet?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:24 PM

Yes, sounds like old heavy, cast aluminum. Use a grinder and re-season as for cast iron.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: gnomad
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

How about a quick dab with a magnet to give a clue as to composition?

If you have got cast iron but the bottoms are blackened with lighter shades up the inside of the pans there is a fair chance they are stove enameled. Staining of this kind is pretty much impossible to remove, and most chemical methods will take the gloss off the enamel, making sticking/burning more likely in future use.

The good news is that such a stain, though unattractive, has no significant effect on the performance of the pans, and won't taint your food. Le Creuset advise use a low heat, and never to dump the hot pan into cold water. They also offer a stain remover, I have not tried it, but have heard only lukewarm reports of its performance. Under no circumstances take metal utensils or scourers to an enameled pan, and scouring powder it also a no-no.

Some cast aluminium pans are pretty hefty, you might try taking steel wool to the underside, if it comes up shiny under the burning this might be what you have, and you could proceed to the insides in relative confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM

I don't know if it works with all materials but in recent years I've come across a trick that "works a treat" (Without the Mudcat that is not a phrase I would ever have used. *g*).

I dump some dishwashing liquid in the bottom and fill it with water (I've used both hot and cold water with equal efficacy) to the brim of the traumatized stuff and set it back out of the way. A day or so later I dump it out and lo!

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

Hmmm, grey metal would suggest an aluminum alloy. Lot's of older ones were very thick. So don't use oven cleaner just in case. Try a magnet test to see if they are iron. But an old iron pot is usually black.

Try boiling some vinegar in them, or cooking an acid fruit such as rhubarb.

Also you can clean them with wet or dry rubbing down paper from an auto parts store. Try 400 grade first and use it wet with detergent. Then, when you have got them clean, you can shine them up with 600 grade or finer. I have to do this regularly at home with both stainless steel and aluminum pots, 'cos some lazy bugger (often me) lets them burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

"Sprinkle some baking soda on the burned spots and let sit a couple of minutes. Pour vinegar on top and watch the magic happen. Those bubble will start lifting off the gunk. You may still need to use a little elbow grease, but not much and it's fun to watch!"

Can't vouch for the efficacy, I nicked it from elsewhere, but the chemistry sounds right.
G

Subject: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a "new man", I'm not "in touch with my feminine side" and I don't like cooking or cleaning. But it's coming up to 5 year ssince Jacqui died, and now my mother has just died and I have all her old saucepans. Long pre-dating non-stick (she was born in 1911).

Mostly they are grey metal. The weight would say "iron" to me, but the absence of actual corrosion says not. They are not I think light enough to be aluminium.

THey have good heavy bases to spread the heat (most of them) and I'd like to clean them up and use them. But the insides of teh bottoms are pretty much blackened. It looks more like a stain than a deposit.

So far Fairy Power Spray, Cillit Bang, and teh dishwasher hvae had little effect. I don't want to use a true scouring powder as it leaves a roughness which will make keeping them clean a lot harder.

Suggestions (preferably ones taht do not involve physical effort)?