sick of DADGAD

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Easy Rider
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 09:31 AM

"Celtic" guitar music is quite the rage right now, but I have discovered that it is NOT guitar music at all, but it was originally written for and played on the Celtic harp! So, we are playing music that was never intended for the guitar, and on an out of tune guitar at that! That's not really so bad. We play Appalachian fiddle tunes on the guitar too.

Out of curiosity, I bought a "Celtic" guitar CD, "Ramble to Cashel". the music was pretty, but halfway through the CD it got boring. I'm gonna get killed for saying this, but It all sounds pretty much the same to me. I'd like to hear it on the Celtic harp it was originally written for. What is a Celtic harp anyway?

Open tunings are fun and easy to play in. I'm discovering open D (DADF#AD), for the first time, because of my finger injury (see OUCH! thread).

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: guitaristin40sembraceddadgadplaysbanishmisfortune
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 09:19 AM

I don't really play Ban Mis much...but DADGAD is great for its ease of fitting in a nice flowing bass part to a fingerpicking arrangement. I agree its worthwhile working out different tunes, since some are overdone and most overlooked...its hard work though and who likes that?

The drawback to the sound that I find after awhile, is that its just too damn pretty. I like a little dissonance somewhere since I am not sitting on a cloud strumming a harp...However if you're like me and never practice, dissonance is not hard to come by...and you can get some interesting effects by trying to play in a key other than D without capoing--you get chords that sound sort of right but kind of weird and unsettling due to odd inversions I guess.

Did Davey Graham really invent it? I didn't know that.

Bill C.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 06:35 AM

Actually - I never use DADGAD or any other open tunings in performance. I play with them at home, for fun. DADGAD never turned me on.

As for Celtic elitism, there seems to be some there, among the less learned of the music ranks. I blow it off. I play music I love. Period. If some of it is Celtic, so be it. Some of it certainly is not. And some would turn their nose at some of my Irish or Scottish arrangements, as not being Celtic enough. Fock 'em. They aren't the ones I'm playing to!

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 06:19 AM

DADGAD's a great tuning.

As for lemmings in a can? What'll they think of next? I've enjoyed the sardines and anchovies - even the odd tuna and salmon, but lemmings? I hope they're boneless.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From:
Date: 23 Nov 99 - 04:18 AM

McGrath: Try the site http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/dadgad It has a good discussion about theory behind accompanying Irish music as well as a very complete chord chart. I think he also has a web page about Bazoukis (If that is the way you make it plural!)

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 02:41 PM

Once again, check out it's inventor..Davey Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 02:37 PM

Only hassle with different tunings is if you're trying to follow someone else's chords, or they are trying to follow yours.

The particular relevance of tunings like DADGAD to Gaelic music is it fits well with tunes which miss out the notes that would define it as major or minor, which is a bit hard to do with chords when you're playing standard tuning. The same reason Irish Bouzouki tend to be tuned GDAD or ADAD, instead of GDAE like a mandolin.

Once again, anyone got a link to a sensible DADGAD site? If it's getting under threat from the fashion cops, it's time I got around to studying it.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From:
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 06:19 AM

I am not sick of DADGAD. I don't use the tuning myself; because I never learned it; but it gets a very rich sound out of the guitar--especially a large bodied one. What I am sick of is the identification of it with "Celtic" music. In fact I agree with several of the postings. That word is really misused.

By the way, except for vocal music, one hears very little about Welsh music. Many years ago my wife played with the Welsh National Opera and we got to listen to some Welsh choruses. It is great stuff. Is there any other kinds, harp, fiddle, guitar, etc?

Murray

PS I BSeed took exception to another thread about travel guitars being labeled "BS". I feel the same way about this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Auxiris
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 04:26 AM

Hello, all. . . might I make a suggestion? If you're tired of DADGAD and don't necessarily want to stick to EADGBE all the time, why not do a bit of research and look for other tunings? Mark Hanson's excellent book, "The Complete Book of Alternate Tunings" perhaps could supply a few ideas.

Also, if you're tired of hearing the "same ol' thing" all the time, why not take the time to learn tunes or songs that aren't getting lots of attention? For example, why play the same O'Carolan pieces (as beautiful as they are, I don't necessarily like to hear Fanny Power or Sidhe beg an Sidhe mor all the time) when there are so many OTHERS? "Mrs. Bermingham" or "Planxty Kelly" come to mind.

I fail to see that there's anything wrong with accompanying a voice with a musical instrument, be it a guitar, uilleann pipes or. . . . a bouzouki.

cheers. Auxiris

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 03:28 AM

I use DADGAD a lot and it is very good for many tunes and songs. I also use standard and other tunings as well. There is nothing instrinsically wrong with DADGAD (I fully agree with what Frankie said above and Pierre Bensusan plays many styles beautifully in this tuning). The problem is in the minds and attitudes of some people, both players and listeners.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM

I'm very new with DADGAD, Stan Rogers seemed to favor it and it did fine by him. My fingers are such trainwreck that I'm lucky to play at all. What I find with DADGAD is some very long spaces that I can't reach. I'll stick to "G" tuning on the banjo and standard with capos on the guitar.

This thing about celtic music is more troubling to me. I have sung British Isles folk music for 30 years. The songs come from all over the Isles and even parts of Franceland where they seem to have a different word for nearly everything. These song all come from the Celtic countries but apparently to some I'm not doing Celtic nusic because I'm singing and instramentalizing. Lts us don't forget that the voice was the original instrument and people who "Meerly Sing" are just as legit in the Celtic Music world as those Johnny Come Latelys who play greek instruments and tell the world they are doing Irish music.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Frankie
Date: 21 Nov 99 - 10:28 PM

PF,

It's the musician, not the way the pegs are twisted,IMHO. Check out Pierre Bensusan who has adopted Dsus as his standard tuning. He uses it to play many styles and will cause you to forget he's playing the detested DADGAD. He recently released a retrospective whose name escapes me but the titles look like a good sampling of his work.

Best Regards, Frankie

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:04 PM

Mostly Irish, except when it's Scottish, which it is half the time. When it isn't green coloured blue grass. Gaelic Music would be the accurate way of taking. The term Celtic I think comes from Bretons wanting to stress their national identity. And you can't blame them for that.

But in fact, while Breton music is wonderful stuff, it's much closer to French music than to Gaelic music, (or even to Welsh, where of course there is close affinity when it comes to language).

The thing about the Wild Rover of course is that it isn't even an Irish song in origin. It was collected in Norfolk, and that's the version that the Dubliners picked up. Any good song will end up being sung in Ireland, and then people assume it's an Irish song to start with, rather than to finish with. The same goes for other Irish favourites like "I live not where I love" and "Fiddlers Green". I might start a thread on that, asking for other Irish songs that aren't.

The other thing about The Wild Rover that peoiple always miss is that formally at least, it's a Temperance Song. I strongly suspect that originally it was a seriously meant Temperance Song too.

As for DADGAD - as I said, I've nevwer got into it. But on a bouzouki ADAD is about the most popular Irish tuning, so has anyone had any success with DADADA or ADADAD?

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Áine
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 09:42 PM

Count me in there with Den and McGrath! I'm too sick with a chest cold to say too much right now, but I'm with you guys. All's I'm saying is, here's the two fingered salute to elitists of any kind . . . whichever end of the DAGDAD debate you're on.

Le meas, Áine

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Den
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM

Celtic music you know I'm really beginning to detest that expression. When people talk about celtic music 9 times out of 10 they're talking about Irish music. When you go to a "celtic" club how much Welsh, Manx, Cornish or Brittany music do you hear. If you took all the Irish stuff out of your "celtic" set I don't think you'd be on stage for too long. So lets give credit or disdain where credit or disdain is deserved. I grew up with Irish music I've played it all my life, I love it. For me there is none better.

I get a little upset too with the elitests. I get pissed off with the guys who say, "oh I don't play the wild rover thats crap." Well maybe for you it is. I don't do it that much anymore myself but if someone were to sincerely request it I'd do it for them but then I never considered myself to be an educator or showman I consider myself to be an entertainer and I feel that when people make the effort to come and see you play then you should do your best to send them away happy on some level. When I first came to Canada I put food on my table by doing a lot of those songs and you know people liked to hear them. A lot of the guys that I've met who complain about the Wild Rover etc. seem to have short memories in that it was'nt too long ago that they were playing them themslves.I can't help it that Irish music seems to be the flavour of the month, infact for me thats just fine. The chieftains 20 years ago didn't have Matt Molloy and for my money they are a much better group now with his inclusion. So anyway if you don't like Irish music don't play it, don't listen to it but don't complain about those who do especially if they do it well. Den

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 08:11 PM

Sure, you can have too much of a good thing, so that you need to try something else to get your taste back in tune so to speak.

But that doesn't mean that the good thing is any the worse because you've pigged out on it. The fault isn't inthe music, it's in the listener.

This is different from the situation which often happens in folk music where you'll come across a new style or artist and it excites you because you recognise there's something about it you haven't found before.

And then you go on and find that it's a diluted or diminished form of something you can find pure and unspoiled elsewhere.

There's junk music, like junk food. And if you've never had real minestrone, the tinned variety might turn you towards trying it out. (Or equally it might put you off.) But the Chieftains were never junk musicians (even when they've made the occasional junky recording to raise a bob or two).

As for DADGAD, if I can be sure that the rush and the fashion is over, I might have another go. Someone give us a sensible minimal DADGADF site, would you.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Allan C.
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM

Windham Hill, for those who asked, is a recording label here in the U.S. which, (and I disagree with those who malign it,) features a variety of excellent artists. Most of them play little else besides their own compositions or at least mix in a goodly amount of them. Many of the artists have a "folky" sound to their music (whatever image that may conjure for you is probably fitting). Some of their recording artists include: Taj Mahal, Michael Hedges, Janis Ian, and George Winston. You can see what they have here.

As for DADGAD, I feel it is meeting the fate of so many other things which have met with the public attentions. It reminds me a bit of my mother's cooking. It was her habit to discover something "new", such as, "Hamburger Helper", and then use it in every way imaginable (and in some ways I would rather she had not imagined). She produced "Helper" meals until not only was the novelty worn off, but Dad and my brother and I were trying to find excuses to either eat out or at least visit some good friends close to meal time. Then, (at last!) Mom would make a new discovery - "Rice-A-Roni" or some such thing. Then the syndrome would begin all over again.

Many of us (perhaps, most) tend to "like" something until such time as it seems as if it is not only no longer novel, but has become downright common. Then, in order to excuse ourselves from continuing with it, we do a complete about-face and decide to despise it.

Frankly, (having lived through the "Campbell's Minestrone Soup" period, I totally understand.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: AMos
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 06:02 PM

Double D is good for lots of stuff besides "Celtic" chunes. For example, I used to show people how I could play the banjo on my guitar in it. But that was before I grew up.

You can also use it to imitate the Beatles imitating Ravi Shankar imitating traditional cittarh music. I spelled that after "catarrh" because I do not remember at the moment how it should be spelt. And its good for certain kinds of artsy fartsy stuff. Besides it gives you two instruments for the price of one.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:34 PM

Okay, where's BonnieNeoBanjoPhyte so I can try this again?

Its the glasses that bother me.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:21 PM

My only problem with DADGAD is that, at least to some Celtoid types, it's more a religion than it is a tuning.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: wildlone
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:35 PM

If it is the same Wyndham Hill, its just on the outskirts of Yeovil.An area of unspoilt country side that the powers that be wanted to build a superstore on plus a road.

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Jonathan
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:24 PM

Wyndham Hill of the 90s.....I love that! Actually, it is particularly galling when you have devoted 20 years to the music to see it become so devalued. However, I can comfort myself with the thought that it's Irish music predominantly which has suffered this fate. I have lately discovered a very versatile guitar tuning which has great potential.....eadgbe. J

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:28 AM

Windham Hill? What or who is that when it's at home?

Never got my fingers round DADGAD - Standard tuning works fine for playing Irish sessions for me. If I try funny tunings I get completely thrown when the key keeps on cahnging. But then I think the guitar's place is that of a kind of bodrhan with chords, and that the tunes ought to come out of the fiddles or the mandolin or the pipes.

But I object to the idea that fashion should count in folk music - "When I saw the Chieftans 20 years ago, it meant something." The whole notion that the passing of time is an element in determining whether something is good, or true, seems absurd to me.

And what's this with the term "Celtic music"? - yes they play a lot of good music in Galicia and Brittany, and Wales. But it's got no more to do with the music of Ireland and Scotland than the music of England or Central France or Norway (less in fact, when it comes to Norway.)

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: bbelle
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 09:50 AM

Well, 'spaw, I took your advice and read the s/sw thread and would have to agree with Mr. Fielding. Since rejoining the music world, the one big thing I've noticed is that if one doesn't sing celtic music, one tends to draw looks that say "you are just not "in." I've not minced words about my dislike of celtic music, however, I have changed my mind a bit. Listening to Big Mick at the getaway caused me to think that it's not all bad. As a matter of fact, I actually would like to learn a few tunes, especially since Big Mick and Barry Finn both say my voice is suited to it, which is a supreme compliment. I have noticed, though, that the term "elitist" is most often used in conjunction with celtic sessions, which I think is shameful. Musicians should sing/play what is good for them, be it celtic, appalachian mountain music, traditional contemporary folk, etc., and not be forced to play a type of music that doesn't "fit" them, without getting the "look." I sing/play/intepret music gotten from several folk genre and have found that, when I feel coerced to play something "foreign" (for lack of a better word), it has the tendency to sound "plastic." Not always, but enough times that I know the warning signs! And I am not a s/sw because every song I've ever written sounds just like the last song I sang/heard ... moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:07 PM

Yeah Spud Digits...Go see Rick's post on the "Singer/Songwriter" Thread.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:01 PM

Hi potato (does that have an "e" on it?) Couldn't agree with you more!

Subject: sick of DADGAD
From: potato fingers
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 08:02 PM

Each time I hear another guitarist( usually in his forties) has embraced DADGAD and can play Banish Misfortune, I gat the shivers. Sad to say, Celtic music, while beautiful and satisfying, has become the Windham Hill of the late nineties. When I saw the Chieftans 20 years ago, it meant something. Now I feel like I'm "...packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes.."