BS: Six Day War 50 Years On

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 09:42 AM

Perhaps you should address the reason why Israel has so many "avowed enemies" Al

See: Anti-Semitism in the Arab world

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 08:56 AM

"as they are surrounded by avowed enemies "
Perhaps you should address the reason why Israel has so many "avowed enemies" Al
****** if I'd like that particular regime as a next-door neighbour
Rather have the Royle family living next door
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:22 AM

remember we had to stop our arms traders from smuggling a supergun to Sadam to obliterate israel.

i think you have to cut israel some slack, as they are surrounded by avowed enemies - you can't expect democracy to function in the same way that it does on the isle of wight.

and really you guys with statistics...!
i mean , theres statistics and bollocks - and it seems to me they're pretty much interchangeable.

have you costed all those tanks the soviets bought Egypt to invade israel? i think we may take it that israel's many enemies will be not without their funders.

its a way the soviets can take a pop and play cats paw with the USA like they did very successfully in Vietnam. Don't fall for the ragged peasants army routine. THe Vietnamese paid for our appalling naivety with many executions and murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 07:03 AM

Neither Keith nor Teribus appear remotely capable of addressing what I've posted. When the wind blows the wrong way they shut their eyes to the issue, try to switch to what other countries are doing and try to trap us into making an antisemitic statement. What I've said about the discrimination against Arabs in Israel is all true and very easily confirmed. For the record, and for the umpteenth time, I know what bad things happen in countries next door to Israel. At least Israel doesn't publicly behead 300 people a year, unlike the country with whom we do massive arm deals so that they can repress their neighbours and whose oil we love. We do know all that. But address the issue. Bobad's claim about equality for Arabs was simply false. Tough if you don't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

"It is always Israel you are discussing,"
Because the ethnic cleansing, apartheid building, murderous incursions, land-grabbing, ten year blockade...... is a permanently current issue which is taking place nowhere else on the planet.
Nobody conjured these arguments out of thin air - they are rections to what we see on our televisions and read about in our newspapers
Those of us who have been in support of the existence of Israel (from the very beginning) find your associating those crimes with the Jewish People as a whole deeply offensive.
I find your pointing to what happens elsewhere as an excuse for these horrific crimes deeply imbecilic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:33 AM

Jim,
it doesn't matter what the neighbors do it is Israel we are discussing

It is always Israel you are discussing, and always ignoring the far worse excesses of all its neighbours.
WHY?
Why doesn't it matter that Israel is the least guilty state in the region?

Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

It is the only Jewish state.
Is that the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 03:32 AM

By the bye Shaw does holding elections on a regular basis count towards any sort of indication that a country is democratic? If so (And I believe that it is so) we know that Israel has held elections in:
1949; 1951; 1955; 1959; 1961; 1965; 1969; 1973; 1977; 1981; 1984; 1988; 1992; 1996; 1999; 2003; 2006; 2009; 2013; 2015 - lowest voter turnout was 63.5% highest voter turnout was 86.9% - Guess what Shaw during those elections different political parties won and took office all quite peacefully (Nobody flying off the roofs of seven storey buildings)

Now how does that compare to your "Palestinian" pals track record? Doesn't go back as far does it Shaw because they were under Jordanian and Egyptian occupation between 1948 and 1967. Then they seem to have had a bit of a holiday between 1967 and 1994 - they didn't need elections during that period did they because they were being "led" by Tosser Arafat who was in the process of milking his "poor Palestinians" for every cent he could lay his hands on (Just like his uncle had done before him). By the 1990s Arafat had lost his most constant backers so the "two-state" myth was pursued in order to wrest more cash out of the international community (The pro-Palestinian bunch on this forum have yet to so me a Hamas, Hezbollah or Fatah map showing the borders of this sought after and desired Two-State solution - mind you those involved haven't even shown it to the UN). So onto these elections, they had one to kick-off the proceedings in 1994, then another in 1996. After that there was a bit of a hiatus until 2006 and then they just seemed to have abandoned the exercise.

So Shaw name one country in the region that even remotely measures up to Israel by any metric used to describe a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Jim Carroll - 13 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

You've had it Teribus - the Brits sold what was specified to Syrian

Where in that article does it say that Jom?

"I don't see how a country that discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, or which constantly gets into conflicts with its neighbours, can call itself a democracy." - Shaw

Ehmmmm CONSTANTLY Shaw??

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Egypt. (I make that 1973 - 44 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Jordan. (I make that 1967 - 50 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Syria. (I make that 1973 - 44 years ago)

Tell us all when Israel was last involved in an armed conflict with it's neighbour Lebanon. (I make that 2006 - 11 years ago)

CONSTANTLY - Definition:

ADVERB
continuously over a period of time; always:
"the world is constantly changing" · "he was constantly on her mind"

synonyms: always · all the time · the entire time · continually · continuously · persistently · repeatedly · regularly · round the clock · without a break · night and day · day and night · {morning, noon, and night} · endlessly · non-stop · incessantly · unceasingly · ceaselessly · perpetually · eternally · perennially · forever · interminably · unremittingly · relentlessly · unrelentingly · aye · 24/7 · sempiternally

antonyms: occasionally · sometimes (These seem a damned sight more apt to me Shaw)

As for the Palestinians:

Tell us when Israel was last involved in armed conflict in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. (I make that 2005, the end of the Second Intifada)

Tell us when Israel was last involved in armed conflict in the Gaza Strip. (I make that in 2014 - 3 years ago and that was as a direct result of rocket attacks made on Israel by Hamas terrorists from inside Gaza - Are you trying to tell us all that Israel is not permitted to defend it's citizens from attack?)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:46 PM

I should like to see the STATISTICAL evidence that Jews are by far the most common victims of hate crimes. I need to know how a hate crime is defined and how many actual convictions there have been for hate crimes against Jews compared with other ethnic groups, or non-ethnic groups for that matter. Bear in mind that an accusation is not an indication of a crime. Only convictions by courts count. Claims are easy to make. Providing the evidence could be a tad harder. Put up or shut up, bobad.

Al, in a severely polarised Middle East it DOES matter where the Israelis get their guns from. In fact, it's at the hub of the whole problem of the Middle East. Israel gets three billion dollars per annum of unconditional military aid from the United States. That is neither an insignificant factor, bearing in mind that the population of Israel is about that of Scotland and Wales, neither is it politically insignificant bearing in mind that the US has a very long history of interference in the region, never on the side of Israel's adversaries. Finally, the treatment of Arabs in Israel is not more detestable than in the surrounding countries. Nobody here says that it is. I think Saudi Arabia is an utterly detestable regime and I think we should do no business with them whatsover on principle, oil or no bloody oil. But Israel sets itself up as an enlightened western-style democracy. A close inspection of the way Israel treats its minority gives the lie to that big time. I don't see how a country that discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, or which constantly gets into conflicts with its neighbours, can call itself a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

You've had it Teribus - the Brits sold what was specified to Syrian
If you wish to contradict documented evidence do so with documented evidence of youtr own
You have evidence of what you claim to be "made up shit"
Now, provide evidence that your claims are not "made up shit - otherwise they are "made up shit"
Ceckmate - game, set and match,,,,, or, as Keith would say "you lose"
Three "Carrolls" there
Sad, pathetic little man
Who knows, maybe one of Bin Laden's businesses provided the transport
What a team eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:12 PM

The answer to that Al is the same answer to why Jews are, by far, the leading target of hate crimes in the US, Canada and the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:14 PM

where the israelis get their guns from is irrelevant.
we deal in arms. so other people.
no doubt we flog guns to the other side as well. arms dealers do that sort of thing.

the question remains - what makes the israeli treatment of arab citizens so much more heinous than the surrounding countries

countries where the leaders flaunt their wealth on the streets and race courses of Europe and America - whilst their citizens are poor, oppressed and uneducated.

i don't get my facebook page inundated every day with complaints about these countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:25 PM

Carroll has put up the sum total of his "evidence" that "the British" sold arms to Syria.

The first paragraph of the article specifically states that it does not provide information on what has actually been sold only what the licences issued are worth.
If anyone would care to open that link and look at the Guianard article dated 22nd February 2011 you will see a graphic that shows The UK's "controlled" exports to North Africa and the Middle-East. By each country there is a "Blue" circle with a figure that shows the total value of controlled licences issued for that country to September 2010. There is also a "Red" circle and a figure that shows the total value of controlled licences of an explicitly military nature issued for that country to September 2010.

For Syria:
Blue = Export Licences issued worth £2.7 million - that is not the same as stating that goods worth £2.7 million of trade were exported, only that licences were issued.
Red = Export licences for explicit military exports worth £30,000 were issued – that is not the same thing as stating that anything was exported, only that a licence was issued.

The reason the figures stop at September 2010 was that was when all export licences for any goods that might be bound for Syria were revoked by the British Government.

Carroll then came out with the unfounded accusation that British weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012. As can be seen from Carroll's own link there were no export licences of a military nature covering the export of "weapons" to Syria.

This gives Carroll a problem

1: No evidence of any order placed for ammunition from the UK by Syria.

2: No evidence of any shipment of ammunition from the UK to Syria

So Carroll's contention that British weapons were killing Syrian civilians in Homs in March 2012 is Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" and totally unproven - he's good at baseless accusations and as with the treatment of Israeli Arabs he deliberately ignores the fact that Russian weapons are responsible for the majority of the killing in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

"Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?"
Yau are doing it again Keith - it doesn't matter what the neighbors do it is Israel we are discussing and they are the ones with the weaponry to blow this planet to pieces

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:38 PM

Syria 2,676,460 30,000        1 Small arms ammunition
UK ARMS SALES TO THE MIDDLE EAST
More made-up-shit eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:32 PM

"And please take note folks Jim Carroll has not been able to provide any evidence of:

1: There ever having been An order for ammunition from anyone inside Syria"
You've had the newspaper report and reference to its existence several times - you rejected it bcause it didn't suit your "Rule Britaniaism"
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever sold to Syria"
But you said it was for sporting purposes and the wrong size - on Homs Horror
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever delivered to Syria"
No reason it should not have been - you even suggested that it was sent too early to be of use to the Homs snipers - all on Homs Horror
"That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever used to kill anyone in Syria"
Doesn't matter - Britain shouldn't be selling anything to monsters like Assad.
If I made it up where did the published reports come from?

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Christians and Palestinians are treated far worse in surrounding Arab states than Arabs are in Israel.
Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:43 PM

"All this is checkable and has been put up on numerous occasions"

All that has been put up that can be conclusively shown was that an export licence was applied for by a private individual, that that licence was issued in 2009 and then it was revoked in Autumn 2010.

And please take note folks Jim Carroll has not been able to provide any evidence of:

1: There ever having been An order for ammunition from anyone inside Syria

2: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever sold to Syria

3: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever delivered to Syria

4: That any ammunition related to this export licence was ever used to kill anyone in Syria

So taking all of that into account if we are looking for an example of "made-up-shit" remember that the allegation initially tabled by Carroll in the 2012 Homs thread was that British weapons were killing civilians in Homs - Arrant nonsense, totally unfounded and untrue - the fact that he keeps regurgitating this fantasy of his makes him a barefaced liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 12:35 PM

"You ignored the fact that Arab life expectancy is actually lower in all the surrounding states."
And you continually choose to ignore the fat that these states are poor and Israel is rich
Anybody within any state has a right to expect to be treated equally to anybody else and not be discriminated against
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
NOT THE CASE IN ISRAEL
Has never been the case in Israel
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/forget-israels-new-legislation-palestinians-have-been-second-class-citizens-for-decades-rights-group-9880036.html
NOT EVEN THE CASE OUTSIDE ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy.
You criticised the low life expectancy of Arabs in Israel.
You ignored the fact that Arab life expectancy is actually lower in all the surrounding states.

Why do you always and only criticise Israel while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:21 AM

Here's how you justify mistreatment and discrimination in precisely the same way as Keith does. From Jim's link:

Pat Buchanan:,"America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known."

Art Robinson: "The negroes on a well-ordered estate, under kind masters, were probably a happier class of people than the laborers upon any estate in Europe."

David Horowitz: "If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves."

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson: "Thank God for slavery, because if not, the blacks who are here would have been stuck in Africa."

So, Keith, even though those Arabs in Israel don't do anywhere near as well as the Jews they should be damn grateful and stop moaning!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:21 AM

YOU'RE IN GREAT COMPANY HERE KEITH
Four "Joms" and one "Carroll" that time Teribus - you really are getting desperate for argument
All this is checkable and has been put up on numerous occasions
Tell you what - why not just go away and learn to talk to people in a way befitting of a decent discussion forum - learning to spell names might be a good start
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

"Israel is a wealthy country with international financial backing"

Ehmmmm Jom, to-date the leaders of the "Palestinians" have received more international aid than was given the whole of Europe in Marshall Aid to rebuild at the end of the Second World War. What have those "Palestinian Leaders" done with it? Enriched themselves and let their people suffer in deliberately maintained poverty and despair - because that is what keeps all that international aid flowing in. The people will never see more than a few pennies of it, the "Palestinian leadership" makes damned sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM

"Jim Carroll - 13 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

Been there, done that Teribus

In your dreams Jom - In your dreams.

1: "you made a six-attempt shambles of trying to justify this sale,"

A couple of problems with that little invention of yours Carroll:

a) I have never made any attempt to justify anything connected with your fairy tale
b) Apart from the record that an export licence was issued there has never, ever been one shred of evidence that there was any sale (Feel free Jom to come up with evidence that ammunition was sold and delivered using the said licence - you couldn't do so in 2012 and I doubt very much if you can or will now - you stated that it had so it is rather up to you to prove it - you won't)

2: "inventing (without evidence), six contradicting reasons wy they ammunioion was never ordered,)

There has never been any evidence that Syria ordered any ammunition. If you have any please produce it.

3: "then was ordered but never licenced,"

As stated above no evidence to support that Syria placed any order for ammunition.

4: "then was licenced bu t the licence was withdrawn,"

That is exactly what occurred and I have never said, or claimed anything different from that. Licence issued in 2009 and revoked in 2010.

5: then was too small an order to have made a diffence to the Homs massacre

£30,000 would equate to around 100,000 rounds of ammunition. The Syrian Army, a conscripted force, numbered around 220,000 men - eh Jom that amounts to less than half a bullet per man - using your unparalleled military experience and knowledge, you tell me if that would be adequate.

6: "then was sent far too early to have had any effect"

Let me see now Jom, hypothetically an army of 220,000 get sent 100,000 bullets in 2009, or at least before Autumn 2010, then start massacring civilians in the Spring of 2012 - what did they use in training between autumn 2010 and Spring 2012? Wait!!! Don't tell me!!! 100,000 bullets that they had bought elsewhere in 2007 - Ya f**kin' idiot.

7: then was not compatible to be used by Assad's snipers"

Well yes Jom a 7.62x51mm round would not fit into the chamber of Assad's snipers weapons, which by the way DID fire 7.62mm ammunition. Which Jom if you were using logic and common sense would indicate what ammunition Assad's snipers would need. But as you are incapable of rational or logical thought that little detail would fly over your head at about 40,000 feet and you'd come out with the shit that follows.

8: "and last but not least - was the wrong size (even though the size was never specified in the reports of the order)"

What reports of the order? There was never an order, there was an application for an export licence covering the export of small arms ammunition to Syria nothing more. The ONLY calibre that would have been of any use was 7.62mm unfortunately NATO use 7.62x51mm rounds the Syrian armed forces and police use 7.62x39mm rounds - which is probably why you cannot and will not be able to come up with any records that will provide any evidence of any sale ever having taken place.

"I have no intention of re-opening this fiasco with you"

You already have you stupid prat - you were trounced in discussions on this five years ago and at various times in the interim when you have chosen to resurface the discussion - you are being trounced on it yet again, only you are too damn thick to realise it.

Mudcatters I respect I DO address civilly and with total respect - the likes of yourself, Shaw, the Gnome and Raggy I have nothing but contempt for and treat like for like. You in particular I regard as being the most intolerant, biased, bigoted individual on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:08 AM

no one is using anything as an argument.

i wouldn't want anyone ill treated and if even a tory git like David Mellor is outraged on seeing the treatment of arabs by israeli security forces - i think we may take it that the arabs have serious cause for complaint.

however - compare and contrast the outpouring of bitching about israel compared to the foul treatment of arab citizens in arab nations.

and frankly Jim - it rings very false .
Once in my life I've walked down the street shouting HO! HO! HO CHI MINH! WE WILL FIGHT AND WE WILL WIN!

REmember!
i'm never going into that mode for a gang of murdering bastards like hamas or ho, and you shouldn't either, Jim.
Won't get fooled again! (as the folksong written by the Who goes)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 05:02 AM

You completely missed the point about population growth not going hand-in-hand with prosperity. You referred to the Arab population of Israel growing and thriving. You completely failed to make the point that, in the face of being presented with FACTUAL INFORMATION about how discrimination makes the lives of the Arabs in general much worse than those of Jews in so many facets, that Arabs in Israel are "thriving." All you can offer in support is the nonsensical argument that they don't actually leave their homes, their families and their native homeland in droves. Here's one for you, to show you how you continually brand yourself a racist; read it alongside your "one cheer" comment, as it's precisely the same argument (and the statements about land and housing are true):

"Housing for blacks in South Africa was worse both before and after apartheid than during apartheid, and during that regime they were actually allocated more land. Therefore apartheid was good for black South Africans. One cheer for apartheid."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 04:52 AM

"but inside it increased more."
So?
Does that mean that all Arabs should abandon their religion and become Jews (they are already Semites)?
Israel is a wealthy country with international financial backing, the Third World is not - nothing to do with culture, just International economic and political expediency
Stuffing that weealth up the noses of Muslim Israelis in order to make them second rate citizens is a disgusting form of acculturation and racism - which is what you are promoting b using it as an argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:27 AM

Steve,
It doesn't matter who you think persecuted the people of Gaza more. That was not the issue.

It was the issue I was referring to.
Why do you always and only criticise the Jewish State while ignoring the far worse excesses of all its neighbours.

Jim,
"When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside."
There is no reason that their life would not have been increased anyway

Life expectancy for Arabs increased both inside and outside of the new borders, but inside it increased more.

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Which Arabs were the lucky ones?

Israel has been good for them, improving their health and life expectancy.
One cheer for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

Been there, done that Teribus - you made a six-attempt shambles of trying to justify this sale, inventing (without evidence), six contradicting reasons wy they ammunioion was never ordered, then was ordered but never licenced, then was licenced bu t the licence was withdrawn, then was too small an order to have made a diffence to the Homs massacre, then was sent far too early to have had any effect, then was not compatible to be used by Assad's snipers, and last but not least - was the wrong size (even though the size was never specified in the reports of the order)
None of this came with linked back-up; just your belligerently strutting talked down declarations as here "Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong"   
It was a clumsily executed attempt to justify the sale of equipment to a mass-murderer, totally lacking in both evidence and imagination.
I have no intention of re-opening this fiasco with you - I raised it as a pathetically spectacular example of your making things up.
I strongly suggest you learn to address your fellow Mudcatters respectfully and learn to spell their names if you want to be taken seriously and not as a blustering schoolyard bully.
Your arrogance only serves to underline your ignorance - they go together "Like a horse and carriage" as the song says.
(Only one "Jom" there - is that a sign you are making an effort (a rhetorical question))
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:57 AM

Third time lucky - would be grateful if some kindly elf could delete the first two attempts.

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons.

3: A NATO 7.62 x 51mm round will not fit into an AK-47 which fires 7.62 x 39mm ammunition because the NATO round is 12mm TOO LONG for the chamber of an AK-47 - Pretty self explanatory Jom but if you are too bone thick to grasp the concept try pouring a quart into a pint pot, perhaps then you might just get the idea.

4: WHAT ORDER??? Of course I deny that there ever was an order. If you state that there was an order placed by the Syrian Government presented to the British Government then please provide some evidence of it.

5: What WAS applied for by a private individual (Note that Jom a private individual NOT the British Government) was an export licence - NO ORDER. This private individual sought to sell £30,000 worth of ammunition to Syria in 2009. The Export Licence was issued - there is no evidence at all that any ammunition was ever shipped. ALL export licences relating to goods going to Syria from the UK were revoked in the Autumn of 2010. Your contention was that:

a) The British Government had sold weapons to Assad in Syria
b) That those weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012.

Total fabrication on your part driven by your bias and bigotry.

6: The size thing - ever embraced the concept of rational thought Jom? UK has/had more 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 than it knew what to do with. A hang-over from when our standard infantry weapon the L1A1 SLR fired 7.62x51mm ammunition so that was what we had most of that we now no longer needed in such quantity - fair to logically and rationally think that it would be the surplus that would be sold off, as opposed to the stuff our soldiers actually needed over in Afghanistan (5.56x45mm as used in the SA80 A2 L85 Assault Rifle)

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Apologies "Submit" pressed inadvertently:

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons.

3: A NATO 7.62 x 51mm round will not fit into an AK-47 which fires 7.62 x 39mm ammunition because the NATO round is 12mm TOO LONG for the chamber of an AK-47 - Pretty self explanatory Jom but if you are too bone thick to grasp the concept try pouring a quart into a pint pot, perhaps then you might just get the idea.

4: WHAT ORDER??? Of course I deny that there ever was an order. If you state that there was an order placed by the Syrian Government presented to the British Government then please provide some evidence of it.

5: What WAS applied for by a private individual (Note that Jom a private individual NOT the British Government) was an export licence - NO ORDER. This private individual sought to sell £30,000 worth of ammunition to Syria in 2009. The Export Licence was issued - there is no evidence at all that any ammunition was ever shipped. ALL export licences relating to goods going to Syria from the UK were revoked in the Autumn of 2010. Your contention was that:

a) The British Government had sold weapons to Assad in Syria
b) That those weapons were being used to kill civilians in Homs in March 2012.

Total fabrication on your part driven by your bias and bigotry.

6: The size thing - ever embraced the concept of rational thought Jom? UK has/had more 7.62mm ammunition in 2009 than it knew what to do with. A hang-over from when our standard infantry weapon the L1A1 SLR fired 7.62x51mm ammunition so that was what we had most of that we now no longer needed in such quantity - fair to logically and rationally think that it would be the surplus that would be sold off, as opposed to the stuff our soldiers actually needed over in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:13 AM

Ah Jom so you have to go back five years and even then you have got it completely wrong - AGAIN. Said it before, I'll say it again - You suffer from having the ability to read without having either the intelligence or the ability to understand what it is that you have read.

You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART

Let me rip this piece of nonsense of yours apart shall I?

1: I have never defended selling anything to Syria - what I have done is blow holes in your biased, bigoted Anglophobic attacks on the British Government that are a complete and utter misrepresentation.

2: NATO use standard sizes of small arms ammunition no company in the UK makes small arms ammunition that could be used in Russian, Chinese, former Soviet or former Warsaw Pact weapons. The Syrian Army and Police use

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:15 PM

"instead, many on the extreme fringes are invested in showing it as the exact opposite"
Utter nonsense
Jews fleeing the European pogroms were the backbone of the left movement
It was the left who took to the streets to face Mosley's Blackshirts (only to be batoned down by our gallant 'boys in blue')
The left supported the new Israeli state - as a young man I personally shared platforms with returned Kibbutzim workers fighting against nuclear weapons, South African Apartheid, youth unemployment..... and every other left wing cause that I have been involved in
One of the largest and most active branches of the Manchester Communist Party was the Cheetham Hill one, founded and run by Manchester Jews, many of them Holocaust survivors.
When my mother posted a death notice in the Liverpool Echo when my father died, half a dozen Jewish Freedom Fighters who had fought alongside him in Spain turned up - one had shared one of Franco's prison cell with him.
This is pure fiction Bobad - your arguments have always been political ones here - a defence of the extreme right wing administration that has systematically disgraced and destroyed the dream of a Jewish State.
The people you are defending with these lies and distortions are those who are doing to Muslims what the Nazis did to the Jews - ethnically cleansing them
When the Nazis were exterminating those they didn't approve of, the left were put to death alongside The Jews and the Gypsies.
The left has no history of antisemitism whatever
It was the right, not the left who financed the Nazis, it was German Capitalism that allowed them to carry out the Holocaust and it was Capitalist firms like Bosch, Mercedes, Deutsche Bank, I G Farben and Volkswagen who became extremely rich by using 300,000 Jewish concentration camp slaves, who they allowed to be exterminated when they became to weak to be of further use.
These are the politics you are supporting, so please don't call us Antisemites - not with your political track record
I don't suppose this will raise the slightest blush to your cheeks
You are more likely to respond with your usual "Jew hater" - that's how deep your concern goes for the Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:46 PM

Well I'm a leftie. I've never, ever, wanted to pull down a liberal democracy. You will not find hate in my last post. The opposite. Unfortunately, the behaviour of successive Israeli regimes, propped up unconditionally by the US, has often been anything but liberal and the democracy, despite your protests, has worked for the Jews only. I'm getting sick of saying it, but I gave you a list of facts about the discrimination against Arabs who live in Israel. I gave you checkable facts. Not my opinions. You can have those if you like but the facts speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:11 PM

The story of the Jews and the founding of Israel should be the paradigm of the Left - instead, many on the extreme fringes are invested in showing it as the exact opposite. Jews restored their culture in their ancestral homeland in a forward-looking, liberal democracy. And the Left wants to pull it down in the cause of a fake identity or manufactured group unified by almost nothing but its hate for Israel and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 06:51 PM

There's no attempt to give Jews a state, Al. They have a state and have had it for seventy years and it's a pretty prosperous state at that. Had I been a sentient being in 1948 I'm pretty sure I would have opposed the formation of a state based on one particular religion/ethnicity. But Israel is now a fact, eight million souls live there and, like any other bunch of eight million human beings, Israel must be supported. The ordinary people of Israel, the Jews, the Christians, the atheists, the Muslims and the bedouins, deserve a quiet life of peace, security and prosperity and the best shot at equality that any imperfect democracy can muster. Being hoodwinked into supporting a vicious and bellicose regime, as I believe a very large number of Jewish citizens of Israel are, does not mean that they deserve to be cast into a state of fear and insecurity, and I for one utterly condemn idiots who declare that Israel should be wiped off the map. But successive Israeli regimes, which still live under the spell of those horrid terrorists of Shamir's Stern Gang and Begin's Irgun (note how those guys, among many others, including Sharon, gained fake legitimacy once they entered the politics of the new state), have completely delegitimised the project. The propping-up militarily of the Israeli regime by the US is a disgrace. That's what some of us are on about, Al. It just ain't right.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:54 PM

i wonder why it has never occurred to the rulers of the oil rich nations to better the sad conditions of the Arabs in Israel, detailed above. they could easily afford to.

in the war the southern Irish tried to relieve the people who had been bombed in Belfast. Strange that a similar feeling of solidarity doesn't run through the Arab nations. When they felt Israel was a sitting duck - they committed loads of resources to trying to destroy it.

it is small wonder that people are perturbed about anti- semitism in the labour party. every day, i get anti -Israel messages on facebook.

i don't mind admitting i am uncomfortable with constant one sided criticism of the attempt to give jews a state. particularly when it all seems to emanate from the party i have voted for all my life.
i am not jewish

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 02:24 PM

You want an example of your made-up "facts," Teribus? Well how about this one:

"Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices"

The only person that "so-called" the list "perceived injustices" was you. Nothing at all like those words came from me. I did not call them injustices. I did not "perceive" anything on the list. It is a list containing factual, checkable information only. The statement of yours is predicated on complete invention.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM

"Care to give us an example?"
You hardly ever link your claims - the few times you have have been a shambles.
Virtually every statement you have made has been made arrogantly ("JOM" being an ongoing sign of your arrogant insecurity), so we can assume that, rather than verifying it, you are demanding we take it on face value
You want an example - you six differing reasons for defending selling ammunition to Syria
You finally settled on that the weapons Syria used did not suit the ammunition sent DESPITE HAVING PREVIOUSLY DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE ORDER AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT AT NO TIME HAD THE ORDER EVER BEEN SPECIFIED IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION SIZE - SHEER INVENTION ON YOUR PART
One of many examples, though probably the most blatantly stupid.
You even attempted to use the excuse again when defending the sale of weapons to Qatar and Saudi - unbelievable!!
I'm sure there's a Booker Prize for Fiction in there soemwhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:16 PM

It doesn't matter who you think persecuted the people of Gaza more. That was not the issue. My point was that their population has nearly doubled since 2000 and is predicted to more than double again in the next twenty years. Population growth is not regulated by poverty or persecution. In fact, population growth is lowest in the wealthiest countries on the whole. You were so quick to try to turn round something I didn't actually say in order to point the finger at Hamas. You are three big babies, aren't you? Blinded by your racist ideologies, of course. While you're here, anyone like to defend apartheid on the grounds that the blacks were lucky to have the whites running them? That is precisely what you're doing apropos of the Arab population of Israel. And I'll bet none of you have bothered to check the list of facts I gave you. I can save you the bother if you like. They are accurate and true.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

What bundle of facts have I made up Jom? Care to give us an example?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:46 AM

"When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside."
There is no reason that their life would not have been increased anyway
Now you are arguing that it's ok to invade people's territory because it would be better for them
Good argument for bringing back the empire
"I have never put it up as an excuse, but I do accuse you of always and only singling out Israel for criticism"
Contadiction in terms Keith
When we are aruing on a subject - that is what the subject is - not Outer Mongolia or South America
Why the **** should anywhere else be brought in
If you would like to claim that I have defended atrocities by others that Israel has carried out, feel free to produce them
You are denying exactly what you are doing here - excusing Israel because other people do the same
What kind of fuck-up of an argument is that?
"Israel is the only Jewish State in the world."
And there you go again - blaming the Jews
This is what the Israli regime is doing NOT THE JEWS - THIS IS RAW ANTISEMITISM BY DEFINITION - IT IS ANTISEMITIC TO ASSOCIATE THE ACTIONS OF ISRAEL WITH THE JEWISH PEOPLE - PLEASE STOP POLLUTING THIS FORUM WITH ATTACKS ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

Steve,
The ex-Gaza Christians, etc., are still shagging and reproducing. They are just doing it somewhere else

Yes, they have been driven out by persecution.
Unlike the Arab Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:28 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy of Arab Israelis.

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Those Arabs were the lucky ones.

Israel has been good for them, improving their health and life expectancy.
One cheer for Israel.

That is comparing like with like.
There are many possible explanations for the difference in life expectancy between Jews and Arabs in Israel, but it can not justify you always and only criticising Israel while ignoring the faults of all its neighbours.

Tiny sliver of land that it is, Israel is the only Jewish State in the world.
Is that the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 11:07 AM

Jim,
You have always put it up as an excuse and accused uss of singling outt Israel

I have never put it up as an excuse, but I do accuse you of always and only singling out Israel for criticism while ignoring the much worse record of all its neighbours.
And not just in dicussions about Israel. This thread is not just about Israel.

Steve,
Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted.

Really? Who by? They have suffered from being in a permanent state of war with their powerful neighbour, but that is the fault of their government not persecution.

The Christians who used to live there were persecuted though.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:33 AM

What bundle of facts have I made up Jom? Care to give us an example?

Well said bobad you beat me to it. Nobody but nobody have been let down so badly and consistently as the Arabs of Palestine have been by their "leaders", their track record for poor decisions, rank leadership and disregard for the best interests of their people, represents a catalogue of total failure that stretches back unbroken to 1947.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:14 AM

Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted.

Most thinking people, who are not anti-Semites, will agree that the people of Gaza are persecuted by their own so-called leaders, the terrorist group Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 10:00 AM

a bit more information on these "lifestyle differences"

Probably more queers in Scotland, Steve. Check with Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:53 AM

"Scots die younger than English, but not because they are mistreated.
Check. It. Out.
It is because of cultural and lifestyle differences like smoking and diet.
Check. It. Out."

Would you care to provide a bit more information on these "lifestyle differences" and their impact on life expectancy, please? Would you like to castigate the Scots for their deep-fried Mars Bars while you're at it?

"Israel has been good for them."

The usual excuse-mantra of the white racists in apartheid South Africa and Southern Rhodesia was that the blacks were better off because we're here, so what are they complaining about? You're exactly in line with those thugs, aren't you, Keith? You don't like being called racist, do you, but you brand yourself with the label every time you open your mouth about Israel. The Arabs who live in Israel are discriminated against in many aspects of life. The information (not my opinions) is all out there but you shut your eyes to the mistreatment of a minority ethnic group, try to make bogus arguments to show how well they're doing and instead make excuses precisely along the lines of those hateful regimes in Southern Africa. Racism personified. "I'm not a racist, but bloody hell, those ungrateful Arabs in Israel and their supporters don't half moan..."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 09:34 AM

Well most thinking people would regard the people of Gaza as persecuted. The population of Gaza has almost doubled in twenty years and will double again in the next twenty. You are mischievously contrasting the growth of one native population with the emigration of another. The ex-Gaza Christians, etc., are still shagging and reproducing. They are just doing it somewhere else. Your ludicrous equation of population growth with wellbeing is given the lie to the whole world over. Birth rates are nearly always higher in poorer countries. You have no point to make here.