BS: Six Day War 50 Years On

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM

"No it is not. No one is saying it is an excuse."
You have always put it up as an excuse and accused uss of singling outt Israel (on discussions of Israel)
It is a squalid defence of terrorism to point elsewhere and deny facts - that is what you do - it is the only thing you do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:35 AM

Jim,
None of these things have anything to do with the way Arabs are treated in Israel and bringing them up as an excuse is racist

No it is not. No one is saying it is an excuse.
You quoted me (three times!!) NOT saying it made it OK.
You made that up.

Those things were pointed out to put Israel's supposed crimes into perspective. Surrounding nations all behave much worse so why do you always and only single out Israel for criticism?

Steve,
Grows? All populations grow, you clown.

Not true.
Genuinely persecuted populations shrink, like the Christian populations of Iraq, Gaza and West Bank.
The Arab community in Israel is growing much faster than the Jewish community, so they are not suffering that much.

Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours? Not as long as their Jewish neighbours they don't. Check. It. Out.

Scots die younger than English, but not because they are mistreated.
Check. It. Out.
It is because of cultural and lifestyle differences like smoking and diet.
Check. It. Out.
Such differences will be more pronounced between Jew and Arab than English and Scot!

When Israel was created, those Arabs within its borders had their life expectancy increased compared to those Arabs left outside.
Check. It. Out.
Israel has been good for them.
One cheer for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 07:14 AM

Grows? All populations grow, you clown.

Thrives? Not nearly as much as the Jewish population. You've had the facts on that. Arabs in Israel are discriminated against. Check the facts out for yourself instead of sitting there wriggling around.

Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours? Not as long as their Jewish neighbours they don't. Check. It. Out. And stop peddling half-truths.

Go on now. Check out the comparative data (not my opinion) on housing, on educational provision, on medical provision and on infant mortality. Check out the data on pay and unemployment. Check out the data on the "facilities" endured by tens of thousands of native Bedouin Arabs in the Negev. I don't need to give you my opinions. The facts speak for themselves. But you refuse to look at them. Not once have you challenged bobad's ridiculous claim that Arabs in Israel enjoy absolute equality. A complete nonsense, easy to see if you CHECK THE FACTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

None of these things have anything to do with the way Arabs are treated in Israel and bringing them up as an excuse is racist
Israel is a wealthy country, largely due to outside support - these countries are not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:07 AM

Steve, you raised the issue of life expectancy.
It is a fact that Israeli Arabs live longer than their neighbours.
It is a fact that their population thrives and grows.
It is a fact that the population of Christian Arabs in Gaza and West Bank has collapsed because of genuine persecution by other Arabs.

It is not racist to point those facts out, but you always resort to smearing when you lose an argument.
You have still not challenged a single point I have made.
You have no case.
It is racist to always and only attack the only Jewish State while ignoring the far worse behaviour of all its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:03 AM

"Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices"

So-called by who? Certainly not by me. Stop making things up. The information I gave you, without emotion, is all entirely factual and easily checkable. OK, we get it that you, Keith and bobad don't want to believe it so are frightened to check it out. Unfortunately, that attitude makes you look idiotic. Go and check it out. Robomatic, there's plenty of content and focus in my posts, unlike yours. Sad to see you descending to the level of the not-so-fab three.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 04:18 AM

"Shaw and of Carroll that if you do not agree with their POV and their line argument that you are accused of being guilty of every ".....ism" in the book and being every ""
And it is your tactic to make up a bundle of facts which have no relation to the truth and when you are found out, sprint away from them
Refugees flee from wars and massive persecution - it is the last resort
It is a little different than being treated as a second-rate citizen in your own homeland
You have been given the actual evidence - reported, documented, researched, even filmed - on how the Arabs in Israel are being treated
To flee from that treatment would be to accept defeat, which is what ETHNIC CLEANSING is about
They don't give up and flee because it is their ancestral homeland.
Keith justifies that treatment by claiming that they would be treated worse elshere - a scummy level of argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 01:59 AM

As far as what I have said in this discussion to date goes. I addressed Shaw's list of so-called perceived injustices meted out to Israeli Arabs and asked the perfectly reasonable question why it was that among the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of refugees from Muslim and Arab countries you will not find one single Israeli Arab. I cannot see anything "racist" in asking that question at all. Unfortunately it is an all too common tactic of the likes of Shaw and of Carroll that if you do not agree with their POV and their line argument that you are accused of being guilty of every ".....ism" in the book and being every "......ist" imaginable.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:59 PM

Steve: None of the above. I referred to your personalizing your posts and lack of subject matter. This does not appear to have changed, so I'll go back to making points and abstain from counting coup. Feeling superior? Little bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:12 PM

Try to focus. That's what I do. You accused me of being condescending. Then you refer to my very plain speaking, mostly couched in words of one syllable, as verbiage. Have you actually got anything to say or are you drowning in your superiority complex?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:19 PM

Way to double down there, Steve! I sense a strong self righteous tone in your verbiage which IMO does not make your point go down any better. I have discussed, in friendly terms, the unfortunate inter ethnic conflicts in Israel with some local Palestinians and the R word didn't occur, although it became clear that among their grievances against the current regime was that Israel had allowed in Africans (Falashas) and was very open to LGBTQs.

I'm not sure what the equivalent -ist word to use against the homophobic. Here and now I'll coin these folks as homophobists. But using it against them wouldn't have made them feel any better or more understood. Probably the reverse.Their feelings against Shia Muslims were if anything more combustible than their feelings against Jews, so they were anti-semitic, too. But that would not have brought clarity.

Maybe leave your family out of it and give the other poster a break, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:47 PM

What I told you about my uncles is the unvarnished truth. They are both dead now but I left them in no doubt as to my opinion of them. I'm ashamed of belonging to a family that espoused that, but that kind of thing has shaped my views all my life. They were racists through and through, and I see no difference between them and Keith, Teribus and bobad, for the reasons I've given in my posts. I worked in schools in East London and Walthamstow for thirteen years, in schools with very large ethnic minorities. Let me tell you that I know precisely what racism is. I swore to myself, after seeing kids victimised by it, and one family who lost three members to a racist crime involving a petrol bomb pushed through their letterbox, that I would never fail to call it out wherever I saw it. And I see it here in the attitudes to Arab citizens of Israel in this thread. My criticisms of the perpetrators here is very plain, not all condescending, and the label writ large with the word racist is fully deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:20 PM

I'd very much appreciate it if people will make their points without the ad hominems. I've got some contributing to do to this thread before some sensitive mod closes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:15 PM

The permanently outraged love to take things far beyond any rational conclusion in order to construct their platform of moral superiority.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:25 PM

Steve Shaw. You made your point well, whether or not it is true. But you weaken your argument when you descend to labels and are as condescending as you claim your opposition is.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:18 PM

Nothing vacuous, Keith. You are absolutely bang to rights. You are suggesting that a repressed ethnic group should consider themselves lucky because things are that much worse just over the border. Horrible racism. I had two uncles, both dead now, who lived in Smith's Rhodesia in the fifties and early sixties. Detestably, they both kept a family of servants (they called them "house-boys" even though they were grown men with wives and kids) who lived in shacks at the far ends of their huge gardens. They paid them a pittance, just enough to survive, but their justification was that these "chappies" would have been much worse off had it not been for my uncles' beneficence. That is exactly what you, Teribus and bobad are saying about the Arabs in Israel: they may well be discriminated against (they are, but you refuse to check it out), but they should still consider themselves lucky that they don't live in those horrid countries next door. You are a dyed-in-the-wool racist, Keith. My uncles would have loved you to bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:45 PM

I recall that just prior to the Six-Day-War there was a war going on in Yemen (not involving Israel) and poison gas was involved. When I checked Wikipedia it said that Egypt was participating in a civil war in the area. Anybody remember this?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:01 PM

"I have not. You just made that up.. If I did, QUOTE ME!"
You did just that Keith when you compared the treatment you claim Arabs would get in neighboring countries "The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel."
What happens elsewhere has no bearing whatever to what happens in the country being diccussed
Want me to repeat it?
""The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.""
There you go
One more time
"The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel."
in addition
"No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?"
There - confirmation that this is what you meant
You are a nasty little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:46 PM

Jim,
You argue that Governments can treat people who settle in their countries in anyway they see fit as long as it can be shown that other countries would treat them worse

I have not. You just made that up.. If I did, QUOTE ME!

Steve,
You are indulging in a very ugly argument, Keith.

Vacuous, empty abuse. If that is not a lie, QUOTE ME!

is the clearest indication yet that you are a racist.

Now the filthiest lying smear. If I have said anything remotely racist QUOTE ME LIAR!

. The fact that Arabs native to Israel show little inclination to move to neighbouring countries is evidence of precisely nothing.

It is evidence that they are not so persecuted that they leave, as the Christians have been leaving Gaza and West Bank from persecution.
Added to the hard evidence of their thriving population numbers and life expectancies significantly higher than Arabs in surrounding states it shows that to be an Arab Israeli is no great hardship, and much better than being an Arab Egyptian or Lebanese or Jordanian or Syrian.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:08 PM

You are indulging in a very ugly argument, Keith. The fact that you can't see it, or that you justify it, is the clearest indication yet that you are a racist. The fact that Arabs native to Israel show little inclination to move to neighbouring countries is evidence of precisely nothing. It certainly isn't evidence that they are happy with a situation that is demonstrably worse than the ruling ethnic majority in their country. You wouldn't apply that argument to anyone else who would rather stay with their families, their family homes and their native country. Racist through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:58 PM

"I do not argue that."
You argue that Governments can treat people who settle in their countries in anyway they see fit as long as it can be shown that other countries would treat them worse
So Pakistanis moving to be Britain can be forced to live in squalid conditions as long as it can be shown that their home country's conditions woild be worse
What a horrific argument - racist in the extreme - again
Wonder where that leaves all the refugees fleeing Assad
Stupid, stupid argument
Jim Carroll

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html
The Telegraph
Jerusalem
Israeli Arabs are the minority that dare not speak their name.
For decades, the world's attention has dwelt on their Arab brothers and sisters who call themselves Palestinian and who live in the occupied territories or the refugee diaspora around the Middle East. But there is still a large number of Arabs who live as citizens of the Jewish state - approximately 1.4 million or 20 per cent of the overall seven million population - and it is possible to detect rumblings of their discontent.
In theory, they have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis. The Israeli government can point at a declaration of independence and a basic law that officially enshrines equality for all Israeli citizens, no matter their religion. But theory and reality rarely tally and you have only to pass through the terminal at Ben Gurion airport to notice how Israel's Arab population are subtly airbrushed out of the way. When the gleaming new building was opened, nobody thought to include signs in Israel's second language, Arabic.
And when you read the results of Israeli public opinion polls, it is possible to wonder how the Jewish state has any Arab citizens whatsoever. In a recent survey, more than half of those questioned said they believed a Jewish woman marrying an Arab man to be a "betrayal of the country and the Jewish people''. And 50.9 per cent agreed the state should encourage Arab Israelis to leave the country.
No wonder that fans supporting the country's league-leading soccer team, Beitar Jerusalem - the Manchester United of Israel - shout, "We hope you get cancer'' when an Israeli Arab player on the opposition team touches the ball. Beitar fans even threatened a season ticket boycott when the club considered hiring its first Israeli Arab player. While Israeli Arabs are meant to enjoy equal status, it took until this year - 59 years after the state was founded - for the first Israeli Arab Muslim to occupy a seat in cabinet.
The appointment of Ghaleb Majadla as science minister might have been a moment for celebration among the country's Arab minority, but it also reopened old wounds. You might have expected Right-wing Jewish extremists to be unhappy, but some of the most powerful dissent came from senior Jewish parliamentarians such as Esterina Tartman, who heads the parliamentary bloc of Yisrael Beitenu. This is not a fringe movement: it is a partner in Israel's coalition government. In her view, the appointment of an Israeli Arab minister was a "gigantic axe blow to the tree trunk of Zionism and a Jewish state''.
Another Right-wing MP demanded that the new minister be subjected to extra security vetting because, unlike a Jewish Israeli, he cannot be assumed to be a trusted guardian of the country's scientific knowledge. Amid such hostility, it was not surprising to hear of Israeli Arab unhappiness at their lot. What was surprising was to hear that this unhappiness might crystallise into the biggest danger to the Jewish state.
For nearly 60 years, external threats have shaped the history of Israel as they have few other countries. Wars with Egypt, Jordan and Syria, as well as the running sore of relations with the Palestinian Authority, have been the yardstick against which Israelis measure their security. But, according to one MP, the real danger now lies within its borders - and is of its own making.
"Arab citizens are growing as a proportion of our population, but are increasingly alienated," said Nadia Hilo, Israel's first female Arab MP, who was elected to the Knesset last year. "The discrimination is coming from the civil service and public sector in particular, where Arab Israelis find it much harder to find jobs than Jewish applicants."
While Israeli Arabs are about one in five of the population, they are projected to become an even bigger minority in the future, as their birth rate outstrips that of Jewish Israelis. Nevertheless, they continue to encounter discrimination in the workplace, despite boasting an impressive number of university graduates.
"There's a definite problem of racism; there's more and more division," said Miss Hilo. "The real danger to Israel comes from inside if it does not give its Arab citizens equality and integration. This generation won't bow the head and be deferential like our parents were. They are well educated and will not tolerate discrimination."
Miss Hilo believes positive discrimination is the only way to stop resentment among fellow Arabs spilling over into unrest. She is calling for annual targets to be established, guaranteeing Arabs with the same qualifications as Jews a quota of public sector jobs. Miss Hilo, herself an example of the success Arab Israelis can achieve, emphasises that her campaign is not motivated simply by wanting to right a social wrong.
"The government doesn't use us to advance Israel, when we could do so much to alter perceptions of our country around the world," she said. The Labour Party MP is candid about her ruling party's priorities, however. "Ministers only think one to two years ahead," she said. "I'm not sure if it will ever happen."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:09 PM

You're having one of your ultra-stupid days, as opposed to one of your merely very stupid days.

As ever you resort to abuse when you lose.
You are clearly unable to challenge anything that I have said, or you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:04 PM

You choose argue that they put up with being treated as second class citizens because they would be treated worse elsewhere

I do not argue that.
I do argue that conditions are worse in surrounding states, and that Arabs would migrate if that were not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:03 PM

It's infra dig, Keith. You're having one of your ultra-stupid days, as opposed to one of your merely very stupid days.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:01 PM

You mean you can not challenge or answer anything I have said, as usual Steve.

If you could you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:57 AM

An even more stupid post than usual, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

"No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?"
Of course they are
You choose argue that they put up with being treated as second class citizens because they would be treated worse elsewhere
Even if it were true, which it is not (no other state is driving legally occupying citizens with chemical sprays as if happening in Israel.
It's a stupid "we'll reat you how we like"
argument

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel...

You can venture to say anything you like but without evidence/substantiation its still bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Steve,
These are bigoted and racist remarks

No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

There were several protagonists in the 6 Day War, but you always and only single out one, the only Jewish state, for criticism.

You made an apt analogy of children's behaviour.
If you only and always chastise little Johnny's behaviour even though surrounding kids are behaving worse, and little Johnny happens to be the only Jewish kid, you invite the suspicion that his ethnicity is relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:14 AM

"Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism "
Funny the people wh choose to ignore the hordes of Jews who condemn the Israeli regime and resent being implicated in its crimes
It really is down to which Jew you choose to listen to - not a coincidence that he ones you support are of the extreme right
Israel is an extremely wealthy country - the fact that some Arabs
prefer to live there rather than the impoverished ones says nothing about how they are treated
They stay there because it is traditionally their home and refuse to be driven out by ethnic cleansers
Jim Carroll

Q&A: Israeli Arabs
About 20% of Israel's population are of Palestinian Arab descent. Israeli Arabs often complain they are second-class citizens, while some Jewish Israelis fear they form a "fifth column".
Israeli Arabs protests against Israeli operation in Gaza
Israeli-Arab protests against Israeli military action worry some
Who are the Israeli Arabs?
About a fifth of Israel's population - roughly 1.45m people - are of Palestinian Arab descent.
During the war that surrounded the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were forced from or fled their homes. Those who remained within what became Israel, and their descendents, have been granted citizenship and are known as Israeli Arabs.
In addition there are about 250,000 Arab residents of occupied East Jerusalem. The majority have refused citizenship, so are not described as Israeli Arabs, but still have Israeli residency.
About 80% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim, the rest are divided, roughly equally, between Christians and Druze.
The majority of Israeli Arabs identify closely with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and often describe themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel" and "1948 Palestinians".
What is their status in Israel?
Israel defines itself as both Jewish and democratic, but some argue it is impossible for it to be both without discriminating against non-Jews.
The Israeli government says Israeli Arabs are citizens with equal rights - although their "civic duty" differs as they are exempt from compulsory military service.
It points out that Israel's Declaration of Independence promises equality for all.
But one Israeli-Arab MP has described Israel as "democratic for Jews and Jewish for Arabs" and Israeli Arabs frequently describe themselves as "second class citizens".
The Orr Commission, a government inquiry, concluded in 2003 that "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory".
And the US state department says Israeli Arabs face "institutional, legal, and societal discrimination".
Where do they live?
The largest concentration of Israeli Arabs is in the north of Israel, in towns such as Nazareth, Um al-Fahm and Sakhnin. Many also live in mixed cities such as Haifa, Jaffa and Acre.
The Israeli state appropriated what the Orr commission described as "vast expanses" of land owned by Arabs who fled or were forced out in the wake of 1948.
This and subsequent policies resulted in a "drastic decrease" in the land available to Israeli Arabs, the commission said.
Although determining accurate figures is difficult, advocacy groups say Israeli Arabs now live on about 3% of the land in Israel, despite making up about 20% of the population.
Since 1948, no new Arab towns - apart from Bedouin townships - have been founded, although the Israeli-Arab population has grown at least sevenfold.
Many Arab communities were surrounded by areas used for security purposes, Jewish regional councils, national parks and highways, that prevent or block future expansion, the commission said.
According to advocacy groups, some 160,000 Bedouin Arabs live in the Negev in southern Israeli, about half of them in "unrecognised settlements" which are cut off from basic services.
Most of the rest live in impoverished towns established by the state.
What are Israeli Arabs' living conditions like?
More than half of Israeli-Arab families are living in poverty, compared to about 15% of Jewish Israeli families, and the gap is widening.
For all but one of the past five years, Israeli-Arab communities have received less than 5% of government development funding each year, according to the Mossawa advocacy centre.
Municipal services in many Israeli-Arab communities are inferior to those in Jewish areas, with classrooms shortages, ageing roads and a lack of local employment opportunities.
Some Israelis blame lower levels of municipal tax collection in Israeli-Arab areas for the gap.
The Mossawa Centre says some Israeli Arabs are unwilling to pay taxes for poor local services, but adds that Israeli-Arab areas tend to have fewer of the factories, businesses and government offices that feed municipal coffers in other areas.
The US state department says Israeli Arabs are "underrepresented in most fields of employment". For example, the Mossawa Centre says only 8% of employees in government offices are Israeli-Arab and of 70,000 employees in hi-tech companies only 300 are Arabs.
There is no state-funded Arabic language university.
Israeli Arabs also miss out on benefits, such as housing and educational subsidies, available to people who have completed national service.
The foreign ministry has said that this can outweigh the advantage gained from being able to start higher education earlier than those who serve in the military.
Are Jewish and Arab Israelis equal under the law?
The Israeli government says yes, Israeli-Arab advocacy groups say no.
The Mossawa Centre says at least 20 laws discriminate overtly or tacitly against them. It points out that Israeli Arabs are not classed as an official minority and says Arabic, though an official language, does not have the same status as Hebrew. Muslim and Christian festivals are not national holidays; Jewish ones are.
One particularly controversial law is the 2003 Citizenship Law, under which Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza - women under 25 and men under 35 - who marry Israelis are not usually allowed to move to Israel.
Palestinians over those ages are granted only temporary residency, not citizenship. Israel says the law is necessary for security; Israeli Arabs say it discriminates as it affects them disproportionately.
Another hard-fought area is access to land.
About 93% of land in Israel is owned by state or semi-state bodies and is then leased to citizens.
Thirteen percent of the land is owned by the Jewish National Fund, which was founded specifically to buy land for a Jewish homeland. Its directors have a powerful role in the state body that controls the other 80% of the land. Israeli Arabs have long complained of difficulties in leasing this land.
Three legal cases since 2000 have, however, set precedents with rulings that neither the state nor local residents' committees can block the leasing of land on the basis of race.
But MPs have tried to use legislation to overturn the rulings, and advocacy groups say it is still, in practice, difficult for Israeli Arabs to lease much state-controlled land.
Where is their role politically?
Israeli Arabs were under military rule until 1966. Independent Arab political parties did not emerge until the 1980s and 1990s.
There are currently 13 Israeli-Arab members in the 120-seat Knesset, (10 representing primarily Arab parties).
Israeli Arabs are frequently dubbed a "fifth column" in Israel, particularly at times of heightened tensions with the Palestinians such as the second intifada or recent Gaza conflict, when Israeli Arabs held protests.
Some Israeli Arabs do not participate in national elections as they do not believe their vote will change anything, or do not wish to recognise the Israeli state.
An Islamist group called the Islamic Movement champions the latter position, although it participates in local polls.
A handful of Israeli-Arab leaders have been investigated for visiting Syria - with which Israel is still technically at war. Accusations of incitement are frequently traded between Israeli-Arab and right-wing Jewish politicians.
What is the Israeli government's position?
The Israeli government points out that, since the creation of Israel, Israeli Arabs have seen dramatic gains in areas such as education, health care and areas such as women's rights.
It says other factors, such as large families and the low level of female employment, as well as discrimination, contribute to the lower socio-economic position of Israeli Arabs.
The Orr Commission was established after 13 Israeli-Arabs were killed by police trying to quell riots as the second Palestinian uprising or intifada broke out in 2000.
The commission found police incompetence, a history of discrimination and also incitement by Israeli-Arab leaders had all contributed to the incident.
Israeli Arabs were angered that police involved in the deaths did not face trial.
The right-leaning government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu includes a minorities minister.
It has announced a $40m fund for joint state-private sector investment in minority businesses.
But coalition members have also proposed two controversial bills.
One demands Israeli Arabs pledge allegiance to Israel as a Jewish state.
The other initially sought to ban marking the Nakba, the term meaning "catastrophe" that Palestinians use to describe the creation of Israel.
It has been watered down to stop state funding for activities which reject the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:48 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay...

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel than they would anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:13 AM

Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism is are the same to tell the Israeli Arabs, who would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world, how badly they are being treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:06 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay.....

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:23 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."

So almost a quarter of Arab citizens would rather up sticks, leave their families, their homes and the country of their birth behind in order to live in one of those dreadful nearby foreign countries that Keith and Teribus keep telling us about. Dunno about you, but I regard that as a dreadful failing of the Israeli regime. So the other 77% would rather stay. Was there a question in the survey about how reluctantly they made that decision? Instead of clutching at straws that aren't even straws, why don't you just look up the stuff I told you about? That's the facts of the matter, easily checkable, not some peculiar survey that seems to be based around a simplistic question that in any case yielded a result that doesn't support your case. None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:31 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."
There has ben no survey to suggest that those figures have not been snatched out of thee air but they are immaterial anyway
Israel is wealthier than its neighbors and it is inevitable that all who live there are better off
The Inequality Report has shown that Arabs are treated as second class citizens and that their rights as citizens are being eroded.
This is a fair summation of the rights of Arabs in Israel
Jim Carroll

While world attention is focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a crisis is brewing among Israel's own Arab citizens.
"This is not a democracy, it is an ethnocracy," complains Assad Ghanem, senior lecturer in political science at Israel's Haifa University.
Ghanem is an Arab Israeli, a descendent of the indigenous population that did not flee, or was not driven away during the war in 1948/49 when the Jewish state was founded.
Arab Israelis now make up some 20 percent of Israel's six million-plus population. In a country that defines itself as Jewish and that has always been in conflict with the surrounding Arab countries and with the Palestinians, the position of this minority has always been uncomfortable.
Since the outbreak of the current Intifadah in the West Bank and Gaza, relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel have worsened. The Arab minority was shocked and traumatized when the police killed 13 members of their community during demonstrations inside Israel during the early days of the Intifadah in September and October 2000.
The rest of the Israeli public was equally shocked by the pro-Palestinian demonstrations and by the subsequent increase in the number of Arab Israelis said to have been aiding Palestinian terror attacks inside the country.
This week the International Crisis Group (ICG), a non-governmental organization that aims to help resolve conflict situations issued a report on the tensions between Israel and its Arab citizens. It concluded that the problem has been ignored, relative to the attention focused on the country's relations with the Palestinians and the Arab countries. It also warned that further neglect could threaten the long-term stability of Israel.
Nowadays Assad Ghanem scoffs at being called an Arab citizen of Israel. "We are not full citizens, this country is only for the Jews," he told IPS. He has become markedly more disillusioned about the situation over the last couple of years. "The way the police killed our people in 2000 shows that we don't count, we don't even have the possibility to demand our rights."
The ICG report notes that the trouble "goes to the heart of Israel's self-definition as both a Jewish and a democratic state and because of the complex, multi-layered nature of inter-communal relations – an Arab minority living in a Jewish state that is in conflict with its far more populous Arab neighbors."
Ghanem agrees to an extent. He thinks the only solution is "regime change," meaning "the end of Jewish hegemony in Israel." The Jewish nature of the state, he says, can be expressed symbolically in things such as the flag and the national anthem. Short of that he sees no solution, since the Arab minority has nobody to talk to.
Yitzhak Reiter, a political scientist at Jerusalem's Hebrew University who specializes in the country's Arab minority agrees to a degree. Neither Jews nor Arabs are willing at the moment to compromise on their demands, which means they are set on an inevitable collision course, he told IPS.
The Jewish majority is not willing to compromise on what it regards as the essential attributes of a Jewish state, while the Arab minority too often wants to eliminate all practical expressions of the Judaism of the state.
Reiter thinks this can be resolved eventually if, as the ICG recommends, an inclusive dialogue is started between the groups. The end result, he believes, could be a state that retains the symbolic attributes of Judaism as Ghanem suggests, but also some 'minimal' practical means of ensuring the function of the country as a haven for Jews. The state would retain a Jewish majority, meaning control over immigration policy.
The ICG report, Ghanem and Reiter all speak of serious discrimination against the Arab Israelis. Ghanem mentions the 'Judaization' campaigns in parts of the country such as the Galilee where the government thinks it is important to create Jewish majorities.
But Israel's Arab citizens also "enjoy political rights unknown to many in the region," the ICG report says. This includes a vote, and a high degree of freedom of expression and association.
Even so, they are politically under-represented, according to the ICG. Reiter says this is mainly because they are never included in coalition government by the "Zionist" parties, which means they never get the benefits of sharing power. Also, says Reiter, they are seriously underrepresented among the country's civil servants.
Reiter proposes creation of a formal Arab body as representative of the community, so that complaints can be discussed more readily.
The ICG and Reiter both note that a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians may make reconciliation with the country easier. "Without a peace agreement, it is difficult to see how the situation can improve," says Reiter.
For the time being the Arab minority is feeling increasingly frustrated and isolated. "The fact that there is no violence now does not mean that we are happy," says Ghanem. "It means we are afraid."
The ICG calls these tensions a serious threat to the stability of the country. Reiter tones that down a bit. "It certainly is a challenge to the stability but the state has the military power and the security services to deal with it," he says. "We may see more demonstrations like the ones in October 2000 and more repression and that would be very bad both for the Jews and the Arabs in this country."
https://antiwar.com/orig/branham.php?articleid=2093

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:14 AM

What memories do I have of 1967 and the "six day war "?? Well, at the time , I was serving aboard the aircraft-carrier HMS Eagle ,and about to leave for Aden ; however, the Suez canal was blocked by sunken ships and rendered impassable . Therefore, we were obliged to get to Aden the "long way round" , stopping at Ascencion Island to give aid to a badly-damaged US aircraft-carrier ,then having a short stay in Capetown,followed by an unscheduled stop at Gan ((Addu Atoll) in the Maldives in order to recover one of our Sea Vixens which had overshot the runway there, arriving ,eventually, in Singapore ,by which time the "six day war" was well and truly over ,and the Aden emergency was in its last throes. Facts from our 1967/68 commission ; distance travelled ; 112,000 miles ;fuel oil consumed ;220,000 tons.I don't know offhand how many gallons that is, or what our miles-per gallon ( or gallons per mile) figures were, but it was probably quite expensive!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:50 AM

""singling out for criticism the only "
The fact that is the "Jewish State in the world" is the very reason it needs to be "singled out"
Israel is largely made up of refugees from the worst act of genocide in the modern world
The various regimes who have ruled Israel in the manner they have, have betrayed those refugees and their dream of a world free of persecution such as that inflicted by the Nazis.
The final betrayal has been to commit war crimes and atrocities against other ethnic groups in the name of the Jewish People.
A long way from the comment of a holocaust survivor friend told me "never again - not to anybody"
The atrocities carried out by the Israelis are no different than those carried out elsewhere but they are a damn sight more dangerous to this planet as a whole as Israel is a wealthy state, well armed and protected to the extent of being nuclear facilitated.
The fact that its atrocities are carried out in order to expand its borders (go, look at the maps) makes their claim of "defence" a disgusting excuse, no better than those who used it to explain massacres such as Lidicé (go count the dead on both sides to see how "defensive" Israeli behaviour is)
some of Israel's fiercest and most vehement critics are Jews, from Einstein to former Mossad directors and Holocaust survivors and their descendants
Your disgusting excuse that it is wrong to critiscise Israel because it is "Jewish" or because other people do it is as low as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:31 AM

"singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world"

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

"The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Egypt's Bedouin have a far worse existence than those in Israel, so again I question your motive for singling out Israel."

These are bigoted and racist remarks as you are telling Arabs in Israel, who are discriminated against, that they should be happy with their lot because other countries may treat them even worse. You are suggesting that Arabs moving out of their own native country, away from their homes and families, is a potential solution for their mistreatment. Shuddering echoes of apartheid South Africa and Iain Smith's Rhodesia there. Ugly. And my motive in contributing to this thread is to correct bobad's inaccurate comments about perfect equality for Arabs in Israel. I note that you have nothing to say about that, going off on a sidetrack as usual about how other countries are even worse. Both you and Teribus are happy to accept that blinkered stance without bothering to check the real facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

What is "bigoted" Steve is always and only singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbouring states.
That is real "bigoted shite" Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM

Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise.

You always and only criticises Israel while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbours.
Your motive for that is questionable indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:56 AM

Keith has typed that bigoted shite

Keith just typed facts.
You always resort to abuse when you lose Steve.

You can not challenge a single thing that I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

What a stupid thing to say. Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise. And I didn't say "horrendous" either. I gave you factual information without exaggeration that is easily checkable. I note that you're still blustering on even though you're not bothering to check. Just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:02 AM

If "Palestine" is their "rightful" home Jom, why are there so many "Palestinians" cooped up in refugee camps in "Palestine"? Yet there is not one single Israeli Arab, or Jew, living in a refugee camp in Israel.

"Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you"

Shaw seemed to have suggested it while detailing the horrendous levels of discrimination and deprivation meted out to Israeli Arabs that apparently is not meted out to Arabs elsewhere.

Anyone suffering such treatment who does not actively take steps to correct the situation can only be regarded as a complete and utter cnut (Anag).

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

The clowns in question being Keith and Teribus, of course. I wonder whether Keith has typed that bigoted shite of his straight after he's been saying his Sunday prayers down the church...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:53 AM

Excuse me, you clowns. My posts are a direct response to Bobad's claims apropos of perfect equality for Arab citizens in Israel. Your usual bleats about how much worse things are in other countries (which I have no interest in denying, by the way) are facile and childish. We should let off little Johnny for stealing little Mary's sweeties just because little Jimmy has been looking up the girls' skirts. That's how it goes. Just to remind you that one bloody good reason for a person not fleeing their country is that they were born there and all their family lives there. When we did we ever run our countries on the basis of if you don't like it here, especially if you're not in my ethnic group, just bugger off? By the way, the information I've provided is easily accessible from neutral sources, Teribus. Clasping your hands over your ears instead of looking it up for yourself just because I brought it up is piling childishness on childishness. Look it up. Not one word of it is made up. In fact, it's a fair bit worse than I said. Off you go now.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:52 AM

"Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll e"
More talking down from a mental midget
They are not "fleeing" because it is their rightful home - only a bully would make such a suggestion.
Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you
Peopes homes are peoples homes wherever the are
These are people fighting being ethnic cleansed out of existence and you are suggesting they should fuck off elsewhere to avoid being wiped out - which sums the Israeli position up perfectly
None of which addresses the war crimes and atrocities that are regularly taking place by a criminal regime that has only avioded being brought to trial by the support of a war-criminal superstate using its U.N. veto
If Israel wasn't led by a criminal regime it would not need that veto and all the "decent democratic" nations would be protesting to the high heavens that their friend was being unjustly accused - none are - they are just keeping schtumm out of self-interest
ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES
Now - where'd your howl of protest from these "decent, democratic nations"
No ?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

"Israel has a system of universal health care run by semi-private non-profit corporations heavily regulated by the government, whereas all citizens are entitled to the same Uniform Benefit Package."

"Israel's Arab population has a life expectancy of 75.9 years for males, and 79.7 years for females."

Jordan, male 72.5, female 75.9
Egypt, male 68.8, female 73.2
Lebanon male 73.5 female 76.5

Israel's Arabs are much better off than Arab Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:31 AM

Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll et al if as you claim things are so bad for Israeli Arabs under this regime of "ethnic cleansing" why are they not fleeing the place to the obvious paradise destinations just over the borders of Israel - Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Gaza?

Among all those refugees streaming across the Med how many of them are Israeli Arabs?

I can tell you why there is no exodus of Israeli Arabs, but I'd like to hear your explanation of a fact that completely contradicts everything you state about the lot of an Arab in Israel compared to anywhere else in the region.