very much OS: Suicidal Friend

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 11:16 PM

Save the obvious, all of the above is excellent advice. As long as your friend is talking about it you're working. Of the 4 people close to me who have committed suicide, NONE talked about it beforehand. In retrospect, we all saw signs, but they never verbalized it. Your friend shows many of the symptons we deal with from many of our teens that have been in foster care, clinical depression. Take Aine's advice (and others) and get your friend to decide to seek help...forcing her to go won't do it. Then, perhaps a combination of drugs, counseling, diet, and friendship will help. For you emily....keep on hangin' in. If you get tired of Rick, call me at 740-569-7610. I know what you're going through and the sheer helplessness you feel can take you down the road too. We're here, or a phone call away.

Spaw

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:47 PM

Emily,

You've already told her pretty much what I would've: get on prozac, get on zoloft, get on luvox, get on whatever a qualified psychiatrist prescribes for the case. These medicines sometimes have only a marginal effect, but sometimes, as I understand, that margin makes all the difference between feeling overwhelmed and feeling equal to one's troubles. Other than that, I can only repeat what Diesel said: keep talking.

I know this is easy for me to say when it's you on whom the burden falls. Has she other friends, besides you and the one other you mentioned, who agree with your evaluation of the situation's seriousness ? With their help at least you won't feel as if you are the only one who even sees the trouble.

You and your friend are in the thoughts and prayers of many of us here at the Mudcat. Maybe that isn't much, but it's more than nothing.

T.

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: _gargoyle
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:38 PM

OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS!!!!

Sorry to add...the """""cavete emptore""""""(sic) to the above posting.

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: _gargoyle
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:37 PM

Mr. Rick Fielding....

Given
............. your above statement

Will....either, MAX, or dick, or susan

Be held liable for their participation?

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:30 PM

In total agreement Bonnie. I didn't feel that for long. In actual fact, having for most of my life been part of an "artist's community", it's a wonder that I haven't lost more friends and acquaintances. Almost everyone I know in theatre and dance have lost friends to aids or suicide (often one resulting in the other)
I learned about 10 years ago that one remedy for myself when I was feeling misunderstood was to read ANYTHING of Quentin Crisp. I inevitably feel MUCH better almost instantly. He speaks to me in a way no religion or self-help book ever could. Sadly I found out that his suggestions for being happy and content don't work for most folks.
Hang in Emily.

Rick

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Diesel
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:26 PM

Emily

There is only one solution : Talk !

Talk,talk and don't stop talking ! This is only half the battle, the other half is Listen !

Listen,listen and then listen some more. Your friend is calling for help and needs someone to listen - not necessarily have answers to give but a shoulder to lean on.

Stay with her Emily and don't for one minute let her think you aren't there to listen - on the phone, ready at moments notice to sit for tea/coffee with them. It's going to take it's toll on you - make no doubt about that - but for what the friendship is worth on the other side of this, nothing can ever repay.

DON'T ring the helplines yourself - that is to destroy a trust, suggest it politely - but your friend must be the one to take that step. Seek advice yourself from them but don't give them her number for the same reason.

Somethings in Life Emily you may be able to help - and some you will not, this is one where an old adage is useful - when you were born - you were given two ears and one mouth - so you can listen twice as much as you speak.

Be there for her - let her talk,talk and talk - you just have to listen !

Diesel

PS - I do speak from experience

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 10:09 PM

Emily & Rick, I do not believe it is a fatal flaw that causes troubled people to be attracted to you. You are who they have reached out to at their lowest point. It is a gift to be able to really listen. You offer these individuals compassion & understanding. This is of great service.

BB

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Áine
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 09:52 PM

Dear emily,

I'm so sad to hear what your friend and yourself are going through. I've thought about this since I saw your message, trying to come up with the 'perfect' answer. But, there is none. The best thing that can be said at this point is that she is still 'talking' about suicide. When/if she suddenly stops talking about it, that is when you should really worry and not leave her alone, if at all possible. As long as she's still 'talking' about it, she's still open to input from you and other people she's sharing these thoughts with.

First thing I would advise you to do is to call the suicide prevention number (if you have one) in your telephone directory. If one is not listed, call the operator and ask for the nearest one near you. Talk to the folks there, explain the situation with your friend, and ask them what they would suggest.

If you do not have access to a suicide prevention line, then I would call the psychologists/psychiatrists that are listed in the yellow pages. Tell them you are trying to find some way to help your friend -- I'm sure that they will be able to steer you in the right direction.

If you have a personal physician, call him or her and ask them if they can refer you to someone or some place that can help you.

Lastly, and I speak from personal experience here, you may have to try some 'tough love' with your friend. I have lost two people that I loved very much through suicide. I not only felt sad and bewildered; I also felt very, very, angry. And I am still angry with them. The grief that I had to experience did not come by accident or natural causes, it came from their own actions, and to this day, it still pisses me off. I don't know how many times I wish I could sit the two of them down in front of me and let them know how pissed off I really am -- and how many times I wish I had had the opportunity to tell them how their actions would make me feel before they did what they did.

If you've been a sympathetic ear for your friend, listening to her talk about suicide and the different ways she could off herself, perhaps it's time she listened to you for a change. Tell her how you would feel -- not only about yourself, but also about her -- if she carried out her plans. It just might be a light at the end of the tunnel for her and a reason to keep on trying and to get some help in doing so.

Remember, dear emily, you can only do so much. If your friend still refuses to seek help and accomplishes her sorrowful task, it is not your fault. Love her and try to help her, but also realize that in the end, the choice to live or die rests in the hands of each individual.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 09:50 PM

Dear Emily. What you must be going through! I've had five friends suicide over the years...Three of them in under a year. You can imagine how totally useless I felt, being unable to prevent these losses. For a while I tried to figure out what was the fatal flaw within me that attracted me to (and vice-versa) people who were that troubled. I at least felt that if I could have seen any one of these people the day before they acted, perhaps I could have said something that would have changed their situation.
When I was in my twenties, most of my friends were very regular drug users and pretty heavy drinkers, and it often became my role to "talk people down" from bad acid trips, or help them "walk off" a coke or heroin overdose. (a hospital would have been out of the question in those days due to the drug laws) I got used to saying the kind of things that would ease their fears and generally making them feel that they were in "safe hands". Perhaps you're a bit like that. If so, this is going to really hurt if she follows through.
There are a lot of folks (perhaps even some in our Mudcat group) who for whatever reason see the end of this year as hugely symbolic and this has probably become a great burden to them. I doubt that any logical argument about arbitrary calenders, or stuff like that is going to change their feeling that somehow their passing must be connected to this time.
I don't think you can help your friend anymore than you have already. If she wants to decide whether "to be or not to be" that will inevitably be her decision alone, and if her decision is to leave, try to have respect for her choice along with the sadness you'll surely feel. As you may know, I don't participate in the "group consciousness" threads (It just isn't my reality) but should you ever want to talk, my e-mail is over at Bbc's resources (I'd blue clicky but I'm afraid I'd fuck it up) or give me a call at 416-690-8697. I'm a good listener.
Love

Rick

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 09:09 PM

I am both clinically depressed, and hypoglycemic. its a deadly combo. I must stay away from sugar, and remember to take my meds. One thing that has been of great help to me is THE MUDCAT. I now have a family of people who understand my need for, and love of folk music. Check out my thread, I'M OUTTA HERE. I cant tell you how much those responses mean to me. My advice..hold her, cry with her..tell her how much you would miss her. You know what you needed back then..give her the same. Reason will not work. When I am depressed, the last thing I want to hear is logic. How can I go and cut down a tree, when I dont give a damn about anything?

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Benjamin
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 08:59 PM

A good friend of mine's friend was on suicide watch for a while. He couldn't be alone - ever.

If she has no reason to live, no hope for a future, she will remain suicidal. She is going to need to something to live for, a reason for living. Drugs aren't a reason. From my experience, if she is get over suicidal feelings, she is probably going to need a dramastic change! There is no easy way to help.

This is really all I can say. I'm sorry you have to go through this!

BMW

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 08:57 PM

Right Charles

Emily, I'm not sure what to suggest for your friend but I can see you are being a concerned loving friend and that is the greatest gift you can offer someone.
I'm quite sure more helpful suggestions will be posted this evening.

BB

Subject: RE: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 08:40 PM

Emily, is she a musician? Steve Martin, on one of his first albums, said that every child when born should be issued a banjo. I'd echo that, but it takes years of practice (or Rick Fielding as a teacher and a few months of lots of practice--right, Bonnie?) to get to the point where it really helps--but a good C harmonica and a David Harp or John Gindick intro to harmonica and she can be playing the blues in three minutes (that's what David Harp says--and demonstrates). The harmonica is so great at making wailing sounds that it sucks the wail right out of your soul. Also, it requires a good deal of physical exertion--deep breathing exercises. Once is a period of dark depression I spent three days disassembling a tree with only a pruning saw. Intense exercise of any kind is a great antidote for depression, as is having a positive focus of some kind.* Back to David Harp--he teaches workshops in (in addition to playing the harmonica) using the harmonica as a meditational device.

--seed(CharlesKratz) *Have you a big job, a really big, physical one that would take you and her a few days or weeks to accomplish? Ask her to help you and while you work take frequent healthy noshes: stay away from sugar based foods--my only down times these days are when I've eaten a big breakfast consisting mainly of waffles with lots of syrup on them...I'm fine for a while, but when the sugar is digested (which is a very short time), hypoglycemia kicks in and can trigger nasty depression.

Subject: very much OS: Suicidal Friend
From: emily rain
Date: 29 Dec 99 - 08:09 PM

sorry to add fuel to the music/non-music debate, but you guys are smart and most of you are kind, and i would really like to have your input on this.

i have a friend who talks suicide. she speaks very matter of factly about being unafraid of death and uninterested in life. she describes herself as "hopeless", as in lacking in hope for the future. having been suicidal myself once, i've given her the hard sell on antidepressants and therapy (virtually everything she tells me i can honestly respond "i felt that way too, and the drugs cured it"), but she's at the point now where feeling happy is such foreign concept to her that it seems like too much effort...

she's got a plan, and it's one that will be effective and easy to carry off. if she has the impulse tomorrow, she could be gone. though she says she's felt this way for years, i think her case is an emergency, and i'm very afraid for her.

so what can i do? what can i say? she's an adult, and i can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. i don't have any authority to have her committed, and frankly i don't have a lot of faith in mental hospitals anyway. her lover knows how she feels, and is also at a loss.

have any of you had this experience? what would you say?