Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:57 AM

It's funny, Steve. I never really 'got' poetry until I heard Kipling's work set to music by Peter Bellamy. I then realised I had been listening to bits of poetry all my life without knowing it! I still don't know the difference between good poetry and bad but, yes, you've guessed it, I know what I like :-)

Just popped a couple of my favourite lines on the old number 10 thread. I like things that conjour an image.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:51 AM

And Jim, an audience in the bath with your "rubber dick," eh? I genuinely can't decide whether that was a typo or whether you did it on purpose...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:48 AM

When it comes to penning sophisticated song lyrics, there's obscurantism, there's clever-dickery and there's poetry...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:34 AM

Only a completely non-critical audience, nourished on the watery pap of pop music, could have fallen for such tenth-rate drivel.

If MacColl did indeed say that, and I have no reason to disbelieve the quote from Sing Out!, It is hardly being neutral. It may be of course that he was, as I mentioned earlier, trying to generate friction. If so, I don't know the motivation and it may have been a perfectly valid thing to do at the time.

But this thread is not Ewan MacColl's 50 greatest songs. It is Bob Dylan's. So how about we stick to that?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:01 AM

A mtter of tasrte Jerry
Somw would hold up the Beatles as having achieved afr more (I wouldn't) - others 'The Stones.
The popular repertoire if full of "standards" by Gershwin and Cole Porter, still highly respected across the musical boards and still very sellable - even to me - a trad obsessive
My songs have lasted many centuries without 'arrangement' (adapting via the folk process is hardly that
This has taken place without having the backing od a a £multi-billion music industry to give it the hiss of life or stick it in cryogenics machine when it appears to be flagging
Dylan will only be around while he 'sells' - when that stops and when our generation pops its clogs he will be forgotten

MacColl's attitude to Dylan was simple - I knew him to be completely neutral about his musical abilities because I took the trouble to ask rather than assume
When Lomax came to England he found everybody trying to sound like mid-Atlantic Huddies or Woodies - including Ewan and Bert
He kicked their arses and poionted out that we in Britain had our own treasure troves and demanded to know why they weren't doing something about it
Some people did and it worked - people begabnn siging stuff from their own tradition rathere than doind what Brit's always had and follow the Yanks where their music industry led
Then Dylan exploded on the scene and many took a giant step back wards
Ewan, Bert - even the docile Pete Seeger with his little axe, reacted against this blast from the past strongly, bot because they didn't like what he did, ut they saw him as a threat to everything they fought so hard for      
Theer was no compromise on any side - snigger songwriters were no more welcome in Trad clubs that traddie like me were in their clubs
As far as I can see, that mutual mistrust was fully justifeid by the now totally fragmented folk scene that has little time for the music it was set up to produce

Had the incomers had enough respect for 'the music of the people' to find a new name for a new form of music, we might have coexisted - instead a trickler turned into a hostile takeover with the main loser being 'The People's Voice' which has now been successfully silenced by the evictors
That's what MacColl meant when he said to me in an interview, "I used to thin folk would never die as a performed art, now I think it might, if it falls into the hands of people who neither like nor respect it
The Dylanites feature large among those - hence Ewan's and to some degree my antipathy
INTERESTING VIEW HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:00 AM

I think with his prodgious output there is inevitabley some good and some bad. I am not a critic and don't like to pee on anyones parade so "not my cup of tea" is generally the limit of my comment if I dislike something. I am not against criticism or discussion of peoples works but derogatory phrases aimed at someone's icon can only cause friction. If friction is the aim, then fine but if a meaningful discussion is required we need more comments like "I like this better because..." Dick had the right approach in his post Date: 04 May 20 - 05:21 AM Apart from the throwaway "meaningless mumbo-jumbo" which, while showing his dislike, does not really add anything to the discussion.

In my opinion.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:28 AM

I’ve followed the career and output of many recording artistes over the last few decades, and am aware that most have churned out some second rate and probably unfinished/ unrefined pap in amongst some really good stuff. However, we often have to tolerate the mediocre songs just to find the gems in among. Dylan has certainly churned put some poor stuff in his long career, but I have difficulty thinking of anyone else (apart from Trad Arr of course) with such a high ratio of good songs compared to forgettable ones; whether you can tolerate his sloppy singing and performance style or not, there are not many singer songwriters out there you could even have a top fifty list of songs to argue about anyway.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM

"Normally, I wouldn't comment on the tastes of others, but, as an admirer of MacColl, I have become more than a little tired of someone I knew and worked with, known and admired for twenty years while he was living and, now thirty years after his death, still being dug up for a regular kicking - in my experience, Dylanites are among the worst (something to do with Ewan's refusing to take Bobby's phone call one time)"

Jim, if in fact Dylanites are among the worst MacColl kickers, there may be more to it than any one-time refusal to take a phone call. Here's some of what MacColl had to say about Dylan, in 1965. After denigrating "the present crop of contemporary American song[writers]", he writes:

"" 'But what of Bobby Dylan?' scream the outraged teenagers of all ages. Well I have watched with fascination the meteoric rise of the American idol and I am still unable to see in him anything other than a youth of mediocre talent. Only a completely non-critical audience, nourished on the watery pap of pop music, could have fallen for such tenth-rate drivel. 'But the poetry?' What poetry? The cultivated illiteracy of his topical songs or the embarrassing fourth grade schoolboy attempts at free verse? The latter reminds me of elderly female schoolteachers clad in Greek tunics rolling hoops across lawns at weekend theatre schools."

This appeared in Sing Out in 1965, reprinted in DeTurk & Poulin, eds., The American Folk Scene. It's no excuse for kicking a man thrity years dead, but it suggests that the Dylanites' alleged kicking may have more than a missed phone call behind it.

[Ordinarily, it would be beneath me to draw attention to typographical errors, but I couldn't let this one go by: "Nowadays, I try to avoid discussion of him, but, as far as I am concerned, no public performer is above criticism or comment - if their fans feel they are above and beyond criticism or comment they should confine their activities to their bath and choose only their rubber dick as audience."]

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:21 AM

I've heard you say many times
That you're better 'n no one
And no one is better 'n you
If you really believe that
You know you have
Nothing to win and nothing to lose
typical dylan
however Confucius, a far superior philosopher in my opinion had this to say, which was not meaningless mumbo jumbo
On Ego

Confucius said: "I am not bothered by the fact that I am unknown. I am bothered when I do not know others."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:56 AM

There have been enough examples of Dylan-luvvies exploding when the name of their lord was taken in vain Dave, incliing a moderator going ballistic and telling those not so keen to "get a life" - I thought I'd use the opportunity to set the record straight
Dave's S's "thanks for letting us know" was a pretty widely-aimed comment
I don't wish to prolong this - I suggest, unless they wish to discuss it in more specific
terms, nobody else does
Jim

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:40 AM

When "0.5% trite contributions" was mentioned it was in relation to comments in the Guardian. Not anyone here, unless they were one of the 0.5%. If you don't like Dylan, fine. Lots of people don't. If you don't like Dylan and go on to read articles and threads about him, I don't know what that says about you.

Anyway, back to the subject matter. Bearing in mind I don't know a lot of these songs, I am going to create a Spotify play list of them and work my way through. Of the ones not mentioned on the list but previously mentioned here, I think "For Ramona" is my favourite. If only for the sentiment

I've heard you say many times
That you're better 'n no one
And no one is better 'n you
If you really believe that
You know you have
Nothing to win and nothing to lose

A good philosophy in my opinion :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:20 AM

well said, Jim.
here is an example of a trite dylan song. ballad in plain d.Ballad in Plain D
Bob Dylan
I once loved a girl, her skin it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth, I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister, I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
'Till the tombstones of damage read me no questions but, "Please
What's wrong and what's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure!" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, god damn you, get out!"
And I in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry, I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Bob Dylan
Wass this his mcgonagle phase?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:07 AM

"May I also add that apart from the 0.5% of usual trite contributions "
Normally, I wouldn't comment on the tastes of others, but, as an admirer of MacColl, I have become more than a little tired of someone I knew and worked with, known and admired for twenty years while he was living and , now thirty years after his death, still being dug up for a regular kicking - in my experience, Dylanites are among the worst (something to do with Ewan's refusing to take Bobby's phone call one time)
Among the most regugalr attacks
One of the most regular and superfical attacks on MacColl remain his changing his name - that this is made by Robret zimmermann fans puts it in contest, I think
I tried to like Dylan - I really did - because many of my mates did - I failed miserably
I found his lyrics trite and suprficial and his voice flat and somewhat boring
His using of people as described in Baez's book suggested a somewhat ruthless ladder-climber - his singing songs Civil Rights while refusing to become involved in those important protests at the time, suggested the same

I stopped trying to understand Dylan when he announced his career change from folk to pop - not my bag - yet despite his doing so he is still held up as a folk icon
Nowadays, I try to avoid discussion of him, but, as far as I am concerned, no public performer is above criticism or comment - if their fans feel they are above and beyond criticism or comment they should confine their activities to their bath and choose only their rubber dick as audience
My remarks about how I feel about Dylan where not 'trite' they were how I feel - one and one only song sticks with me after all these years

One of these days I'll dig out the scathing 1960s 2-part analysis on 'Bobby' by the mysterious 'Jack Speeedwell', in Karl Dallas's 'Folk Music' (7. Speedwell Confessions "I Discover Bobbie Dylan's Secret")
If my bland remarks upset his fans, they should cause a major riot :-)
Sorry to interrupt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 02:19 AM

all a matter of opinion

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 03 May 20 - 12:23 PM

Every Grain of Sand is a remarkable piece of writing. I didn't check the list to see if it's there, but if it isn't it should be in the top 20 of his songs.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Tunesmith
Date: 03 May 20 - 12:20 PM

I guess to had to be there. But "Blowin' in the Wind" is the Dylan song that had the greatest impact on society AND, in some sort of greatest list ( but I thought it was 100) "Blowin' in the Wind " came in at 44! Ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 20 - 12:15 PM

"Masters of War"
"It's All Right, Ma"
and "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll"

most of the rest don't move me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 May 20 - 08:11 AM

Come you Masters of Booze,
You who build the big stills
You force us to drink
And make us all ill.
You put a glass in my hand
Make sure I won't run
And you'll never rest
Till I down it in one.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 03 May 20 - 08:06 AM

In Masters of War, surely he was pointing the finger at the leaders only, rather than the foot soldiers following orders, which the Universal Soldier targeted more directly. I’ve never liked Masters anyway, other than an interesting use of Nottaman Town tune, because the lyrics are a bit weak for him. Who Killed Davey Moore is much better, because it cleverly demonstrates that we all have a part to play in such tragedies.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 May 20 - 07:39 AM

The trouble I have with Masters of War is that it puts the blame for war on everybody but oneself.
The true master of war is the person who picks up the gun or drives a tank.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 03 May 20 - 07:10 AM

May I also add that apart from the 0.5% of usual trite contributions (“He can’t write”, “He can’t sing”, “Can’t stand him” – yeah thanks for letting us know) I was totally overwhelmed by the wonderful good nature of the replies, even where they disagreed with original choices, and the supportive attitude of the majority of the posters.
An absolute pleasure to be involved.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 03 May 20 - 06:49 AM

This was published about three weeks ago in the Guardian and at my last time of reading there had been in excess of 1,600 posts to the article, all offering additions to the top fifty at which he had arrived. A general consensus was that even a top 100 would still induce posters demanding why a particular song had not been included.
Personally I was perplexed as to why "Lilly, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts" didn't find a place; although in Petridis' defence he did state that any track from "Blood on the Tracks" could be included in the top 50.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: gillymor
Date: 03 May 20 - 06:35 AM

Some more that I would wedge into any top 50 list-

You Ain't Going Nowhere
Tombstone Blues
Farewell Angelina
You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome
When the Ship Comes in
To Ramona
Buckets of Rain
Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues
Million Dollar Bash
Seven Curses

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:50 AM

No1 Masters of War
No 50 Masters of War
Can't think of anything in between
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: gillymor
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:23 AM

No "It Takes a lot too Laugh,It takes a Train to Cry", "Tonight I'll be Staying Here with You","Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again", some glaring omissions or maybe I just like long song titles.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 20 - 04:48 AM

50? sorry imo he has only written about 5 good ones

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: DaveRo
Date: 03 May 20 - 04:01 AM

I hadn't heard of a lot of them. But Petridis is 20 years younger than me.

Direct link to the Guardian:

Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs – ranked!

This is one of a series - 'Ranked' - e.g. 'David Bowie's 50 greatest'. Click on the brown 'Ranked' button.

Subject: Bob Dylan's 50 greatest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:12 AM

According to Alexis Petridis in The Guardian

I must own up to not knowing a fair few.

In the authors own words

Let it be known that ranking Bob Dylan’s 50 best songs is not a relaxing diversion to pass one’s lockdown time. It’s a supremely frustrating exercise that can only end with you looking agog at the songs you have left out

Enjoy :-)