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Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!!
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: DougR Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:34 PM GUEST is not a troll. He told us so. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:53 PM Bobert, I have continued some of my thoughts on the other political thread going right now but I agree with you that high visibility anti-war activities may be dangerous in terms of one's own personal freedom in this country right now. This thought also frightens me a great deal. BTW, I was one of the women who broke off from SDS in Ann Arbor to create more active women only activism activities and one of the first things I did was agitate for, start, design, and then take the very first "Women in Social Work" course at the University of Michigan. My most recent high visibility work has been a while back. It was a piece of research on HIV/AIDS knowledge which paved the way for AIDS curriculum in graduate schools of Social Work across the country in 1989. It is referenced all over the web in HIV/AIDS research but we never published it, only gave the paper in Las Vegas at CSWE. I didn't go. I let the famous social workers do it!I am definitely the low profile type. I would like to meet you sometime! love and peace hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:20 PM Oh go to hell DougR. I'm not a troll, so stop the pot shots at me, and get back to the topic at hand, which you, Bobert, and Big Mick have decided to hijack. My identity isn't the important issue, except to lame ass idiots like yourself, who feel more comfortable attacking individuals, than debating the issues. Why? Because you have no solid information with which to back up your crazy claims. You are nothing more than a spoiler windbag, full of hot air. Stuff a sock in it, and let us discuss the issue without making ME the subject of the thread.
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: DougR Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM Bobert: I assume it has never occurred to you that the U.S. population you refer to might be right ...and you and those who agree with your view, might be wrong. Art: Yep, I totally appreciate the fact that GUEST is an accomplished and talented troll. Mick, my friend, I'm afraid you might have got snagged. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM That would be very good Big Mick, because I'm frankly sick and tired of your & Boberts dimestore psychology attempts to analyze me, and prayers to save my sorry ass soul. Harpgirl--you go girl. I think your idea is dead brill, and you certainly have your work cut out for you. But if your "audience" is to be mostly military, I'd downplay associations with the peace movement. There are PLENTY of military people who will support you, so long as you aren't associated with the hardcore nuns and priests who go to jail for civil disobedience. My daughter's h.s. math teacher is a really dead on guy who saw combat in the Gulf War (and there aren't that many of them, despite the common myths surrounding the military in that war). He isn't the least bit academic or intellectual--more working class union family background. But man, does he know the score about the ways both #41's war & #43's war was being marketed and sold for mass consumption. But he is likely more the exception than the rule nowadays among military folks. I don't know, because I'm not as involved with military folk as I was many years back when I first started organizing. There may be a lot more of them who really are against what is now being sold as the fait accompli war against Iraq scenario. After all, they and their kids are the ones who end up doing the fighting. I think at the officer level of the ranks, there is much more division over whether to go to war with Iraq, because they are looking at Afghanistan right now and going "oh shit--they want to broaden the war, which means a muddying of the mission." I don't know how much of an epiphany the enlisted have had in this regard yet. Like that Chinese curse, we do certainly seem to be living in interesting times, don't we? |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:04 PM Yeah, Harpgirl, I agree with you that the current adminstration is having its way, and unfortunately its way has on top of its list, a war with Iraq. I do find it hard to believe that the right wingers have so manipulated the US population thru gadgets, debt, misinformation and fear that there is not a groundswell of folks coming out and saying, "Hell no! We won't go!" What's it gonna take? Lots of loss of life and another lesson that war solves nothing, especially in these times with a world economy and most everyone on the planet tribalized? I have reaqd many of the links that have been provided in this thread and have joined some of these organizations but I am concerned that not enough folks will satnd up and be counted this time because of the fear that results when one sees just how willing the Ameican people are to let the right wingers strip away one freedom after another in the name of security when security of the nation is so threatned by the loss of freedom. I will say this, Harpgirl, it is time restart this thread and leave some of the personal issues behind us so that the information is not so disrupted. It is the most imporatant thing happening in the US right now and needs to be unencumbered. It's your thred so I'm not going to be the one to redirect it but would recommend it being redirected. Just my opinion. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:34 AM Sorry, Harpgirl. I will refrain from anymore and get back to the topic at hand. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:28 AM Hi GUEST. I did truly intend for this question to lead me to more information about any current anti-war action with regard to the Iraqi/American war, which seems imminent to me and frightens me a great deal when I allow myself to think about it. Moreoever, my active duty contacts and RC activities aimed at addressing mass casualties make me worry for the fate of my own nineteen year old son, who is in college now. It is my sincere wish that this conversation redirect itself to personal issues associated with the possibility of another more serious US involvement in War. One of the things I did during the Gulf War was a small workshop with Charles Figley,(a good friend) for the families of active duty service personnel (about one hundred people locally). It quickly became very personal and taught me much more than I offered myself, in a way. I am deciding that my best use of resources with regard to this possible new war might be in terms of large scale workshops along the same lines. I do feel that my gifts lie in small group and individual communication about those issues which most impact my fellow human beings in the north florida piney woods. Thank you all for the sincere input. And garg, I wish school would get back in session. You have entirely too much free time, at the moment, I think!!!! love and peace hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM Listen to yourself, step back, breathe, and listen to yourself. You are so lost in your bitterness that you refuse to read what is said. It seems to me that you have set your walls so firmly, created your own reality, that you don't even "hear" what is said. I pointed out in my last post that we in fact do get nasty, do have issues.......because we are a "community". Interaction always produces this. But we get over it because our intent is different. for some reason you have got yourself to a place that the disruption and pointing out what is wrong with all of us is the important thing. Usually this happens when someone doesn't want others looking to closely at them. That is why you don't really read what others have posted, ignoring the reality so that your arguments will still stand. That is why you use multiple identities, to try and keep confusion going do no one can see you. I wish you would stop and just post. I can tell from the things you are passionate about that you and I and others would have much in common. That doesn't mean we wouldn't disagree, as passionate as you seem to be I can guarantee that there would be vigorous debate. But it doesn't mean anything personal. It is just the debate. Anyone in academia knows that. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:10 AM Yah sure, all you Catters never get catty. Yah sure, all you Catters never get nasty. Yah sure, all you Catters pray for the souls of lost anon. guests. Yah sure, all you Catters are exemplary examples of how to play nicely with others. Yah sure. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:09 AM Denial is the chosen medication for those that don't believe they are ill. I hope you will one day wake up and see that it is in your mind. Now............back to the discussion. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:22 AM Something Bi-Polar is wrong within this thread too much seratonin to the brain...... cut back the meds during the summer soltice.....wait for the equinox!!!!
abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
font color=orange>abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT, abort, Abort, ABORT
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:23 PM GUEST, Friend of our guest: Self imposed alienation is not aspiration but masturbation. There are other choices. The stove is hot. Touch it or touch it not... Yeah, we all have choices.... Peace Bobert
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,Friend of Our Guest Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:31 PM Posers and barking guard dogs. That is a good representation.
Given the bitterness spewed across this thread the Shadow (and all the rest of us) now know what evil lurks in the hearts of men, women and micks. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:15 PM I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's too late. It's a done deal. The fix is in. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: artbrooks Date: 05 Aug 02 - 08:16 PM Which war are we supposed to be "anti" this week? The Israeli war to suppress the legitimite national aspirations of the Palestinian people? The war that the Palestinian militants have chosen to direct toward Israeli civilians rather than against soldiers that can fight back? The war being waged by Columbian rebels/drug lords against the basic concept of a democratic election? The war in Afganistan between the new Afgan government and its Western allies against the remnants of the Taliban and Al Quaida (and picking up on a few old scores at the same time)? Pick up the newspaper or tune in the news program of your choice and take your pick. BTW, you all do appreciate that ANON.GUEST, regardless of the validity of his/her/its Internet research and anti-war activist credentials, is essentially nothing but a TROLL? |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: kendall Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM In 1965 I was part of the establishment, a Barry Goldwater republican, and, almost a John Bircher! My God! I can't believe that was me! I remember thinking, "If these idiots want peace, why the hell are they throwing rocks at men with guns"? For those who know some history, this is almost exactly what happened at the so called "Boston Massacre" History really does repeat itself, or as the wise say, the past is prolog. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM GUEST: The crucifixtion you feel is pure "fixtion", my friend. There is no one here that wants to harm you, figuratively or literally. Though my motivations have been pure, I'm sorry that I have brought you any level of discomfort or pain. It was not my intent. I can think of times when someone took the time to pull me aside and help me thru the hard times and I was hoping to do the same for you. This, my friend, is from the heart. I will keep you in my prayers and ask God to work hard to break thru to the real GUEST and help you through this angry time of your life. There's so much more. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 05 Aug 02 - 07:14 PM Ah, so now it is crucifixtion you are after, eh guard dogs? Ye guardians of Mudcat orthodoxy do yourselves so proud. Yet, I do continue to refuse to repent and return to the fold, don't I? Makes you wonder, don't it? Which said wondering leaves all the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Mudcat Faith all sorts of colors of the rainbow of rage. An apoplexy on all your houses, I say. :) |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 02 - 02:52 PM What Big Mick said, GUEST. No I'm sure you are recoiled to react but, hey, re-read what he wrote. If you don't look for hate or anger in his post you won't find it. I only read love and caring, my friend. Everyone goes through stuff that can effect us, if we allow it, in a manner that makes us less friendly, less effective and less pursuasive. You're are a smart person with a lot to bring to the table but this ain't the 60's and we don't have to burn stuff up to get attention. That style just sets the cause back a few steps. In the 60's during Kent St. we had infiltrators in our anit-war group, the Radical Student Union (RSU) who were preaching hate and violence. No one knew them and their ideas didnnot take hold within our membership, but to this very day I believe they were governemnt plants. Yeah, who had the most to gain during Kent St. if the students blew stuff up? Not the cause, that's for sure. The Who says it best, We will not be fooled again!" So I'z here to say that if ya want to yell and scream, save it for the bad guys... Kat, big Mick and I aren't them, GUEST. Argue as forcefully as you like. I sure have. But keep it about ideas and not personal. And, no I'm not condoning, as I have said, Kat's "childish" remark but compared to your reaction, it was a day in the park... And, lastly, GUEST, you may have gotten off the path but I love you, brother or sister, you are on the right side of the cause. Bbobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Big Mick Date: 05 Aug 02 - 10:20 AM You tickle me with the way you try to set a predicate............and even if someone doesn't bite on it you just go on as if they did. Once again your self view doesn't match what is happening. First off, let me say that your sites were well researched but the fact that you know how to cite them only testifies to your academic background, not your activism. Thus, based on your writings above, I have every reason to suggest the same things about you that you suggest about Bobert. You claim that you have been at it since 1970, but you cite nothing as evidence. Bobert gave specifics. When I factor in your record in trying to do all you can to discredit the site and the folks that come here on a regular basis, I must tell you that I prefer the Boberts of the world. As a person who has done much of the street level work for many causes including this one over the years (and no, I won't debate my credentials with you) I have seen many who can cite this stuff, but I prefer to work with the men and the women who roll up their sleeves and get to work. Now.........back to your tactic on the predicate. I set you up. Anyone who reads these threads regularly knows two things about my relationship with both kat and Harpgirl. I think highly of both of them. They have both contributed much over the years, of value to this place. Unlike you, their goal is to be a part of the community and contribute positively to it. The second thing you would know about our relationships is that we often tangle. There are things we just don't agree on. I never defended kat on this one, as I thought she was guilty of what you have charged. She and I just got into it a week ago or so because she did the same to me, IMO. BUT, I also know that that is just our kat just as she knows things about me. So I just let it pass. Our motives aren't to disparage the place and players, we just argue as friends do. Yours, on the other hand, are much more transparent. The way you reacted to her flip remark was way over the top. Ever ask yourself why you do this? What happened to you? Why such bitterness about this place? Why the many handles, male and female? Who did what to you to turn you into this self righteous, martyr? Come on down off the cross. If it was me that set you down the path, tell me what it was. You are so cranky, that I can only deduce that you are just a bitter person who has built such resentment that you just can't see what you have become. Obviously you weren't always this way, given the things that you seem to discuss with intensity. I sure wish you would examine this, as you obviously have much to contribute, but as it is you are just nasty. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:14 AM I'm sure Fellowship of Reconciliation supporters will sleep better at night, knowing that the Mudcat members (many of whom claim to be dedicated to "peace") think they are "legit". Even though not one of the aforementioned, self-proclaimed "peace activists" had ever heard of them. For those of you who can't be bothered with actually going to the websites of the main organizations active in the national peace movement, let me just say that the majority of them have a history of activism that dates back to World War I. As usual here in Mudcat, none of this information will change minds though, will it? Because this non-argument had nothing to do with actual facts surrounding peace activism. It was all about Mudcat guard dogs coming to the rescue of a member they (wrongly) felt was being attacked by an anonymous poster. Any lively and informative discussions here where criticism of a member's position by (usually) an anon guest, sets off all the alarm bells, and the guard dogs attack. Too bad people are really that petty, because it sure as hell gets in the way of many an otherwise good discussion in the forum. But what the hell--c'est la guerre. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Aug 02 - 01:05 AM PAX Excerpt ( concluding paragraph )
By Oliver Wendel Holmes
Library Edition – The Wit and Humor of America – vol III – Funk and Wagnell's Company 1907
Holmes is reflecting upon people he dislikes and concludes: There is one blameless person whom I can not love and have no excuse for hating. It is the innocent fellow-creature, otherwise inoffensive to me, whom I find I have involuntarily joined on turning a corner. I suppose the Mississippi, which was flowing quietly along, minding its own business, hates the Missouri for coming into it all at once with its muddy stream. I suppose the Missouri in like manner hates the Mississippi for diluting with its limpid, but insipid current the rich reminiscences of the varied soils through which its own stream has wandered. I will not compare myself to the clear of the turbid current. But I will own that my heart sinks when I find all of a sudden I am in for corner confluence, and I cease loving my neighbor as myself until I can get away from him.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 05 Aug 02 - 12:04 AM ...okay garg, whatever....my disabilities aren't immediately visible though , and they mostly cause other people pain....hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Big Mick Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:15 PM Well done, Bobert! The self righteous poster who uses many names has an arrogance that is almost palpable. I thought she was particularly patronizing when Harpgirl was informed what a good scout she was to be able to hold her own with her, even ending it with "not an easy thing to do, I might add". A giant in her own mind. Must be she swims in shallow water. Harpgirl has shown many times, that she is capable of holding her own and besting those that are unprepared. At any rate, GUEST's sites check out and many are very good. Too bad that this person of many personna's can't settle on one and just weigh in. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:26 PM Genuinely, sorry about the disabilities and desire a speedy removal from your pain.
Read your posting thru several times....you've tagged the wrong gargoyle's tail...I don't understand the ramble.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 04 Aug 02 - 04:05 PM GUEST: Not that getting into a resume swapping contest with you, which is counter productive, but in the fall of 1965, I co-founded the first leftest student group at what was Richmond Professional Institute (RPI0 which is now Virgibia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Va. The name of the organization was Students for Individyal Rights (SIR) and in the spring of 1966, long before it bacame fashionable to speak out against the Viet Nam war we organized the first anit-wae demonstration ever held in the city called the "Puppy Burn". Yep we ran off poster on a hand crank printer and had had over a 1000 folks show up incensed that we were going to burn a puppy. You guessed it. No puppy. But we were there with thousands of leaflets, and speakers and a couple of right thinking (not right wing) clergy folk to add creditbility. Well, that was Chapter 1 and the beat goes on. I'm not going to bore you with SDS, SOC, M-LAP, R-CAP, SCLC, et al but to round out my activism you may research a memorial service that I organized from scratch less than 2 years ago for black laborers who were buried in the Churchill Tunnel collapse of 1925, after the white engineers bofy was recovered. Yes, 75 years later the racist government of the City of Richmond has never made any attempt to honor those men of color. If you have any interest in that story you'll find it if you find the Richmond Times Dispatch. It was covered by Mark Holmhberg. With these things stated, GUEST, I'm going back to posting to the spirit of the thread. Again, if you have additional interests in the many chapters between 1965 and the civil rights memorial or what I am currnetly involved with then you'll have to PM me with an email address... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM one more thing and then I'll shut up. As for our mudcatters being posers, Gargoyle...you were a boyscout for cripe's sake, so being a gargoyle in mudcat is your pose! You of all people should be aware that many of our hawkish and dovish folkies and artistic types are disabled and are not likely to venture far from their homes to make their true beliefs known. This forum provides an outlet for their views! Oh, and you mean you didn't drink beer at the hashes when you were the Songmeister? What about all those marches with the Philmont Rangers? You must have given up beer lately...love and peace hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 04 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM Interesting point, GUEST. I don't depend primarily for my livelihood upon my contractual agreement with Champus/Tricare, however. It's only one of many contractual agreements I maintain. I hadn't thought about what impact high visibility peace activism might have on the rest of my work activities. Knowing myself, if I ever do become more visible in peace activism, I won't give a flip about how it will affect my contractual work.... BTW troll, I think sharing your vast storehouse of musical/cultural knowledge with folks on the other side of the world is very important. The more we try to understand one another's culture, the better we might be able to get along. If you're lonely over there, find masato sakurai. He has certainly contributed to international understanding with his knowledge of american folk music and culture! Or maybe you have met one another already! peace, hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:16 AM "Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement." Hi GUEST. Yes you do. I was pretty young and the names Tommy Douglas, Therese Casgrain, and the CCF, may not much to you if you're not Canadian....but thanks to my parents who encouraged me to look listen and read, and NEVER swallow ANY information without investigating it to the best of my ability, my involvement started early. Hypocracy among certain leaders has occasionally caused me to waver though. Interesting thread. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:14 AM It can be very difficult to do anti-war/peace organizing when your livelihood depends upon serving communities with a strong military presence. I don't know how much of that is the case for you in Tallahassee. You have said elsewhere that you work with military families in your social work, so I'm assuming you have a client base rooted in the military communities (active and retired I'd guess) of northern Fla. In my mind, social work is activism of one sort. And there are many. But I understand that "coming out" as a peace activist could work against your professional standing, because peace activists are almost always viewed as the enemy by military people and their families. Of course, that doesn't mean that peace activism is non-existent in communities where military bases are located. That was my first apprenticeship as a full time peace and justice activist, in fact. There was a tremendous amount of misinformation, urban myth and fear about us in the military community. It was so bad where I was living, that military folk had a very difficult time reconciling me as a peace activist. Military folk who worked with me and knew me socially found it almost impossible to believe I was one of "those people." It was quite difficult for them to reconcile themselves to the fact that they were in the presence of a social justice activist opposed to their military mission, who they found to be quite a normal, likeable human being. They really thought I should be foaming at the mouth, and committing dastardly secret deeds that would destroy the US. :) |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: van lingle Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:57 AM Key to preventing this Iraqi war that Bush Jr. has been lobbying for for some time now is to provide him with a new congress at the mid-terms that won't put up with this nonsense. vl |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM ...oh and GUEST, I am not inclined to feel humiliation when I don't know something; which happens quite often, I might add, both in terms of music and with regard to politics and a host of other topics. I value to breadth and depth of knowledge available to me in this "chat room" on all the subjects we cover in the course of our conversations. I'm only upset when I've inadvertantly offended folks I care about and I see that I have caused them distress, even when they deny it. (But it's harder to respond sincerely when that happens, I find.) As for activism, my thirty years of social work activity only qualify me as an expert in one small place in the universe, in the piney woods of north florida....but Ann Arbor in the sixties has shaped my life irrevocably...peace...hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: harpgirl Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:40 AM I am truly sorry if I caused you discomfort, Jon. I only meant to be cynical, a part of my real self and one of the ways I view the world. BTW, we missed you at the FFF and I gave Lisa a picture of you, Joe Offer, Gail K., and Uncle Ray that I took in 99' when we were jamming. I hope you get to see it. Please accept my apologies, I didn't meant to disparage your work at Disney in Japan in any way. I am quite envious of such a fun opportunity, troll...peace...hg |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 04 Aug 02 - 09:36 AM A little deeper digging, and I find out that International ANSWER Coalition is in fact, Ramsey Clark's(former AG)post-9/11 organization. He is founder of the International Action Center, website found here: http://www.iacenter.org/ The reason why International ANSWER wasn't showing up on many of the highly visible peace organizations' websites is due to a bit of political in-fighting. It looks to me as if there was a bit of a split over the April 20th Coalition's decision to hold their main march on Washington the same day as ANSWER had planned theirs. It got sorted out, as these things usually do, by everyone coming together and deciding to hold their marches together. So, I don't know how the information that the website provided by harpgirl is run by Ramsey Clark will influence people's opinions of the organization one way or the other. He is a very strong supporter of the Palestinian cause (A Good Thing, IMO), but he has made some very controversial choices about the people he has chosen to defend over the years, but that is par for the course for famous lawyers. So harpgirl--you did good finding this website, it is perfectly legitimate. I apologize for causing you consternation, and I hope my leaping in with information casting doubt on your choice of organizations hasn't resulted in you second guessing your own judgment. You did very well holding your own with me (not an easy thing to do, I might add). If you are going to become involved in activist work, you will need that skill. Again, best of luck finding your way. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Troll Date: 04 Aug 02 - 07:51 AM Harpgirl, I am still in Japan and will be here until at least Nov.,27, 2002 unless my contract gets extended. When I sing "Roll the Old Chariots", I sing "A drop of Nelsons blood..." This is not a gig in which I feel that I should express any political sentiment of any stripe. For one thing, most of my listeners wouldn't understand me and those did understand would be offended. I am employed to provide atmosphere and entertainment, not political commentary. If this menas that I'm no longer entitled to call myself a folksinger, so be it. I've been singing all my life and I don't need a label to continue doing that. I realize that your post was probably just a bit of humor but it struck me in a funny way. Gargoyle, good comments. troll |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:32 AM GUEST - lighten up .... I've been hangin round here for a while...and most of these FOLK are posers...not all of them...but many of them...particularly the ones you are currently doing battle with........you have called their bluff...........save your energy....
If they were legit in the areas of folk AND peace...they would acknowledge...Let there be peace on earth....and let it begin with me.
I on the other hand am a capitalist with heavily vested interests in the war-industry...but won't touch tobacco or liquor for ethical reasons.
Carry on...its good to have you around.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:43 PM Really, Bobert? You were a peace activist in 1965? Which "front line" were you working on? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't know of a single Mudcatter who has roots that deep or old in the peace movement. As I said, accurate information is much more important than being right. I'm still sceptical about your claims, mind you. Anyone with roots that deep in the peace movement would immediately recognize the names of the organizations I've cited for harpgirl, allowing as they all go back even further than you do in the movement. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear what your life as an activist has been about. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: DougR Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:40 PM Before I go, though, LEJ, do you suppose he would know which end of the rifle goes against his shoulder? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: DougR Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:38 PM Yep, Bobert, I agree with you statement. You never have attacked anyone on a personal basis that I know of. If you were going to, it certainly would have been me, I would think, and you haven't. I'll skip on out of this thread now so that you anti-whatevers can go on about your business. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: kendall Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:07 PM Gargoyl, just to get some balance here, that beady eyed phoney also avoided the draft by joining the Texas National guard; then not showing up for training, and now, he has the balls to wear that flight jacket. Bush needs enemies to stay in office, but, when the body bags start coming home, I'm going to worry about my granson who is 18 on the 7th. Remember, we will be in this one alone. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 02 - 04:48 PM Ain't really into testimonials, GUEST, but when you came into activism, I had been on the front lines for 5 years. And I confess to not even looked at yopur links because there were so many of them, I just skimmed your post with intentions of reading them later tonight, which I will. Gotta go cut the grass. Later Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 02 - 03:15 PM Bobert, I've been doing peace and justice work since 1970. Let me just say that if you are, as you claim to be here in Mudcat, a peace activist, I find it pretty shocking that you would have to "investigate and read about" the major social justice organizations of the Catholic, Quaker, Jewish, and Protestant denominations. But hey--what do I know? I'm just anonymous, so nothing I say can be legitimate to paranoid Mudcat members. And as to MoveOn: MoveOn claims to be a nonprofit, and says it uses the The San Francisco Foundation Community Initiative Fund as it's sponsor. The San Francisco Foundation website can be found here: http://www.sff.org/ It has never granted monies to an organization called MoveOn, but it doesn't have to if all they are doing is acting as fiscal sponsor. However, there is no list of organizations it provides fiscal sponsorship for. It appears this group has raised some serious bucks, though, so I doubt they need to apply for grants to stay in business. The founders are software developers from Silicon Valley, and seem to be working for/with the Democratic Party in the San Francisco Bay area. The organization doesn't show up at Guidestar, which means it doesn't file IRS Form 990 or 990EZ (the tax return forms for nonprofits). However, it is possible that the SFF files taxes on it's behalf as it's fiscal sponsor. The reason why I mention all this, is that what often happens with organizations like this (it was founded as a de facto Democratic Party "response" to the Clinton/Lewinsky affair) which begin life as single issue organizations, is that they can lose effectiveness over time. Also, some of you might want to know that this organization had some clout with the California Dems, and undertook a pretty considerable anti-Green Party and pro-Gore/anti-Nader campaign in the last election. The only activity of this organization I found any evidence of after their initial petition campaign online was emails/messages from the founder, Wes Boyd (as recently as June 2002). But beyond that, they seem to have dropped off the activist radar as an organization. Looks to me like the org founders are still active in Dem Party interests in that way, but not much beyond that. They have a PAC contribution site, which funnels money to endangered Dem Party candidates. It seems they still collect money to donate to Democratic Party candidates of their choice, and perhaps may still be gathering on-line petitions and email campaigns, but they aren't doing anything I, as an activist, would consider to be beyond pure partisan party politics. Of course, if Dem Party politics is what you are all about, hey--crack open the checkbook, sign their petitions to be sent to (and ignored by Congress), and continue spouting off on in internet forums, just like the MoveOn folks do! I guess that IS Dem Party loyals idea of grassroots activism, even if some of us who do non-partisan activist work see it as protecting your own self-interests by supporting your personal status quo (ie the Democratic Party). And just for DougR, here is some balance, the Daily Pundit website: http://www.dailypundit.com/archives/002812.php So, before anyone rushes off to the secure donations website for MoveOn, I suggest doing a bit more homework, to see how active this organization truly is. I could find no other information on the organization after 1999 in my Internet searches. And I welcome being proved wrong, BTW. Accurate information is always better than proving one's self right (or just being self-righteous as the case may be). |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:57 PM GUEST: Hope this doesn't ruin your day, but I'm not at "pissed off" here. Even during some of my more memorable rants here in the Catbox, I have confined whatever "pissed-offedness" to policies and policy makers who I feel are not moving the country and planet toward a saner level of coexistence. My friend, DougR, who is at the opposite end of the politiacl spectrum, would probably attest to the fact that personal attacks are not my style. Yeah, we've been known around the Catbox to disagree but we don't go calling each other names nor do we pass judgement on each other as people. But, yep, we do disagree as most folks around here know. Now, GUEST, as for the links you have been kind enough to share with us, I am planning on spending time tonight at home delving into them. I am at work and am not able to do much more than throw in a few thoughts here and there between my customers. I usually save my serios reading for home where there are no interuptions. So as to not tie up this thread, if you'd like you can send me a PM with your email adress and I'll give you my impressions of those links directly. Lastly, I think you have me confused with Phil Oaks (or whoever it was) "Liberal", GUEST. Ain't me. Liberals drive Volvos with Gore/Lieberman bumperstckers. I drive a beat to crap Toyota or my 63 Volkswagen with "Developers Don't Go To Hell, They Build it Here" and Green Praty bumper stcikers. And lastly, Part 2, Guest. At least on this thread, I'm going to give the rest of the Catfolk a break and not continue responding specificlly to your posts. And this isn't about being "pissed off" like you think I ma though I am not. It's just out of respect for the importance of this thread. Like I said, PM me if you like and I'll get back with you off to the side, one on one... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM Let me just say that I am every bit as serious about grabbing a rifle and getting in a ditch to defend Israel as Bill Clinton is. I also never inhaled. The site listed by Harpgirl looks awfully pro-Palestinian to me. While I agree the US has been too pro-Israel in past, I'm suspicious. Personally, I hope Saddam agrees to abide by rules mandating international inspection of his facilities, and averts any hostility. He has done so before, and then booted the inspectors out enough times that his good intentions have lost all credibility. Apparently he wants to talk again in the face of impending hostilities. I don't think any conversation should take place without firm consequences of repetition of his previous behavior.
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 02 - 02:23 PM Odd that a "peacenik" such as yourself Bobert, has nothing to say about the organizations I've posted links to--an oversight in your recommendations, perhaps? Or are you, like kat, just to petty to admit when you are wrong, and defer to people who clearly know what they are talking about, despite their choice to remain anonymous? Nah, it was no oversight. You are just pissed off because I won't play along with your "Mudcat nice" game. It is perfectly clear that in the Mudcat, people much prefer talking the talk about peace, to walking the walk. Pretenders, poseurs, and posturers play those games. Not real life activists. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM GUEST: I don't have to cover my boney Wes Ginny butt here because I have consistently preached the same message here in Catsburg since tunneling my way in. The first thread I started was "Department of Peace", which, sure, I'd be willing to compromise here with you and rename it the Department of Anti-War. Okay? Others: Though I have not conducted an investigation of moveon.org nor will I, I think there is some valuable information at this site. I would also urge you all to keep the letters and emails headed toward your representatives and senators in Washington, D.C. so they will know there are a lot of folks who don't agree with the Bush administration's foriegn policy. (And for those who feel compelled to defend Bush by bashing Clinton, forget it. That dog don't hunt no more. Nothing happens in the past and the US is now trying to figure out it's role as super power and not doing too good a job of it, at present...) Peace (Anti-War, for others...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:20 PM I'm doing no such thing kat. And your ignorance about what the true spirit of peace and justice work is all about is showing again. So-called "wars" in your little world of internet music chat sites bear no resemblance to war in the real world, and to suggest that they are somehow comparable is vicious and irresponsible. Maybe you need to spend a lot less time in internet chat forums, and more time serving your fellow human citizens. Try chastising others for giving information about social justice activism here AFTER you get serious about social justice work, kat. Your words ring pretty hollow to me. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: katlaughing Date: 03 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM If you were serious and genuine about the anti-war effort, you'd give it a rest, chalk it up to not posting as clearly as possible, and quit trying to start a war here on the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Join The Current Anti-War Movement:!!!! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM Even the doves are turning hawkish
Associated Press - New York - Friday, June 02, 2002
Former President Clinton, who avoided the Vietnam War, told Jewish supporters in Toronto that he would fight and die to protect Israel if Iraq or Iran ever invaded.
"The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die."
Clinton was accused of ducking the draft during the Vietnam era. He received and induction notice but got a deferment when he promised to participate in an ROTC program. He never jhoined the program. He later withdrew his deferment but drew a lottery number too high to be drafted.
The times they are a changing!
Sincerely, |
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