BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: belter
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

I agree with what Little Hawk said, "Christianity, when embraced by the sane, proposes a loving and forgiving God. So do other monotheistic faiths, when they are held by people who are reasonable and sane."
Reasonable and sane people are not the problem weather or not they believe in god. Unfortunatly, the idea of god becomes a powerful weapon in the hands of the unreasonable, and insane. A weapon that given the chance, they will use to minipulate, and control people, and empower themselves while reasonble and sane people stand by and watch it happen because they seam to be on god's side. After reading what I just wrote, I begin to think the problem is reasonble and sane people.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

"he is an ALL LIBERAL preacher of what he says and does and wants us all to consider him the finale word on anything...especially dealing with GOD!'sooo sad!" tarheel

Tarheel, "LIBERAL" is not a swear word, no matter what you have been told in your church. Liberal, to me, means a spirit that is inclusive in wanting everyone to thrive- whether financially or in education or in health- , wants their country to be responsive to its citizens and respected in the world for reasons other than MIGHT. Perhaps even more important: a LIBERAL wants to be able to have SELF-RESPECT. And if we neglect the poor and the powerless we cannot respect ourselves.

I would go further, Tarheel, and say that if you so misunderstand what Bill Moyers said in that speech - and has said many other times- then in all likelihood you are one of the people he fears and despairs of.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

Bobert, I am not bleeding to death - my taxes are lower than they have been for years. Or, do you mean literally? I feel fine so would you please explain what you meant?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM

Tarheel:

Like you, Moyers is a Christian who considers his faith as his own business. He doesn't argue as an expert on God, and I suspect he is FAR more interested in seeing that you (and everyone else) have the freedom to worship in your own way, unhampered by others' opinions, than he has any interest in interpreting God to man.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: tarheel
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

well...i'll tell you something EBBIE...if i had to choose from what i believe (my faith in God) and what BILL MOYERS preaches,i'll take my chances believing in GOD! since when did bill moyers become an authority on GOD? i've seen moyers on tv for years...and especially the pbs programs he produces and he is an ALL LIBERAL preacher of what he says and does and wants us all to consider him the finale word on anything...especially dealing with GOD!'sooo sad!

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:15 PM

John:

Demagoguery (as traditionally used) implies self-interest. Moyers isn't riding any particularpolitical wagon, he's simply arguing for making the political atmosphere a non-interference zone from religous interest, which by rights and tradition it should be. In fact he is using rhetoric -- NOT demagoguery -- to resist the uinfluence of political demagoguery.

I think far from being a shnook he is an intelligent and caring individual.

Now, I happen to think the same of you, so I urge you to revisit his exposition again and see if it looks any better the second time around.

Individual freedom is far more important than whether he has correctly assessed the interests of particular sub-groups.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM

Though I think Moyers has a chip on his shoulder that he wishes against hope that God would try to knock off -- the God he has long since left behind in a disappointed, angry huff -- I do think that the one truth he presents in the speech is that there are a significant number of those who would consider themselves part of the vague, unorganized "Christian right" who have terribly confused theology with patriotism, civil activism for sanctification, America for Israel.

But he overstates the "religious right's" influence by combining the "christian right's" intent with the government's exploitation of same. Their is little doubt that there are those in the government who empower themselves by exploiting the wishes of the religious right. There's a huge and meaningful gap between what the politicians promise and what they intend to, or even can, deliver.

And he overstates the "religious right's" infuence by careful inclusion of those who do not believe as he says (like me) in the numbers of the hoard, the seeds of paranoia about whom he is enriching and empowering himself. He is a demagogue and, as such, has a huge following of undiscerning (who are very quick to accept his definitions and characterizations of Christinanity without question) who relish his characterization of a Christianity that they would like nothing more than to hate. He feeds 'em the red meat of hatred that he knows they want (and will enrich and empower him). He then steps back and acts "above it all".

Moyers is a schnook.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

John, I realize that your opinion of Bill Moyers does not match mine - to say it mildly- but what is your opinion of the speech itself? Do you agree with any part of it? Strongly disagree? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

I wonder if Moyers believes in Clapton?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:26 AM

Moyers' speech is powerful and persuasive and distills into good, straightforward exposition the most mightmarish aspects of the decline of reason in this nation over the last decade.

I strongly recommend reading the whole thing (link above).

" As I look back on the conflicts and clamor of our boisterous past, one lesson about democracy stands above all others: Bullies - political bullies, economic bullies and religious bullies - cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own. This is never easy; these guys don't fight fair; "Robert's Rules of Order" is not one of their holy texts. But freedom on any front - and especially freedom of conscience - never comes to those who rock and wait, hoping someone else will do the heavy lifting. Christian realism requires us to see the world as it is, without illusions, and then take it on. Christian realism also requires love. But not a sentimental, dreamy love. Reinhold Niebuhr, who taught at Union Theological Seminary and wrestled constantly with applying Christian ethics to political life, put it this way: "When we talk about love we have to become mature or we will become sentimental. Basically love means...being responsible, responsibility to our family, toward our civilization, and now by the pressures of history, toward the universe of humankind."

    Christian realists aren't afraid to love. But just as the Irishman who came upon a brawl in the street and asked, "Is this a private fight or can anyone get in it?" we have to take that love where the action is. Or the world will remain a theatre of war between fundamentalists."

When dogma trumps free choice and individual responsibility, you get a collapsing nation; the USSR demonstrated this in large over fifty years.

The ONLY thing, aside from a wealth of natural resouece, which has given this country any claim to ascendancy among nations has been its assertion that individual freedoms are paramount. As long as we walk that talk, we can survive anything.

Bush's bully boys do not walk that walk, although they are too canny to dispense with the talk altogether.

That is the major crisis of our times, politically and socially.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Pogo
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

I'm sure quite a few politicians believe in God but perhaps the question should be does God believe in politicians? ;)

beware those folks who commit atrocities in the name of anything. beware those people who turn their personal beliefs into an political agenda. They build themselves a golden calf.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 10:19 PM

Actualy, non of this has anything to do with God...

Nuthin' but brass-nuckles politics and the Repubs have it down to a science...

Like, how erlse can one explain the fact that there are lots of olks in the South and Midwest who will vote for a party that is slowly bleeding them to death???

God ain't got nuthin' to with thisw...

Might of fact, I wish that God was this all powerfull fdeller that the Christain Right makes him outt o be 'cause if He were he'd *harvest* Bush and most of his buddies tomorrow....

Yeah, where's this "Rapture" when we need it the most????

Come get him, God... 1600 Pennsylvania Ave... Take him soon,,, Pleeeeeeze!!!

Can't find him? I 'll send a map...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 09:42 PM

The OT God seems like a big guy named Vinnie who carries a metal friend with him--and likes to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 09:39 PM

Little Hawk, I would like your ruminations on the Old Testament God. What Moyers said in that speech does not exaggerate a thing.

As given in the OT, God is very much like Zeus and that crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

The loonies want to tear down the fence to burn their alleged heretics.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 06:36 PM

God is not, and never has been, the exclusive property of the Christian religion...nor of any other religion. Watch out for people who assume He/She is! Such people are exceedingly dangerous.

"One omnipotent God" does not necessarily mean one that meets the lunatic definitions concocted by various religious fanatics...who, truth be told, are merely making up a God in their own image...a God who is vicious, vengeful, judgemental, and insane.

Taosim proposes one Way, the Tao. It is not a Way that judges or punishes anyone...it just functions in a totally coherent manner throughout Creation. Buddhism proposes a way of being also, based on achieving balance between extremes. Vedanta (the religious tradition of India) proposes One Supreme Divine manifesting in the world of duality as many different aspects, each personified by various symbolic gods and goddesses. Christianity, when embraced by the sane, proposes a loving and forgiving God. So do other monotheistic faiths, when they are held by people who are reasonable and sane. The most reasonable people honor ALL faiths and are exclusively attached to none, in my opinion.

To condemn the very idea OF God because some people on this planet hold an insane notion about God is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

People who don't believe in any God at all, after all, are just as capable of committing great atrocities against humanity (for money or power) as people who happen to believe in an insane version of God.

Keep it in mind. The loonies are not all on one side of the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

It's a great address, isn't it! Wish Bill Moyers was 30 years younger than he is. He's been a hero of mine for a long time and I'd like him to live for a long, long time yet.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:19 PM

Also thanks from me.

Two links "Ads by Goooooogle" below the reply box-
Is There A God? "Offering Six Straight Forward Reasons to Believe in God"
and
"Words of the Almighty God "Come and hear God's Voice. If you seek Christ, enter this gate."

Google (and perhaps Mudcat) on the side of theocracy?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:12 PM

Wow, Ebbie, thanks for the link!!

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM

When God enters through the front door of argument, reason leaves through the back.

Subject: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 04:36 PM

At last. (Incidentally I have never understood how Christians are able to make themselves believe that there is one immutable, unchanging, omnipotent God.)

Excerpts:

**After (General William) Boykin had led Americans in a battle against a Somalian warlord he announced: "I know my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his God was an idol." Now Boykin was going about evangelical revivals preaching that America was in a holy war as "a Christian nation" battling Satan and that America's Muslim adversaries will be defeated "only if we come against them in the name of Jesus." For such an hour, America surely needed a godly leader. So General Boykin explained how it was that the candidate who had lost the election in 2000 nonetheless wound up in the White House. President Bush, he said, "was not elected by a majority of the voters - he was appointed by God." Not surprising, instead of being reprimanded for evangelizing while in uniform, General Boykin is now the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. (Just as it isn't surprising that despite his public call for the assassination of a foreign head of state, Pat Robertson's Operation Blessing was one of the first groups to receive taxpayer funds from the President's Faith-Based Initiative for "relief work" on the Gulf Coast.)
    **But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties - the country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is - and they are driving American politics, using God as a a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on.
    **Alas, these "great moral issues" do not include building a moral economy. The Christian Right trumpets charity (as in Faith Based Initiatives) but is silent on social and economic justice. Inequality in America has reached scandalous proportions: a few weeks ago the government acknowledged that while incomes are growing smartly for the first time in years, the primary winners are the top earners - people who receive stocks, bonuses, and other income in addition to wages. The nearly 80 percent of Americans who rely mostly on hourly wages barely maintained their purchasing power. Even as Hurricane Katrina was hitting the Gulf Coast, giving us a stark reminder of how poverty can shove poor people into the abyss, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that last year one million people were added to 36 million already living in poverty. And since l999 the income of the poorest one fifth of Americans has dropped almost nine percent.
    **Let's take a brief detour to Ohio and I'll show you what I am talking about. In recent weeks a movement called the Ohio Restoration Project has been launched to identify and train thousands of "Patriot Pastors" to get out the conservative religious vote next year. According to press reports, the leader of the movement - the senior pastor of a large church in suburban Columbus - casts the 2006 elections as an apocalyptic clash between "the forces of righteousness and the hordes of hell." The fear and loathing in his message is palpable: He denounces public schools that won't teach creationism, require teachers to read the Bible in class, or allow children to pray. He rails against the "secular jihadists" who have "hijacked" America and prevent school kids from learning that Hitler was "an avid evolutionist." He links abortion to children who murder their parents. He blasts the "pagan left" for trying to redefine marriage. He declares that "homosexual rights" will bring "a flood of demonic oppression." On his church website you read that "Reclaiming the teaching of our Christian heritage among America's youth is paramount to a sense of national destiny that God has invested into this nation."
    **One of the prominent allies of the Ohio Restoration Project is a popular televangelist in Columbus who heads a $40 million-a-year ministry that is accessible worldwide via 1,400 TV stations and cable affiliates. Although he describes himself as neither Republican nor Democrat but a "Christocrat" - a gladiator for God marching against "the very hordes of hell in our society" - he nonetheless has been spotted with so many Republican politicians in Washington and elsewhere that he has been publicly described as a"spiritual advisor" to the party. The journalist Marley Greiner has been following his ministry for the organization, FreePress. She writes that because he considers the separation of church and state to be "a lie perpetrated on Americans - especially believers in Jesus Christ" - he identifies himself as a "wall builder" and "wall buster." As a wall builder he will "restore Godly presence in government and culture; as a wall buster he will tear down the church-state wall." He sees the Christian church as a sleeping giant that has the ability and the anointing from God to transform America. The giant is stirring. At a rally in July he proclaimed to a packed house: "Let the Revolution begin!" And the congregation roared back: "Let the Revolution begin!"
    **To save the American Dream, "we desperately need to reaffirm the principle that it is possible to carry out an analysis of social life which rational human beings will recognize as being true, regardless of whether they happen to be women or men, whites or black, straights or gays, employers or employees, Jews or born-again Christians. The alternative is to stand by helplessly as special interest groups tear the United States apart in the name of their "separate realities' or to wait until one of them grows strong enough to force its irrational and subjective brand of reality on all the rest."

The Speech