BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM

You have claimed throughout that Hamas was responsible for the killing
No.
I have claimed that Egypt believes that the tunnels were used.
That is why they closed them straight away, and after months of investigation flooded them.
I did not have to Google up obscure publications.
Reuters 18th Feb.
Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 03:25 AM

"Egypt has declined to identify who attacked them."
Then why have you and your shrinking violet friend claimed throughout this discussion that the killers were the least likely to be involved - Hamas and the Palestinian people, who have nothing whatever to gain from the closure of the tunnels - as has been pointed out already - YOU HAVE INVENTED YOUR ACCUSATIONS OUT OF THIN AIR - AS YOU HAVE THROUGHOUT ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS
"The move surprised and angered Hamas, had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, a fellow Islamist."
Even your own unlinked cut-'n-pastes are giving the same message - Hamas and the Palestinians are the least likely to have attacked the Egyptian soldiers; the greatest beneficiaries of the closures of the tunnels are the Israelis, and attempting to ridicule the idea that Mossad carried out the attack is sheer idiocy - why should such a suggestion be far-fetched - it's not as if Israeli agents are strangers to political assassination, is it?
This is the bit you missed from the article you lifted your c & p from - and the link you omitted.
"(Reuters) - Egypt's campaign to shut down smuggling tunnels running under its border into the Gaza Strip threatens to throw thousands of Palestinians out of work in the Hamas-run enclave. The network of tunnels has been a vital lifeline for Gaza, bringing in an estimated 30 percent of all goods that reach the enclave and circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt for more than seven years."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/18/us-palestinians-tunnels-idUSBRE91H04X20130218
You appear now to be reduced to utter gibberish - you are putting up information that totally destroys your own claims.
You have claimed throughout that Hamas was responsible for the killing YOU AND BB MADE IT ALL UP
You have not produced one single scrap of credible evidence throughout this discussion - Sabra/Shatila; toxic dumps; the treatment of ethnic minorities in Israel, the description of Israel as an Apartheid state - YOUR ENTIRE CASE HAS BEEN BASED ON THE DENIALS OF A STATE THAT HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF THESE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, AND MUCH, MUCH MORE - A WAR CRIMINAL
"I have no information."
Probably the only accurate statement you have made throughout this discussion.
It only remains to be seen how long you can drag out this farce and whether you will try to salvage something from the ashes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 13 - 01:34 AM

Reuters Feb18.
Citing security concerns for the crackdown, Cairo said some of the gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian soldiers near the Gaza border fence in August had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels, an allegation denied by Palestinians.

The move surprised and angered Hamas, had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, a fellow Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:51 PM

I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM - DON'T SUPPOSE WE EVER SHALL THOUGH, SO I SHALL JUST HAVE TO ASSUME THAT, LIKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PUT UP HERE, YOU INVENTED IT

I told you.
I have no information.
Egypt has declined to identify who attacked them.
All we know is that they closed the Gaza tunnels immediately, and seven months later flooded them.
Now why would they do such an unfriendly thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 03:02 PM

"A very balanced piece from Pakistan finds the Muslim Brotherhood not Islamic enough"
An not in the business of defending extremist groups - that seems to be your bag - but Pakistan's statement on the tunnels appears to have been spot on, again, unlike you.
I notice that once again you have avoided the real (your own) issue.
Neither Hamas, nor the Palestinian people were ever implicated in these killings.
As nobody appears to have accused them of being involved, that roumour seems to have been started on this forum by a couple of human rights abuse apologists.
There is not even any solid evidence that the tunnels were ever used by the killers and Egypt is not using that as an excuse for closing them down.
A number of alternative culprits, including Mossad agents have been much further in the frame as suspects for the killings (as Don has suggested right at the beginning, and his latest statement is far more feasible than any put forward by yourself as Israel is by far the greatest beneficiary of the tunnels being closed.
According to information from Egypt itself, it transpires that security isn't even an issue in respect to the closures (that was put on the table ages ago and ignored by our dynamic duo.   
So the whole subject appears to have been an attempted fit-up by the O.P. and his not-very-bright mate to implicate a besieged and impoverished people in a crime in order to justify their continued persecution by a wealthy, powerful and heavily (nuclear) armed regime with an outstanding track-record of human rights abuses and terrorism.
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM - DON'T SUPPOSE WE EVER SHALL THOUGH, SO I SHALL JUST HAVE TO ASSUME THAT, LIKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PUT UP HERE, YOU INVENTED IT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

Judge Richard Goldstone, writing in The New York Times in October 2011, said of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine that "It is not a 'tribunal.' The 'evidence' is going to be one-sided and the members of the 'jury' are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known. In Israel, there is no apartheid. Nothing there comes close to the definition of apartheid under the 1998 Rome Statute."[22]
South African journalist and human rights activist Benjamin Pogrund, now living in Israel, described the Cape Town Session of the Russell Tribunal on Palestine as "It's theatre: the actors know their parts and the result is known before they start. Israel is to be dragged into the mud."[23]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

Bertrand Russell Tribunal on War Crimes

Bertrand Russell created a body to investigate war crimes and Israel is being cited.
They are meeting periodically over the world.

Judge Richard Goldstone of the Goldstone Report makes it clear that Israel and Hamas
are in violation of the ostensible peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. He doesn't favor one side over another. They are both culpable.

The murder of Rachel Corrie

Rachel Corrie was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer and the case has been ignored by Israel and the United States, never investigated. It only amplifies what happens to peace activists who are non-violent but go against prevailing policies of the U.S. and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

A very balanced piece from Pakistan finds the Muslim Brotherhood not Islamic enough, and pro USA.
Thanks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 01:01 PM

Or - from the horse's mouth - a commercial reason
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/destroying-gaza-tunnels-seen-punitive-not-security-measure
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:57 PM

yo are calling the Egyptians bloody liars, and in the next your applauding them for shutting Gaza down
I have done neither Don.
I have taken Egypt's decision to close the tunnels in response to the incursion as sound evidence that they think the tunnels were used in the incursion.
If that is correct, then they were not being honest when they implicated Israel.

They certainly haven't said so. Do you have a mole in the Brotherhood feeding you inside info Keith?
No, I am persuaded by the dramatic flooding of the tunnels during talks with Hamas, and against the wishes of Hamas.
Why else would they flood those tunnels?
Linear synchronised swimming?

I am hugely entertained by your theory that Israel made an armed incursion into Gaza, then out again through the tunnels without Hamas ever finding out.
They then crashed through the Israeli border and had themselves all killed by their own comrades.

Just a tiny bit far fetched Don.
Were you being serious?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:53 PM

"The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from."
Would very much appreciate a link to this information, especially as it has been stated that Egyptians were almost certainly implicated in the killings
Jim Carroll

The Morsi era
By: Abid Mustafa | February 21, 2013 . 0
Ever since assuming the office of the presidency, Mohammed Morsi has worked resolutely to portray himself as a moderate Islamist working independent of American influence for the betterment of Egypt and the region. But beneath the veneer of Islamic rhetoric surrounding his domestic and foreign policy actions, Morsi is no better than his predecessor Mubarak - the former custodian of US interests in the region.
On the domestic front, Morsi can claim that the opposition has not permitted his government enough time to push through reforms that will address Egypt's battered economy, restore law and order, and improve the lives of ordinary Egyptian people. This is despite the fact that such reforms are formulated under the auspices of IMF stipulations for Egypt's government to revise its economic agenda in order to qualify for the $4.8 billion loan.
The IMF spokesman, Gerry Rice, said: "We understand the Egyptian authorities have been working on revising their economic programme. And once this step is completed, we will discuss the timing of a possible mission to Cairo to assess the revised programme." The delay has prompted America's rating agency, Moody, to downgrade Egypt's credit worthiness. Thus, USA's economic enslavement of Egypt continues via the IMF and Moody, regardless of the claims made by Morsi's government of following a sovereign economic policy.
On the foreign policy front, Morsi cannot conceal his pro-American credentials behind the wall of protestors. His foreign policy is distinctively American and in many ways is more than Mubarak's era.
Consider his treatment of Palestinians living in Gaza. On February 13, 2013, Egypt without warning flooded Gaza tunnels that are a lifeblood of the Palestinian people living in concentration camp like conditions in Gaza, which for all intents and purposes is controlled by the cowardly Jewish state.
The tunnels bring in everything from food and medicine to cement and iron, providing up to 75 percent of the goods to a population of 1.6 million people. An Egyptian security official in the Sinai told Reuters: "We are using water to close the tunnels by raising water from one of the wells."
Meanwhile, Hamas has been reluctant to criticise Morsi in public, but the Gazan's are more outspoken about Hamas' naivety and Morsi's brutality. "Egyptian measures against tunnels have worsened since the election of Morsi. Our Hamas brothers thought he would open up Gaza. I guess they were wrong," said a tunnel owner, who identified himself only as Ayed, fearing reprisal. "Perhaps, 150 or 200 tunnels have been shut since the Sinai attack. This is the Morsi era," he added.
So, Morsi's government has exploited the attacks on the Egyptian forces in Sinai in August 2012 to drive a ruthless campaign to close as many tunnels as possible and bolster the security of the Jewish state ahead of the much anticipated resumption of the dormant peace process. With Palestinian unity talks planned in the days ahead, Netanyahu weakened by the recent elections and Obama scheduled to visit the Jewish state in March 2013, Washington is keen to create the right atmosphere to give a vital push for peace between the Arabs and the Jewish state.
Central to the commencement of peace talks is the security of the Jewish state, and Morsi like his predecessor is doing his utmost to meet American and Jewish expectations. Nonetheless, the timing of the recent operation is intended to mollify Jewish criticism of America's delivery of four F-16 aircraft to the Egyptian air force.
Likewise, Morsi's close ties with Iran to find a political solution to the crisis in Syria that preserves remnants of Assad's regime bears the hallmark of America's intended solution.
America has been working tirelessly with Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Gulf countries as well as with the EU and Russia to protect Assad's regime in some form through a variety of initiatives - the latest being the Brahimi Plan. This will ensure the continuation of its hegemony over the Levant.
Within this context, Morsi visited Tehran in September 2012 and spoke of Iran as a pivotal stakeholder in finding a solution to the Syrian crisis. He said: "(Iran) a main player in the region that could have an active and supportive role in solving the Syrian problem.......I don't see the presence of Iran in this quartet (Turkey, Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia) as a problem, but is a part of solving the problem." This also explains why Morsi, a few days ago, warmly greeted Ahmadinejad.
His treatment of the Iranian President attracted the ire of some of Morsi's close supporters such as Daawa Salafiyya, which issued a statement: "Egypt is committed to the protection of all Sunni nations." Hence within a space of a few months, Morsi has managed to surpass Mubarak and do what his predecessor failed to do, i.e. forge a working relationship with Iran to safeguard US interests in the Levant.
America is mightily pleased with the domestic and foreign policy actions undertaken by Morsi's government. On February 3, 2013, US Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson said: "We look to Egypt to continue to serve as a force for peace, security and leadership as the Middle East proceeds with its challenging yet essential journey towards democracy."
There are important lessons for Egyptians to learn from Morsi's rule:
First, by simply calling for the ouster of a brutal dictator only to be replaced by someone who overtly expresses his faith in Islam is a folly of enormous proportions and will not change the plight of the people.
Second, the real cause of misery for Egyptians is the current system through which America continues to colonise the country. Unless the system is eradicated from its roots, the people will continue to suffer under Washington's colonial policies implemented by its loyalists in the present regime - be they Islamists or liberals.
Third, the only alternative to the present decadent system is the Islamic Sharia and not Western liberal democracy, as advocated by the short-sighted liberals. Western liberal democracy along with capitalism is dying and even people in the West are eagerly looking for an alternative system. But for Islamic Sharia to succeed, it has to be implemented holistically not in a piecemeal fashion, as championed by Muslim brotherhood and its supporters.
Fourthly, the only practical way to realise the implementation of the Sharia in domestic and foreign policy areas is through the re-establishment of the Caliphate. Only the Caliphate can guarantee an independent economic and foreign policy free from Western interference.
The writer is a political commentator, who specialises in Muslim affairs and global politics.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/columns/21-Feb-2013/the-morsi-era

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

"I pointed out it was the wrong thread."
That's what I just said.
I trust we have now seen the back of your continually trying to manipulate threads by accusing others of "thread drift" - now we need to tackle "out of date" and pointing at other nations crimes to excuse artrocities, then who knows, you might even try reading what others put up - whoops, was that a pig flying past the window?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM

""The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.""

They certainly haven't said so. Do you have a mole in the Brotherhood feeding you inside info Keith?

Taking into consideration the previous record of Mossad and Israel's special forces units, it is entirely credible that they might carry out such an action from Gaza. More credible perhaps than Hamas upsetting the applecart during delicate negotiations with Egypt.

Israel certainly would go to considerable lengths to prevent any such detente.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:57 AM

Once again you prove that you never read responses in full. BOBAD raised the point and I responded to him. You then stuck your nose in for your twopence worth of anti Muslim crap.

You really should make up your mind. In one sentence yo are calling the Egyptians bloody liars, and in the next your applauding them for shutting Gaza down.

Who gains most from the shutdown?.......Israel!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 11:34 AM

Thread drift.
Don T raised this issue this morning. I pointed out it was the wrong thread. You must have missed that Jim.

,i>The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere
Yes it has.
To prevent another incursion from Gaza.

Your Christian Science piece was in the immediate aftermath.
The flooding of the tunnels, making the closure permanent, was seven months later.
The Brotherhood are clearly now certain where the incursion came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 10:39 AM

"If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels,"
You seem to be thread drifting from one thread to the other now, while complaining about others doing it within the same thread.
And you are still referring to (and ignoring the fact that this has been pointed out to you on several occasions) a regime that you have described as repressive and have used constantly as an excuse for Israeli human rights abuses.
Are you really holding up a government that is under pressure from it's own people for its repressive and undemocratic nature.
The motive behind Egypt flooding the tunnels has been adequately explained elsewhere - don't suppose you bothered to read that one either.
"Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?"
Hamas and the Palestinians played no part in the killing of the Egyptian policeman and have not been accused of such by anybody other than those with a similar agenda as your own - the defending of a terrorist state's war crimes.
I suppose it's a waste of time asking you to present actual evidence that they have!
Jim Carroll

To repeat, in the vain hope.......
"Christian Science Monitor again
"Israel and Egypt have closed their official border crossings with Gaza until further notice, and Egyptian and Hamas officials have shut down the hundreds of tunnels that are used to smuggle food, fuel, and construction materials to the Israel-blockaded seaside territory because Egypt believes that the gunmen tried to escape into Gaza through them."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0806/Sinai-attack-seals-up-Gaza-to-outside-world-video
"The funeral ceremonies were disrupted by PRO-MILITARY HECKLERS" (Your "angry mourners" I believe J.C."who chanted slogans against President Mohammed Morsi of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Gaza's Hamas rulers."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57488629/16-egyptian-soldiers-killed-in-sinai-buried/"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 08:39 AM

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

If they REALLY believed Israel responsible, they would not have flooded the tunnels, and certainly not in the middle of sensitive talks with Hamas to improve relations.
They have to spout the required propaganda, but their actions reveal their true belief.

Why do YOU think they flooded the tunnels Don?
Aquarobics?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:29 AM

Only 'bored' with this partic topic, Jim. Have just got a previously unread Ben Elton from Amazon which I propose to read this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:13 AM

""Don, you refer to a different thread.""

I wasn't talking to you Keith, but responding to Bobad, who referred to my comments (or at least the part of them he wanted to emphasise) in that other thread. I responded to point out the bit he had somewhat sneakily left out.

Has he been taking lessons fom you?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.""

So one allegation can be ignored, if not repeated? How facile and devious!

The allegation was made, and the Muslim Brotherhood hates Israel just about as much as Israel hates the Muslim Brotherhood, so when it's a case of one's word against the other, I don't profess to know who, in this specific instance, is telling the truth.

You, on the other hand, automatically and without serious consideration decide that Israel is the truth teller, based on an almost religious belief in their veracity, which has been proven unjustified on many occasions.

The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Israel are equally likely to lie when it is to their advantage, but you only ever believe what comes out of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

M
Didn't quite finish.
I find being accused of being "intransigent" a little odd from somebody who has put the time and effort into defending the most stupidly intransigent individual I have ever encountered.
And BTW, there is nobody more sorry than me that things have turned out between us the way they have; maybe there's something to be said for the "no religion, no politics" signs you see in pubs!
If you really are "bored", why not try a good book? If you haven't already, I would highly recommend Markus Zusak's 'The Book Thief'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM

Several people put points specifically to me, so I am expected to respond.
Even so, I doubt my words exceed yours Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 06:35 AM

A truce.
I find the behaviour of the Israelis as I have described, but I am happy to take Don's and Mike's points on board and will no longer make the comparison. It is not my intention to hurt or insult anybody and I if I have, I apologise unreservedly for having done so.   
"You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!"
You dominate these threads by saying precisely nothing at length and putting a great deal of time, space and effort into avoiding answering anyone's points - interminably.
"All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim."
I totally agree, nor anybody else's, if you are referring to substance, but numerically you're streets ahead of anybody on this forum.
Want me to reassess this thread for you - and when it comes to your Herculean efforts on the Muslim Prejudice thread....
I do hope you're prepared to put a bet on this Keith - I could do with a long holiday in the sun.
"Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas."
And once again you appear to be instruct others how to make their contributions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

"I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour."
.,.,.,
Slightly breaking my promise not to join this thread [not 'otherwise occupied', Jim; just bored!], I would rejoin to this point by ref to the implications of the fine Law propounded by Mr Godwin as to the desperation of achieving adequate arguments which such comparisons on these threads imply; and point out moreover Don's agreement that such usage has an associative element that exceeds the decent boundaries of acceptability. You think it doesn't but it does. Are you really so insensitive as not to perceive how & why such is the case? I should be grieved to think so, and would sincerely like to think better of you than such an intransigent attitude would suggest.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:30 AM

Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points,

You usually criticise me for NOT answering ANYONE's points!
Which is it?

I do not think my little posts dominate a thread.
Not like your massive, multi-coloured, multi-fonted extravaganzas.

All my little posts put together do not come close to matching your output Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 04:13 AM

"Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in connection with anything Israeli-connected,"
And it is necessary to point out to Mike that ring-fencing discussing levels of behaviour which are comparable to techniques, used by the Nazis against the Jews, in style, if not in scope, as "not being able to go there" is evading the issue. I have never, nor would I suggest that Israeli behaviour is anything like comparable in scope to the Holocaust (capital H), but I fail to see how facilitating the systematic and cold blooded slaughter of 3,000 refugees is not comparable with Nazi behaviour.
Describing revulsion of such behaviour as "antisemitic" is as antisemitic as it gets.
Accusing your opponents of Antisemitism when they suggest that Israel's behaviour towards Gazan non-combatants, Bedouins, refugees - anybody who stands in the way of their expansionist policy really.... is to directly identify the Jewish people with massacres, chemical warfare, indiscriminate slaughter, forcible seizure of land, destruction of homes.... you name it, the Israelis are doing it.
The criticisms here are directed at the Israelis - I suggest you go and look up the word Antisemitism in your dictionary if you believe otherwise – mine gives "Hostility or prejudice towards Jews".
The Israelis are not The Jewish People, nor do they represent them by their behaviour - THE ONLY ANTISEMITES HERE ARE THOSE WHO SUGGEST THAT CRITICISM OF THAT BEHAVIOUR IS "ANTISEMITIC", THEREBY IDENTIFYING WAR CRIMES AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AS JEWISH   
"Carroll and Keith show"
Keith consistently takes over these threads, feels it necessary to answer everybody's points, polices the discussions by ordering people how and what to discuss, manipulates them by attempting to swerve the discussion in the direction he wishes it to take, numerically dominates them with his postings and invariably insists on having the last word - go and check if you doubt any of this.
To allow him to do this is to concede this forum to somebody who, in my opinion, wishes to use it as a platform for peddling bigotry and race/cultural hatred.
He often has a fairy godmother/father to assist him in his endeavours, on this occasion she/he appears to be otherwise occupied.
"Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil."
Would this be the same Muslim brotherhood whose actions you were using to prove that Hamas was responsible for the killing of Egyptian policemen?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 13 - 02:41 AM

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.
Don, you refer to a different thread.

Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood hate Israel (Jews?) and blame them for all evil.
When the incursion happened, blaming Israel was a knee jerk reaction.

However, power brings responsibility.
They clearly knew who was really responsible, and had to take action to stop it happening again.
They closed and flooded all the tunnels from Gaza, and took no action nor made any more statements against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

As a matter of fact, considering MtheGM's expressed disppointment and disapproval of the actions of the current Israeli government, you would, I think, be placing him in the antisemitic camp.

His objection to the points raised by Jim centres around the provocative use of "Holocaust" and "Nazi" in relation to Israel, on which point (sorry Jim), I am in agreement with him. It crosses a line which I believe should never be crossed.

Having said that, I think that the government of Israel cynically crosses the same line by invoking their status as victims of the Nazis to justify doing whatever they see fit to their neighbours.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:04 PM

""As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:""

And many within the ranks of worldwide Jewry, both witin and without Israel, are by that reckoning antsemitic.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:54 PM

""Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...""

The problem with you and the other Zionist supporters is that you never read anything thoroughly unless it comes out of the Isareli propaganda machine BB.

I merely pointed out that Egypt's claim was unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, while (and this is the bit you chose not to see) the Muslim brotherhood asserted quite strongly that Israel WAS responsible.

Presenting half the story is a serious fault of yourself and Keith.

Do you really believe that we will just let you get away with it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:35 PM

As an addendum to MtheGM's post I should point out to those who direct their their venom at Zionism or the "state of Israel" that many both within and without the Jewish community consider that tantamount to antisemitism. From Wiki:

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:49 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

Simplistic rubbish, Michael. Now I don't employ that word in this context myself because I do have at least some regard for the outcomes of my remarks, but (and I shouldn't really have to point this out to you) any comment that is Israel-related, whether the word Nazi is incorporated or not, is only antisemitic if it refers to all Jews being inferior in some way or all Jews having undesirable traits. Alternatively, it could be a comment in which "Jew" is gratuitously employed in a derogatory way ("I noticed that that bloody Jew didn't pay his bus fare!" instead of "I noticed that that bloody chap didn't pay his bus fare!") Let's stick with this and assume as default that comments referring to Israel normally refer to the Zionist tendencies of its leaders and, perhaps, to some of the hoodwinked people. I would be antisemitic if I said that the Jewish lobby in the US tries to manipulate the government in Israel's favour (AIPAC contains many Christians as well as various pillocks of other persuasions). If I said that the Israel lobby/pro-Israel lobby was doing it, that would not be antisemitic, even if I called them Nazis. That would be unwise and inaccurate, but it would not be antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM

Necessary to point out to Jim, yet again, that to use the word "Nazi" in conncection with anything Israeli-connected, whatever the apparent or pleaded motivation or justification, is a purposeful piece of provocative antisemitism any way you slice it.

In the useful formulation, Jim, of that barrister character in Shaw's 'You Never Can Tell': you think it isn't but it is.

This shall be my sole contribution on this occasion to the ever-ongoing, this·one·will·run·&·run, Carroll·&·Keith Show, whose continuance shows no sign of ever coming to an end, to the egregious delectation of the entire Cat-Community [NOT!].

שלום

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:47 PM

The post where I mentioned the song.
It begins with a quote by you which turned out to be a lie.
No British minister or any politician ever said any such disgusting thing.

16 Dec 10

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:33 PM

Slightly OT.............

The Isreali documentary film "The Gatekeepers" is Oscar nominated. In it, 6 former heads of Shin Bet talk bluntly about, amongst other things, illegal settlements and government policies. Israel apologists will not like the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

No answer to why you defended British fascism Keith, and are continuing to do so here, but beside the point.
Please answer the question;
WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERYBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC
Will have plenty more demands for answers to the questions you have so far avoided and for all the links you have lied about and not even read.
I listed 22 to these that you have so far ignored and there have been many more since.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM

Jim.
Archibald Henry Maule Ramsay .... went into politics as a Scottish Unionist Member of Parliament (MP). From the late 1930s he developed increasingly strident antisemitic views. In 1940, after his involvement with a suspected spy at the United States embassy, he became the only British MP to be interned under Defence Regulation 18B.

His mad poem was not published , never recorded and no record of anyone outside his mad club ever singing it.

Never miss an opportunity to attack Britain or Israel Jim, whatever the subject of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:44 PM

"You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region."

This is untrue and an excuse by the Zionist fanatics used to discredit their critics.
Quite a lot has been said about abuses by Hamas, and other Mid-East countries and organizations but this doesn't take Israel off the hook. These fanatics hide behind accusations of anti-Semitism and invoke the Holocaust as another weapon used against Zionist critics. Alan Dershowitz is well known for this attack mode, an esteemed lawyer who has a blind spot when it comes to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

Keith,
I wonder if you can clear up something that's been bothering me for some time?
I recently stumbled across an old argument of ours discussing British fascists who supported Hitler and the Nazis prior to and during WW2.
I had pointed out that were quite a number of them who came from the upper echelons of British society – Sir Oswald Mosely, the Mitford 'gel', Lord Rothermere (owner of The Daily Mail), Hon. Mrs Ismay Ramsay, 5th Duke of Wellington, William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) even King, Edward VIII and his lovely wife.
You dismissed them all as a handful of harmless nutters of no significance – i.e, you defended anti-Semitism by dismissing the fact that a significant number of people in powerful positions had banded together to form an organisation to promote it (this was in the run-up to and during WW2, when, had Hitler come to power, the word's Jews would have suffered the fate of the six million).
One particular name cropped up; Member of Parliament, Archibald Maule Ramsay, who set up 'The Right Club', which discussed, among other things, how they should handle "The Jewish Threat" after Hitler won the war.
He compiled a book entitled 'The Red Book' (the Independent Newspaper had just re-discovered it at the time of our argument) which listed British people who needed to be dealt with when Germany won.
It also published several poems, including (to be sung to the tune of 'Land of Hope and Glory'):

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee

Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

You dismissed this as harmless, comparing it to (I kid you not) 'Who Do You Think You're Kidding Mr Hitler", (which you believed to be a World-War-Two song) i.e. as harmless as a sit-com theme song.
Sorry to have gone on for so long (hope there aren't too many words for you to follow) , but I was wondering; WHEN THE **** DID YOU METAMORPHOSE FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PREPARED TO DEFEND BRITISH FACISM BY DOWNGRADING ITS IMPORTANCE, TO A RABID APOLOGIST WHO ACCUSES EVERBODY WHO EXPRESSES DISGUST AT ISRAEL'S NAZI-LIKE BEHAVIOUR AS BEING "ANTI-SEMITIC"
Would appreciate an answer to this one.
Jim Carroll
PS. Am happy to provide a link to this argument, should you care to deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

"Not evidence just hyped up propaganda."
Can I remind you that you have recently admitted that the only evidence you have offered for the Guardian and her staff being antisemitic has been taken from a site that proclaims itself as "MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."' IE a self declared propaganda site for hiding Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM

You mean to say Israel WON'T be pleased, Bruce?

Please elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Don,


"
Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.
"

Yet in a thread about EGYPT and GAZA, YOU make it about Israel and its supporters...






Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Egypt has its own malcontents, dissidents and nutjobs, all of whom were, and still are, very active following the change of regime.

The Egyptians' claim that Palestinians were responsible is both unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, but of course all the anti Gaza brigade will take Satan's word over that of Hamas

Just another escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip. Israel will be pleased!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM

Resorting to hysteria now, Keith, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.

There never is such a thread.
You lot ONLY AND ALWAYS SINGLE OUT ISRAEL, ignoring the far greater excesses and crimes of all the other countries in the region.

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine
I am almost a lone voice putting Israel's side of the story.
There are enough of you putting the case against!

The OP was all lies against Israel, but here you all are still supporting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:39 AM

Israel deserves to be castigated for what it has done in terms of the settlements. But the people here who choose to target that have never to my knowledge targeted Muslim activities that rational people would see as inhuman/e. Few have said a thing about human rights violations elsewhere in the Middle East because there are no Jews involved. I see them as Jew haters regardless their protestations of innocence, because it is always Israelis being singled out for their attacks. In the parlance, fuck 'em. The only violations they care to talk about are Israeli violations. Yes, there are many of them. There are also innumerable Muslim violations they never mention. Their silence about that speaks loudly.

That is simply unfair, Bruce. I don't see anyone around here singing the praises of undemocratic Arab or Islamic regimes. The fact is that we know about the outrages perpetrated in some of those countries, particularly with regard to treatment of women, gay people and other minorities. So why aren't there more threads about them? Why aren't there more threads about North Korea? Why aren't there more threads about the repression of Catholics by the Church in Africa? There simply isn't the passion to get stuff going, that's all. The reason there are lots of Israel threads is that there is a massive pro-Israel groundswell in the west, fed by pro-Israel lobby groups which also happen to have a firm hand on the tiller of the media. I contend that people in the US in particular, but in other western countries too, do not get anything like both sides of the story (and in my opinion it shows all too clearly). The people here who you're calling Jew-haters are trying to redress the balance. To put the other side. If you still think that Israel is a shining light of civilisation surrounded by a bunch of cut-throat tribal savages, then I'm afraid you're simply not looking past what Fox News or those of similar sentiment tell you. The human rights abuses that go on within the boundaries of Israel are no different to the ones we all condemned when they occurred in South Africa and those to which we look back in shame when they occurred in the deep south. The best land is stolen, families are divided, people are prevented from moving freely around, you are far more likely to be unemployed, etc. etc. Go on, why don't you tell me that the Israeli Arabs are inferior and have brought it all on themselves - and tar yourself with your own brush? We heard all that before in apartheid South Africa, in white Rhodesia and in the southern states before the civil rights movement. And the only people around here who keep mentioning Jews are the suckers who have fallen into the Zionist trap of calling all anti-Israel sentiment anti-Jew sentiment. It is no such thing, Bruce. As an ardent member of the camp you are so quick to denigrate, I can tell you that I would lock up anyone who threatened the existence of Israel, I would lock up anyone who publicly denied the Holocaust and I would lock up anyone preaching true antisemitism (which says that Jews are inferior or have undesirable traits en masse). I also condemn Hamas's rockets targeted at civilians. I have said these things many times, as have many of the other so-called "Jew-haters" you refer to, but I get the distinct impression that the pro-everything-Israel camp are so hoodwinked by their grooming by the media to hear only one side that they occasionally bring the trait over here as well. It's called denial, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

""Not true Jim.
All countries sometimes behave badly in self interest.""

Lip service Keith?

Put up one comment of yours on this thread which even implies that Israel bears the slightest responsibility for the current hostility in Palestine, particularly the West Bank and Gaza.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 06:28 AM

""Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.""

We all have plenty of evidence of your highly selective notions of what is, or is not pertinent to any topic.

Taking a leaf out of your book, I stick to the topic of Israel in a thread about Israel.

If you feel inclined to start a thread about how badly the Egyptians treat the Bedouins, I will be right there with you in deploring and castigating them and their actions.

If however, you want me to subscribe to your ridiculous claim that the evil actions of Egypt, or Syria, or any other nation not under discussion, somehow excuse any excesses of the Israeli government, dream on. I'm not that stupid.

And if, in a thread about Egypt's excesses you were to align yourself with Egypt and try to excuse them, the response from me would be exactly the same as you have received here.

War crimes, crimes against humanity and infringements of human and civil rights are not a competition in which there are minor miscreants who get a free pass because someone else is worse, and only a biased and bigotted individual would try to claim otherwise.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 13 - 04:29 AM

    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Jim C does that.

    Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Don, you have endlessly criticised Israel for their perceived ill treatment of Bedouin, but you have never once criticised Egypt for their actual persecution and marginalisation of them, denying them even basic citizenship and employment rights.
Nothing to do with Zionism there.

You have frequently denounced Israel for other perceived crimes but never their Arab neighbours Syria, Gaza, Egypt or Jordan.
Again, not Zionism but favouring any state over the Jewish one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Feb 13 - 02:59 PM

""The EUMC then goes on to cite specific examples of antisemitism including:""

Not once have I expressed hatred or even dislike toward Jews or even Israel as a nation. I have been very careful indeed to make it clear that I am talking about the Zionists of the current Israeli government, of whom every devout follower of Judaism should be thoroughly ashamed, and I believe most of them are.

So point out exactly where any of those examples apply to me if you can.

I think I would find it easier to show up your hatred of Muslims and Arabs.

Don T.