BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Yes, so a claim that the Islamic terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 were killing every man, woman and child in America would be just as big a lie as the preposterous lie that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

Barry: "What will the Israelis give up?"

The Israelis will stop the bombing and retreat back to Israel. The war will be over.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Nickhere,

Too bad you didn't actually read my post instead of just reacting to it. I said that every innocent persons death is a tragedy.

The miniscule percentage was quoted in response to a particular Mudcatter's preposterous claim that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

Come to think of it, those percentages are starting to remind me of Jonathon Swift's 'Modest Proposal" (Google it)

0.02% - that's all? The Gazans can easily afford that, it's not such a lot really, what with all them Arab wimmin having loads of babies and everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Percentages are great things, aren't they? Only 0.02% or whatever of Gaza's long-suffering citizens have been blown to bits by Israeli bombs etc., Well it sounds better than over 1,000 people and 5,000 wounded anyway, I suppose. And you can do some more algebra and math until all those dead people don't look like very much really. Like Stalin is reputed to have said "the death of a million men is a statistic"

I wonder how long before someone says Jesus was betrayed by only 13.2% of his apostles?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Of course attacking TV stations and suchlike and killing journalists is now standard enough practice - it's happened in Iraq, and Afghanistan and of course there was the time Tony Blair bombed a TV station in Belgrade and killed 16 technicians and journalists.

Here's a site monitoring these kinds of attacks on media workers - International News Safety Institute - INSI More than 100 journalists and other media workers were killed in 2008. There's a running score chart on that site - so far the toll for 2009 is six.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Iraeli rocket fire damaged a media centre in a high rise Gaza building today.Two Abu Dhabi journalists were injured by shrapnel and two floors below the Reuters office had to be evacuated after it was damaged in the attack by an Israeli warplane.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

To Teribus
You are wrong to say that it was Hamas that ended the ceasefire.

The ceasefire held up remarkably well but was doomed once Israel continued to tighten the noose around Gaza by totally controlling and throttling Gaza's land ,sea and air borders.

During the 18 months of the blockade hundreds of Gazan hospital patients in desperate need of medical treatment were denied exit from the strip and over a hundred died as a direct result.

The last straw for the Palestinians was the killing of six Hamas men inside Gaza which effectively was the start of the renewed conflict.

I am not making this up it is what is widely claimed by many outside the ranks of Israel's apologists for the slaughter that is taking place in Gaza.

All credit to those inside Israel,both Israeli and Palestinian, who have called for an end to the slaughter and have a wider perspective than the tunnel vision of those who are directing and murdering in the city.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

BOBERT FACT - US has nuclear bunker busting bombs

ACTUAL FACT :

"US drops nuclear "bunker buster" from budget"
Date 27 October 2005 by Shaoni Bhattacharya


Controversial plans to research nuclear "bunker busters" have been abandoned by the by the US in the country's 2006's budget.

The Bush administration and the Senate have agreed with the House of Representatives to scrap the funding for the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator (RNEP) in the 2006 Energy and Water Development Appropriations Bill.

The Pentagon will instead focus on developing a conventional deep-earth penetrating bomb, said Senator Pete Domenici, chair of the Senate subcommittee dealing with the issue.

He said the National Nuclear Security Administration had requested such a switch. "The focus will now be with the Defense Department and its research into earth-penetrating technology using conventional weaponry. The NNSA indicated that this research should evolve around more conventional weapons rather than tactical nuclear devices," he said in a statement."

Some More ACTUAL FACT:

During the "Cold War" the Soviet Union and the United States were creating bunkers buried under huge volumes of soil or reinforced concrete in order to withstand the multi-megaton thermonuclear weapons developed in the 1950s and 1960s. Bunker penetration weapons were initially designed out of this Cold War context.

The weapon was revisited in the post-Cold War for use in Afghanistan in 2001, and again during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. During the campaign in Tora Bora in particular, the United States believed that "vast underground complexes," deeply buried, were protecting opposing forces. Such complexes were not found. While a nuclear penetrator (the "Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator", or "RNEP") was never built, the DOE was allotted budget to develop it, and tests were conducted by the Air Force Research Laboratory.

As well, it has been stated that Iran may have such deeply buried bunkers to guard its nuclear program.

The Bush administration removed its request for funding of the weapon in October 2005. Additionally, US Senator Pete Domenici announced funding for the nuclear bunker-buster has been dropped from the Department of Energy's fiscal 2006 budget at the department's request, strongly indicating that the project for the development of the RNEP seems to be in fact canceled.

Now I am willing to place a bet that Bobert will continue to witter on about the evils of this US weapon that does not exist.

To Guest ifor:
"I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore. The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered."

Irrespective of whether they have committed them or not as has proven to be the case in the past Guest ifor

"Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?"

What Zionist project is that Guest ifor?? That second point of yours doesn't really reflect the history of the area does it?? I think that after unprovoked attack, after unprovoked attack, by Palestinian Arabs on Palestinian Jews between 1920 and 1937 (Peel Commission) it suddenly dawned on the British that there was never going to be a one state solution because the Palestinian Arabs simply refused point blank to live in a single state and peacefully co-exist with their Jewish neighbours, many of whom Guest ifor had been there for hundreds of years. Towards the end of the British Mandate period the United Nations came to exactly the same conclusion and proposed a two state solution that the Israelis accepted and the Arabs rejected. So tell me Guest ifor, if what you say is true please tell me exactly when it was that the Israelis rejected a single state solution. I take it that you can do that, or is this just another "Marxist Myth".

"But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories."

Tell me Guest ifor, there were "Israeli Settlers" in Gaza prior to the hand-over to the Palestinians in 2005. Those settlers had been there for years. The Israeli Government stated that as part of the hand-over the settlers would be removed. Where are those settlers now Guest ifor?? Are they still in Gaza? Or did Israel keep its word?? What was the Palestinian part of the deal Guest ifor?? It had something to do with a cessation of indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians from inside Gaza didn't it?? Tell me Guest ifor, did the Palestinians keep their word?? Now according to their track record Guest ifor, if Israel states that it will return the West Bank to the Palestinians in order that a two-state solution can be implemented and that all settlers will be removed. Then oddly enough Guest ifor based upon their track record in similar circumstances I believe that the Israelis would do precisely what they said they would do.

"The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land."

I do love it when lefties get all emotional, you can almost see them frothing up – no mention there of the attacks on the Israeli population Guest ifor. The dangerous thing is that, according to your perspective and that of many others on this forum in relation to this conflict, no matter what Israel can do no right and expect to live and the more that that is pushed and promulgated the starker the choice becomes. If the Israelis are to be accused of doing something that they at present most certainly are not then why not say "to hell with it, if we're being accused of it lets actually do it, wipe them out. We may be hated but we will be safe". Because neither, Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon is going to go to war with Israel over the Palestinians who have repeatedly rejected ever peace offer ever made. Sad fact is Guest ifor, that none of those countries, or those "heroic freedom fighters" of Hamas, et al, give a tupenny-hapenny damn about "The Palestinians" – They never have, not for one second.

"…it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict."

Please correct me if I am wrong here Guest ifor but it was Hamas that is down on record as the party that ended the "cease-fire" and it was Israel that was down on record as wanting it to continue.

The responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians within Gaza rests solely with their elected "Government" and that, unfortunately for the "Palestinians", is Hamas. It is up to Hamas to protect its citizens and act in their best interests to secure their safety, in exactly the same way it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to safeguard and protect its citizens. The Israeli military intervention in Gaza was brought about by attacks on Israeli centres of population by Hamas and other terrorist groups operating within Gaza with the consent of Hamas. World wide revulsion is not worth the life of a single child – Now Guest ifor tell that to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

Medical Aid For Palestinians, a relief charity working in Gaza, has issued a press release the main points of which are as follows:

Al Wafa and Al Wia'm hospitals in Gaza have both been attacked by the Israeli military dropping bombs.

Al quds and the European hospital have also been attacked with phospherous .

13 medical staff have been killed and 22 injured since the invasion started 20 days ago.
15 ambulances have been destroyed and 7 damaged

12 health centre have been attacked and damaged including one funded by european churches.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM

He believes whoever says what he wants to hear. ;-) And that would be the Israeli government, naturally.

All people do that. They believe whoever says what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

So, who do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

Actually...


"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the military fired artillery shells at the U.N. compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location. Three people were wounded.

"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologize for it," he said. "I don't think it should have happened and I'm very sorry."

A senior Israeli military officer had also said Israeli troops shelled the compound after coming under fire from Palestinian militants there — an account dismissed by a U.N. official there at the time as "nonsense.""

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

I see Barak has apologised for shelling the main UN compound in Gaza, where 700 Palestinians had been sheltering. He has described it as a "grave mistake".

Well, I suppose that is better than the reflex of making out it was a justified attack on Hamas who were using the refugees as a human shield...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz the Al Quds hospital in Gaza is engulfed in flames after being attacked by Israeli military forces.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

"Bobert - PM
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...
....
Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

Another source of confusion here is that police are counted as civillians.
IDF regards and targets them as being part of Hamas military

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM

Reports are being broadcast that the United Nations HQ in Gaza has been and partially destroyed hit by Israeli phopherous shells .
Some 700 Palestinians who had fled from their homes were sheltering in the UN facility when it was attacked.Casualties have been reported.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:28 AM

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)

***

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

***

I think that every lost innocent life is a tragedy. I believe that the only solution to the Middle East quagmire is the two-state solution that Hamas rejects.

But I also know that the Hamas terrorists hide behind the civilian population.

Hamas' own estimates are that a third of the Palestinian dead are innocent civilian. That amounts to 2/100ths of 1% of the Palestinians in Gaza.

If Israel's intent was to live up to Barry Finn's statements above, they're not doing a very good job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative."

I don't think anyone actually said that, did they bruce? Or linked those two things.

If anything stopping the killing in Gaza is about saving Israel.
....................

Roughly half means "either a bit more than half or a bit less than half - we don't actually know". And seriously, how does it make any difference which of those statistics is the case?

When it turned out that "only" 3000 people were killed when the Twin Towers came down, rather than earlier estimates of 10,000, did that alter the horror of what had been done? If it turned out that "only" say fiver million Jews were killed in the Holocaust rather than six million, would that change anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"


"Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers – 6 mins ago



Roughly half civilians is now mostly women and children???

Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative, but it was wrong to ask Iraq to prove what it had done with it's WMD programs ( previously observed by the UN)?


OK, tell me why I should consider this reasonable?????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Maybe a hyphen could make things clearer.

Nuclear-bunker busters. For busting bunkers that aspire to provide some protection against nuclear weapons.
..................................................

Only 40% women and children among those killed and less than half of those wounded. That makes all the difference then.

The truth is no one can possibly have accurate figures in a situation like this. They are estimates. There are undoubtedly dead bodies lying in bombed buildings that no one has counted yet, and wounded as well.

The majority of people in Gaza are women and children, that at any rate is beyond question. Since by no means all the men killed will in any sense have been combatants, it seems pretty evident that most of those killed and injured will have been civilians - after all that is the normal pattern in modern wars. It has definitely been the case in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM

Now that they are training their guns on the UN the casualty count of women, at least, will probably go up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

Barry,

It is known that Israel has bunker busters, but it is Bobert's claim that bunker busters are nuclear that is in dispute.

Still looking for any reports that the majority ( ie, more than 50%) of the Gazan casualties are women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

We don't have nuclear bunker busters??? How do you ****know**** that, BB??? There was some discussion back in '03 about building them... So, unless you have national security clearance and the defense contrator who is supplying the DoD with bunker buster bombs you don't know any more than what the governemnt wants you to know... Which is generally propaganda...

And if you are that DoD contrator with security clearance then I'm sure the DoD would be interested in why you have parked yourself here in Mudville pontificating about weaponry...

Like I said, prove that those requests back in '03 didn't produce a new and improved bunker buster...

But beyond that, do you think that Israel should have bunker busters???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Barry,


You state:
"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"

I find this:
"Appalled that fighting was still continuing in Gaza despite a Security Council's ceasefire resolution, senior United Nations officials said today they were horrified at the human costs amid reports that over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children. "

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/14-01-2009/106947-gazaunhospitals-0


Do you have anything more recent?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM

The US has already reported that Israel has Bunker Busters but their request for more has been denied. (See any recent news caption)

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)



"on houses in densely populated areas"
BB
"Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of."

So the idea is to bomb & level every house in Gaza
They're doing a good job of it!

They (the civilians) can't house what they don't have = food & medical supplies (against the Geneva Conventions & International Law)

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:56 AM

30,000 dead civilian Kurds- We can't have Saddam actually comply with the ceasefire terms.


1,000 dead Gazans, half of whom are civilians- Israel does not have the right to exist.




Bobert, you make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM

BTW, Bobert,

You are asking me to prove that the US has nOT given Israel "nuclear bunker busters"

I have shown they do not exist, but aren't you asking me to prove a negative, which YOU declared was what the UN did with UNR1441 about Iraq?

You are now saying that the Iraq war was justified, because Saddam could not prove he had not gotten WMD???????

Or is it just Jews that you make unreasonable evaluations about????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Bobert,

Let me 'splain something to you.

We don't have nuclear bunker busters.

Israel (probably ) has more than enough nuclear weapons to use them, if they wamnted to- the continued existance of Gaza seems to indicate they have no diesire to use them.

I explained how bunker busters are NOT nuclear, and you keep repeating the lie that they are.

I look for facts, which obviously is beyond your comprehension


" ******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you."

You have NEVER given facts to support your statements- As opinions, you are entitled to them, but when you insist on declaring them "Bobert facts" and demand that we all accept them, it would be nice if they were at least physically possible.

You seem to be acting more and more like you claim Bush is, every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:38 AM

Barry


"Most are women & children!"

Figures I have seen quoted from the Palestinian sources have been less than half.

Hardly most.


"on houses in densely populated areas"

Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM

Even The Dead Are Not Safe In Gaza

Israeli bombing has destroyed the large Sheik Radwan cemetery in Gaza destroying graves and exposing the corpses of those killed during the invasion of Gaza.

Even the dead cannot be at peace from the missiles and bombs fired with impunity .
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:50 AM

To Teribus
I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore.The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered.

Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?

But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories.

The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land.

This is no basis for any kind of solution that is acceptable.I don't think the Palestinians will accept living in a series of shrinking bantustans being ruled by their gun totin' Israeli masters and surrounded on all sides by Israeli territory . And those who are not locked into these bantustans will be imprisoned and humiliated in broken,poverty stricken Gaza, another giant prison.

I think the above is the prospect for Palestinians and the seeds for further conflict and carnage with Israel. And it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict.It keeps trying to bomb the Palestinians and for that matter the Lebanese into submission but it is getting harder and harder to win a military victory...and the sight of those dead and mutilated children murdered and maimed in their hundreds and thousands is long going to fuel world wide revulsion .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM

Now this post I found quite ludicrous

From what Guest,JTT hears:

"a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal"

Eh JTT does that observation of yours mean that these rockets are only capable of "slightly" killing a person?? Unguided or controlled, fired indiscriminately at civilian centres of population they are mean to kill Israeli civilians the fact that they have not been terribly successful is not from the want of trying.

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

Can you give us any other instances of countries, regimes or armies engaged in military operations who take their direction from their legal systems?? Judging MSM over the past 8 years I wouldn't allow the prats in either.

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

And who deliberately put them in harms way Guest,JTT?? Who was it ended the "cease-fire"??

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

1.5 million as has been pointed out

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

While they are doing their best to kill you?? And have declared openly that they will never recognise your right to live a peaceful life?? It is Hamas that has to change politically before any negotiations that would lead to peace can take place.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM

First of all, BB... You obviuosly are obsessed... Like how come if I post one thing you have to post 3000 posts afterwards??? That is ibsession and you need to seek out mental health...

While y6ou are there ask them why it is you believe everything that the Bush administration **********tells********** you... You are not only obsesses but you are such a cheerleader that you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on your obsessed ass...

What makes you the authority on what lies the Bush administration tells are woprthy of false belief... You don't have a clue about what weapons the US has or is sharing with Isreal... If you do then...

...prove it!!! If not, quit callin' folks liars....

You are nothing but a "true believer" blowhard...

******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you... If you can't then quit with the liar crap and shut the fu*k up!!!

Have a nice day,

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

No, Israel isn't trying to kill children. It's just not trying too hard not to kill them.

Much the same as Hamas with their rockets, but on a much much larger scale, not because Hamas is less ruthless or Israel more ruthless, but because that's how the firepower is distributed.

There really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals. Which is a definition of terrorism. Not because they are particularly wicked, it's a way of thinking grounded on historical circumstances. A self destructive way of thinking.
...............................

The suggestion that the expulsion of Jews from other countries in the Middle East retrospectively justified the forced exile of Arabs from what became Israel is pretty suspect. Turn it around, and it seems to imply that the expulsion of those Jewish populations was justified by what had happened in Israel.

More honest to recognise that both these actions were criminal - another example of how "there really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

"The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels"

Not when they are dropped on houses in densely populated areas, as hsa been going on.

Yes, Gaza is being flatttened.

Not 30o children BB
Now over 1000 killed most civilians, in densly civilian populated areas. Over 5000 now wounded with no way to access medical aid & supplies (againt international law & the Geneva Conventions). !0 daed Israeli soldiers. Who do I feel for. Most are women & children!
Where is your humanity? It's so very sad that a people can turn so utterly vicious & blind towards the sufferings of another when they feel so rightious, as did the Nazi's. Israel will pay in the end, as did Germany. Yes BB, I put Israel on the same gutteral level as Nazi Germany & those that supported Germany's cruel aggression heap upon the Jews back then & is exactlly the same as Israel is now heaping upon the Palestinians

Bring in all the history you want, history does not give any excuses to commit mass murder & ethnic cleansing!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

Actually,

D. The population of Gaza is about 1.5 million ( not 1 million)



300 children killed in the entire population of 1.5 million- If Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, they really need a lot more training.

The hoods in DC kill more than that a year, out of half that population.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

The old threads are down, so I can't find Teribus's support for Georgia against Russian "agression".

What a hypocrit!!

The US State dept were finally forced to admit the hostilities were started by Georgia.link

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

From what I hear:

a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

Oh you little liar T.    I said "hundreds of Ossetians"

And what verification would you accept anyway?...The Russians? The Ossetians?....Even the Georgians and their mad leader have admitted to the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:57 PM

Nickhere,

"It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. "


1. Any competant military will have plans for likely actions. Even the US has them, for such things as invading Canada...

2. "a handful of rockets in November" ???? How about 6000 rockets and morter shells over two years? Probably about 25 times what Israel is using on Gaza each day (60 sorties/4 bombs max). So Israel should keep it up another 6 days, for parity??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I hate it when the NYT has something reasonable to say...


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14friedman.html


Op-Ed Columnist
Israel's Goals in Gaza?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: January 13, 2009

I have only one question about Israel's military operation in Gaza: What is the goal? Is it the education of Hamas or the eradication of Hamas? I hope that it's the education of Hamas. Let me explain why.

I was one of the few people who argued back in 2006 that Israel actually won the war in Lebanon started by Hezbollah. You need to study that war and its aftermath to understand Gaza and how it is part of a new strategic ballgame in the Arab-Israel arena, which will demand of the Obama team a new approach.

What Hezbollah did in 2006 — in launching an unprovoked war across the U.N.-recognized Israel-Lebanon border, after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon — was to both upend Israel's longstanding peace strategy and to unveil a new phase in the Hezbollah-Iran war strategy against Israel.

There have always been two camps in Israel when it comes to the logic of peace, notes Gidi Grinstein, president of the Israeli think tank, the Reut Institute: One camp says that all the problems Israel faces from the Palestinians or Lebanese emanate from occupying their territories. "Therefore, the fundamental problem is staying — and the fundamental remedy is leaving," says Grinstein.

The other camp argues that Israel's Arab foes are implacably hostile and leaving would only invite more hostility. Therefore, at least when it comes to the Palestinians, Israel needs to control their territories indefinitely. Since the mid-1990s, the first camp has dominated Israeli thinking. This led to the negotiated and unilateral withdrawals from the West Bank, Lebanon and Gaza.

( more in article- I will have to give them credit for a reasonable viewpoint!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

"They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews."

"...and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea."

This is the "party line" that the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza have been fed for 60+ years. Why bother getting educated, starting businesses, working hard or being responsible citizens? After all, as soon as the evil Jews are exterminated, the Arabs will move into their houses, take their diamonds and gold, and live like royalty. The fools have bought this BS for several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

Well guest ifor, those Israeli Arabs, should thank their lucky stars that they did not exercise dissention in Gaza, the punishments inflicted there would have seen them thrown from the tops of high-rise buildings, or I suppose crucified if they were deemed to be "weakening the spirit of the people". By the bye they have not been banned there have been moves to bar them and the result of that appeal will not be known until Friday.

Usual emotive crap from Akenaton, historically a keeper of slaves, were they Jewish slaves? I must look that up. Ake if you are fighting a battle you fight it to win, there are no other considerations. I found it rather cynical the other night listening to a Prince of the Royal House of Saud complaining bitterly that the Israelis weren't fighting "by the rules" as they ought to - No mention at all of any obligation on the part of Hamas or the other Jihadist Groups having to do the same of course.

Now, if Israel and the IDF were indeed acting as Akenaton and others on this forum have suggested with regard to civilians, then by now there wouldn't be anybody alive in Gaza at all, the percentage of "civilians" killed still however amounts to around 0.03% of the population. Gaza has not been "flattened", there has been no "blanket bombing". Oh Akenaton there never was any confirmation of those thousands of South Ossetians killed by the Georgians was there?

And now we have a new "BOBERT FACT" used by Bobert to make his mind up about something:

"With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush administration's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking..."

There is no such thing Bobert as a "nuclear bunker busting bomb", the US did trials on the casings for them and could not get them to work, all a simple matter of record Bobert, it was all explained to Congress, who have to sign off on the US military budget and how it is spent. But I know that you will not look into that and "YOUR" nuclear bunker buster bomb will join the ranks of "the heads on sticks" and the "3000 Patriot missiles per day". Doesn't help your argument at all when it is so clearly based on lies and myth.

The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels, through which Hamas chose to smuggle arms instead of food or medical supplies. Now who was it needed which most and what did the "elected government" of the Palestinians in Gaza deliver??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 AM

Looking at my 08:37 post, I see that it is possibly excessively long.


Clones, please delete it and I will repost in smaller posts.