BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:38 AM

"NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control." - Don

OK Don can you tell me what sovereign state the British Government took over and did this to?? If you are talking about Palestine then Don I would advise you to go away and do a bit of reading because if you are talking about Palestine you are talking out your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:44 AM

"I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that."


Not true- the West bank is the more fertile portion, and that does not include the 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory reserved esclusively for the Moslims as THEIR homeland in 1923.

"a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control."

Look at the Jewish population of Palestine under the Ottomans: Does the territory of Israel reflect even that percentage of the Mandate Palestine total territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:20 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Israelis and Jews.

What about the ARAB PALESTINIAN Homeland of TransJordan, established in 1923 of the 77% of the Mandate Palestine forbidden to Jewish settlement against Mandate law)? What about the 820,000 Arab Jews (versus the 640,000 Arab Moslim Palestinians) driven from their homes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:11 AM

CarolC:
"And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters."

CarolC:
"Actions are more important than words. "




WORDS: " Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words."

I agree with CarolC. Their words are nowhere near as important as their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:52 AM

"It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress..."

             They are in fact. If we could only get rid of religion, none of this would be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:31 AM

I'm The Bully
(words & music by Barry Finn)

CHORUS:
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I need the practice, you need the pain
I'm the bully, you're my victim
I've got the passion to drive you insane

Oh how I love to, stalk the weakling
And the outcast and the lame
I'm on prowl for someone different
Some unfit prey to be my game

Chorus

A shove on the stairs, when none are watching
A whisper of terror that none will hear
I can eyeball you at a hundred paces,
And strike with fear year after year

Chorus

I'll hound you from the crowed schoolyards
I'll pursue you in the public parks
You'll have no friends & no companions
You'll be a wretch with a broken heart

Chorus

You can cry for help & beg for mercy
And tell the world just what I've done
You can pull a knife or pull the trigger
You're on my turf, in the end I've won.

Chorus

The only way you'll ever beat me
Is to know the coward beasts for who they are
Stand up and ignore and expose me
Trapped in my den caged behind bars


Copyright 2000

Guess who's the bully & guess who the victim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:27 AM

""Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play.""

NO! 62 years of needless conflict Teribus, a path elected mainly by the British government when they took over a sovereign state, and introduced many thousands of foreigners, without so much as a by-your-leave, and to add insult to injury, put the newcomers in control.

You would scream loud and long if that happened in YOUR country, as would I.

The State of Israel is the living expression of the shame of those who did nothing to prevent, or alleviate the suffering inflicted on the Jews. That does not alter the fact that those Jews were rightly citizens of various European countries, while the muslims who are so unpopular here were and are rightfully citizens of Palestine.


I don't really feel particularly surprised that the Palestinians are less than overjoyed at being summarily dispossessed of half their country, and the more fertile, productive, half at that.

It seems that Richard the Lionheart's crusades are still in progress

Don T..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:12 AM

""By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows.""

So peace in the schoolyard can only be countenanced when the VICTIM lies down and allows the BULLY to kick him, at which point the BULLY will magnanimously withdraw to the accolade of all his supporters, while the VICTIM crawls off to the doctor's surgery for treatment.

VERY EQUITABLE! And I bet the Israelis would love it.

Well I supervised a playground with 300 kids for over fifteen years, and my take on ending a playground fight is this. YOU GRAB BOTH OF THEM, PULL THEM APART, AND SEND BOTH OF THEM TO THE HEADMASTER FOR PUNISHMENT!!!

That is how it should be dealt with, and by so doing you deprive the BULLY of the status he would gain among other thugs, by being allowed to claim a WIN.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:58 AM

Wow, I can't believe I haven't thought of that part of my life in yrs, I can't even remember how long. I don't think I've ever told my even my wife or kids either. I'll have to check with them & let them know if they don't.

Of course I may try & forget about this every time I remember it & only think I haven't thought of this in such a long time

Funny, the mind is a tricky thing to try to not use

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:54 AM

"While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play."

What makes you think Teribass that Israel's intent isn't the same????
Christ, by their actions it is identical to the words of Hamas & Hezbollah. All should be tried in the world court for 'Crimes Against Humanity' & Isreal should have an added charge of "Attempted Genocide" put against them with the US in the same court because of our backing of them. They have all gone way beyond, except that the Israeli population has not suffer any all attcak that could be considered attempted "Genocide" even if some have verbly professed that disire where as Israel has not 'officially' verbally stated this but by their actions this is exactlly what they are attempting. And they that suffered this same fate just a few short generations ago. "LEST THEY FORGET"
Shame to them & their their supporters

As for the training of children. I was one of those children who was being cultivated for & by the US. And you think it's just these backwards, two bit, third world nations that train kids for war & hate. The school I attened is still enrolling & has a history going back better than 200 yrs. http://www.vfmac.edu/camp/index.html

When I was 13-14 I was sent to this military training school to keep me out of trouble. Great, all I needed at the time was the ruduments of hand to hand combat training & the knowledge & trianing in firearms. I was being taught while at school the military use of a 305 enfielf sniper rifle & the field stripping of automatic weapons, one in peticular, a 50 cal. machine gun, target practice with a 22. I attended Valley Forge Military Acadamy at Valley Forge, Pa, right here in the US. They take kids in starting at the ages of 6 for their summer camp program & starting in prep school at the grade of 7 for thier program (that's what I was enrolled in).
At the time the Russians & the Chinesse were our emeny's that were to be focused on.

They taught me well. When they taught me just enough I escaped. I was later caught in downtown Phily & brought back. The two fellows I escaped with were also caught. The first to get caught never made it past the high fences we had to climb in the darkness before the alam & spotlights came on. He was put into hot & cold running showers dressed in a just what a sailor would call as the top only only of their foul weather gear. By the time myself & the other escapee got caught it was by the city Police. We couldn't be treated in the same fashion. We were shamed & I preferred to be drummed out, the other guys stayed. I believe they both died as young junkies.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:49 AM

"As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters. "

Oh, for heaven's sake!

So, let's go down this road then, shall we.

If the British Government brought out a charter saying that they'd not rest until all Muslims had been obliterated from the face of the earth, you're saying it wouldn't matter? It wouldn't matter, so long as they abided by what most of the British people wanted?

There would be an international outcry, as well you know.

Think on this.

A new Hamas Charter stating that their one aim is to find peace with Israel, to live with them as neighbours, to grow with them, to see each other as equals, to lay down the weapons, to breed peace where once they bred hate, and to apologise with every breath in their body for the hate and racism they've poured out over the Israeli people, would go an awful long way to bringing peace in the Middle East forever, particularly if that charter was taken up by others.

If you raise your children on hatred, then all you will get is a hateful world. There are many in the Islamic world who want that to happen, who encourage it to happen. There is much wrong with the Islamic world, the way they treat women, the way they treat each other, the way they regard non-islamic countries....and the sooner the rest of the world has the courage to stand up and say it out loud, rather than pussyfooting around in an effort to avoid being called racist, when it's the other way round entirely, the better the whole world will become.

Many Israelis are speaking out against what's happening, I would hope that many Palestinians are too. It's all complete madness, but when you have country run by people like Hamas who have an outlook like they do, well...you ain't gonna have peace, that's for sure.

Think on this...

Let's pretend I live next to door to you. On my bedroom wall I have the words, "I am going to obliterate you from this earth and I'll not rest until I've done it!" and you know those words are there because I've shown them to everyone, put it in the paper, been on TV, the whole caboodle...how would you feel?

Would you feel happy about that, purely because if anyone asked me, I'd say "Oh yes, but those are only WORDS. Heyyyyy...I'm really a fun-loving, all round, peace loving, humanity loving kind of gal, who's willing to comply with whatever anyone wants!"...and then, I go back to my homemade charter and write a few more words of hatred and annihilation about you...tapping on your wall each night, just to remind you that I was there..

YEESH!!

WORDS don't matter???????

Of COURSE they ********* do!!

Those words are read, known about, held close to the hearts of many Palestinians...and they're **abided** by as well.

Get real!!

Until the snivelling cowardly b*stards who run Hamas decide to re-write their charter, then nothing will change!

There is a huge amount that's wrong in the Islamic world, a huge amount. There is also much wrong in the non-islamic world too. ALL of it needs to be discussed openly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:21 AM

Have just one and stay up allllll night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:45 AM

We were talking about our own opinions about who should be prosecuted. I would expect Hamas and Hezbollah to be prosecuted before I would ever expect anyone in the government of Israel to be prosecuted.

However, being the only one between the two of us who is not a racist, my opinion is that everyone should be held to the same standard, unlike the above poster who believes that some people are entitled to more rights than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:42 AM

You're one of the most malevolent racists on Mudcat fer krisake. I said it the way I did because you know damned well NO ONE from Hamas or Hezbollah will EVER be prosecuted for war crimes. You think Israel doesn't know that?

SSDD.

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:34 AM

Well, I think a non-racist stance would be to say that both the government of Israel as well as Hamas and Hezbollah should all be prosecuted at the same time. But I don't expect the above poster to ever take such a stance.


Why should some Jewish Mudcatters' preferences take precedence over the preferences of other posters? Think of how hostile the environment here in the Mudcat is for Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. It's too bad that those people felt they had to leave, but that's not a good reason to allow lies and hatemongering to flourish here without being challenged.

What I try to accomplish here is to present the truth. People who can't handle that are the ones with the problem. That should not be a reason to silence people who are fighting for the rights of an oppressed people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:08 AM

I think the people in the Israeli government who ordered the deaths of civilians should be brought to trial for the crimes they ordered committed--the day after Hamas, Hezbollah and other leaders of 'these types of groups' are brought to trial for their crimes. Safe thing to say because we all know that THAT will never happen. This does not include the deaths of people who were in areas that hid weapons. That would be on Hamas' or Hezbollah's hook. They seem to like doing that. And you seem to like losing the plot along with your cool.

Do you really think you have corrected anything? Really? I know for fact you have driven a few Jewish Mudcatters away, but other than that, what do you think you have accomplished?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:31 AM

And my posts on this subject are also for the purpose of correcting the propaganda, lies, distortions, and hatemongering that I see in such abundance here in the Mudcat on the subject of the Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:27 AM

I don't rant about Hamas because, as another poster in this thread has said, when I condemn war crimes committed by Hamas, NOBODY DISAGREES WITH ME.

My criticisms of Israel are in response to the many justifications I see here in the Mudcat for Israel's continued subjugation, genocide, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:24 AM

Well, not the above poster, but the GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:23 AM

Let me rephrase...

I have already said that Hamas and Hezbollah should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that. I await the above poster's statement that the government of Israel should be brought before an international court for war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

Hamas as the Government of the area of Gaza is not universally recognised as the Government of the Palestinian people. It has, like the Taleban in Afghanistan before, been recognised by one or two countries, that being done to yank America's chain more than anything else. While the Taleban were never elected Hamas was and the reason given for not recognising them is their Charter which demands the destruction of a fully recognised member state of the United Nations (i.e. Israel) and the annihilation of her people. That by the bye Don is where the MORAL Right of the matter comes into play.

Take a good look at what the Palestinian Arabs say they are fighting for, what they seek as a solution. Note that this grouping does not include Hamas all they will ever promise Israel is a cycle of truce and conflict. You will discover Don that as a two state solution it amounts to less than they were offered by the UN in 1947.

Sixty-two years of needless conflict Don, a path elected by choice by the Arabs of Palestine, another facet of this problem where MORAL Right comes into play. Ultimately is must end, and while we all recognise this truth and chatter about who should do what, for the combatants the perspective is somewhat different, they are literally fighting for their very existence and if they cannot make peace then one side will die, and the Jews will not just quietly walk into the night again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:22 AM

So why don't you ever rant about Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:19 AM

I have already said that I think Hamas should be brought before an international court for war crimes, so it won't work trying to get me in an argument about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:58 PM

"By the way, the Hamas and the Hezbollah leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. These organizations are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm."

Reads well two ways, huh?

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:42 PM

By the way, the government of Israel and the IDF leadership should be brought before an international court for war crimes, too, and not just the individual soldiers who commit them. The government and the IDF are responsible for creating the rules of engagement that allow these war crimes to be committed, and they don't do anything to stop them from happening. And we're not just talking about a few bad apples. These kinds of things are not an aberration - they are the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:13 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef, 30, said that his decision to abandon his Muslim faith and denounce his father's organisation [Hamas] had exposed his family to persecution in his home town of Ramallah and endangered his own life.

But despite the cost, Mr Yousef told The Daily Telegraph that he is convinced that speaking out about the problems of Islam and the "evil" he witnessed back home would help to address the "messed-up situation" in the Middle East and one day bring about peace and enable him to return.

"I'm not afraid of them, especially as I know that I'm doing the right thing, and I don't see them as my enemies," he said. "I do think about this a lot. But what are they going to do? Are they going to kill me?

"If they want to kill me, let them do it. I'm not going to stop anyone. It's going to be my freedom.

"My soul's going to be free of my body, not flesh any more."

Mr Yousef, who is known as Joseph by friends at the Barabbas Road church in San Diego, California, arrived in America 18 months ago but only recently made "the biggest decision of my life" to go public with his conversion to draw attention to how the Palestinian leadership is "misleading" and exploiting its people.

"Palestinians look really ugly in front of everybody in the world and they are very, very good people ... they are misled, and their picture is very dark because of this leadership.

"They need some help, they need people to stop lying to them, and lying to the world."

Mr Yousef was raised as a Muslim by his politically powerful family. His father, Hassan Yousef, a highly respected sheikh born in the West Bank town of al-Ghaniya near Ramallah, is a founding member of Hamas, whose military wing has instigated dozens of suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel since it was formed in 1987.

Hamas now governs the Gaza strip after ousting the more moderate Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas, whose administration now only controls the West Bank.

Mr Yousef said that the decision to leave the home he loves and his family including five brothers and two sisters had made life hard for them.

"They are definitely suffering because of what I've done," he said. "They are not a regular family, they are a very famous family, and Muslims around the world praise my family, praise my father. So when I came with a step like this, it was impossible to think about, it was crazy.

"I knew from the beginning my family would face an impossible situation. It wasn't their choice but they have had to carry it with me. It's difficult for my mother, she's crying all day long. Every time I talk to her, she's crying."

His mother, Salsabin, told The Daily Telegraph that she and her children were "in daily contact with Mosab" but she declined to comment further on his new life.

Mr Yousef said that his father, who has spent more than a decade in Israeli jails for his involvement with Hamas, was in prison when he "got the worst news in his life" - that his son had become a Christian and left Ramallah. "But at the same time he sent me a message of love.

"Everybody is asking him to disown me. You understand if he disowns me he will give terrorists a chance to kill me. "He loves me as a son and he believes that what I've done was something I believed in, but at the same time it's very difficult for him to understand and he won't be able to understand."

Many saw him as heir apparent to his father, who retains great influence both within Hamas and in Palestinian society, winning election to the Palestinian Legislative Council in January 2006 from his prison cell.

But Mr Yousef said that his questioning of Islam and Hamas began early. His father, a pragmatist who has even suggested Hamas would be willing to talk to Israel under certain conditions, would often accept his concerns, such as the targeting of civilians.

Mr Yousef said that his doubts about Islam and Hamas crystallised when he realised not all Hamas leaders were like his father, a moderate who he describes as "open-minded, very humble and honest".

Mr Yousef said that he was appalled by the brutality of the movement, including the suicide bombers seeking glory through jihad.

"Hamas, they are using civilians' lives, they are using children, they are using the suffering of people every day to achieve their goals. And this is what I hate," he said.

It was after a chance encounter nine years ago with a British missionary that Mr Yousef began exploring Christianity.

He found it "exciting", he said, and began secretly studying the Bible, struck by the central tenet "love your enemies".

Nevertheless he does not advocate the "collapse of Islam", but rather for people to acknowledge that after 1,400 years "it's not working any more".

He said: "It's not taking them anywhere. It's making them look ugly."

He hopes that Muslims will begin to question their religion and "fix it" by rejecting the parts that call for "killing others, cutting hands, cutting legs, torturing people and asking for destruction of entire civilisations".

He said that after he converted to Christianity, he decided he had to escape and "live my life away from violence because I couldn't coexist with that situation as a Christian."

"I was thinking, what is my responsibility now? To see people dying every day or to stand up and say, this is wrong, this is right and be strong about this? So I had to make this move."

He plans to write a memoir about his "transformation" that he hopes will inspire others and to found an international organisation to educate young people about Islam and preach a message of "forgiveness", the only way he thinks "the endless circle of violence" between Israelis and Palestinians can be broken.

"I know this take a longer time, but this is the right way to do it, to build a new generation, a new generation who understand how to forgive, how to love."

It is a vision his new church shares. In a posting on the Barabbas Road website entitled "Joseph's story", the most unlikely member of the congregation is described as "a miracle" who left a society steeped in "brutal and bloody warfare" and instead "turned to Jesus".

"He is most certainly the face of things to come; an Ambassador to those oppressed by Islam. He is passionate about liberating his brothers and sisters from the darkness of a false religion, and living the truth that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light."

Back in the West Bank, however, many are distressed about his move.

"It is upsetting not only to his community and to his family but to all Muslims," said Abdel-Jaber Fuqaha, an Islamist parliamentarian and friend of the family who described Mr Yousef as "a straightforward, observant Muslim".

"But the worst impact is on his family, and his father. This is a thing that is more unique to our Middle Eastern culture. It is the most difficult thing, to convert from one religion to another."

He suggested that Mr Yousef may have been pressured into conversion in exchange for financial help or permission to stay in the US, given his background - allegations Mr Yousef rejects.

"I didn't come to Christianity for money, I came to Christianity because this is the way we can live a better life," he said.

"I love my people. They have the right to live like any other nation on Earth. But at the same time, I want to help them [get] on the right track."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:36 PM

By the way, Hamas was not elected by a majority of Palestinian voters. Fatah had run two factions of its party in that election, so the votes were split three ways and not two ways. Hamas got less than fifty percent of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:34 PM

I see the poster with the ironic screen name has decided to read my posts after all.

As I said, it doesn't matter what the charter says if they agree to abide by the will of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. And they said they would. That's the only thing that really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:29 PM

That is from the Hamas Charter--commentary thereon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:28 PM

'"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:23 PM

And now, to make this a musical thread, this, from Leonard Cohen...

QUESTIONS FOR SHOMRIM:


Written by Leonard Cohen   
Monday, 12 November 2007


And will my people build a new Dachau
And call it love,
Security,
Jewish culture
For dark-eyed children
Burning in the stars
Will all our songs screech
Like the maddened eagles of the night
Until Yiddish, Arabic, Hebrew, and Vietnamese
Are a thin thread of blood clawing up the side of
Unspeaking steel chambers
I know you, Chaverim
The lost young summer nights of our childhood
We spent on street corners looking for life
In our scanty drops of Marx and Borochov.
You taught me the Italian Symphony

And the New World
And gave a skit about blowing up Arab children.
You taught me many songs
But none so sad
As napalm falling slowly in the dark
You were our singing heroes in '48
Do you dare ask yourselves what you are now
We, you and I, were lovers once
As only wild nights of wrestling in golden snow
Can make one love
We hiked by moonlight
And you asked me to lead the Internationale
And now my son must die
For he's an Arab
And my mother, too, for she's a Jew
And you and I
Can only cry and wonder
Must Jewish people
Build our Dachaus, too?

-- Leonard Cohen, poem from 1970's

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:21 PM

Very few Israeli soldiers have been tried for their crimes, and even fewer of them have been punished.

Hamas actually did punish people who fired rockets into Israel during the cease fire last year.

But I wouldn't expect a racist like the poster with the ironic screen name to know anything about what any Palestinians do except for the hasbara propaganda they rely on to help them spread their racist message. (I like this thing about the poster with the ironic screen name not reading my posts. It's so liberating.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:16 PM

Actions are more important than words. Hamas has said they are willing to abide by a decision of the Palestinian people if they vote for a two state solution. Their actions in this regard are far more important than their words.

The government of Israel has long said that they support a two state solution, but their actions show that they are not willing to agree to such a solution. And now, of course, their words also show that they aren't willing to agree to it.

It doesn't matter what Hamas says or what Israel doesn't say if their actions are different than their words. What matters is what they do. Not what they say or don't say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:12 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef

Lots of interesting stuff about this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:57 PM

As a PS--since I have stopped reading ANYthing what'serface has to say, I hope that any (and I mean ANY) soldiers from which ever side of this or any other conflict face severe punishment for intentionally killing civilians. That also extends to kids carrying guns. The bullet doesn't care who pulled the trigger.

I would love to know how many 'soldiers' from Hamas or Hezbollah have been tried and found guilty for killing civilians. I'd bet it's one helluvalot fewer than than have been tried by Israel or the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:49 PM

Hamas IS the elected government, as you say, Don. NOW, go read their Charter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:47 PM

Anyone done a count of how many wars presently involve Islamic countries--that is, countries with Islamic leadership?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:13 PM

""Now go and examine the "other side" and everything becomes slightly murky and traceability and accountability goes straight out of the window. It is very difficult to hold secret organizations to account in the same manner as you can hold a democratically elected government to account""

Last I heard, Hamas WAS the elected, and recognised government of Palestine.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:01 PM

""No it does not, Don. However, it would be refreshing to see you say that now and then.""

Better do a bit more reading then Bruce. This IS at least the tenth time I have said NEITHER SIDE IS MORALLY RIGHT.

I am STILL waiting for ONE Israeli apologist to admit that the IDF have done anything immoral, unethical, or criminal.

That is why this debate continues.

Hamas is wrong to fire rockets into Israel. Of that there is no doubt.

But, try to make the point that it is wrong for IDF soldiers to blow away two children on a roof, who were taking in washing, and a dozen or more posts will surely follow ranting about Hamas rockets.


Nobody wants to address the fact that heavily armed troops were afraid that the kids might harm them by throwing clothes pegs, SO THEY SHOT 'EM!!

Reported initially by an Israeli soldier who witnessed the event, and was sufficiently appalled to blow the whistle.

And that's just one case.

When this is over, would you like to place your bets on which side WILL be condemned for its crimes, and which side WILL not even be asked to account for the actions of its so-called DEFENCE force?

A CLUE!.............Western governments won't even ask the Israelis the question. That's why we are loathed by virtually the whole population of the Middle East region, with the single exception of.......YEP! You've guessed it, ISRAEL.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:28 PM

"It doesn't matter what Hamas' charter says, and what the government of Israel doesn't say."



Actually, it does matter.

It matters so much, that you'd not believe HOW MUCH it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:47 PM

The large military and economic powers in the world have not placed any sanctions on Israel, but they have placed all kinds of sanctions on Iran, Iraq (including invading and occupying that country), Libya, and Syria (and Hamas), while at least some of them have provided Israel with enormous amounts of assistance. And the US has been using its veto in the UN to block all help for the Palestinians.

It doesn't matter what Hamas' charter says, and what the government of Israel doesn't say. It's not necessary for the government of Israel to publish its intentions for all the world to see in order for it to carry out its agenda of removing all Palestinians from Palestine. What they do is what matters, and Israel has been committing genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians (including actually driving them into the sea) for decades, while Hamas hasn't got the ability to do anything of the sort.

There is no reason whatever for the countries of the West to not hold both sides to the exact same standards, and not doing so is a product of White supremacist colonialist attitudes on the part of the rich and powerful countries of the West.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:38 PM

"By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows. "


ABSOLUTELY spot on!

Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:59 AM

"that Israel is the only country involved in the conflict that has not had to face diplomatic consequences for its actions, with the result that it effectively has a mandate to behave how it pleases."

Diplomatic consequences, sanctions, embargoes you name it Israel and the west have had to put up with them from Arab nations. I have been in Norway when they have boycotted all Israeli produce at the behest of the leader of one of the political parties there. Where were you in 1973 when the Arabs used the oil weapon after having once again tried to drive the Jews into the sea and failed. Fortunately for us the Arabs need the oil consuming nations of the west just as much as we need them and their attempt to break us economically failed as well.

By all means give peace a chance but it is not Israel that has a constitution that demands the death of every Arab in Palestine. hamas has to change dramatically before it finds itself acceptable in the civilised world - Do that and all else follows.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:37 AM

There are just as many young Palestinians (and not so young Palestinians) who want it to stop, too. Because the consequences suffered by the Palestinians are far, far greater (by orders of magnitude) than those suffered by the Israelis.

There are just as many YouTube videos showing Israeli hatred of Palestinians. Israeli soldiers regularly shoot at children. Israeli soldiers use Palestinian children as human shields. Israelis went and picnicked near the border with the Gaza strip while Gazans (women, children, old people, non-combatant men, along with Hamas fighters) were being bombed to smithereens, and they celebrated what they were watching, saying they wanted to see it with their own eyes. Young Israeli soldiers left piles of excrement in many of the places they occupied in Gaza during the incursion, and left graffiti on the walls saying "Death to all Arabs".

To only see the problems with the Palestinians and to ignore the same things done by Israelis, and to use this to suggest that Palestinians are inherently worse than Israelis is a manifestation of the same racism that characterizes Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:37 AM

Teribus,

I agree with you about Iran and I accept that the possible solutions to the problems of the middle east are contentious.

But Carols point remains very clear, unaffected, and unchallenged, that Israel is the only country involved in the conflict that has not had to face diplomatic consequences for its actions, with the result that it effectively has a mandate to behave how it pleases.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:02 AM

"Don't be so naive Lizzie.

You don't need to put 9-10 year olds in danger when you have an overwhelming military superiority. You can leave them at home while you do your killing of women and children on somebody else's land."


The Israeli's built themselves a strong army to PROTECT their new country, hell, they needed to. I doubt they thought that all these decades down the line, they'd still be needing such an army, but such is that hatred against the Jewish people out there, that sadly, an army is still needed.

Don, take a look at the Youtube videos if you don't believe me. Read about the child suicide bombers, read how the Israeli Army was told to never fire into children and how Hamas and Hezbollah used the children to hide behind.

Read a book called 'Not Without My Daughter' and focus on the hatred the author found towards America, in Iran. Read how her own daughter was forced (by her Iranian father who'd kidnapped her) to go to a school where a special room was in place, with a US flag painted on the floor, and the little children had to spit on it every single day.

I do NOT believe that Israel brings its children up to hate. So many of the young Israelis want this all to stop. They no longer want war, they no longer want to see anyone killed or maimed, on either side...

I do believe that there are some Israeli soldiers, as there are in all armies, who've completely lost the plot though, who have become so de-sensitised that nothing makes any sense to them anymore. It's no excuse though.

The so called 'leaders' on both sides of this appalling situation need to be taken far out into the desert and left there...leaving the people of both sides to live their lives peacefully.


Warning: The film below is deeply distressing at times.

An Aid Worker talking about the use of Palestinian children as soldiers and suicide bombers

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:03 AM

Approbation and actual sanctions and punishments are two entirely different things. Approbation in the absence of sanctions and punishments are pretty meaningless. Israel may receive some approbation (but never from any Western governments), but it has not been sanctioned or punished in any way, and is, in fact, receiving many billions of dollars of support for its war crimes from people like me who pay taxes in the US. Iran, Iraq under Saddam (and Saddam himself, who was hanged for war crimes), Libya, and Syria, have all been sanctioned and/or punished in various ways. The reason so many people are criticizing Israel so much is precisely because it is allowed to get away with so much without being sanctioned or punished in any way, and because this gives it the ability to do whatever the hell it wants with impunity, and with the backing of the largest military and weapons industry in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:51 AM

"I didn't say that Israel and Hamas should have the same standards (although, personally, I can't see much difference between them). I said that the rest of the world should hold them to the same standard. I realize this might be a tricky difference for some people to understand, but it is, nevertheless, a very big one." – CarolC

Now in all the to-ing and fro-ing on Hamas and Israeli actions CarolC is perfectly correct in what she says above. What is stated here on this forum doesn't amount to much. The plain fact of the matter is that the rest of the world does not hold the opposing sides in this conflict to the same standard openly and transparently. In discussion of this aspect that is where things get slightly skewed, whereas there is much approbation piled on Israel, the US and the UK, there is none piled on Iran, the old Iraq of Saddam Hussein, Libya in former years and Syria for their unwavering support for terrorist organizations intent on murdering Israeli citizens. There again Israel finds itself at a disadvantage in this as it is a recognized country with an elected government and a member state of the United Nations and is thus very easy to be held accountable. The President of Israel is an internationally known figure as are the Prime Minister, Defence Minister, etc, right the way down the line. Now go and examine the "other side" and everything becomes slightly murky and traceability and accountability goes straight out of the window. It is very difficult to hold secret organizations to account in the same manner as you can hold a democratically elected government to account

Lox also made some points and asked some questions:

"So we agree on two points.

1. Hezbollah and Hamas have no right to target Israeli civilians.

2. Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards.


So what remains to be discussed?


well the only discussion left is that concerning the Israeli governments policy in Gaza.


Do they have the right to target civilians?"

On point 1 above Lox let's hear massed calls for Hamas to revise its Charter which still to this day calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews in what it sees in "Palestine". If the Sheeba Farms is the only bone of contention left between Hezbollah and the Israelis (Hezbollah only fight Israel while Israel occupies Lebanese territory according to Hezbollah) then let's hear calls for that problem to be resolved by discussion, unfortunately the fly in the ointment here is of course that Syria also claim that small lump of land, but I cannot see Hezbollah fighting Syria over it, can you??

On point 2 I totally agree.

The point remaining, the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza, so what is the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza? Were Hamas to stop launching attacks from Gaza by themselves and others based in Gaza the border crossings would be opened. If Hamas and Palestine Authority officially recognize the right of Israel to exist and the rights of the citizens of Israel to live their lives in peace free from threat of attack then Palestinians would stop being targeted and killed. Only trouble is that this approach has never been attempted has it?? Because both sides have not been held accountable to the same standard.

Lox also asks the question: "Do they have the right to target civilians?" The "they" isn't defined, it could refer to the Israeli Government? Or the Israeli Armed Forces? Judging from what went before I take it to mean the Israeli Government. Well the situation facing the Israeli Government isn't as simple as that is it Lox. A fairer, more honest question, would be couched in the following terms if as you say everybody should be held to the same standards; "Does the Israeli Government have the right to target civilians while its own civilians are under attack from firing positions located illegally within centres of civilian population?"

And the answer to that question is yes they do have the right to self defence before all other considerations.

"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the freedom to trade with the outside world," – See above for the political moves that would guarantee the opening of those crossings, another important factor would be that the import of weapons and munitions by Hamas for attacks on Israel would have to stop.


"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the right to urgent medical attention" – The Israelis have never completely shut off medical or humanitarian supplies from Gaza to say that they have is a myth. During the last incursion it was Hamas who prevented Palestinians from accessing medical facilities set up by the Israelis.

"I believe that the Israeli governments stranglehold on basic palestinian human rights in Gaza has created the conditions under which violence has erupted and I am nauseated at the Israeli governments grossly disproportionate reaction to that violence.

That is my opinion."

The people who have always exercised a stranglehold on basic human rights of the "Palestinian" people (Please note Palestinian human rights are no different from anybody else's, even basic Israeli human rights) have been their political overlords who for 60 years have kept the Palestinian people in poverty and despair. Had those "leaders" accepted the UN two state solution offered in 1947 none of this would ever have happened and there would have been no displaced persons and the "Palestinians" would have more than they say they are fighting for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:58 PM

(Not the part about war itself being a crime against humanity, but the other part.) At least that's what I've been working toward for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:56 PM

Maybe that will change.