BS: Breastfeeding In Public

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM

Ake said his wife nursed their children. That she wouldn't do it in public - I think she is also a generation or two older than the women nursing today, a more modest generation. My mother didn't have enough information or help from the doctor and didn't nurse any of us for more than a couple of weeks ("you don't have enough milk, give them a bottle" was his answer, instead of understanding that babies go through growth spurts and you nurse through them extra for a few days and then everything is fine - it's a demand and supply system). More power to Ake's wife for nursing her children in a time when a lot of women didn't know how. I suspect he enjoyed watching them - because it is pretty amazing to watch a child nurse at it's mother's breast.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:02 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Who? When? I have NEVER seen or heard of this happening. You mean many "silly" women have a baby just so they can cause a fuss over feeding in public?

I have on the other hand, heard of others choosing to turn this into an "issue, just to cause a fuss", when the mum quietly feeding her baby was nothing whatever to do with them.

And that makes me very angry.

So it should. But I should like to point out, lest it be overlooked, that the perpetrator of the post you quite rightly take exception to (as do I) is Akenaton. A man who is well-known here for his illiberal (aka homophobic) views on gay people and on gay marriage and on anything else, it appears, that impinges on bodies and sex and caring properly for infants. Very, very nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:55 PM

In other words, attitudes are not absolute, they are culturally ingrained. So who is the one with the problem? The one doing what comes naturally, or the one who, as a result of their cultural conditioning, finds it offensive?

Just a couple of rather basic points here. First, babies need feeding. Second, no-one on this planet has the right to be not offended. The very best way to feed a baby is by breast-feeding. Substitutes just don't measure up. If you see a woman breast-feeding, you are one hundred and ten percent at liberty to not watch. If you watch, then complain, you are a bloody pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:52 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Who? When? I have NEVER seen or heard of this happening. You mean many "silly" women have a baby just so they can cause a fuss over feeding in public?

I have on the other hand, heard of others choosing to turn this into an "issue, just to cause a fuss", when the mum quietly feeding her baby was nothing whatever to do with them.

And that makes me very angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:12 PM

"The sensitivities of others" - who choose to be offended. I don't give them the time of day.

Human are mammals and mammals feed their babies milk. It's that simple. And when you add in the human development benefits of the eye contact between a nursing child and mother, nothing is more natural or perfect. those who choose to get bent out of shape make that choice based upon flawed understanding of how important it is for babies to nurse at their mothers' breasts.

Years ago now, in Central Texas, my husband and I had our daughter with us at a friend's restaurant one evening. A Chinese restaurant. My daughter was fussing and my friend (from Taiwan) came by to point out that she gave us that booth so we had some privacy because in China it was perfectly acceptable for mothers to nurse children in public. I could nurse and eat and talk with others, and my daughter was pretty much hidden by both the table and a small blanket I carried in her diaper bag. Not only did my my friend make it possible, she made it clear that in parts of the world it is expected that you nurse a hungry baby when they are hungry.

Those of us who successfully nursed children for a long period of time until the child was ready to be weaned (about 2 1/2 years) owe it to other mothers to be supportive and offer helpful advice, or run interference, as needed.

Salma Hayek has a great, and very natural attitude toward nursing.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:39 PM

Alternatively, perhaps one group of insensitive assholes demanding everyone else conforms to their view of the world... Every coin has two sides, Greg.

As Eliza has already pointed out, tits (yes, I'm being deliberately spiky) are no big deal in Africa. Defecation is no big deal in some parts of the world either. I seem to remember something I once read about Japanese parents lifting their small son up so he could crap out of the window of a moving train. Shit is clean, or words to that effect, was the explanation i.e. it's no big deal; certainly much more polite than trampling through many fellow commuters on a crowded train. So they thought...

In other words, attitudes are not absolute, they are culturally ingrained. So who is the one with the problem? The one doing what comes naturally, or the one who, as a result of their cultural conditioning, finds it offensive?

I'm not subscribing to any particular point of view here. I'm a bloke. If I need to pee, I'll pee as discreetly as I possibly can. In a toilet for preference; up a dark alleyway, in the bushes, or as close to the tree trunk as I can get, if that's what available & I'm busting. What's the big deal?

Why anyone feels the need to fuss about breast-feeding is beyond me. If you don't like it, look away. Is that so hard? Who is the one being inconsiderate?

It's about the 5th most natural function in the world. You can't get by without sleeping, eating, and defecating. Shagging is optional, but necessary from the point of view of the species. No breast-feeding without shagging.

If you see what I mean... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:09 PM

Plenty of adult men do not consider the sensibilities of others when needing to pee.

So one group of insensitive assholes legitimizes another group of the same?

Wonderful. Or fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:49 PM

To be fair to akenaton, perhaps he's talking about a time some years ago, when, as his wife found, breast-feeding in public wasn't quite so acceptable. Another point I feel needs to be made is that young babies get very distressed and frantic when hungry. It can be upsetting for the mother when her baby is screaming for a feed. One can't tell the little scrap to wait until nobody's looking! I also get annoyed when people suggest the mum heads for a public toilet. I couldn't think of a more ghastly place to sit and feed one's baby. I admit that I've never been blessed with a child, so can't speak from personal experience, but it only requires a modicum of kindness and concern to sympathise with mums and babies in this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Like, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:11 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.
I agree with Bill AND Dave here, babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.
My wife breast fed our children, but would never have done so in public, she considered it a very private and personal time between mother and child.

How nice of you to agree that babies need to be fed. You are a complete and utter disgrace. You shouldn't be allowed out of your bloody house.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Major Mustard
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:10 PM

Natural?its natural for Homo Sapiens to walk around naked.
But society does not allow it, thank god, Tunbridge Wells would be disgusting if they allowed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Plenty of adult men do not consider the sensibilities of others when needing to pee. Though I haven't seen one doing it in a restaurant - and it never used to happen when I was younger.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:28 PM

So Gnu- one need not consider the sensibilities of others?

Whu Gnu!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Musket
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:05 PM

Silly women. Feminists....

Leopards and spots spring to mind.

I reckon the threads on creationism have forget a factor. Dinosaurs haven't died just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:54 PM

More power to the strident feminists. And a pox on repressionists like Akenhateon.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:51 PM

I read as far as the third post which was by SRS. I ditto SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM

Having seen babies in Africa spend the first 18 months of their lives on their mums' back, being swung round to feed at any time, and while their mothers are seated, being held within inches of the breast for comfort as well as for suckling, I feel that anthropologists should consider the basic animal need of a baby (of any mammalian species) for this access and reassurance. If strident feminists are making an issue of it all, perhaps the best way to defuse their capers is to make no fuss at all about nursing mums. That way, the activists wouldn't have anything to demonstrate about. (Rather like the Suffragettes. Once they got the vote, all went quiet.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:01 PM

Fair enough DtG. I am not looking for an argument either, that was just how I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:45 PM

I believe in being able to do it in public spaces, but I think that the mother should attempt modesty as well...different if you are just with friends etc. Modesty is easy in cool weather with a tiny baby and as things get warmer and baby gets bigger it gets more difficult but you can still turn to the side or whatever usually. When the kid gets old enough to have a conversation about it...might be an idea to reserve for nighttime feedings..but that is up to parents. Some women can be pretty blatant...and anthropologists have pointed out that nursing is not the only major purpose of the breast...otherwise humans would be sort of like apes..not too much there..it has evolved as a strong visual cue to inspire mating behavior and to dismiss that aspect of it is ignoring biology.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.
I agree with Bill AND Dave here, babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.
My wife breast fed our children, but would never have done so in public, she considered it a very private and personal time between mother and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:34 PM

I am not arguing, KB. I was not attempting to make a comparison. If that is how you saw it I apologise for my poor Iowan :-) If you do not accept that, fair enough, but please don't try to tell me what I meant to say.

Thanks

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

Well, it is and it isn't, if you know what I mean Bert. This poor lady was asked by the pub manager to go away and do 'it' somewhere in private (such as the toilet!!) Another was chased out of a hospital dept where she was having a blood test. Her husband was with her and could hold the baby while she gave the blood, however the newborn little one was screaming hungry and needed a feed. But the dept secretary told her off. A passing nurse found her a private room to do the dirty deed in. But she was in tears. I do admire the Scots, Jack. I've read your link and that's a good Law.
NHS advisors are trying to promote 'breast is best' but it's no good IMO treating it like a rather distasteful and embarrassing act, needing a special place for it to happen. Babies should be popped on the breast whenever and wherever they need a feed. Why not? I don't see it as being in the same category as defecating or weeing in public, which presents a health risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

Back in the 1930s I remember that a few of the Indian women who came to sell their wares in my home town, Santa Fe, would nurse in public. The Anglo and old Latino population to which I belonged regarded it as a primitive expression.

Today, the Indians no longer do it, bending to the "societal norm."

A silly convention, but one inherited from our Western European origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:18 PM

One of our nieces was in the peace corp in Africa for awhile just before she got married; when she became a mom, she just pushed her top up or down as convenient and fed the little one. The wife of one of our nephews strolled around talking with people at his cousins pre-wedding dinner with their little son openly attached. They're the only two women I've seen breastfeed that openly in many years. In either instance, my only problem was keeping from making an idiot of myself by burbling something about how beautiful it was.

Some Mudcat folks helped me title this carving a few years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Bert
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:07 PM

I'm with you Eliza, it is quite normal. I thought it was culturally acceptable in England, I know it used to be when I was there.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:01 PM

Social conventions can change over time. After all, the Victorians were shocked if they saw an ankle, but one wouldn't march topless into M&S (although having seen their spring collection, it might cheer things up a bit) But I feel so sorry for these little mums being tutted at and disparaged simply for feeding their babies. Why should they hide 'it' under a blanket? People who are embarrassed should just look at something else while they pass. No-one is asking them to go up and look. I remember in the sixties when topless sunbathing came into fashion on Mediterranean beaches. I was all for it and got amazed stares from some Moroccan camel-ride chaps. It was inappropriate in a Muslim country, but they accepted it on the beach. I just wish people would be more tolerant generally. If I saw anyone being nasty to a feeding mum. I'd have something to say. People should try a bit of kindness and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:47 PM

Someday I would like to interview... at length... someone who is 'offended' by the practice. I'd like to know exactly what they are upset over. Surely it is not hungry babies. I assume it is an obsession with the *idea* of a breast being 'exposed'... and even if there is no exposure, they seem to be uncomfortable with the fact that the baby is making them 'aware' of a breast. And this indicates to me that those who object have likely categorized breasts as *primarily* sexual objects and can't get out of that mindset, even when it is not relevant.

Somehow, it reminds me of the old joke about the guy taking the Rorschach ink blot test and seeing naughty images in each one... and when asked why, replies, "But doctor, you're the one with the dirty pictures."

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:21 PM

The situation has improved in Scotland:

Breastfeeding Act (2005)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM

Sorry, DtG but when I reread your comment I still think you were making a comparison. You mention two other bodily functions that many people don't want to see, just like many people don't want to see breastfeeding. How is that not a comparison?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM

DtG compared it to defecating in public

No I didn't! I said feeding, procreating and defecating are all natural functions. As is, apparently, getting hold of the wrong end of the stick :-(

You are quite right about social convention though and the point I was trying to make is that it is a very fine line between what is and what is not socially acceptable.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM

IOf the breastfeeding mothers would display a little restraint, common sense and respect for others, there would be no problem & breast feding could go on unimpeded.

This is not always true. A while back at a restaurant nearby a woman was breastfeeding in a very discreet way (that was never debated) and she was still asked to leave. She was out of the way and covered up.

It is purely social convention that makes it taboo and that would take time to change but change it could. DtG compared it to defecating in public, I don't think they are quite the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM

If the breastfeeding mothers would display a little restraint, common sense and respect for others, there would be no problem & breast feeding could go on unimpeded.

However, I expect that's too much to hope for.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:56 AM

I certainly have no issue with it and actively campaigned for when my little 'uns were little enough to benefit. However, I am not fully convinced that it is OK simply because it is natural. It is perfectly natural to perform other bodily functions too, procreation and defecation springing to mind immediately, but I don't think many would really want to witness either in public. It is a very fine line as to where rights stop and sensitivities begin. Maybe all things need to be considered rather than have a blanket (no pun intended, Rap) rule that covers all?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:32 AM

"Many people feel the sight is distasteful . . . " Too bad for them, they are in need of rewiring their understanding of what is natural and appropriate. It's one of the most beautiful things to participate in or to view. I agree with Eliza.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:30 AM

A light blanket goes a long way to protecting both the mother and the baby from chilling drafts and stares.

Subject: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:27 AM

There's quite a fracas going on here in UK at the moment about women breastfeeding their babies in full view of the public. A woman was asked to remove herself from view outside a pub, and another from a hospital department. We have a Law which forbids discriminatory actions against mothers, but many people feel the sight is distasteful. There have been vituperative complaints from both sides. Personally I think there's no sight more tender and delightful than seeing a woman suckling her child, and I wouldn't care wherever she did so. IMV we need to encourage young mums to offer the breast as it's so much better for the child's health and well-being. I suppose we just aren't used to it. In Africa of course, breasts are no big deal. Even without a baby attached, ladies go about 'topless' if the day is particularly hot. I never minded this either. Most babies in hot countries are breast fed as it prevents germs from bottles getting into the little one's system. Anyone got any views either way?