I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for that observation, thurg.

If that premise holds up, then maybe "class" {ie income} is a significant factor, since usually poorer kids have less opportunity to go to summer camps than kids whose families have more money.

It seems to me that most collectors gather the lyrics of children's rhymes and fail to document alot of other demographics that I think may be important. Often the only demographics that collectors sometimes note for their non-adult informants are nationality, age, and gender. I'm of the opinion that other variables should be documented as these demographics may influence which types of rhymes the children recite, the meaning of certain slang terms found in the rhymes, the inclusion of famous persons mentioned in the rhyme, and how [and why] the rhymes are performed the way they are or the way they were performed.

As an example of this premise, it's my opinion that 'being [mentally & emotionally] tough [also known as 'bening hard'] is an important coping mechanism and survival strategy among poor urban residents {without regard to race]. In African American urban poor communities, from a very early age some children are socialized to be tough and stoic. When something bad happens to them, children and adults are supposed to "suck it up" {meaning show no outward reaction, and keep whatever sadness or disappointment and especially any fear that they are feeling inside them}. A stern face, or mean face or smirk is greatly preferred to a sad or sacred face or een a hopeful demeanor. My interpretation of this is that if a person shows grief, or fear, or even hopefulness that would signal vulnerability that could be exploited by another person.

As a foster care caseworker, I have seen a birth mother start this toughing up regiment with her less than one year old son. During once a week two hour visits with her son, this 20 year old African American birth mother often talked to him about being tough. She "played" with her son by pretending to punch him {complete with 'pow' 'pow' 'pow'} sound effects}. And she chided him for being a 'punk' or a wimp if he started crying. This birth mother critized her son's foster mother for not raising her son to be tough enough. "Class" and/or differences in these women's backgrounds & lifestyles have much more influence than race in how the birth mother and the foster mother would parent this child. Both of these two women are Black. They happen to live less than 5 minutes apart by car in the same section {but not the same neighborhood} of the same city. The birth mother is a non-church going woman who was incarcerated as a young teen. She was raised in public housing developments, and lived in a public housing apartment until she was evicted for failure to pay her rent. The birth mother was on welfare until her child was removed from her. She now has no legal income. In contrast, the foster mother comes from a church going, tightly knit, working class family. She lives in a rental house, works ouside the home, and receives income for being a foster child. Because this particular child has engaged in more aggressive behavior toward his foster mother and other children in the home after his visits with his birth mother, the foster mother guessed that the child's birth mother is 'teaching him how to fight'.

What does this have to do with children's rhymes? Well, I think that this "be hard' value is found througout a large number of African American children's rhymes. As an example, at the end of the
"I Don't Want to go to Mexico" handclap rhyme, the two children {usually girls] doing the handclap routine try to be the first one to slap the other one on the forehead. The child who is slapped is supposed to laugh it off.

I don't think that was a part of the original "I Don't Want To Go To Macys". rhyme.

Maybe kids who have to been toughened up and who are concerned about day to day survivals don't have time to cross themselves or others' out with 'great big globs' types of rhymes. Or maybe it would be counter to their 'hard as nails' culture to show any response at all to these yucky rhymes.

And maybe it's just that the rhymes aren't percussive enough. I don't know. Maybe I'm far off base with these speculations.

And maybe I'm not.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:27 AM

Azizi - An observation about the gross stuff. I don't remember any of those types of songs from the schoolyard - however, they were very popular at summer camp. Don't know why the difference, but there was always a lot of singing at camp and not much chanting, but lots of chanting in the schoolyard (especially in the girls' games) and not much singing. Don't know how this jibes with other people's experience ...

I'm talking white kids here, but I have a hunch you might find the same things with black kids where you can find a bunch who go to summer camp.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:49 PM

I am nice and you are pooh

What I just stepped in smells like you.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM

great big gobbs of
greasy grimey gopher guts
mutilated monkey meat
little dirty birdy feet
fried eyeballs all
floating in a pool of blood
I forgot my spoon
but I brought a straw

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM

Tannywheeler & others:

Since 1997 to date I've been doing formal presentations on children's rhymes and informal interactions with [mostly African American] children in [mostly] the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area. As part of my presentation, I ask children what rhymes they know. Actually, I ask them what "songs" they know, because that seems to be the term that they use for handclapping and other 'street' rhymes.

In all of that time, no individual children nor any groups of children ever volunteered that they knew the "great big globs of mutiliated monkey meat etc." rhyme. Nor in that time period or before have I ever heard any child "sing" this rhyme [or for that matter, other what I call "gross out" rhymes". I'm wondering if this rhyme and other rhymes of that genre aren't as well known among African American children as they appear to be among European-American children.

And if that is so, could it be because these rhymes aren't usually performed with hand-clapping routines, or foot stomping movements, It seems to me that percussive handclap routines or foot stomping routines are a common feature of African American contemporary 'street' rhymes.

Any thoughts about this?

****

Tannywheeler:
Thanks for posting that "I was walking down the street" rhyme. This rhyme is new to me.

Do I understand you to say that the kids take turns saying either the A or B sections in a call & response like format? And is any handclapping or other movements done with this rhyme?

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:16 PM

Az, the one that starts "Great big gobs of..." --the way I remember the next line is "Mutilated monkey meat..."
I heard this one said a few times when a kid(late '40s, early '50s), but it made me nauseous and never could bring myself to repeat it, so don't remember the whole thing.

This is one my kids started bringing home from public school in the mid '70s. It is a song--verses have an A section, and B section. It goes A, B, A, B, B. The school my kids attended was multi-racial--some white, some black, some Hispanic, a few Asian. Don't know which group originated it, but my guess as to time is 20thcent. as it refers to national brand names, billboards, sidewalks.

A)"As I was walking down the street a billboard caught my eye.
   The advertisements written there would make you laugh and
         cry.
   The signs were torn & tattered from a storm the night before--
   And as I gazed upon it, this is what I saw:"
B)"Smoke Coca-cola cigarettes. Chew Wrigley's spearmint beer.
   Ken-L Ration dog food makes your wife's complexion clear.
   Simoniz your baby with Hershey's candy bars.
   Crystal Drano makes the difference in all the movie stars!"
A)"When I recovered from my shock I went upon my way.
   I'd gone no farther than a block when there, to my dismay,
   Another billboard caught my eye & like the one before--
   The wind & rain had done its work and this is what I saw:"
B)"Take your next vacation in your brand new Frigidaire.
   Learn to play piano in your winter underwear.
   Chew chocolate-covered mothballs--they always satisfy.
   Brush your teeth with Lifebuoy Soap and watch the suds
       flow by."
B)"Doctors prove that babies shouldn't smoke 'til after 3.
   People over 35 take baths in Lipton Tea.
   You can make this country a better place today;
   Just buy a record of this song and THROW IT FAR AWAY!!!"
We all had this song down pat before my oldest turned 11, which makes it about 1977. The kids, of course, had it almost immediately. My husband and I had to keep asking for their help, but finally stopped needing that.      Tw

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,C
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:55 PM

My band-mate and I put this one to music, and we play it to the delight of most of the other girls our age, which is now mid-late 20s. It was really popular in the 80's, in the South anyway:

"Miss Susie had a steamboat
the steamboat had a bell
Miss Susie went to heaven
The steamboat went to...

Hello operator
please give me number nine
and if you disconnect me
I'll chop off your...

Behind the refrigerator
there was a piece of glass
Miss Susie sat upon it
and cut her little...

Ask me no more questions
I'll tell you no more lies
the boys are in the bathroom
zipping up their...

Flies are in the meadow
Bees are in the park
The boys and girls are kissing in the...

D-A-R-K-D-A-R-K-D-A-R-K DARK DARK DARK!"


My daughter taught me this one recently:

"Apples on a stick just make me sick

Make my heart go two-forty-six

Not because I'm dirty

Not because I'm clean

Not because I kissed a boy behind a magazine!"

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 31 May 06 - 12:36 AM

It occurred to me that I don't think I've seen mention in any of these children's rhymes discussions (the ones I've read!) of this "elimination" rhyme that was popular in my neighbourhood in Windsor, Ontario, in the 1960's:

Engine, engine, number nine,
Going down Chicago line;
If the train goes off the track,
Do you want your money back?

"Yes" (or "No") -

Y-E-S spells yes
and you are not it!

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:58 PM

Hello, Guest Spain!!

Thanks for posting a date for that U-G-L-Y rhyme. I thought that it was recited by children before that Wildcat movie, and your information appears to confirm that.

Here's another verse to that "Tweedleelee" or "Rockin Robin" hand clap rhyme:

I went downtown to get a stick of butter
I saw James Brown poopin * in the gutter
He had a piece of glass
stuck up his butt **
I never saw a Black man run so fast

Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweeleelee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweeleelee

* also recited as "laying" in the gutter

** also recited as "ass";I'm told that some children selff-censor this word in front of adults and substitute the word "butt"; however I don't believe that is always the case; some children believe the real word is "butt" even though it doesn't rhyme

****

"Rockin Robin"/"Tweeleelee" {or a similar name}appears to be very widely known by children, youth, and adult [women probably more than men] from the mid or late 1970s on [the date corresponds to The Jackson's recording of Rockin Robin]. Besides for my [adopted] home area of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the geographical attributions of the examples I've collected are Erie, PA; Cleveland, Ohio, Pittsburgh, New York City, Connecticut; West Virgina, Washington D.C., and Georgia. Except for a Latina woman in New York City, and a Filipino/White woman in West Virgina, all of the informants who gave me their racial/ethnicity information [or who I observed performing this rhyme] have been African American.

I'm interested in knowing if this rhyme is well known among
non-African American populations.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Spain
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:30 AM

I heard the "ugly" chant in Boston in various summer camps in the late 70s. I've always assumed its even older than that. There was also the street Rockin Robin that I heard/played in the same camps.

Tweedily diddly dee(3x)
tweet tweet, your breath stinks.

Rockin' in the treetop all day long
huffin' and a puffin' just singin' that song
all the little birdies on jail bird street
love to hear the birdies go tweet tweet tweet

Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
All the little birdies on jail bird street tonight
tweet tweet tweet

Momma's in the kitchen, cookin' rice
Daddy's on the corner, shootin' dice
Brother's in jail, raisin' hell
Sister's on the corner selling fruit cock tail

Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
Rockin' robin tweet tweet tweet
All the little birdies on jail bird street tonight
tweet tweet tweet

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:47 AM

"Brickwall Waterfall" is another VERY popular rhyme that was also included in the 2003 American movie "Dickie Roberts; Former Child Star".

Though I have no proof, and though I'm not a betting person, if I were a betting person, I'd put alot of money on my opinion that "Brickwall Waterfall" came from some kids in the street and was then taken up by that movie's writers. But without any doubt, I'd also say that more kids are chanting the in-your-face-with-loads-of attitude rhyme "Brickwall Waterfall" because it was featured in that Dickie Roberts movie. I mentioned a bit of that rhyme in an earlier post on this thread, but here's a couple of examples of that rhyme that were sent to my website {linked above}:

Brick wall Water Fall {Example #3}
When ur talking to me all im thinking is , Brickwall water fall, (name) thinks they no it all, You don't so i say boom wid that attutude pinch punch captin crucnch i have something you can't touch bang,bang cho cho tran you wind me up i do my thing no reason piece of 7up mess wid me i'll mess u up.
this is for girls of any years that want to show off
-kenisha, 3/8/2006 {England}; Cocojams

-snip-

also see this version of that rhyme:

A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}{Example #6}
it's called A-B-C Hit It! {and/ or Brickwall Waterfall}. It goes:
A-B-C Hit It! That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh.
That's the way Uh-Uhh I like it Uh-Uhh. Brickwall Waterfall
Girl you think you know it all. You don't. I do. So Poof with the Attitude. Peace Punch Captain Crunch. I got something you can't touch.
Bang Bang Cho Cho Train. Wind me up I'll do my thing.
Yummy Yummy 7Up Mess with me I'll beat you up. Wait, Come back.
I think you need a Tic Tac. Not 1 Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack. I'm not trying to be mean but you need some Listerine. Not a sip not a swallow. But the whole dang bottle.

{PS. To the owner of this website usually the Brickwall rhymes are games you play with your hands. Thanks!!!}
-lauren snyder S.A T.X ro ; 5/7/2006- Cocojams

****

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:22 AM

Hello, GuestSpain.

Here's a second verse that was performed by 'urban' high school cheerleaders on the 1986 movie "Wildcat":

M-O-M-M-A
That is how you got that way
Your Momma
Hey Hey*
Your Momma.

* Instead of "Hey Hey", I've also seen examples of "Yeah Yeah" or "What What"

-snip-

Btw, I think that "Wildcats" got "U-G-L-Y" from the kids. But I'd bet that the rhyne gained in popularity because of its inclusion in that movie. The earliest date I've been given for this rhyme is from the 1980s {Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania}, but it might have been chanted earlier than that in Pittsburgh or elsewhere}.

Here's another example that was sent to my website http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm :

U-G-L-Y {Version #2}
U-G-L-Y
You aint got no alibi U ugly Yeah Yeah U ugly
M-A-M-A how did U get that way UR mama Yeah Yeah UR mama
D-A-D-D-Y U dont even kno the guy UR daddy Yeah Yeah UR daddy
-Cherry, 2/15/2006

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Spain
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:51 AM

Teaching English is Spain and my students love these types of rhymes the best. Originally from Boston surprised not to see:

U - G - L - Y
You ain't got no alibi
you're ugly
that's right
you're ugly

There is a second phrase about "your momma", but I don't remember it.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Abbie from Arizona
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 01:56 AM

I don't have any new rhymes to add, but I'd like to give you the versions of a couple that I grew up with, in Southern California in the late 80's and early 90's:

Down by the banks of the Hanky Panky
Where the bullfrogs jump (sometimes we said "croak" instead) from bank to banky
With an eep, opp, soda-pop
With an eep, opp...ker-plop!

I was also surprised by the word differences in this one from what you put down (I'm not sure if you heard it as a rhyme or as a song. Ours had a definite melody, though- pretty whiney and screechy):

Great green globs of greasy grimey gopher guts
Mutilated monkey meat
Itty-bitty birdy feet
All wrapped up in a package full of porpoise pus
Swimming in a pool of blood

My mom also taught me one from her childhood (1960's southern California):

Acka-backa soda-cracka
Acka-backa-boo
Acka-backa soda-cracka
I see you! (it might've been "out goes you," now that I think of it)

demographics for mine are pretty much all white kids. The frog one was just girls, whereas everybody did the gopher guts one. Not sure about the soda cracker one, since I wasn't there.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: dulcimer42
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM

My mother said kids used to say this, where she grew up in an orphanage in Indiana.... that would have been in the early 1900's

(Suzie)'s mad, and I'm glad and I know what will please her: a bottle of ink to make her stink, a bottle of wine to make her shine, and a little N----- boy to please her.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,guest guest
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

Ms. Suzy was a baby all she did was cry cry cry, when Ms. Suzy was a kid all she did was lie lie lie, when Ms. Suzy was a teenager all she said was leave me a lone lone lone, then Ms. suzy was a adult buying her first home home home, then Ms. Suzy was a mother her kids were just the same same same, she said the were not like her but that they were a big pain pain pain, then Ms. Suzy was a grandma and left when she heard the church bell bell bell, but she did not leave for church so she will go to h*** h*** h***, when Ms. Suzy was on her death bed she told her kids keep well well well, and if you get to poor my body you can sell selll sell!

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Hand ruler!
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:10 PM

Key
* is Clap



Ms. Sue * * * scooby do *** Ms. Sue from Alabama,Alaska,Maraska eatin in a rocker eatin Betty Crocker watchin the clock go tick - tock tick - tock a weena beena tick - tock tick -tock ABCDEFG wipe those dog germs off of me... turn out the lights and freeze................. unfreeze

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber. You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,BNP
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:02 PM

Miss Lucy has a tugboat the tugboat had a bell the tugboat went to heaven Miss Lucy went to


Hello Operator dial me number nine if you disconnect me I'll kick your fat

Behind the bed there lay a piece of glass Miss Lucy thought it would be funny if she broke her brothers

Asssk me no more questions tell me no more lies the boys are in the bathtub pooping out dead flies.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 11:18 AM

It goes, Liar liar, pants on fire
hanging on the telephone wire

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Robin Madge
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM

My mother(84) says the following and claims she learnt it as a children's rhyme

Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat
Please put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny a farthing will do
If you haven't got a farthing a shoe(sic) will do
If you have'nt got a shoe then God bless you.

This is from Somerset U.K. and is fairly common around the country except for the "shoe" line. My theory is that it is a corruption of "sou" and dates back to when french and other foreign currency was accepted in England.

Robin Madge

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:13 AM

In the @80s in cheshire UK my childrens friends used
Liar, liar
Pants on fire
Also when deciding who would have first turn
First the worst
Next the best
Third the...
(dirty soldier?? drunken sailor?)
I cant remember the rest, we never said it as children
EFDSS have brought out a book about playground rhymes recently aimed at teachers.

Subject: RE: i see london i see france....
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:15 PM

Does anyone remember the "Tarzan the Jungle Man" song? When he swims
across the river aligators flee..there's never been another, since the world began like Tarzan the Jungle Man. Also the Little Train
Who Went Achow (sneezed) Once there was a chow chow..All the little
children laughed at him and teased him, sticks & stones they threw
cause he was going Achow 'stead of going cho-cho like the other cho
cho trains do. The children were playing on the track one day when the cho-cho was headed their way..he knew he couldn't stop & he couldn't turn back.. so he went achow and blew them off the track..now they wait for hours, shower him with flowers when he comes
in view..so ends the story of the little train who blew his nose.
I remember these songs from the '50's but I dont have all the words.
Let me know if you remember these lines, so I can teach them to my
grandkids!

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 01:34 PM

TTTO Sweet Rosie O'Grady:

She swallowed some poison,

But dying by inches was hard,

So she went out in the alley

And lay down and died by the yard.

I don't know the rest of it.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Those who believe only what they can prove can generally prove everything they want to believe. :||

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 08:42 PM

Here are two examples of "Concentration" from a website called "Wheee! Blog". These posts are used with permission from that site moderator and are provided as they were found {with misspelling etc}:

"Um i can remember consentraition goes like...

Consentration *clap clap clap*
64 *clap clap clap*
no repeats*clap clap clap*
or heastitations*clap clap clap*
ill go first *clap clap clap*
u'll go second *clap clap clap**continues to how many ppl their are*
the catergory is *clap clap clap*
ANYTHING *thats u want it to be and begin naming things that has to do with that catergory and u cant repeat or heastate and the catergory can be literally anything like anything its self and clap in between*

posted by Karie at September 21, 2003

-snip-

"wats up. i know one it goes:

the game is clap clap clap
concentration clap clap clap
no repeats clap clap clap
or hesitations clap clap clap
catagorization clap clap clap
(what ever you pick) clap clap clap

posted by j-me at April 26, 2005


Click Wheee! Blog for more examples of contemporary children's school yard rhymes.

****

More comments on "Concentration": This is another game that is good for teaching mental alertness {not to mention good sportmanship and other social skills}.

The girls and boys stand in a wide circle. In Pittsburgh I have heard the words as follows:


Concentration
No repeats or hesitations
Name of ____

On "name of" someone selects a category such as "Girl's Names" , "Fruits", "Sports".

While reciting the first part of the rhyme {"Concentration, no repeat or hesitation, name of ___ ", each child alternately claps the hands of the children standing on either side, and his or her own hands. When clapping the hands of the children standing on either side one palm is up and the other palm is down.

The game then is played almost like "Clap Billyeola", but without the hand slapping. One at a time, in clock wise order, each child has to quickly name something in the declared category-and there can be no repeats or hesitations. If the child names something that doesn't belong to that category, or if he or she hesitates, or repeats a word, or object that had been previously given, he or she is "Out".

The object of the game is to be the last person remaining. That person is "The Winner".


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 08:15 PM

"Slap Billyola" is a group elimination handclap game that I first heard about from my daughter and her friends in Pittsburgh, PA in the 1980s. However, I believe from reading Internet websites on games that this game and similar group handclap games -Strolla Ola Ola" and "Stella Ola Ola" are widely known.

Here are the words:

Slap Billyola
slap, slap, slap. [these words are said]
Sandarico, rico, rico, rico *
With ah 1-2-3-4-5!

-snip-

Performance instructions:

The group forms a wide circle. Before beginning, the group [or one strong personality in the group] decides which number to end the rhyme with {for instance, "#5" in the example above}. Actually though if the group is used to ending this rhyme with the number '5", there is seldom any discussion about which number is going to be the end number.

All children stand in place. In clockwise order, on the beat, one child at a time lightly slaps the hand of the child standing to his right. The person whose hand is slapped on the end number is "Out". Of course, some children try to move their hand out the way, so it won't be hit for that end number, but there is really no way to avoid it. When there are two children remaining, they each take turns slapping the others hand which each word. The person whose hand is slapped on the last number "Loses" and the remaining person is "The Winner".

* I wonder if "sandarico" is folk etymology for the unfamiliar Spanish word "senorita".

****

STROLLA OLA OLA is played ** the same way. Here are the words to that game:
   
Strolla ola ola
Slap, slap, slap.
With ah "s" cheeka cheeka
cheeka cheeka flap jack.
Fah lay, fah lay
Fahlay, fahlay , fahlay
With ah 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 *

-snip-

BTW, these elimination handclap games are "played" by both girls and boys together. I've never seen boys play them separatedly,but I've seen girls do so.

** Children usually don't say that they 'play' these games. They say that they 'do' these games. They usually just refer to the words to the songs by their specific names {for example, they say "Let's do "Stola Ola Ola" and not "Let's do a handclap game"}. If children use any other group referent for the words, it is 'song' or cheer' and not 'rhyme'.

And another thing-when I was growing up I NEVER heard these rhymes or their handclap activity called 'handjive'. No African American child or youth who I have ever interviewed or met with in after-school programming ever used the term "handjive". And no African American adult who I interviewed about their play experience EVER indicated that they used this term.

Of course, I've only interviewed about 200 or so African Americans in Pittsburgh and about that number elsewhere, and I wouldn't hesitate to state without any hesitation that we don't use the term 'handjive" to descrive either the rhymes or their performance.

But it's no biggie what you call it. Doing it is what's fun...

****

Click HERE for a Mudcat thread on Strolla Ola Ola/Stella Ola Ola.



Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 07:16 PM

Thanks, Sunday Monkey!

I remember playing "Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar" long long ago when I was growing up {Atlantic City, New Jersey, 1950s}.
It was the only handclapping game that I remember playing with kids sitting down and clapping there own hands to the rhythm while they chanted the words.

The way we played it was that numbers were called out consecutively starting with #1 and going through how many numbers of children were in the group. Boring.

Far more adults who I talked to have recollections of playing "Who stole a cookie" than children. "Who stole [took] the cookie" doesn't appear to be well known among children {mostly African American}in Pittsburgh who I worked with in after school programming from 1997-to date. It doesn't appear to be a game that children play without adult prompting and adult supervision like other group hand claps such as "Concentration" and "Slap Billyola" {"Strolla Ola Ola"}. *

If this game was known to the children who I worked with before I introduced it, it was usually played with the person who starts randomly selecting a number.

For instance, the first person would call out "#5 stole the cookie from the cookie jar". The response that I remember using and that I've heard in Pittsburgh is less polite than Sunday's Monkey's memory. It is:

"#5" : "Who me? Couldn't be.
Rest of the group: Then who stole the cookie from the cookie jar

and then #5 would call out another random number

BTW, when I introduced it to children I changed the words to "Who took the cookie from the cookie jar" since I figured this is what was meant anyway and I didn't like promoting 'stealing'

****

* More on those rhymes in posts that follow...



Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Sunday Monkey
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 01:59 AM

i saw a dead snake lying in the road.

say: i 1 it.

the other person says: 1 2 it.

say: 1 3 it.

other person: 1 4 it.



... the other person says "1 8 it".

You did! Gross!

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,sunday monkey
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 01:56 AM

who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?
number 1 stole the cookie from the cookie jar.
who sir me sir?
yes sir you sir.
no sir not i sir.
then sir who sir?

...

also: who stole the tart from the queen of hearts?

Subject: Speak Monkey Speak
From: GUEST,sunday monkey
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 01:53 AM

from the sf bay area in the 60's:

order in the court
the monkey wants to speak
speak monkey speak
the first one to speak
is the monkey of the week

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 28 May 05 - 10:30 AM

I'm curious if this rhyme is familiar to anyone:

I WENT TO THE CHINESE RESTAURANT

I went to a Chinese restaurant
to buy a loaf of bread bread bread
The waiter asked my name
and this is what I said said said:
My name is Eli Eli
Chickali Chickali
Pom Pom Beauty
Extra Cutie
I know karate
Punch you in the body
Oops! I'm sorry
Tell my Mommy
Miss ya, miss yah
Don't wanna kiss yah
Chinese
Japanese
Indian
Freeze!

(players point to each other and freeze)

{African American elementary school age girls Pittsburgh, Penn.
and Philadelphia Penn, collected 1999, 2003}.



Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:50 PM

Barbara, I used to do that "Guess what?"-"That's what" exchange.
For some reason it tickled my funny bone. Still does when I'm acting really silly with those I know well.

I also played "Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar" when I was little.

And I agree that that letter stamping action was mean.

I guess we're kindred souls.

:o)


Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Barbara
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:34 PM

When someone offered you an insult, you would reply, "I know that's what YOU are, but what am I?"

What about rhythm games? We played "Rhythm Ready" (and I can't quite remember how it goes, and (clap, snap, clap, snap)
All: Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
A:Number -- stole the cookies from the cookie jar.
B:Who me?
All:Yes you.
B:Couldn't be.
All:Then who?
B: Number -- stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Missing would of course eliminate you from the circle.

My mother tells me that I drove everyone nuts when I was about five by asking them "Guess what?" and when they said "What?" I'd say "That's what!"

When I was in first grade another kid at the drinking fountain asked me, "Did you get the letter I sent you?" and when I said "No", the kid stamped on my foot and said "Oh, I forgot to stamp it."

Does that count as a game? I thought it was mean. I still do.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:28 PM

Haven,

I also meant to point out that the example from the Wheee! Blog thread on school yard rhymes [hyperlinked above in a couple of my posts in this thread] contains other pieces of your "Have A Peach" rhyme. That post is presented as it is found on that site [including typos] and is reposted with the permission from that blog's members.

I'm sure you've notices the similarities between portions of "Star Spangle" and the rhyme that you remember:

Your rhyme:

A man, a man, a mandiego, sandiego
Hocus pocus dominocus...
Sitting on a trash can, beating on a tin can
Who can? We can! Nobody else can!
Sis, sis, sis boom bah!...
Rah! Rah! Rah!"

-snip-

And the "Star Spangled" Rhyme:
"amen-deyago sedeyago hookes pookes sallamoskes sis.. sis .. sis coom ba.. everybody eerybody RA-RA-RA.. BOO-BOO-BOO.. sitting on a trash can banging on a tin can i can you can nobody else can sitting on a bench.."

-snip-

Unfotunately, the poster of the Wheee! Blog rhyme provided no demographic information {geographical location, info. on when this rhyme was performed, etc/}. From reading that Wheee! Blog thread, it appears that a number of posters are teenagers, young adults, and even younger, but I can't say that with any certainity.

But at least you can be assurred that you didn't dream up this rhyme-even though others can't remember it! You should pat yourself on the back for YOUR memory!

As for the movie star putdown rhyme-sorry I haven't come across that one yet, though there are a number of children's rhymes about being a movie star.


Azizi

PS. The game song pages are only one part of Wheee! Blog. That blog is an an eclectic mix of alot of different topics, some of which might {and might not} appeal to Mudcat members and guests.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:12 PM

Haven,

Thanks for posting such interesting rhymes!

The "Have a peach, have a plum" rhyme that you remember sounds like a cheerleading chant that is made up of bits and pieces of other rhymes/chants.

There are a large number of rhymes that start with "Take a peach, take a plum, take a piece of bubble gum". I have also come across several rhymes that include the words "Sitting on a trash can, beating on a tin can". And of course, "Who can? We can! Nobody else can! Sis, sis, sis boom bah!...Rah! Rah! Rah!" is chanted by cheerleaders all over the place.

Could there be [or have been] a sports team in your area whose name became converted by you or other children to the word 'horses'???

****

Here are two examples of children's rhymes that contain the 'floating verses' that you remember from your childhood "Have A Peach" rhyme:

Shake, shake, shake
Eeny meeny
That's a queeny
Ooh ba Thumbalina
Ah cha ca che Liberace
Oh baby I love you
Yes I do.
Take a peach
Take a plum
Take a piece of bubble gum
No peach
No plum
Just a piece of bubble gum
Oooshe ahshe
Oooshe ahshe
I want a piece of pie
The pie too sweet
I want a piece of meat
The meat too tough
I want to ride the bus
The bus too full
I want to ride the bull
The bull too black
I want my money back
The money too green
I want a diamond ring.
        {Source Barbara Michels, Bettye White, "Apples On A Stick,
       The Folklore of Black Children", 1983, p. 17
       {Houston, Texas}

-snip-

star spangle...
itsy bitsy teeny witsy ew oh to0-ba-leeny outsy whatsy sellahawts say the magic words.. i have a stick of chewing gum and if you want the other half.. this is what you say.. amen. amen. amen-deyago sedeyago hookes pookes sallamoskes sis.. sis .. sis coom ba.. everybody eerybody RA-RA-RA.. BOO-BOO-BOO.. sitting on a trash can banging on a tin can i can you can nobody else can sitting on a bench.. nothnig to do.. along comes a little baby goochy gochy goo..

i learned this as when i was litte.

{Source: Wheee! Blog; posted by brrittannee at March 25, 2005}

-snip-

Enjoy!

****

Ms. Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Haven
Date: 27 May 05 - 04:38 PM

Cinderella, Cinderella, was common in my elementary school in Utah in the mid eighties. As was the Glory Glory Hallelujah. I can also add:

Joy to the World, the school burned down,
And all the teacher's died!
Except for the principal
We found him in the toilet bowl
With a rope around his neck . . .

And a rhyme for Chinese jump rope--

Ching, Chang, China Man
Chop Chop SUUU-EY!
Sitting in a china shop
Eating chop SUUU-EY!

Two other's I'm wondering if anyone else knows--

"What you say is what you are, You're a naked movie star" (I'm specifically interested in knowing if anyone knows if this was said before about 1980, or if it's known by anyone outside of Utah).

And one that I THINK I learned in Sacramento CA around 1989 that even my brother's and sister can't remember ever hearing before--I can't remember how it begins, but the part I do remember goes

"Have a peach, have a plum, have a stick of chewing gum,
and if you want another one, this is what you say--
A man, a man, a mandiego, sandiego
Hocus pocus dominocus
Brave Eagles!
Sitting on a trash can, beating on a tin can
Who can? We can! Nobody else can!
Sis, sis, sis boom bah!
Horses, Horses,
Rah! Rah! Rah!"

Also, the suffocation song--sung to the tune of Allouetta

Suffocation, super suffocation
Suffocation, the game we like to play

First you take a rubber hose,
Then you stuff it up your nose
Turn it on, then you're gone!
Oh, oh, oh, oh

Suffocation (repeat)

Next you take a pillocase,
Then you wrap it round your face
Go to bed, Wake up dead
Oh, oh, oh, oh

Suffocation (repeat)

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:02 AM

Barbara: Oh, yes, I had forgotten about that one. In Beverly Hills in the 1940s it was

There's a place in France

Where the women wear no pants

And the men go round

With their wienies hanging down.

In those days it was the first dirty song that most boys learned. Once I was at a circus where, as part of the show, a line of elephants defecated in unison, while the band played the tune to that song. There is no connection, of course, between elephant droppings and French underwear, but the tune seemed appropriate to accompany the dirty part of the show.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Dress for success: wear a white penis. :||

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Barbara
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:38 AM

"Here comes the bride, short, fat and wide,
Here comes the groom skinny as a broom."
I think it was Jerry Rassmussen's post about that one. the difference is that I have the word "short" where he (or someone else) has "fair".
And it's "Fatty, fatty, two by four,
          Can't get through the bathroom door.
          So he did it on the floor."
I think Bev and Jerry posted that one.

My Grandma was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1891 and died in Detroit, Michigan (lived there from teens on) in 1980. I can remember that rhyme from about 1955. She also often admonished me "A whistling girl and a crowing hen/Will surely come to no good end." So I'd go whistle somewhere else.

Oh, and we sang "All the girls in France, they don't wear no underpants" There's more tune, but I don't remember any more words.

When they turned our local grade school into a Burn-to-learn last week, (NW Oregon)(they're building a new school and it's a fast way of clearing the site).
I discovered that the kids here still sing (as we did):
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I bopped her on the bean
With a rotten tangerine
The school is burning down.
Someone even brought packages of hot dogs and marshmallows.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:26 PM

I appreciate your post, Barbara!

I mentioned race earlier in this thread because I'm interested in asking the question "Is race a factor in the TYPES of rhymes recited and the WAY the rhymes are performed?" I think the answer may be "It depends" or-better yet- the answer may be "Yes. No. Maybe so."

I am interested in folks sharing rhymes that they knew or know, regardless of their race.

****

Barbara, you wrote "We also sang "Here comes the bride, short fat and wide..." the rest's the same. And the "Fatty, fatty 2X4.." we also said."

I'm not sure what words are 'the rest'..

I have seen a variation of the "fudge" rhyme in print, but other children suggested that the baby be thrown down the 'elevator'.

Barbara, would you please provide approximate years for the rhyme from your Grandmother? I've never seen that one before.

Thanks again.


Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Barbara
Date: 26 May 05 - 10:11 PM

Growing up in suburban Detroit in the fifties, many of the ones you post are familiar to me. We also said "Liar, liar, pants on fire, nose as long as a telephone wire" and I thought almost every playground had "I see London..." (Always associate that one with the jungle gym, wonder why).
My Grandma said a number of rhymes and riddles as well (I be white, if that be relevant). Do you want those?
Things like

What a funny bird the frog are,
When he hop, he fly almost,
When he stand he sit almost,
When he sit, he sit on what he ain't got hardly.

We also sang "Here comes the bride, short fat and wide..." the rest's the same. And the "Fatty, fatty 2X4.." we also said.

And,
Oh fudge, oh joy
Momma's got a baby boy
Wrap him up in tissue paper
Put him in the 'frigerator.


Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:12 PM

Susan,

"I said it.
I meant it.
And I'm here to represent it"



Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:44 PM

Azizi,

Wouldn't you agree that research engenders a number of ethical issues?

Is there a reason not to discuss them openly with "field subjects"?

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:38 PM

Susan.

I will not engage with you in a discussion of the whys and wherefores of my children's rhymes project and/or my role as a Mudcat member.

To paraphase Popeye the sailorman [but without the dialect],

I am who I am, and that's who I am.


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:29 PM

Azizi, I agree that it is entirely appropriate to ask the broader humanities based questions regarding the psycho-social implications of examples of a creative folk art form that is usually not considered creative or an art, but IMO, is very much both
and I look forward to your replies to the questions I raised in that vein.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:03 PM

Azizi, what is your opinion about the ethical considerations described in the following:

Disguised Field Observations:
Okay, this gets a little sticky. In Disguised field analysis the researcher pretends to join or actually is a member of a group and records data about that group. The group does not know they are being observed for research purposes. Here, the observer may take on a number of roles. First, the observer may decide to become a complete-participant in which they are studying something they are already a member of. For instance, if you are a member of a sorority and study female conflict within sororities you would be considered a complete-participant observer. On the other hand you may decide to only participate casually in the group while collecting observations. In this case, any contact with group members is by acquaintance only. Here you would be considered an observer-participant. Finally, if you develop an identity with the group members but do not engage in important group activities consider yourself a participant-observer. An example would be joining a cult but not participating in any of their important rituals (such as sacraficing animals). You are however, considered a member of the cult and trusted by all of the members. Ethically, participant-observers have the most problems. Certainly there are degrees of deception at work. The sensitivity of the topic and the degree of confidentiality are important issues to consider.

SOURCE

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:43 PM

Susan,

In no way were my comments meant to imply, suggest, or infer that one race is more violent than another.

I am wondering if others have noticed any differences in the types of rhymes that different children, youth, and adults appear to prefer to recite and/or perform. If there are any differences, they may or may not relate to the way violence or reactions to violence are expressed by individuals from that group.

I believe that it is entirely appropriate to ask the broader humanities based questions regarding the psycho-social implications of examples of a creative folk art form that is usually not considered creative or an art, but IMO, is very much both.

And, Susan, any other information about my project will be available for your consideration when and if the book is published.

I thank you for your interest.


Azizi

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:35 PM

Azizi, are you using the term "collected" to refer to adult recollections, and including that process when you use the term "research"? How much of your research is based on that type of collecting?

I'm familiar with people using DT studies and thread discussions about songs as a place to get leads to DO research, but I would be surprised if serious researchers considered the posts of one or two threads a relevant sample. I would think there would be a number of issues, speaking in tgerms of solid statistical measurement.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:30 PM

Susan,

All of the above and more.

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:29 PM

Also, regarding this statement: From my research it appears that there are some rhymes that are performed by children in the USA regardless of race. However, there are other rhymes and types of rhymes that seem to be more common among children of one race or another....

What is your sample base-- are you relying on adult recollections, among non-African Americans, for that side of your question?

You also say, I also haven't found excessively violent rhymes among African American children like these ones:

"Lizzy Borden took an axe
She gave her father forty whacks
When the job was halfway through
She gave her mother forty-two.

-snip-

or

"On top of old smoky, all covered with sand,
I shot my poor teacher, with a big rubber band!
I shot her with pleasure, I shot her with pride!
I couldnt've missed her...she's eighty feet wide!"

When you say "these ones", are you equating a "fat joke" that derides a figure of authority with "excessive violence"? Didn't AA slaves make some pretty pungent remarks, possibly even rhymes, about figures of authority? If so, does that indicate a violent mindset to you?

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:18 PM

Azizi, when you indicate that you have collected a rhyme, do you mean that you made a field recording or verbatim transcription of what you observed, or do you use that term to refer to gathering contributions such as you have gathered here in this thread?

~Susan