Real Ale v Lager

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 04:26 AM

To the toast, gentlemen!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:22 PM

Oh, I wish some place like Abbeydale were available close to me! Those folks have the right attitude!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM

What are you on about Terry K? Real ale isn't just falling over fluid. It comes in all strengths- here's a nice range from Abbeydale as served at the Three Stags. I generally stick to the Matins.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM

Terry K, " most real ales are too strong to appeal to real drinkers "
what planet are you from ? you'll be telling us next that whisky is too strong a spirit for real men.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:18 PM

How old are you TerryK? The only people I know who drink to get drunk are pre-legal aged teenagers (THEY like to brag) and poor unfortunate alcoholics who can't help themselves. I seldom ( once a year, if that) go to a bar or pub and never have more than two of anything and if I'm driving, one or none). I like ale and microbrews because of the taste and refreshment. I admire the complexity of flavors, texture and temperature and hopefully, the aftertaste. I'd forego the alcohol altogether but it too, contributes much to the flavor.

Do you eat to see how much you can eat? Brag about it?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:13 PM

Was writing while you posted, Ron. Thanks for the explanation.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

Well Bill, I can understand someone looking for a drink of lower abv if it is going to be a long night. I know I for one am not very good at making a pint last, epsecially if I'm playing in a session....

As Dave the gnome and I have shown that choice needn't be larger though and there is a fair variation in strength between both drinks. Most pubs I go to round here these days offer a minimum of 2 bitters, typically with 2, one somewhere around the 4% mark and one around the 5% mark.

Dick, if it's anything like the UK, I would guess the name of the game with the mass produced stuff has become to produce a drink that is not unpleasant to taste for the greatest number of people, taking out any possible character in the process.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:36 PM

You can't call American brewers incompetent based on the tastes of a few large brands. American brewers, notably the microbrews, are creating some of the most interesting beers IN THE WORLD. They are winning awards again, internationally.

Before Prohibition, most beer was brewed locally because it was more difficult to ship.   Refrigeration, canning, and bottling improved along with the Repeal and it became possible for beer to be shipped greater distance. The brewers realized that "local tastes" would not be the same from region to region and the recipe for the product altered to make it more appealing to greater numbers.   As the larger brewers began to sell their product the tastebuds changed.   Local brewers would be forced to change their product to compete.   Soon, most beers began to taste the same.   By the 1980's, there were far fewer local brewers but the microbrew renaissance began.

Terry K mentions session drinking, and the note seems to perpetuate a stereotype that drinkers brag about getting drunk. Fans of good beer do not drink to get drunk, they enjoy the taste and the pleasant glow. They may not finish 4 beers in an hour, but I will bet that one beer will be remembered far longer.

It is a chicken vs. egg scenario when trying to determine who changed the taste - the brewers or the tastebuds of consumers. If it did not sell, people would not buy it.

There is still a snobbish appeal to beer. Blue collar consumers will stick with the blander beer, mainly because it is cheaper. Also, it is easier to get a quick buzz on a sixpack of Bud or Miller. Because it is bland and cold, it goes down easy and fast.   The tastier beers take longer to enjoy.   You won't chug a Sam Adams.    I've never seen anyone make a beer bong using Belgian Ale.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

What has always fascinated me is the fact that, prior to Prohibitiom, American mass-produced beers were winning more than their share of international awards. After Repeal, something happened. I can't believe that our brewmeisters became suddenly incompetent; obviously American tastes changed over that brief period. But why....?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

" I go on to lager if it's going to be a heavy session."

???...you mean the point is to be able to drink steadily for hours, no matter the flavor?

To each his own, I suppose, but I will choose my brews for their taste, even if it means no more than 2-3 in an evening. I grew up in an area (middle US) where beer in a pub/bar was 3.2%, and I thought for years that I didn't really like beer...then I found real beer/ale....German, Belgian, English...etc, and was in heaven...and now I can get very good beer in the US. Sadly, very few lagers are among them...(exception noted above)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM

Manns brown ale - 2.8% abv
Robinsons Mild - 3.3% abv
Carling black label - 4.0% abv

Know what you mean about instant coffee though. Yuck. Starting to feel the same about standard teas (Typhoo, PG etc.)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:10 AM

Adnams "The Bitter" = 3.7%
Fosters Larger = 4%
Adnams "Broadside" = 4.7%
Budweiser Abv 5%
Stella Artois = 5.1%

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:21 AM

I find that most so-called "real ales" are far too strong to appeal to real drinkers. Good session beer of less than 4% is a thing of the past, so if you want "a good drink" you end up with Adnams, London Pride, CBB etc, all of which are around 4.3%, which generally means not feeling all that bright the next day. Hence I go on to lager if it's going to be a heavy session.

It also seems to me that the people who have the most huff 'n puff to say about real ales are the ones who sip their way through a pint in an hour and a half and then leave an inch in the bottom and go home, braging to all their mates about what a drunken blast they had at the weekend. I could go on to mention that most of the bollocks talked about Guinness is talked by those who rarely drink the stuff, but I won't.

One thing I will say - if you can drink instant coffee you really should not really be commenting on matters of taste ........

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:04 AM

Flat warm beer?? What's the point? Maybe something mulled in the dead of winter but that is about it. You'd have to live in the most god-awful hole on the planet, be wrapped in cold fog and eternal dinginess, breathing mold spores constantly in order to like uh , warm uh, uh flat uh uh,    oh!.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

I love a pint of youngs bitter!
I love a pint of Ruddles County
I love a pint of Fosters lager
I love a pint of cider
Variety my children that's what life's about"

With you all the way there.

Except for the Foster's. Brewed under licence. Always a give-away.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: melodeon king
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:01 PM

I love a pint of youngs bitter!
I love a pint of Ruddles County
I love a pint of Fosters lager
I love a pint of cider
Variety my children that's what life's about.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

You limeys drink horrible brown smelly slop called ale yurchh!

And you Americans will drink anything - including gnat's piss.

And it is served cold so you can't taste what crap it really is.

But I defend your right to drink whatever garbage people are prepared to serve you and you are prepared to spend good money buying.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bob dylan
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:31 AM

I like a cold lager. You limeys drink horrible brown smelly slop called ale yurchh!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Moby Duck
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM

I don't know why people keep referring to Lager as "fizz" "chilled" as if that makes it bad. I personally cant stand warm flat beer. So what!

But I can't understand how people can drink some of the cloudy evil smelling stuff that I've seen poured in real ale pubs. And bloody hell have you ever been to the bog/mens room after a bearded ale drinker Phhhhhhew!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:14 AM

I am not sure that anyone over thought it was "easy". I know decent landlords that have sent beer back to breweries, rather than serve crap - and the breweries accept it.

Eurofizz is lowest common denominator - it is designed to appeal to the largest number of people. It takes nothing to look after a sealed metal dustbin. IMHO the same landlords that are found of sealed metal dustbins are less likely to clean their pipes and generally go for a high quality of hygiene essential for decent beer.

I also like the Aerican "craft" beers (In Oregon where there are loads of micro-breweries) but they are pasteurized and filtered. And rarely below 5% - hardly a "session" beer, in either sense of the word.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Well, I asked a fellow session player tonight. He is a microbiologist who has experience with commercial brewing processes, and is also a keen home brewer as well as one for a good "nose" for a pint he likes.

I'd say to my surprise, he does come down in favour of the steralising/filtering or whatever processes and does think there is a certain amount of myth about the real ales.

One thing he did stress though is if you are really talking about an ale with live yeast, you need a good cellarman - a point raised by others. That, in line with what someone else indicated, adverse processes start happening, etc.

Sorry it's all a bit vague but when this person gets going on a conversation, it can take me a week or more for bits to sink in.

For now, I'm just reporting back and saying perhaps it is not all quite as cut and dried as at least I thought...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Spot on, Kenneth. The worst effect has been the small independants falling for the promises of the big boys who are paying lip service to Real Ale - Look at Boddingtons as a point of fact. Sold out to Whitbread for bigger profits, started to make crap beer. Now closed down. Thanks heavens Holts have the covenant to give lots of money to cancer research:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

Back in the '70s when I belonged to CAMRA there were very few pubs selling cask conditioned beer - but by heck the quality in all of them was first class. It seems that from the mid 80s onward every tom, dick & harry of a landlord has jumped on the "real ale" bandwagon and the quality in general has plummeted. Youngs Brewery would not supply beer unless the recipient had a cellerman certificate to proove that they knew how to handle their beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:21 PM

Damn you, Ingham - I was on a roll of centuries then!

You know what though - In some ways I agree with you. All the real ale I got in the US from at least half a dozen different micro-breweries was absolutely top class. There is stuff here that equals or beats it but there is an awful lot of bilgewater served up as real ale as well:-( I think that because it is a relatively new 'real ale' market there people realy do care more than some of the established brewers here.

Where I disagree is that in the main the US 'domestic' beer is not as good as the ordinary beer here. Even the worst that Scottish and Newcastle can throw at is usualy better than Bud or Miller. One I did enjoy oddly enough was Blue Ribbon (Pasche?) But then again I upset the CAMRA guys here by alternating my pints of old bishops scrotum with Carling black label.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

I've always thought that the beer in the USA is far superior to the muck that is served up as real ale in the UK

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

There goes the ice cap.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:30 PM

new kid on the block
on todays news

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

With respect folkman, thats a load of bollocks, real ale is a living thing, this is where the different beers get their individual character, you obviously prefer bland nitro-keg pop.

The EU will do no such thing, do you think the Germans and the Belgians, who brew some of the worlds great beers will put up with that ? Germany already has strict laws governing the brewing of beer. Incidently a lot of German beers are lagers, Fosters, Carling, Miller and all the rest of the factory made beers bear no comparison to proper lagers.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

There's nothing wrong with sterilising lager or any other beer. It gets rid of nasty bacteria that is usually present in "real ale". Soon the EU will be introducing a law where all beer will have to be clean.

Bacteria and living yeast cells detract from the careful blend of flavours in the beer and can cause that "farty" smell that a lot of badly kept "real" ales have.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:22 AM

Yo Edward Bridge, if Fosters is good why is it killed [ sterilised ] after brewing ? why isn't it served naturaly like good beers should be served ? how can it compare with a beer like Taylors Landlord, brewed in Keighley for over a hundred years and STILL using the same yeast culture.

Fosters and crap like Miller Lite [ what sort of spelling is that ] are deliberately brew as bland as possible, served very cold so no one can tell it's tasteless.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:34 PM

I've had beer all over Europe, and I had no trouble finding beer I liked - except in England. I'm sorry, but I just couldn't develop a linking for "bitter" beer. People there insisted I should have lager since I'm an American and that's what Americans like, but it was awful - worse than Coors. American folkies don't drink Coors or Miller Lite or Budweiser, and they're not going to like English Lager (which usually turns out to be Stella Artois, which doesn't sound very English).

I've always liked Newcastle Brown Ale, but I didn't have any in England because it's readily available here in California. I found a wonderful English beer called Grouse Beater, but it was available only one or two days of my three-week stay. The rest of my UK experience was extraordinary and I really loved the music - but not the beer.

Sorry.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:51 PM

Strictly speaking it is true. "Ale" means the type of beer that used to be brewed before they introduced hops a few centuries back, and there still are some beers made without hops which are correctly called "ales" in that sense.

Most of the beer referred to as "Real Ale" are not actually ale at all, it's just a way of saying traditionally brewed and served. Of course language changes and it's a bit over pedantic to object to ale being used as a synonym for beer generally.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

A post WAY up thread seemed to state that Real Ale contains no hops. Can this be true?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:30 PM

Looks good. There are all sorts of Fat Cats btw. here is a Norwich pub of that name. It's the "sister pub" of the one I mentioned in this thread, the Shed, where I go for music.

Only been in the Fat Cat (Norwich) once. It may sound odd but the night I tried it, it felt too full of "beer connoisseurs" for my liking.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

Fat Cat looks like a great place to go! I love being able to try a range of excellent brews in one place.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:28 PM

I would like to recommend two pubs where you can try out testing real ale against decent lager until you fall over.

First up Fat Cat - http://www.thefatcat.co.uk/86index.htm

One of the world's great boozers. (Apart from me that is!!)

http://www.devonshirecat.co.uk/content.php
is brilliant for bottled beer.

Two good reasons to live in Sheffield

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

I reiterate, In matters of taste and beauty, there is no argument. As for my personal persuasion, here in the US in never liked beer as a young person in the 60's & 70's. Bud, Coors, Schlitz etc. was all the same. Then some where in the 80's I tasted Groelsch (Spelling??)Ale and I was a changed man. I never met an ale I didn't like (except for some pretenders to the name). Since then some clever folk began micro-breweries and began to produce some beers according to the ancient traditions and I discovered that there WERE beers I liked, including some lagers. Since then I've tried my hand at some brewing and now appreciate what goes into producing a good palatable beer or ale. Lagering can produce some really exceptional beer. I have some friends who produce a fine home brew lager. I've yet to find an acceptable commercial lager. Age and temperature control are critical and distribution is problematic. None the less I apreciate each for it's own uniqueness but my personal preference runs to ale.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:41 PM

"Quote from Inspector Morse: "They don't spell Australian lager, XXXX, out of ignorance, Lewis"."

*ROFL* I like it!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:38 PM

Quote from Inspector Morse: "They don't spell Australian lager, XXXX, out of ignorance, Lewis".

The landlord of the Globe, in Glossop, is brewing his own bitter. The first few batches were variable in quality, but all have been well received. I was asked the other day, "Why aren't you still serving Globe Summer Ale ? Is it because the weather has turned bad." I replied, "No. You lot have drunk it all."

Beer engines (hand pumps) do have small air pumps in the lines, powered by CO₂ cylinders. These do not add gas to the brew; they merely prevent any beer surging back into the cask when the handle is released, and stirring up yeast and sediment which then get into the lines. The continued fermentation of yeast in the cask is important to the flavour, but yeast in the pint when drunk tastes bad and (in my experience) can give the most truly awful hangovers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: melodeon king
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM

I like a pint of warm flat "leper's fart" or if they don't have that (pipes tend to get clogged) "Old Helmet Cheese" will do. You lager drinkers don't know what you are missing ... aaaarrrgh!!!! ...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM

"Nothing better than a cold pint of Fosters.."...ummmmm....well....

As for GOOD Aussie beers, I used to enjoy Coopers ale, but have not seen it here for ages.

also, Tooth's Sheaf Stout was wonderful, but I read that Tooth's was bought by Carlton, who also owns Foster's...and I haven't seen it in years either.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

Fosters on tap is rare (but not unknown) in the States. What we usually see is the BIG cans. I don't care much for the lager, but the bitter (in the green can) is drinkable.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:03 PM

Please don't let my wife see this thread! She's a professional brewer of 25+ years standing, and is generally reckoned to have one of the best palates in the industry; she can pick out up to thirty different distinct tastes from a pint, tell you what ingredients were used, usually who brewed it and when. Her hobby is shredding beer bores, and it can get ugly.
Her view is that beer should be well-produced, and that there should be a lot of variety in the market. Trouble is, a lot of 'real ale' is simply not very well produced at all, and a given brand may not taste the same from one brew to the next. Many beer drinkers confuse 'off' flavours with character, and are often drinking beer that has gone badly wrong in the brewing process. This can be due to a number of things; poor quality control of ingredients, poor water treatment (almost all brewers do this), bacterial and other infections, lack of temperature control, over/under use of additives ('adjuncts' in the trade), poor serving hygiene and yeast problems are some of the most common. Top pressure beers such as draught lagers avoid some of these problems, but not all.
Personally, I like a pint of hand-pulled bitter (or mild when I can get it), but when it's really hot I like a cold lager too.
For those dedicated souls who want to do some research in this area, can I recommend a stroll down St Edwards Street in Leek, Staffordshire? Four pubs in the Good Beer Guide, including the local Pub of the Year, plus a superb Belgian Beer Bar and a Tapas Bar, all within 200 yards of each other; and you can plan your stroll so that it's all downhill. If you do decide to take up this research, I'll be in the Wilkes Head, and you can buy me a pint of Hartington Bitter! (Purely in the interests of science, you understand!)
Tim

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: mindblaster
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM

I'm a real ale man myself. Youngs, Shepherd Neame, Adnams etc. But I do love a pint of cold fosters in the hot weather!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Beardy
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:48 AM

I like both. A lot depends on the pub. A dirty glass can ruin any drink. These new glass washing machines are no good. The glasses end up with a fine film of detergent which kills any beer. Glasses used to be polished prior to EU hygiene rules. A good well balanced lager or a fine cask conditioned ale, both are excellent served up by a good landlord in a clean glass.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:46 AM

I have put up this web page on a previous thread but look out for the notice on the third photograph down!

Link

some of us will there this w'end too

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:25 AM

Despite its nerdy image, if it weren't for CAMRA we probably wouldn't have any real ale these days. It was due to CAMRA that the shirts & ties in the brewing industry didn't get their way and nowadays a pub without real ale is the rarity.

I remember in the early 70's if word got round that a pub had been found that still had hand pumps, there was a mad rush to get there before the brewery ripped everything out and 'modernised' it. Don't forget there's more to a pub than real ale. Even if it does serve decent beer, I don't get much pleasure from sitting in an establishment that looks more like an Indian restaurant than an English public house! Pubs that still look like pubs are few and far between these days. I think the older generation of pub landlords didn't die of old age, they died of broken hearts.

Also the problem I find is that the number of landlords/managers (or whatever they're called this week) who know how to look after real ale seems to be disproportionate to the number of pubs serving it. The wonderful thing about British beer is the wide variety of tastes, each brew having its own distinctive flavour. I have been in a number of pubs where the beers, whatever you order, are drinkable (just) but all taste the same. Or, in the hot weather go flat after a couple of mouthfuls.

Sorry to upset the purists, but in defence of lager, when the following criteria apply:
a) in Greece
b) 30+ degrees of heat (or thereabouts)
c) in a taverna with a Greek salad in front of me
….. an ice cold Mythos goes down a treat!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Edward Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM

I must admit Folky Punky Rocker, I'd have to agree, real cider does have it's merits. Cider or lager in the hot weather (not together) Bitter or stout in winter. Whatever you fancy really.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

"There is nothing more refreshing on a hot summer day!"


there is..


cool pub cellar temp. conditioned natural draught cider !!!!!