BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: 42
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:46 PM

was it really a dog that caused that crash the other day?

j

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:22 PM

General classification after stage 9

6 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 9.35

11 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 10.11

16 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 10.19

20 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 10.30

22 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 10.35

23 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 10.43

34 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) Liberty Seguros 11.20

62 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco 12.57

86 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 15.02

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:14 PM

The motorcycles can be big problem, but they do provide us with all the T.V./video footage. Team cars are usually pretty well behaved. There was that incident though in the 2002 Vuelta where one of the cars for a French team ran David Millar off the road at the bottom of Angrilu. Whoever was driving that car should of been arrested for vehicular assult.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM

The fall was last year (2003) with the spectator, and vehicles are VERY much regulated. ALL the vehicles on the road on the day's route are Tour-authorized and TRour-governed vehicles of one sort or another. But road cycling IS road cycling, and believe me, far more are hurt and killed each year by regular motorists and truckers than are hurt in the Tour.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:22 PM

I doubt that Mayo can make up 4 minutes, but stranger things have happened. Armstrong, of course, is where he is entirely because of his team...the first three stages don't tap into his strengths at all. Its all about having a strong team that protects the star and balances out his less strong points (I almost said "weak points...HA!).

You're certainly right about the spectators...wasn't it the 2002 Tour when Armstrong went down after catching his handlebars on the strap of someone's bag?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

so sad to see so many injuries in the early stages. Mayo is probably out of it all. Armstrong sure manages to get where he wants, doesn't he?

One thing that bothers me about general safety is how often spectators crowd onto the racing surface. I'm not sure what could be done, but sometimes idiots who want their 15 seconds of exposure make it very difficult to ride a bike!

I don't suppose anyone would consider fewer motorcycles and autos in the pack...or more rules about their behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:38 PM

With most of the riders on "speed" we should expect the cream to come to the top, allez for the Tour de Farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM

The team time trial is Heras' first chance to get some time back. Sure, Liberty isn't Once, but the team has the same director, who works harder on the team time trial than anyone, and he did get the majority of his Once team to come over to Liberty. I agree however that tomorrow, Lance will be in yellow. If Heras is able to make up any time, it probably won't be enough. Any how, it should be an exciting duel between the two team timetrial powerhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 12:28 PM

Of interest* in the General Classification after stage 3....

~S~


5 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor, 0.16

9 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank, 0.24

11 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC, 0.26

18 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team, 0.31

20 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems, 0.32

42 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC, 0.46

57 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) Liberty Seguros, 0.51

101 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi, 4.23


*At least, these are the ones we're watching at our house.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:43 AM

Pretty exciting stage all the way around. Lots of changeups all along the parts of the course. Missed most of it except HEARING it, as urgent morning correspondence had my back to the TV, but looking forward to a nice relaxed view of it all tonight. But it looks like young Iban Mayo will have to bank the fire in his belly till another year.

And next, the team time trial, and the long blue train.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:41 AM

BTW, I predict that tomorrow night a US-boy will wear the yellow jersey. First name: Lance

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Heras and Hamilton were also in the first group. The other favourites have lost close to 4 min on them and on Mancebo, Ullrich and Armstrong. An Australian has both the yellow and the green jersey.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM

The way they go now, I bet on an Australian to wear le maillot jaune tonight. A first show of strength by Armstrong and his team. Some of the other favourites are in the second half of the peloton which is an additional bonus. It looks like some of the competitors might lose about 2 minutes tonight. Of the other favourites I up to now only see Ullrich and Botero in the first group.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 11:04 PM

And the sprinter from Oz took Stage 2! Good on yer, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 10:04 AM

A French Court ruled out Lance Armstrong`s right to reply on accusations in a new book,"LA Confidential- The Secrets of Lance Armstrong".
Emma O`Reilly, Armstrong`s former assistant claims in the book that the cyclist asked her to get rid of used syringes and to give him make-up to conceal needle marks on his arm.
British World time-trial champion David Miller already out of the Tour, withdrew from the British Olympic squad after admitting to EPO use.
Also Spanish rider Gorka Gonzalez has been excluded after he failed a drugs test while the entire Kelme team were banned following allegations of doping by a former rider.

This has been going on for years, it seems to be impossible to eradicate.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 02:19 AM

Lance has given other riders on his team a chance to shine, for example Floyd Landis won the Tour Portugal with Lance supporting him.
The team to watch for this year I believe is Liberty Seguros. Yeah I said Heras would make the podium last year, and it didn't actually happen (or come close). However, Liberty is stronger than any Once team and with one of the time trials being up hill, this could be Heras' best chance for a podium finish.
I'm kind of upset about David Millar being kicked out of the tour. I was hoping to see some good competition in the time trials, other than Armstrong and Ullrich. Nozal however might be able to provide that. I'm also excited to see Cipolini finally get invited. How a division one team with the reigning world champion didn't get invited last year is beyond me, but assuming someone doesn't crash him out of the tour, he should provide some good competition for Petachi.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 07:02 PM

Le Grande Buffet starts tomorrow!

OLN has their online, live audio feed planned for this year again, too!

Now we shall see, how is this Azevedo man....

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:50 PM

That one is suddenly quite fashionable! The rest I understand, but that one seemed new.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:25 PM

A palmares is a cyclist's record of wins, places, records etc, in short his performance over the years. (No offence to females who also have one.) Cycling has a wee vocabulary of its own like most sports.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:16 PM

What is "palmares"?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:41 PM

well, Lance is obviously a great rider, and I have watched him find energy when I can't imagine where he got it..

but on the TV OLN network this Spring...there is almost NOTHING about cycling except "homage to Lance" documentry series..."How Lance does it...in 27 chapters"
I'd like to see some of the rest of it....and boy, won't it be interesting if something happens and Lance falters...or falls...and can't get # 6?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,twowheeler
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:11 PM

Thanks, Van. I thought there was substance behind your feelings, and I appreciate your response. I may not totally agree with you, but I can see and respect your point of view.

Thanks for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:15 PM

I can't see where the length of my penis should affect my views on what constitutes a real cycling hero. (For those who worry about such things it largely depends on the weather and how long I've been out on the bike in it.)I've followed cycling for many years (since the days of Anquetil) and I feel, in common with many other European cycling fans, that in a way, Armstrong has a reputation that is ill deserved. One race a year is not much of a palmares in comparison to the riders who have previously won 5 Tours. Previous Tour winners rarely rode all 3 of the big tours but all rode the Classics: Paris - Roubaix, Paris - Tours, Fleche Wallone, etc. That's why I feel how I do. It is the only sport I really enjoy and an opinion on a major player is an entitlement of any fan. Beats the hell out of rioting at football matches. I'm sure twowheeler also discusses such merits with his mates. It' a long time since I was fit enough to be in a team.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:04 PM

I seem to recall that by winning the Tour last year Armstrong equalled someone else's previous record, correct? So if he wins this year he'll set a new record, but it isn't like he is doing something all that new, we just have short memories when it comes to sporting records.

The one thing more than any other that might equip him well to ride in that grueling race is to live and train in Austin, Texas. The summer heat is miserable down here, and if he's accustomed to that he can handle anything the race in Europe can throw at him.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:11 AM

From a letter posted at www.cyclingnews.com, referencing fitness and BIG changes in pro racing mandated to kick in soon:

Days of racing needed to prepare

People often comment how different times are between the Merckx era and today. Well, I'm amazed by how different times are between the 1990s and now. I remember at the beginning of the Giro in 1994, that Indurain's form was called into question because he had only had 20 days of racing up to that point. He came 3rd and later went on to win the Tour de France. Added to this, back then the Giro appeared to be the riders choice of preparation for the tour.

Now days, not only is there a huge lack of real TdF contenders at the Giro, but some of the TdF contenders would be lucky to even complete 20 days of actual racing before the main event.

I'm not really sure on the reasons for this, but some guesses could be

- better technology in training aids;
- recuperation is more difficult due to stricter doping controls;
- the competition is so much harder and faster requiring specific preparation, etc.

Regardless of the reasons, I can't wait for the Pro Tour in 2005. Hopefully this will bring back some of the Merckx era where we saw a whole lot more of our champions. An era where there was no such thing as a 'one hit' wonder.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:21 PM

Is someone under the impression that Lance isn't competing...and winning? Check this out!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:57 PM

Well that's true, to some extent, but it's pretty obvious that training is a bit less damaging than competition. There's at least less chance of serious injury due to accidents and peleton pile ups. And in training, there's no good results in pushing yourself when you're already injured or sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:39 PM

BC-- I think he DOES wear out his body; he just does it training, not competing. In a way he is always competing-- with himself-- because that is his personality.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

Hey Susan. I know what Van was referring to. I'm just annoyed when someone has to slam something without bothering to argue the point. It's just silly to say Armstrong "doesn't deserve" the wins. Sports have always been about doing the most to win what you wish to win. Lance doesn't need to win race after race to pay his bills, so he doesn't feel the need to wear out his body anymore than he needs to. I'm sure his bout with cnacer helped him realize that.

I like the teamwork system the US Postal Team has. Other teams are getting better too.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

.... and another familiar anti-Lance slam is that he's nothing without his team.

I prefer to enjoy seeing the teams that do NOT support one leader, as they fall apart in competitive bullshit year after year instead of emulating the Postie model. One team to watch that DOES seem to understand the team-strategy approach is Tyler Hamilton's gang.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,two wheeler
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

Van, why do you feel that way??

Curious...

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 02:11 PM

Guest/Van's post represents the view of many who prefer the feats of past TdF legends, when it was the custom for them to ride all the Grand Tours in the year.

Armstrong's big innovation is year-round training, equipment/fitness testing, and route analysis, all mostly aimed at the Tour de France.   

All riders benefit from his obsessions in those areas. By trying to knock him off the Tour podium, they challenge their own envelope and try his discoveries. I think they respect him as a fair competitor, but there is no denying his approach is different from the traditional; and people sometimes prefer the tradition to the evolution.

Whatever. Interesting year, anyway.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM

Van, are you on one of the teams? If not, you must have a tiny penis indeed to feel the need to say such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:23 PM

Shame that we face the prospect of the once a year junky setting a record he doesn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:46 AM

Give "French Revolutions" a read. It is about someone who decides to "DO THE TOUR".
Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:19 AM

Beloki and Vinokourov are both out of the 2004 Tour.

Awwwwww!!!!!

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 11:15 AM

2004 ROUTE announced.

BOB ROLL's articles at OLN.

Cable channel OLN's coverage of the Route announcement, 9:30 PM this evening Eastern time (US).

Vive Le Tour! There will be an individual time trial... up Alpe d'Huez!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 01:50 AM

Two men in my neighborhood flew to Corsica a few weeks ago for a couple of weeks of cycling through the countryside. They had a great time; did between 50 and 60 miles a day even though there were a lot of climbs with a significant elevation gain. They took many pictures, cemented friendships, and came back muscled and tan.

I asked one of the men about the Tour de France. He grunted, A recipe for disaster. To me that's not what biking is about.

Somewhat like the difference between the jogger and the walker- they say that it's easy to tell them apart: the walker is the one with the smile.

Different strokes, and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:27 PM

It's not "ulterior motives." It's openly planned, multiple agendas well supported by tradition (i.e. the sponsor system). The riders all accept it and work with it. It's how they customize their season to their individual needs and abilities. Same thing as horse racing, really.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:42 PM

I understood it was getting a 'team' with Cipolini in it qualified, rather than the man himself...I thought I remember hearing that 2 or 3 teams were vying for the last entry.

as to "The tours go to the better climbers.."...the tours go to those who can do it all! Armstong is a fine time-trialer and a 'decent' sprinter, as well as an excellent climber...same with #5, Zubeldia, and Hamilton...etc... several who were only climbers did not finish high.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:26 PM

Well Bill, in defense of riders like Petacchi, there is sometimes an alterier motive to entering a tour. You may recall how Cipolini had three stage wins at the Vuelta last year and then pulled out. He was in to train for another race that he won. Before his cancer, Lance Armstrong did the same thing, altough I think it was just one stage win instead of six. I do understand what your saying, but it's common practice. The tours go to the better climbers. The Giro and the Vuelta are even harder on sprinters.
On another note, do you think they'll finally let Cipolini race in the tour again next year?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:34 PM

Agreed, Bill D. I have ridden a few centuries, although not recently, and I recall being walking wounded for several days afterward, and some multi-day rides with lower daily mileage. The thought of riding 250K, coupled with several category 1 climbs, makes me shudder!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:15 PM

I also wish the 'minor' sports were better known in America, and perhaps we are getting there....there is little space left on regular TV channels, though, after Basketball, football, baseball & hockey get through! OLN does show us some choices (as does ESPN, if you stay up till 3AM!)

as in all major sports, cycling is getting ambiguous about nationalities. An 'American' won the race, but NOT "America"...many riders from different countries made up professional teams, and they joked about the Aussie(McEwen) who now lives in Belgium being a Belgian if he won and an Aussie if he lost..*grin*. Guys from MANY countries performed well in that long race..three French riders did very well, as well as Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Brits, Dutch and others. (3rd place to Kazakstan!)

The only sour note for me, was those sprinters like Petacchi who rode just for a win or two and then quit...yeah, those mountains are work, but if that's all they can do, let 'em just enter sprint races...

ah, well, it was great fun watching, and I admire ANYONE who can ride a bike for 3 weeks that fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 01:39 PM

Hrothgar, I believe this is the second year an Aussie won the sprint jersey. It's nowhere near as big a deal as the yello jersey though.

I have to agree with Spaw. While cycling isn't as big here as it is in France or Columbia, we all know who Lance is, we all know what he's done and just did! We all know that he's going for number 6 next year. Lance delivers an important message to all of us; that you can come back stronger than you've ever been before!

Anyways, my podium perdictions for next year - Armstrong, Ullirich, and Hamilton. Although if Beloki is back, one of these guys could be ousted. Also, watch out for Leipheimer. He was crashed out in the opening in the same crash that broke Hamiltons collar bone this year. He's readdy to have an impact. Heras could also be a strong contender for the podium (although he'll be supporting Armstrong) if is any stronger than he was this year.

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:56 AM

Yes.... but part of the deal is that Lance was also being featured in commercials on other channels. Kind of a cross-marketing thing. I think the sponsors saw a marketing opportunity because of the coinkydink between the Tour Centenary and the Fifth-Win effort.
It doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of people understand a thing about professional cycling, or follow it. I don't expect there'll be much of a ripple in the media pond over La Vuelta, por ejemplo. No Lance, no marketing hook. (BTW don't you love the superior French scenery and camera work????? We rank Le Tour 1st, then the Giro, the La Vuelta as far as watchability.) )

Hardi and I are blue in the face from all the explaining we've been doing about the hows and whys of cycling-- individual and team goals and tactics, where the money comes from and goes, and so on..... it's not at all like the Olympics and people keep thinking it will be, bnecause the mdia has focused on heroism and that's the closest people seem to be able to get, in gras[ping what's remarakable about Le Tour. When we explain it, we talk about having to have a great day for three weeks straight-- no room for a bad hair day-- and 2,000 miles of racing partly uphill.) The marketing this year has brought people to us to ask us, because NOW they recall that for 4 years w'eve been talking about how exciting it is. Anyhow that's how it seems in our tiny town. But there is a diehard road cycling community here, and especially now that we have a small and wonderful cycle shop, it's getting kinda organized. The CamelBak's are coming out of the closet and it's not unusual now to see someone zoom past slow cars on clipless pedal clips-- fewer heavy mountain bikes on the road, and more aerobars, and so forth.

Perhaps it's not important to decide which came first, the chicken or the egg-- the marketing or the interest-- but just to notice that chickens and eggs often are found together and tend to perpetuate one another.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:49 AM

Now that the Tour de France is finished I'm ready to discuss (sport) politics.

Tunesmith, you may be right but who cares? The winner only can be the best of those who have competed. Perhaps, if a small French boy would not have died in an accident 24 years ago, Lance might not have won...As I said who cares. With you definition of international no single sport can be termed international for there are always differences in local interest who shape the interests of the young boys and girls which sport to choose or not.

Greg, the idea was not to replace the word 'France' by 'freedom' but the word 'French'. That's why your example doesn't fit. But I agree that the replacement is completely silly and pointless.

Ard, with extremely few exemptions all world class accomplishments in whatever sport are not healthy anymore. Way back in the old times, Tour de France cyclists have taken arsenic in unhealthy doses and all that. I doubt that for instance GAA sports are completely clean in that respect.

Same as I admire for instance circus artists and forget for the moment of admiration how awful and unhealthy the training might be I admire the cyclists and forget about the other aspects as long as they compete. But I am for controls for I do not want someone to win only by superior methods of cheating.

From what I know, the coutries which did (and do) use cheating by doping on a fairly general level these were (and are) predominantly countries from the so called socialist world. We now know fairly well how such a small country as the GDR did excell in Olympic sports. And the pattern of records and sudden breakdowns of Chinese athletes speaks volumes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM

Susan!! True, but the advertising wouldn't have been there if there was no interest in watching it. Even OLN doesn't spend much time on curling or rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:52 AM

OLN preempted because available sponsorbucks were pretty huge for Le Tour! Le Lance Hot, and all that Jazz.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:00 AM

Hey!!! Didn't OLN preempt both fly fishing and beach volleyball so they could have 12+ hours of Tour coverage every day? Beach Volleyball is important to the average American couch potato!

BTW, Jenn and I took part in a fund-raising bike ride on one of the middle weekends of the Tour, for the Lance Armstrong Foundation for cancer survivors (link here). A worthy cause, and a worthy effort by a great athlete.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Jeger
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:41 AM

What is this "lost on the majority of Americans" bit? I have followed this more than almost any sports event in recent times. I think Armstrong is awesome. The battle he had against cancer is a back drop which makes it all the greater.