BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:15 PM

I'm all for having public holidays for all religious and cultural festivals.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM

Right. I don't have any trouble with anyone, religious or nonreligious, who minds his or her own business and treats others resectfully. I do have a problem with governments telling people what they should or should not believe and practicing various subtle and not-so-subtle forms of mind control. Of course, they all do it to some extent, don't they? ;-) They just can't help themselves.

Grab, Chongo noticed your comment "you can pretty much count the non-white participants (in outdoor, non-playing field sports) on the fingers of one foot".

"That would be five, wouldn't it?" he said. "Sounds like a reasonable start."

I've noticed that there are VERY few Black hockey players. And it's always been that way, although it is very, very gradually changing at least here in Ontario. So? I suspect it is because the past tends to repeat itself. What I mean is, young Black kids growing up tend to idolize their heroes in what they see as their own cultural community and imitate them...which means they are very much more likely to be attracted to sports that already have a great many Black players on teams...football, basetball, baseball, etc...

A few will be drawn to hockey, and a few more, gradually as time goes by. It's a natural process that occurs in any society. Why worry about it or put it on some kind of government-inspired quota basis?

How many Blacks are drawn to country music in North America, for example? Very few...but a few are. Charley Pride was a notable Black country music singer....and I have known exactly one Black man in this area who liked playing country music. One. He was quite good at it too. I don't see any need to be worried about the fact that country music performers are almost all White (with a fairly noticeable Native American contingent too, I might add...).

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 11:06 AM

"While I am entirely in favour of multiculturalism, I think that it is best left to occur of its own accord in a completely natural way....NOT to be manipulated by government policy."

Agreed!

"It's utterly absurd, this kind of politically-correct sounding attempt to gradually dismantle a country's own original identity and replace it with some homogenized version of "world" culture."

And that's why I find myself at odds both with socialism and with capitalism, because both seem to lead inevitably to just this sort of homogenization. I generally have no problem at all with religious people (of whatever persuasion) who mind their own business and treat others respectfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Grab
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 11:06 AM

As usual, the Daily Mail is living up to its tabloid tendencies. Read what's actually suggested, and there's nothing controversial.

From my POV, I dearly wish there were more non-white people involved in outdoors activities. Indoor sports and playing-field sports, plenty of non-white people are involved at the highest levels. But look at hill-walking, rock-climbing, sailing, canoeing or any other outdoors activity which doesn't get TV coverage, and you can pretty much count the non-white participants on the fingers of one foot. :-( In our hang-gliding club whose catchment area covers the whole of East Anglia, we have precisely one black member, and he's an African immigrant. And if you go into the rock-climbing centres in Sheffield or Leicester, both located in an area with a massive Asian population, it's wall-to-wall whites.

And as far as the "birth ceremonies" go, you might like to consider that this is because too many parents don't consider they need to do anything in teaching their kids (that's teaching skills, facts or plain morals). "Schools should do it", or "shops shouldn't sell them alcohol/cigarettes/horror movies/computer games", or "broadcasters shouldn't show this at 9pm when kids might still be watching". Word up folks - this is *your* job, not the state's.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 11:02 AM

Keep religious celebrations in homes and churches where they belong, keep them out of the government and workplace, yes, and public schools

And cancel the Mudcat Secret Santa program, too.

This is an example of how any community can hold wildly incongruous values, and hold them deeply. On the one hand, there have been attacks on various religious ideas and belief sytems around Mudcat for years, sometimes vicious. On the other hand, the DT and music threads are full of dearly-loved religious music, and here in the BS section we have holiday-celebrating threads and activities of various sorts.

Meanwhile, some of the most widely-opposing viewpoints about spiritual and or religious "stuff" are FIERCELY held by pairs of Mudcatters who are running-- in parallel-- close, tolerant, and loving friendships online and, verily, forsooth, in the FLESH!

It's all good...but it's all, also, to some degree, quite nuts. C'est le Mudcat! Vive le Mudcat!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:59 AM

The report you provide the link to does have decidedly Orwellian overtones in certain respects, Morris. While I am entirely in favour of multiculturalism, I think that it is best left to occur of its own accord in a completely natural way....NOT to be manipulated by government policy. Furthermore, I think that an attack (of a procedural sort, I mean) on any cultural group in a society by deliberate government policy is totally irresponaible...and that is what they are proposing...an attack, in this case, on the traditional culture of British society. It's ridiculous. Should Russians attack traditional Russian society in order to achieve greater multiculturalism in Russia? Should the Japanese do so in Japan? Should the Belgians do so in Belgium? Should the Ugandans do so in Uganda?

It's utterly absurd, this kind of politically-correct sounding attempt to gradually dismantle a country's own original identity and replace it with some homogenized version of "world" culture. It's ludicrous. It's an attempt to inflict on one's own population what few would have the gall to inflict on another population in some distant place...unless, of course, they invaded that place and took it by force...in which case they would definitely have the gall to do that. ;-) We've seen examples of that lately.

As you said, the best idea to improve race relations worldwide would be to "stop invading and destroying other countries that pose no threat to 'the west'".   Bloody right.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

Ah, GUEST, would that it were so simple. "Keep religious celebrations in homes and churches where they belong, keep them out of the government and workplace, yes, and public schools", you say. But if you talk to religious people of whatever faith, they will inform you that their faith is with them all day long, and wherever they go. They don't hang it in the coat closet at home or keep it in a church or mosque or temple. They eat - or not - the appropriate things for their religion, they pray or follow other observances at the appropriate times, which (surprise) may well clash with working hours. They greet each other with the appropriate words, take the name of their God a number of times a day innocently ("God forbid", "in'sh'Allah" etc). They hold their religious parades and festivals. That is not the same as propagating their religion - merely observing its canons. Religion for them is a way of life, not a habit or an addiction like smoking, which they must keep out of sight lest they enrage the non-believers.

Let's not mix or confuse anti-religionism with multiculturalism. They are not the same thing. In my book anti-religionism is just another way to be fanatic, and equally as dangerous.

Neither is multiculturalism served my toning down the external signs and trappings of any religion. Quite the reverse, it ought to condone, accept, rejoice in and celebrate all of them.

We live between an English family (Church of England, visit it only for weddings and funerals, call them potential agnostics) and a Muslim one (from Bangladesh, very observant). And in the middle the Greek with his Easter-time frivolities like roasting lambs on spit and smoking crosses on the lintel over the door with the candle he brought lit from church. We join in each other's celebrations, and I love to see my Muslim neighbour on a Friday morning with his son, both dressed in their sparkling white kalabiyas on their way to the mosque. I will not look his young daughter or his wife in the face as I know it is offensive in their culture, even as I greet my own daughter's boyfriend who comes to stay and share her room and bed for the weekend. We may not agree with all of each other's practices. But we would not dream of criticising them.

That is multiculturalism: Absence of criticism of each other's cultural makeup and related behaviours. Not steamrollering them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 09:34 AM

LT, good point. "Would you go to Saudi Arabia and expect them to tone down Ramadan and Eid because you were a Christian or put a Christmas tree up for you?" Nope. Then again, you wouldn't have the option, they ban and confiscate all Christian stuff. The ultimate religious nation-state.

My 2 cents on the issue: If we could just keep religious celebrations in homes and churches where they belong, keep them out of the government and workplace, yes, and public schools. To me there is something more cheesy than an office Christmas tree, and I'm not too crazy about public school 'holiday' pageants. Let's give everybody 10 days a year to take off for whatever religious stuff they want to observe (or take an atheist's retreat, for that matter) and stop trying to drag God into the workplace and public school. If you want your kid to be in a ton of religious pageants and chorales, suck it up and pay for tuition at a religious school of your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

The USA is a nation founded on an idea, that all men are created equal, and despite peiods of xenophobia and know-nothingism, has pretty much maintained a policy of openness to newcomers from just about anywhere. When Americans talk about their "nationaliities," they are usually referring to their ethnic background, the nation(s) from which their forebearers emigrated to America.

The upshot is that the US has to face up to arguments about "multiculturalism" to an extent that no other nation on earth should have to. There is no conceivable reason for, say, France to give up French customs and holidays, Germany to "downgade" all things German, etc. Modern industrial nations, of course, customarily maintain an open door to immigrants, if only because there are some low-level jobs that natives won't fill, and therefore have an obligation to provide a somewhat welcoming atmosphere.

So should it be for Great Britain, but apparently these days, to some folks, it's not like that at all, and Bristish society is supposed to be equally open to all comers.

One mitigating factor, I would guess, is that more than one "nation" (in the ethnic rather than the political sense) in included in the United Kingdom. Despite centuries of interbreeding, there remain differences among the English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, and Irish/Ulsterite. Or, at the very least, differences beteen the Anglo-Saxon and the Celtic. Of course, all these groups are nominally "Christian" (or ex-Christian), and accustomed to Christmas in both its spritual and secular incarnations; there are no Mohammudans or Shintos, etc., among the competing tribes and clans native to those islands...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 04:15 PM

The 'second coming' is near. I agree with Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: DougR
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM

I believe there is a concentrated effort on the part of some people on this side of the "pond" to marginalize or even do away with Christmas. If they were to succeed, which I do not believer they will do, then all other "religious" holidays observed by other faiths should be abolished.

Personally, I love the Christmas season but recognize the right of those who do not, to go fishing on December 25th instead of celebrating Christmas.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM

"Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)"

I didn't do enough of anything in the 1960s to understand that kind of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM

Never mind these pathhetic little festivals that only come round for one day every year. Members of my own particular cult lie in bed all morning, every day, drinking port, eating chocolate truffles and doing the Guardian crossword. Membership is open to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 12:27 PM

I should have thought saying "last month" (meaning October on November 7th) was specific enough seeing as how the event has passed!

......or am I missing something?

perhaps I should have made certain I added 12noon to 8pm too? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

You just said last month Emma, be specific next time.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:33 AM

Rick Muir
the author of the original publication "The Power of Belonging: Identity, citizenship and community cohesion" on which this completely biased and totally misleading xenophobic article is based has replied in full yesterday to the sensational and inaccurate misrepresentation of his work.

Christmas is here to stay

He suggests that much that has been reported has come from the comments of Baroness Warsi* the Conservative spokeswoman on community cohesion

*(Lady Warsi, given a peerage by Mr Cameron so that she could join the Tory front bench, has stated that the "lack of control" over immigration was making people feel "uneasy". She added that the "face" of some communities was changing overnight because of the sudden influx of people from abroad, adding that "the pace of change unsettles communities" and that "people who vote for the far-right British National Party (BNP) have "some very legitimate views" on immigration and crime".

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:09 AM

Eid was celebrated in Trafalgar Square on 20th Oct Liz, Diwali was celebrated with a festival of light on 28th October

OK - maybe London was celebrating a little early as officially Diwali (although Oct 21st last year) doesn't start this year until Nov 9th - but I suppose festivals based on lunar cycles are a little more difficult to organize at a different time each year on that kind of scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 11:03 AM

so....do I get a year off every 4...or just Feb 29th?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:59 AM

We Atheists have many significant times, including Mitochondrial Eve, the Transit of Venus, the Leap Second (that's a fairly short break, the Light Year makes up for it though*), and so on. Do Wiccans have a Sabbathical Year now and again?

*Yes I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:48 AM

*sigh*...we multi-cultural societies sure do have a delicate problem....unlike Muslim countries where almost everyone agrees on what to celebrate & how. If we gave religious days off to everyone who might want them, very little work or schooling would get done! What if we were to add Ramadan, etc. to Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah?...and I'm sure I've missed some..

If I were to design the rules, anyone could take time off without penatly for their own religious holidays, but NO religious days would close schools and businesses. Wait....then atheists would say "unfair! We don't get ANY days off". See the problem?

The writer of the article has a vague point, but he sure won't get far just declaring folks traditions to be irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: bobad
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM

I propose coming full circle and replacing Xmas with a celebration of the return of the sun on the winter solstice. This would be all inclusive and besides I don't recall any wars being fought by opposing solstice factions.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Beer
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

So true.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 09:37 AM

It's even more heartbreaking for the children when you go into a shop at the beginning of July and you're confronted with 'back to school' offers before the little darlings have even finished school!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Beer
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 09:16 AM

A few years back I went into Zellers to get a few Halloween items and there to greet me was this excuse for a Santa shouting Ho! Ho! Ho!. Halloween wasn't even happening for another week. My blood began to boil and I walked away.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: topical tom
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 09:09 AM

Don't downgrade Christmas (for Christians). Downgrade the commercialism which starts much too early and lasts far too long.

    For those who believe put "Christ" back in Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:13 AM

-" I believe Diwali was celebrated by 30,000 people of all faiths in Trafalgar Square last month!"

That would have been Eid.

Diwali is Friday 9th/Saturday 10th November.

The lights are being switched on in Oxford Street tonight, which should be crowded. They should good this year, I know a chap who works for the company that made them!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 07:43 AM

In the US (which I don't necessarily think is a bastion of everything right), we have pretty much eliminated 'official" celebrations of Christmas as a religious holiday. I can't see that religiously-observant Christian children have been much harmed by its absence in public schools, and those who are other than Christian (and Jewish is our majority non-Christian religion) or non-religious are spared the official propagation of that faith. That doesn't mean that the entire country isn't decorated for the Christmas holidays by mid-December or that the stores aren't filled with Christmas presents and "decoration ideas" the day after Halloween/Samhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM

I think it has already been downgraded here in Harrogate. For several years now the Christmas lights in the town have been pathetic - cost apparently (even though people always think of Harrogate as a "wealthy" town).

I've been moaning about these lights for years ....... and I'm still doing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM

Another typical "PC Scare" headline from a "rag" more than adequately described by Geoff above.

For anyone with an attention span longer than the average gnat who can be bothered to read the actual article some very interesting points are raised for discussion by the Institute for Public Policy Research an INDEPENDENT progressive "think tank"


'Councils must act to "ensure children mix and are able to form friendships with pupils from different backgrounds".'

- well this would go against the current policy of encouraging segregation into "faith" schools, from experiences in sectarian Northern Ireland this seems like a good idea

The presence of bishops in the House of Lords, for instance, is condemned as an "anachronism" that should be removed.

- Amen to that

'Much more needs to be done to "ensure access" to the countryside for black and ethnic minority groups, disabled people and children from inner-city areas.'

- like this is a bad thing?

'"Even-handedness dictates that we provide public recognition to minority cultures and traditions.
"If we are going to continue as a nation to mark Christmas - and it would be very hard to expunge it from our national life even if we wanted to - then public organisations should mark other religious festivals too.'

- I believe Diwali was celebrated by 30,000 people of all faiths in Trafalgar Square last month!

Rick Muir, a Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research and co-author of The Power of Belonging: Identity, citizenship and community cohesion, has issued a full reply to this deliberately misleading and provocative headline on the ippr web site

"So, fear not! Christmas is safe and I for one will be tucking into mince pies and doing a last-minute dash round the shops this festive season. The political challenge is to combine respect for important traditions with a common identity we can all buy into, whatever our background."

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:50 AM

Yes, but John in Kansas - how daft are you going to look, going into Ann Summers and asking for a bowl of warm water...

I wonder if it makes you pee? You know, like putting the hand of a sleeping person into cold water will make them wet the bed...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:47 AM

But the sidebar article on how to fit your bra was interesting.

- - and much more reasonable/sensible/rational than the article linked (in the opinion of one whose opinion doesn't really count for much).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:20 AM

Let's face it, the article is from the Daily Scum. I can't recall a word of truth they have ever printed about any political party.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:10 AM

Didn't work when Oliver Cromwell tried to ban it in 1649, won't work now, although not for the same reasons.

It does not matter how many religions are represented in this country, Great Britain is a Protestant Christian country. Would you go to Saudi Arabia and expect them to tone down Ramadan and Eid because you were a Christian or put a Christmas tree up for you?

Christmas is not about giving presents to children, it's what you make it. If you have made your Christmas just about "the children", then you only have yourself to blame.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:33 PM

Michael, your personal decision to 'abandon' Christmas (because you find it "mindless") is very different from what is being suggested here. See also the point about "birth ceremonies" to cement a 'partnership' between parents and state - pretty damn creepy.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:09 PM

I think (and have for many years) Christmas should be abandoned altogether, as it's lost any meaning it may have had to mindless consumerism. If you want to give the kiddies some presents, do it on their birthdays.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:59 PM

Those suggestions are mind-boggling. Thank Jove that the Labour Party is in the UK, not North America.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:53 PM

Why don't they just hang a sign on England that says "Out Of Business" and have a huge rumage sale?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:45 PM

Somehow, I am reminded first of Festivus and then of the Festival of the Supreme Being (one was comedy, the other tragedy).

I really, really, REALLY hope this is a joke.

But I would love to hear from anyone who thinks this is a reasonable suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:40 PM

Doesn't this belong in the thread about PC going too far?

Subject: BS: Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:36 PM

Christmas should be 'downgraded'(?)

Is it me, or is this just a little bit nutty?

(here's my idea to improve race relations worldwide - stop invading and destroying other countries that pose no threat to 'the west')