Any folky baseball fans?

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 12:49 PM

You aren't Aldus Fogels by any chance? If so, Howdy!
Sadly it seems like in every other area, it's whether you get caught, that matters most. Don't try to tell me that more than a few baseball owners and execs have bet for/against their own teams. In the 50s and 60s, Bruce Norris (and brother James) owned the Detroit Redwings (and Chicago Blackhawks). These were mob guys and I'll bet (sorry wrong term) the gambling was monumental.

Rick

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From:
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 10:02 AM

I am both a Canadian and an avid Baseball fan. I certainly know who Pete Rose is. I do not thin he should be in the Hall of Fame anymore than I thin that Mr. Strawberry should be on the field or that Mr. Cordero should have been allowed to return to the game without having undergone intensive counselling. Gambling and betting on a sport in which you are actively involved shows not only bad judgement but a total lack of respect for the sport. These attributes should not be ignored in any playre. And they certainly should not allow that individual to be in the Hall of Fame. When are athletes ever going to accept responsibilty for thier actions.

aldus

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: johntm
Date: 29 Oct 99 - 09:20 AM

Rob What is made to buy Derek Jeter or Bernie Williams? Boston offered Williams more than the Yankees but he chose to stay with a quality franchise, and Jeter has been a star from day one. Did Pedro Martinez come free?

The series was boring, but maybe that is because the Yankees are so good and their manager so much better than the competition. It reminds of when baseball was baseball and Casey won 5 in a row.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 06:06 PM

Mudjack, who have they caught (betting on baseball games while employed as a player, coach or manager) that they did not do the same as the did to Pete?

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Mandochop
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 03:13 PM

Rick

To be honest, I'm not really sure about the current Pete Rose situation. I heard about the interview but never heard what actually happened. However, I will offer my view on the Pete Rose situation so many years ago.

I think it is disgraceful that he would place bets on the game he plays. It has been my opinion that too many sports are being ruined these days by the tidal wave of cash which is pumped into them. It is for this reason (and because I am a devout Red Sox fan) that the Yankees winning the world series last night does no interest me in the slightest. As soon as the two underdogs were knocked out, it became not the series to describe the two best teams of the decade, but a boring series between two rent-a-franchises battling for a title that has long since been payed for. "Team is Money" must be the favorite slogan of Ted Turner and George Steinbrenner. One of the reasons I love the Red Sox is that they have a comparitively low payroll, no more than 2 big stars, and yet they battled their way to the ALCS. They did this for one reason. They simply work well together. That and the fact that they have a spirited fan base and a great starting pitcher alone got them to the second round of the playoffs. Seeing New York dominate with their made-to-buy Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams is no fun. However, I digress.

The Pete Rose situation is similar. When you pump a lot of money into a sport, it becomes spoiled. Although Pete Rose may not have been a cheater, he may very well have inspired other players to throw games, or a mob boss to lay another heavy bet on "his" team. Rose is disgraceful for the same reason Joe Jackson was and it was right of the league to make an example out of him.

Rob

P.S. In Ireland, some of the most talented athletes in the world compete in two of the nations most popular and certainly most exciting sports, Hurling and Gaelic Football......for free!

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: johntm
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 02:06 PM

I have been a reporter for 30 years and I think that Jim Gray went too far. He had a right to ask the question once, maybe twice, then he should have dropped it. The time and the place were wrong.

I have not followed the Rose case that closely, but if he gambled, especially on his own teams, the punishment is fit. Based on his record he should be in the Hall of Fame, but apparently he did violate the cardinal rule, and still won't admit it.

The Team of The Century is a sufficient consolation prize.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: johntm
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 01:50 PM

I have been a reporter for 30 years and I think that Jim Gray went too far. He had a right to ask the question once, maybe twice, then he should have dropped it. The time and the place were wrong.

I have not followed the Rose case that closely, but if he gambled, especially on his own teams, the punishment is fit. Based on his record he should be in the Hall of Fame, but apparently he did violate the cardinal rule, and still won't admit it.

The Team of The Century is a sufficient consolation prize.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Mudjack
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 12:30 PM

But Jack, how about all the others that gamble? Pete Rose is not alone with the stigma of being a gambler. It is obvious he has been singled out as an example. There has been too many drug offenders ignored time and time again. Your arguement has merit but the Baseball Commission has to have some consistency in enforcing ALL of its rules. >br> Rick, I have went surfing by using "Pete Rose" and see where there have been sites that are taking polls and voting Yes or No on his re-instatement and of course to deaf ears. the baseball GODS are hard nose on this issue.
My vote is YES....Pete Rose to the Hall of Fame.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 12:11 PM

The warnings about gambling that baseball gives its employees are clear. Once you are discovered, you will be cut off from anything to do with organized baseball. You won't be allowed to work in baseball, you'll lose your eligibility for the Hall of Fame. You'll be banished from clubhouses. You won't be allowed to represent players in any way. You will become an anathema. (They might even forfeit their pension for all I know).

Thats what they tell them, over and over again.

And after 60 years of giving that warning, they discovered someone breaking that rule, and as if that wasn't bad enough, to their horror and incredible grief, it was Pete Rose.

Volumes have been written about our passion for the National Game, that strange enduring and unexplainable love. And in our lifetimes, if there was one player that personified that passion in its purest form it was Pete Rose. With other players there has always been that shred of doubt as to whether they actually loved the game as much as we do, or whether it was 'just a job'. With Rose we knew he loved it as much as we did and more. What's more, he still does. That makes his ban from the Hall unbearably sad to us. We want to deny it, to make excuses, to call for exceptions. Like in Romeo and Juliet, our hearts crave a different ending, anything but the one we are asked to accept, it is just too much to endure. "Can't you just ban him from working in baseball?" we cry. "Shouldn't we ignore his crimes and focus just on his performance? Isnt there something we can do, and exception we can make?"

But suppose we do. What are we saying? Or better, what are we asking baseball to say, the next time it gives its warning about gambling to its players and employees?

If you gamble on baseball you will be banished from the game and lose any future rewards or honors it might have bestowed on you--unless (a) you are Pete Rose, (b) that makes the fans too sad, (c) its unpopular, even if you refuse to admit the truth or apologize for it.

And dammit we meant it!

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Clifton53
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 05:06 PM

As a lifelong S.F. Giant fan, I hated Rose with a passion, especially after the Ray Fosse deal, which was uncalled for in an all-star game. But, the Hall of Fame is more than just a building. It exists in our minds long before it is walled up and placqued to death. Yes he belongs there,first ballot all the way. If they want to ban him forever from The Game,fine, but the hall is something different. Performance should be the only criteria.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: tomtom
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 04:35 PM

It's my understanding that Pete Rose ran up (something like) a $500,000 gambling debt with members of organized crime. This is no small thing--especially when you are managing a team and betting on your team. I don't know the details of what went on, but I think this type of thing is much more serious than Strawberry/Taylor/Howe-type deviations.

I'll never forget this time I was walking down the street in Las Vegas, early in the morning, and a sketchy looking character came up and asked me if I gambled. I said yes, though I'm not much of a gambler, really. He told me to "bet on the Angels with both hands." That night the Angels won 9-0. Coincidence? Perhaps. But I think that kind of thing goes on much more often than people would like to think. And if there's evidence someone has been involved in fixing or betting, maybe they should be made an example of.

My father's convinced Steinbrenner had the umps in his pocket for the ALCS. Being a die-hard Red Sox fan, I wish I could believe it, but I just think those SOBs blew it. Excuse me whilst I suck on my sour grapes.

Regards,
tomtom

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 02:58 PM

Whoops! Vox Populi. The people have spoken. Jim Grey appologized before the game and afterward Chad Curtis refused to talk to him...LIVE! Ol Jim must have felt a bit like Pete Rose did the other night!

Rick (a lifelong Yankee fan...oh maybe a Jays fan in 92 and 93)

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 06:55 PM

I've done as much reading as I've had time for today on this subject and I think I'm a bit more up to snuff on the situation. The evidence (that has been made public) certainly indicates that Rose bet on baseball games (and his own team) while managing the Cinci Reds. Naturally the witnesses are shady characters..but who else would have known of it? They've got fingerprints on betting slips etc. So..how long before he got in so deep financially that the mob would be suggesting certain line-up changes, or on-field decisions, in return for leaving his family alone? Sad situation, but I think the ban should stand. Now, as to inclusion in the "Hall", I think that's another issue. He should be in, with the ban explained either on his placque or in a seperate place.

Rick

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 12:00 PM

Gambling is the problem. It can lead to folks shaving runs and worse in order to line their own already overpaid pockets. The same gambling is now entrenched in American life in a way that it never was before. The politicians see it as the goose that laid the golden egg----no matter how many individual lives it destroys while it, as they always tell you, makes jobs for thousands.

Personally, I watched gambling in these cash magnet boats on the rivers of America cause a wonderful family to sell the great steamboat Julia Belle Swain---a boat that was designed and built by them from scratch. Gambling KILLED the excursion business on the Mississippi River for enough years that, in order to save their other, more modern, boat, their pride and joy had to be put on the market. I saw some pretty good friends lose their jobs---me (my gigs) included.

So keep in mind that baseball, which is a pretty big business that gets by on the good will of it's fans, MUST keep gambling out of the equation---just as some religions, rightly or wrongly, need to toss out those that won't toe their line. (Some in my family have been adversely affected by this not very pleasant practice with all kinds of physical and mental repurcussions--TO SAY THE LEAST.)

It's a matter of survival pretty much. Not fun. But I can at leat see that the assholes have to do what they wind up doing.

Do get complicated, don't it?

Art

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 11:32 AM

I used to love watching Pete Rose. I was really sad and disappointed when his transgressions came to light. But, I don't think any of them are angels and I think he should be judged on how he played the game and he did a fantastic job.

Whether is it right to compare or not, I, as a woman, esp, am outraged that Tyson is being allowed to ever pound his fists at anyone ever again in a professional sport or not. I am sickened by the avarice and the stupid fans who want to see him fight, again. He should be banned for life.

I say, forgive Rose and install him in the Hall of Fame; he was a damn good player.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: bob schwarer
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 11:19 AM

When was Joe Jackson forgiven. I missed something, somewhere.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Fortunato
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 10:26 AM

There is baseball the game. There is also Baseball the American Icon. You can screw up in baseball the game, but if you screw with Baseball the American Icon, you will be guilty of heresy. Heresy brings excommunication. Shoeless Joe was dead. The dead can be forgiven.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 09:50 AM

The thing about the Rose situation is this.

Since 1920, baseball has had one inviolate, draconian, absolute rule. This rule is posted on large signs in every clubhouse from the majors on down through the minors. It is one of the first topics covered at the beginning of every spring training. Veterans are instructed to tell warn rookies about it, coaches are instructed to remind veterans about it, general managers are instructed to remind coaching staffs. It is written into the basic contract of every professional player. If they could, the commisioners office would tattoo it on the inside of the players eyelids.

It is paraphrasable as follows.

We don't want you involved in gambling, especially gambling on sports. Don't befriend gamblers. Don't place bets. Stay away from it. BECAUSE IF WE FIND OUT THAT YOU ARE INVOLVED IN GAMBLING ON BASEBALL WHILE PART OF AN ORGANIZED BASEBALL CLUB IN ANY CAPACITY, YOUR LIFE IN ORGANIZED BASEBALL WILL END, UTTERLY, PERMANANTELY, AND SWIFTLY! BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND MIND. WE WILL CONSIDER MERCY FOR ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT THIS. AT THE MOMENT YOU ARE FOUND GUILTY, YOU WILL RECIEVE NOTHING MORE FROM ORGANIZED BASEBALL FOR THE REMAINDER OF YOUR NATURAL LIFE AND BEYOND. JUST SO YOU KNOW THAT WE ARE SERIOUS, IF YOU ARE FOUND TO FRATERNIZE WITH GAMBLERS SO THAT THERE IS SO MUCH AS AN APPEARANCE OF MISCONDUCT, WE WILL SUSPEND YOU, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE (yes even you Mr Steinbrenner).

It is baseball's equivalent of the signs you find on the fences of some military installations. IF WE FIND YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS FENCE WE WILL SHOOT YOU WITHOUT WARNING!

So in that context, comparisons with other sports or other infractions like drug abuse, cheating in games, or criminal activity off the field are irrelavant. Rose is not being judged in comparison with other players in baseball, or other players in other sports, nor in the context of other kinds of violations. It is being judged against the most well explained, highest priorty rule in the world of sports. Once the commisioners office determined that Rose broke this rule, they had no other course of action before them. They still don't, even though in their hearts they probably wish they did. The decision is wildly unpopular with the fans. It represents nothing but sadness for the game.

As far as what Pete Rose deserves, my view is that he earned a great honor, and in the end, willfully threw it away, and that's his own fault.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 01:24 AM

Its funny that we all think of Hornung in that gambling probe. Why don't we ever mention Alex Karras? I thought that was about as hard as anyone needed to go on the gambling thing....and I would like to see Pete "come clean"..but I don't see him doing it after all that's gone on, especially after the tax situations.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 01:12 AM

I don't think there is a direct correlation between the off-field sins of Lawrence Taylor, Darrell Strawberry, and others and the Pete Rose situation. Pro sports has always been acutely sensitive to the accusation that games might be thrown or fixed, and this is for good reason- the issue of untainted effort and competition lie at the heart of what makes sports exciting. It went hard for the Black Sox, Hornung, and Rose because they violated this rule, a violation which constitutes a failing on a personal level(like drug abuse), but a lethal strike at the heart of League Sports on a professional level. And, in addition, Rose lied about his gambling involvement, and continues to deny it.

I don't blame Pro Baseball for taking a hard-ass stance on this, and for making an example of Rose. However, I do think a sufficient amount of time has passed that he should be seriously considered for the Hall of Fame, and I think that the Reporter went after him too hard, and in the wrong venue. I DO think Rose needs to make a clean breast of it.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 01:09 AM

Yeah, that's the thing Max......Its the BASBALL Hall of Fame, not the "Wonderful Human Being Hall of Fame."

And as you noted too, we seem to give so much leeway to others who have given so much less to their sport.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Max
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 01:00 AM

I read that Ty Cobb beat up a fan that was harpn' on him even though the fan had no arms.

Ted Williams was no gentleman neither.

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 12:29 AM

Charley Hustle played the game with avengeance. He played with a passion that overcame his "moderate" talents. Lesser men would have spent all their careers in AA, warming the bench...that was about the extent of his raw ability. But man what that drive and passion can do! No, his private life was less than perfect, but gawd knows there are plenty in the HoF who were complete assholes--Cobb comes readily to mind.

The Hall of Fame is about baseball. How in the hell can you keep a player like Pete out? He ran afoul of Black Bart and that was that. Just ridiculous.......

When I want my sons to learn the importance of passion in life, doing their best and giving more than they have, I'll let them watch Pete Rose play baseball...and Cal Ripken, Minnie Minosa, the entire "Big Red Machine," the Mick playing thru pain, Rocky Colavito, Yogi, Roy Campanella, Dale Murphy, Jackie Robinson, Robin Roberts, Joe Nuxhall, Brooks Robinson, Stan Musial, Bob Gibson, Duke Snider, and on and on.........some had admirable family lives, some didn't, but the lesson is about giving your all.

Pete Rose not in the Hall of Fame? Like Folk Music without Pete Seeger...just ain't right is it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 11:51 PM

Verrry aggressive interview wasn't it? The gambling issue seems to be infinitely more important to the league powers that be, than rampant drug use, wife beating, etc. Wonder what would happen today though if Pete were playing at star level. Figure they'd find a way to keep him in between the white lines. I know they'd love him to fess up and then (IMO) he'd be pardoned in a year, but it JUST AIN'T HIS STYLE, is it? Wonder if others have bet on baseball recently? My guess is lots....Oh well they finally let Shoeless Joe in didn't they?

My friend Stan Maleski has been a life-long buddy of former catcher Ray Fosse. He told me once that Fosse still can't believe how hard Pete Rose hit him in that all-star game.

Rick

Subject: RE: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Max
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 11:37 PM

I think Pete Rose is a great baseball player and a pretty damn good guy. Considering what we have watched the trouble that modern baseball, and especially modern football players have gotten in, and still (Lawrence Taylor) gotten into the hall of fame, Pete is AOK in my book. He had a long and prosperous career, had a lot of heart and integrity, and set BIG records. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

The reporter the other night got an award for his agressiveness with Mike Tyson (another world class trouble maker) and made it his schtick. BACKFIRE. Too many people are sympathetic to Pete Rose, and its been over 10 years. We forgave Marv Albert in a year of so. The reporter screwed up.

Subject: Any folky baseball fans?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 11:30 PM

Please my friends, indulge me. 99% of my last million posts have been music related, but I really wanted to throw this out to the Vox Populi.
Does anyone have an opinion on the Pete Rose situation? I've asked at least a dozen people in the last two days, but being Canadian, they either don't know who Pete was/is, don't care, or have so little of the information that I spend twenty minutes explaining. By then I don't care what their opinion is. Not sure if any mudcat folkies care either, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Thanks.

Rick