Mistaken composer credits

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Declan
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

Mr Dylan has done a lot of recycling over the years. As well as some of the examples quoted above his "I pity the poor emigrant" is sung to the air of Tramps and Hawkers, and there are quite a few others.

One of the songs on his latest album is to the air of "Red Sails in the Sunset", by Irish songwriter Jimmy Kennedy. I don't think he has ever sought to disguise the fact that a lot of his material is borrowed from the tradition, but attribution has not always been as accurate as it might.

As for Metallica and Thin Lizzy, it is more or less a direct lift from the Thin Lizzy version of the song. I used to own a copy of the Thin Lizzy single, but I have no idea whether they attributed it to Mr. Trad or not. It is a pretty distinctive arrangement.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Lucius
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 04:26 PM

Can someone explain why, upon hearing the theme to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, the too-oft repeated reply is "Oh, Beethoven wrote Ode to Joy. It was a folk melody".

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

I guess that could be true, aussiebloke. It's possible Metallica (and the DJ) had only ever heard the Thin Lizzy version, and were actually copying that. But I know what you mean!

I often hear radio DJs refer to 'original' versions of songs that I know weren't the originals.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: aussiebloke
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 09:31 AM

I once heard a radio DJ announce: "here is the Metallica cover of the Thin Lizzy hit; Whisky in the Jar"

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:02 PM

'do, re, mi, fa, so' - erm, I count five notes...!

(Runs away dodging missiles, chuckling evilly!!)

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Songster Bob
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM

"This Land" does NOT use "Little Darling Pal of Mine" for its tune, but another Carter Family-recorded song, "When the World's On Fire" (I think that's what it's called).

"Little Darling Pal" only resembles either of the other songs in the first four notes, which are do, re, mi, fa, so are hardly distinctive. You could cite the bass runs to play "Study War No More" and get closer to "This Land" than "Little Darling."

But citing similarities between tunes isn't really about composer credits anyway, is it?

Bob

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM

Interesting point George, about Greek music. It's a long time since I was there (too long!) but I remember wanting to buy some music to bring back (on vinyl - shows how long ago!) and finding a lot of Theodorakis music in the shops. At first, in my ignorance, I thought he must be a Greek pop or "easy listening" singer (doh!), until I realised he was the composer of the music on these records.

Let's hope it won't be too long before we see "a Papavgeris concert by artists X and Y" :-)

Thinking about it, I tend to file my songs (mostly not really mine of course, but the ones I sing) under composer/writer rather than the artist I may have heard it sung by (often the same, but not always), so that supports your view.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:13 AM

As for classical musical, there was a fair bit of borrowing / quoting / arranging went on there too. Trad arr JSB.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scoville
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:47 AM

"Keep on the Sunny Side"--again, not the Carters but words, at least, by Ada Blenkhorn, ca. 1899.

But then a lot of stuff attributed to the Carters isn't by the Carters. I don't think that diminishes them since they certainly collected, arranged, and publicized a lot of really good songs, though.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

Sure they're both important, Scrump. In an ideal world both will be excellent. However, if pushed for a preference, I will take content over presentation any day, i.e. an excellent song, that has something to say or that can move, albeit sung badly, is preferable to a polished and showy performance of a song that says nothing. Indeed, the latter can be a definition of pop music, for some.

Yesterday morning on the radio as I was driving to work I heard Ronan Keating give an excellent performance of a song with the following chorus: "I love what we do, 'cause we do what we do till it's done; I love what we do, 'casue we do what we do and it's fun". 'Nough said. This morning, same programme, Ronan Keating again singing a different chorus, much more interesting musically too, with very decent lyrics and the refrain "You say it best when you say nothing at all". Both were love songs; same performer; but yesterday's song nearly made me throw up, while today's had me scrambling to find the composer.

In my home culture, all contemporary music is attributed to the composer as a matter of course. Contemporary composers and songwriteres are revered and they have stronger following than the best performers. Don't ask me whay this is so, I don't know. But major concerts in stadia are regularly staged under the name of the composer/songwriter ("a Theodorakis concert with artists X & Y").

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:16 AM

That's one advantage you have, George - you can take the credit for both! :-)

IMO both presentation and content are important though.

But classical music has always been different in that respect - the composer has always been given priority over the artist, in record catalogues/shops it's always listed by composer; whereas for every other type of music (pop, jazz, folk, easy listening, etc., etc.) it always listed by artist. This has been the case for as long as I can remember, not just the past 20 years or so.

If folk music were treated the same way as classical, there'd be a lot in the "Trad Arr" section in the record shop! :-)

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:45 AM

I share your view, autolycus; I see it as just another sign of how far we have come in the last 20 years or so in valuing presentation over content.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:36 AM

I've always found it irritating that,unlike the classical stations,where the composer is always mentioned,on popular stations,it is always the performer who seems to be the point,andthe composer's name rarely given.






       ivor

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:51 PM

I've heard Aragon Mill (Si Kahn) introduced as "the Irish folk song, Belfast Mill."
Nic Jones recorded two Harry Robertson songs as trad on the Penguin Eggs vinyl
(I gather the mistake has been corrected on the CD re-release).

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

I'm not sure of the tune comparison offered above in regard to "Little Boxes"/"There's A Pawn Shop On the Corner in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania". The latter was written by Bob Merrill, copyright 1952, (Tune Uke as A D F# B) The refrain is basically in G and D7, wheresas Little Boxes chords are A-DA/AEAE/A-DA/-E-A per Rise up Singing. copyright is 1962.

Also, I assume "Done Laid Around, Done Stayed Around" aka "Gotta Travel On".

"I Come And Stand" uses tune of "Great Silkie".

How about all the diferent lyrics adapted to "Rosin The Beau"? At least, it is usually credited properly.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:24 PM

Big one happened in the movie biz. "The Sting" music by Marvin Hamlisch should have been music by "Scott Joplin" adapted and arranged by Hamlisch.

I wonder about "Black Is The Color of my True Love's Hair". Jean Ritchie sings a myxolydian version of it but Niles claimed he wrote it. His is in a minor key.

A.P. Carter did not write "Wildwood Flower". 1860 by Maud Irving and J.P. (?)

When you get to the tunes:

"God on Our Side" (Patriot Game) (earlier versions of One Morning In May)
"Masters of War (Notamun Town)
"Roll On Columbia" (Irene Goodnight)
"This Land is Your Land" (Little Darlin' Pal of Mine but earlier hymn version)
"Smetana's Moldau" (Hatikva)
"Pastures of Plenty" (Pretty Polly)
"I Ain't Got No Home in This World Anymore (Jesse James) and an earlier hymn.
"Little Boxes" (There's a Pawn Shop On the Corner in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania)
"Angeline The Baker" (Angelina Baker by Stephen C. Foster)
"Done Laid Around, Done Stayed Around" (I Got a Home in GloryLand) and (Do Lord Deliver Me)
Then there's the problem of Tom Dooley. Frank Profitt did not write it but successfully sued the KT over it.
"12th of Never" (Riddle Song)
"Delta Dawn" (Come and Go With Me To That Land)


Maybe some more ideas....much of the tunes were in public domain but I bet they had composers some where.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

Leadfingers, I hope you don't mean we will have to register a set list with some jobsworth at the local town hall in triplicate, at least 25 working days before a gig, accompanied by the appropriate licence and administration fee?

Or did you mean we should just announce who wrote the songs (if known of course)? I do that anyway as a matter of course, because I like to spread the word about artists I admire and whose songs I pinch to sing myself.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:22 AM

There are a few of us - Admiral and Trayton apart from myself who have a 'Mission', to get attribution of songs sung in clubs as a matter of course , wether it be composed or trad ! The more information is out there , the less chance of mis attribution .

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:51 AM

On a recent, 2006, CD of Robert Tannahill songs the tune 'Donald Couper' is wrongly attributed to him. It was printed in Herd's collection in 1776 when Tannahill was two years old. The compiler confused it with a song called 'Hey Donald! How Donald' printed in the same volume of R A Smith's collection, 1820.
The same compiler incuded a song of mine in a collection of Burns'! It's advertised on the web as 'includes the tracks A Man's a man for a' That, The Lovely Lass of Inverness and Glencoe' (mine).

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM

LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:34 AM

I wish! No, it was a case of a couple of radio stations playing a song and forgetting to include my name in the PRS submission (or perhaps being too scared to spell it!).

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:30 AM

That's interesting George - you mean people have been singing your songs without knowing you wrote them? You're well on the way to becoming 'Trad Arr' :-)

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:23 AM

Correct - it pays to crawl through that file once a year, I picked up £50 that way last year.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:21 AM

Thanks for that, George. I've occasionally seen a song unattributed on the record, where it appeared the artist who recorded it didn't know who the composer was (this seems more common in folk music than other genres, IME). I assume this also goes into the "unresolved" category too.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:05 AM

Royalty payments are driven by the registration of the songs. So, if a work is registered as "by composer X" (and this can only be done by X in person or by their agent/publishing company), then that is where the royalty payments will go, whether from airplay etc (PRS in the UK) or new recordings (MCPS in the UK). The fact that the work may be wrongly attributed to Y instead of X on the CD cover may lead a DJ playing the piece to declare it as a work by Y in the PRS submission, but that will nevertheless be automatically checked against their database and corrected, or at worst it will go into the "unresolved" files, which every registered artist/composer has access to, and they can correct it there.

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:50 AM

More serious is when tracks on CDs get wrongly attributed. Has anyone experience of doing this, and what was done to rectify it? I assume something has to be done to get the royalties back from the 'wrong' composer and given to the right one?

Subject: RE: Mistaken composer credits
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:06 AM

Our local symphony did a great performance last weekend of Sarka (Symphonic Poem No. 3 of Ma Vlast) (Moldau is #2). My Czech friend and I went to different performances, and we agree the director said the piece was composed by Dvorak - later on, he redeemed himself by identifying Smetana as the composer, but I don't think he realized he had goofed earlier - both days.

I suppose I have to admit you can find some doozies in the Digital Tradition - but Susan of DT is working on clearing up those misattributions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: Mistaken composer credits
From: GUEST,Bernie
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:15 AM

I just attended a choir concert. The director made a big deal about introducing the gospel song "Take My hand Precious Lord" as being composed by Tommy Dorsey the bandleader. 200 people left the concert believing this to be true, when of course it was "Georgia Tom" Dorsey, who composed this song.
Do you have any other similar gaffs?