BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:34 AM

Well the best thing the Swiss have managed to come up with after thousands of years of "civilisation" is the cuckoo clock.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:46 AM

It's also worth noting that Switzerland was only last year finally forced to come in line with other EU countries in agreeing to scrap its notorious banking secrecy rules which enabled money laundering and tax evasion on a legendary scale. And don't mention the war, to quote Basil. The country is also part of the Schengen zone, allowing free movement across its borders. In order to retain its good relations with the EU, it quite rightly has to abide by these EU rules.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

I'm hoping Wales become independent, then join the EU and as my mum is Welsh I can get a Welsh passport and become part of Europe again.

Bloody Saxons.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

Wales can get in line behind London which at least wants to be in the EU

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:25 AM

Lots of us want to be in the EU. My home town voted remain, so despite the fact the map shows the only orange as NI, Scotland and London, the UK is speckled with orange in reality.

Wales get behind London? Twll dy din.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 AM

We live in a democracy, if you add up all the orange speckles, you will find that the sum is a larger number than the other colour.

Perhaps democracy disturbs you when you are on the losing side?

The only way in which the result of a referendum can be determined is by a democratic first past the post vote.

Brexit had the largest number of votes....."Get used to it"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

In saying that, I am sure determined attempts will be made to overturn the democratic result.

This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion.......for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.

You can't make this stuff up!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

"...for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."

And Farage isn't? That poster? "Not a shot fired" etc etc

The result stands, but Leave lied and blustered their way through the campaign (they've taken their website down because people were pointing at it and saying "but you said..."), and had zero plan for what would happen if they won. We still don't know what the plan is, the pound has tanked (this does affect business, as my brother has mentioned his costs have risen 6% on the back of the vote) and the country is rudderless.

Now Johnson has led us out of Europe and then fucked off without clearing up the mess he's made. Gove stabbed him in the back and the execrable Farage gloats and sneers at anyone stupid enough to listen.

We have no leadership at a time of real crisis, and "This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion..."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Well now, let's have a look at some aspects of this "democratic result." The out campaign was predicated on the lie that leaving would drastically reduce immigration. Well it will not. Apart from the fact that we're just as "weak" at controlling the immigration that we CAN control, that from outside the EU, we will probably have hordes of expats coming home when they find that their EU membership advantages are evaporating. All those extra wrinklies to look after!   Poor old Tory-ravaged NHS! Next, a large majority of eligible voters did NOT vote to leave the EU. 52% of those who voted voted to leave. 48% of those who voted voted to stay. Another 28% of the TOTAL ELECTORATE also did NOT vote to leave. This is important because the referendum was extremely lopsided. An in vote could easily have been overturned by another referendum (and it's a good bet that you'd have been calling for one). The out vote, once buttons have been pushed, is irrevocable. That is what I mean by lopsided. I don't remember the out campaign making that clear. I do remember a lot of lies about "controlling our own borders," pretending via a disgusting, racist poster from your hero Farage that refugees, mostly black ones, were the same thing as EU immigrants, and about "taking back control," though the oil companies and the stock markets and the yanks, who "control" us a damn sight more than the EU ever does, didn't seem to get a mention. Very democratic, eh? Your democratic referendum has led to political chaos and a country split down the middle, not to speak of massive uncertainty and loss of confidence in the UK economy. So the campaigns were both predicated on lies and scaremongering. Yes, both. Expert politicians cynically denying the ordinary people the true facts on an extremely complex issue has nothing to do with democracy in my view. One outcome in particular, the crowing by ignoramuses such as akenaton, is ample evidence of that.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

..all the way through the 'debates' Boris reminded me of coke addled commission only legal services and trade magazine advertising salesmen
I had to spend my working day with back in my lowest point of the 1980s..

The kind of egotistical obnoxious 'alpha males' who boasted they could sell anything to anybody stupid enough..


mind you.. they were good for free drinks and food when they often put their prestige credit cards behind the bar
to build up a tab trying to impress us and buy our friendship...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 11:34 AM

In honor of the American inability to take anything with 100% seriousness:


American States Brexit Nicknames

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM

Won't happen. We had a big discussion of that in 1861 to '65. A lot of "Leavers" are still crying unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 03:04 PM

"for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."
No it isn't and it's significant that you do not describe the blatant racism of the entire Brexit campaign as "racist Fascism", which it was
One man's meat and all that....!
And still nonr of you have acknowledged that the result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened British jobs and has possibly caused the break-up of the United Kingdom - patriots and "socialists" eh....!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 05:43 PM

Of course Mr Farage is not a Fascist, his actions on this issue prove that he is definitely a democrat......he started this campaign almost single handed, was subjected to hysterical abuse, even on these pages as he illustrated the corruption an ineffectiveness of the EU project.
Only latterly was he joined by all other mainstream parties in questioning the policy of unregulated immigration.
Finally he has emerged victorious while his "liberal" enemies lick their wounds and plot revenge.

To attempt to overturn the result of a legal democratic vote because you don't like it....IS Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 PM

I don't know which is more sickening, Ake - your hero-worship of The Trumpshit or of Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 03:34 AM

Greg, I understand and respect your point of view, but I don't think there is any point in you being insulting or distorting my words.

I have never supported Mr Trump, if I had a vote it would have been for Mr Sanders. I simply think that at the very least, in Foreign Affairs and in the interests of World Peace Mrs Clinton would be a disaster......her record speaks for itself and how anyone who claims to be "of the left" can possibly stomach her.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

"I have never supported Mr Trump2
Your politics do
You certainly support racist scum like FARAGE
A "democratic" racist - new one on me!!
What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:48 AM

What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll
Yes, indeed.
Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit.
One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country, and prejudice some against those immigrants who have already settled here, and integrated well into their/our communities.

The Brexit vote was not so much against immigration, as against unrestricted (or uncontrolled) immigration.
Of course it suited the Remain camp to be able to paint those who wished to leave Europe as xenophobic, but lies were told on both sides of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

So what about small businesses and workers n the meantime?

For the security of small businesses and workers, until such change to trade terms has been mutually agreed, then access to the single market, and all the conditions that go with it still stand. In that case surely small businesses and workers should be entitled to representation in the decision making process that inform these conditions. Therefore UK should either have a say in the European Parliament and Council of Ministers, or their should be a joint a several obligation for the other 27 states to represent UK small business and workers interests.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM

I have never supported Mr Trump,

Oh PLEASE, Ake- go back and read your own posts fer chrissake.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:12 AM

"Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit."
And just as many didn't
The decision was passed by a marginal majority which means a large unknown number of British people neither supported nor opposed it so neither side can claim they have overall support.
Scotland and Northern Ireland opposed it to the extent of suggesting that it was time they broke with the U.K. (why do done of you fellers have the bottle to deal with the fact that this decision has threatened the very existence of the U.K. - isn't it important to you?)
"One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country,"
One does need to be a racist to have mounted the kind of campaign Farage mounted - likewise those who voted only on the question of race and immigration - the economic and political consequences have proved disastrous since the decision was taken and stand to get worse.
This campaign was Powellism writ large.
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:50 AM

A further observation
I've travelled a far amount - the length and breadth of these islands, East and West Europe, North Africa, even into the fringes of Asia, and have been left with the impression that in general Brits are like some wine, they don't travel well.
We have an appalling track record on languages and expect people to be able to speak English, we can be aggressive and demanding when we don't get what we want when we want it, we speak down to people, often loudly.
As holidaymakers, we take over places and ruin them - Faliraki, Aya Nappa, whole stretches of coast in Spain - I used to love Northern Crete until the yobs moved into the towns.
As residents, we form little enclaves of "our own kind", such as in Cyprus, and the White Villages of Southern Spain -
In one of my favourite parts of the world, Northern Greece, British property firms are setting up here to sell homes to Brits to the extent that locals can no longer afford to buy homes there..
We are neither good tourists not are we good migrants.
Flip the coin the other way and you find that most immigrants come to Britain speaking English, they set up businesses, of ten filling gaps that we don't want to occupy, their kids are high achievers at school and, despite sometimes violent racist harassment, they integrate when they are allowed to.
In spite of the reputation laid on them by the racist press, a survey a few years ago revealed that MUSLIMS integrate well into British society.
They certainly make better migrants than we do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:11 PM

I take comfort from the adage attributed to Sir Winston that democracy is a rotten form of government except for all the others. What I find scary is that a democratic form of government can degrade to something ill and violent and not be reversable - ever. Orwell's opus "1984" illustrated this brilliantly, especially the afterword on Newspeak where he demonstrated how regulating the language regulated thought.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the E U is imperfect but better than nothing and has strong bureaucratic institutions which are enraging. I think that most people voted for leave or remain without necessarily understanding the institution. Not unlike Americans, the hype of both sides exceeded sober reflection.

On the other hand I understood that English was the most common tongue used among the European Union states. Kind of ironic that the master of the language should drop out participation.

My take is that the U K leaving the E U lessons its influence without changing the overall trade regulations that are required by the E U. The U K must have something greatly to gain in its relationship with the non E U world to make the Leave vote worthwhile. I don't know what that is.

The issue of control over its own immigration is the part of the issue I know least about, but it seems to me that this is a European wide problem which won't go away simply by the U K peeling out.

I think the BRexit vote is overall unfortunate but not a disaster, just indicative that disaster is possible, because we are free to vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

Please do not condemn me for my linguistic abilities. I have taken the trouble to learn Czech - I have enrolled in classes for several years, but I do not have an aptitude for languages so I am very slow to remember grammar and learn vocabulary. I am picking up more and more organically when I visit Praha or my partner visits me, but it is still hard. Please do not label me as a racist because of this.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 12:50 PM

'We are the 48%': tens of thousands march in London for Europe
'We've been disenfranchised and hoodwinked,' say protesters as hotel chambermaids come to the windows to cheer.

Ed Vulliamy

Saturday 2 July 2016

The hollow, bitter wit of the banners and placards was a fair indication of who took to the streets of London, in their tens of thousands, on the March for Europe on Saturday, hastily scrambled on Facebook. "And if this isn't big enough," said Jonathan Shakhovskoy, who is with a marketing firm in the music industry, "we'll do it again next week, and the week after. Normalise the mood, make it less ugly."

"Un-Fuck My Future", "No Brex Please, We're British", they read. Pictures of Whitney Houston with "I Will Always Love EU", "Europe Innit" and "I wanna be deep inside EU". "All EU Need is Love", "Fromage not Farage", "Eton Mess" and, more seriously, "Science Needs EU". "Hell no, we won't go!" they shouted, rounding Piccadilly Circus.

No one was fooling themselves that these were the penitent huddled masses from Ebbw Vale or Sunderland come to beg after all for EU funding; this was a vocal segment of the 48% for whom departure from the EU is a disgrace, a catastrophe or both.

"I'm here because I feel totally disenfranchised, hoodwinked and browbeaten into this political, financial and social suicide," said Mark Riminton, a business consultant from Sussex.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/march-for-europe-eu-referendum-london-protest

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:26 PM

The unexpected pleasure of the last week is old man Hesletine's TV interviews furiously criticising Boris..

Hesletine is hilarious in his brusque anggry sense of betrayal...

.. and to think.. when I was a student how much we despised him..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:57 PM

Ok. Jim Carroll, you can stop holding your breath.
I will respond to some of your 'facts', although I realise you will never be able to accept the response, as it clashes with your pre-conceptions:
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme (sic)
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes (sic) are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll

"There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe"
There are currently more than that working in the UK alone, and (for our sins) we are currently part of Europe.

"there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe." There are more than that on the dole in the UK alone (see the previous comment for definitions)

"there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide" Yes, I believe there are currently more than 30 million people working within the UK, which, last time I checked, is part of the world. I also fail to recognise a figure of "THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION " no matter how hard you shout it (use of block capitals) you cannot have point ninety seven of a million, perhaps you mean 3.97 million, or Three point nine seven million".

If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 02:35 PM

Well, Nigel, it was all perfectly clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 03:25 AM

ooer Missus, Trump+Boris image a bit out of date but then a day in politics is a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:21 AM

"If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you."
I make my points the best I can with my limited English education - I hadn't realised that you needed a certificate in literacy to take pert in these discussions - as it is, I don't think I do too bad for an electrician in the building trade.
Typos rule with you, as they do with the rest of your mob, it seems.
None of your points explain Brexit and they certainly won't when those now working in Europe start having to move back to a Britain without work.
The aim of your campaign is to stop immigration, or is the next step Powell's repatriation to the war zones - that would drag Britain down to sewer level.
We owe these people refuge, morally and historically.
We shaped many of the countries for the benefit of Empire and left them in a mess, we continue to back the monsters who run many of them, politically and with arms, and we fill our shops made by workers paid slave-level workers in factories falling on their heads.
The destabilisation of the Middle East came about so we could continue to but cheap petrol.
The snipers on the streets of Homs were probably trained with ammunition licenced to be sold from the U.K. and the chemicals used on the Syrian people may well have been developed using British-sourced components.
When Assad was doing his worst, Britain could have helped stop his gallop by seizing his London-held property and adding our voice to the protests - that's what his former henchmen who had defected were suggesting - they were ignored
Morally, we owe sanctuary to all people in trouble (Im not a Christian, but I do know that's what Christianity claims to be about)   
Wonder what the death-count would have been had Britain refused sanctuary to those fleeing Hitler - it is a similar refusal you people have voted for with this squalid vote.
Hope there weren't too many typos in that one for you to be able to follow it!!
Tories - don't you *******' love 'em!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

With nothing particular to contribute to the main discussion, feel I must deplore that recent unwarranted attack on Jim Carroll. He is one with whom I have frequently disagreed on threads - our pov's tend to be politically and ideologically chalk·n·cheesy. But I almost always find his points cogently and intelligently argued. Unlike the foolish character in that Jane Austen quote I am always citing, he well "deserves the compliment of rational opposition" — which that ill-natured & spiteful recent post did not provide!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Thank you Mike - the cheque's in the post
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

Welcome Jim: really meant every word. Trouble with irony tho, as I have remarked before, is that it can be a 2-edged weapon. Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!

☺≈M≈☺

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

"Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!"
Nah - he's a bright feller!!
Sorry I've not responded to your article by the way - silly couple of weeks, crashed car, lost wallet, ballad conference.
I will respond in detail#
Jim
(must ask you how you do those faces!)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

Nigel, I don't get your post at all. How does the number of British people working and claiming benefits in the UK have to to do with an illustrative example of the number of UK workers and Benefit claimants benefiting from free movement rules under the single market to show that people from the EU working and claiming benefits in UK is not a one ways 'burden to taxpayers'.   If you want us to also discuss your point, can you also give us the numbers of EU nationals working and claiming benefits in the rest of the EU, so that we have all the comparative figures on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

Michael, one word of advice.....examine that cheque carefully   ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

I always examine cheques carefully.

Jim, re the ☺·faces·☺ — On  - which my computer is - there is a 'special characters' app which one accesses by scrolling down to the bottom of Edit on the header menu. Don't know about other computers, but I expect such an amenity must be thereabouts somewhere.

No sweat about the Married In Green note. Sorry to hear of your troubles & travails. Look forward to your comments in duke-horse, but no rush.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

My point, which I may have failed to make clear, is that Jim's statements are pointless.
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other "facts" I quoted. As such the figures must be taken as inclusive of persons living in Britain. This makes the "fact" pointless in advancing Jim's arguments.

As Jim went on to say that it is hard to get responses on these facts, it would help if the meaning of the facts was made clear. It might just be that he uses 'Europe' to mean 'all of Europe except the UK' but that changes the meaning of his words.

If the facts are presented clearly and unambiguously then they can be either argued with, or accepted. But while they are ambiguous it is pointless trying to refute them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:32 PM

Here's my two-pennorth for what it's worth (about E0.024 at the last count). Although I was deeply disappointed by the result, I was resigned to accepting it. Then the Leavers started to shilly-shally and go back on their promises. Then I read this by A C Grayling, someone whose opinions I greatly respect, and my scepticism deepened.

Right now I think that the Leave negotiators (whoever they might be) need to give guarantees that they can make good the promises on which they won the vote. If that's not possible (and I can't see how it could be) then they should not press the Article 50 button and start the countdown. Simplistic? Maybe, but otherwise we are taking a huge step in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

As ruthlessly demonstrated.. the ends justify the means as far as Gove is concerned...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:59 AM

"This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other"
Meaning what? - there are that many Britons who stand to be sent back to a Britain that is unable to offer them a home of their own or employment
What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
Shortly after the result over a million people announced that they regretted voting the way they did and had only done so as a protest vote - they described their reasons for voting as they dis as having been told "lies" - that doubt has been confirmed by the lies already exposed and will grow as the full consequences become apparent.
This contest was fought on a single issue - immigration - and it has shamed Britain.
I attended a music conference last week made up of people from several nations - everyone I met condemned the decision outright.
Nobody here yet has had the bottle to comment of the possible break-up of the U.K. - presumably they don't care.
I never thought I'd ever live to see Britain voting on a racist issue (let's face it, the economic consequences were well-enough predicted, and fairly obvious).
Such an important decision should have required a considerable majority in favour in order to have been passed - less that %2 was irresponsible.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

Business confidence is dropping off a cliff as the Leavers bicker and jostle for power without any coherent plan for Brexit. This avoidance of responsibility is totally unacceptable, they need to get on with sorting their mess out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
I have made no such suggestion. Even Farage & Johnson have both made clear that they have no intention of repatriating those who already here legally. The point of regaining control of our own borders is just to allow the country to set limits on future immigration from the EU, as we already have the power to restrict immigration from outside the EU. How this equates to being 'racist' I fail to see. (many of those who would be caught by such measures are, in view of their being from the EU, Caucasians, just as I am.
Also I disagree that this was fought on a single issue. Those voting for leave may have been swayed by that issue, but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM

Hi Nigel

<" but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament ">

You are absolutely right.

Cheers

MNike

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:54 AM

What Stu means by falling off a cliff

As the Republic of Ireland use the Euro (Which they originally did not want to do and voted so in a Referendum) does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? Remembering of course that the UK Government only has to look after it's own currency and economy, while Germany has to look after the EU's Eurozone.

I think that MGOH is perfectly correct the Leave vote and the referendum result will stand - God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not - as the lesson that will strike home will be that anybody has the right to overturn anything if it does not suit them. The entire electorate of the country plus all UK Expats living in the EU had the opportunity to vote in the duly constituted EU Referendum on the 23th June 2016. Voter turn out was the highest seen for nearly one quarter of a century, which kinda suggests that those who wanted to vote did. If you don't like the result?? TOUGH.

The sky will not fall in, the world will continue to turn, politicians, civil servants, financiers and businessmen will continue to do what they always do - WHY?? Because it is in their MUTUAL best interests to negotiate deals and keep the train on the tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

"Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly?"

What!?! Last week the exchange rate was slightly over 1.30 euro to the pound. Today it is under 1.17 euro to the pound.

A drop of more than 10% So all our new imports will now cost 10% more than they did last week.

Is this supposed to be good news?

What planet are you on.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

" does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? ~
Blame somebody else as you did when the Northern Irish economy took a smack (then it was the quaintly archaic 'gombeen men")
The entire econimy of Europe and beyong stands to suffer after this stupidly bigoted decision to leave - pensions being just one of those effected
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/pensions/brexit-400000-britons-living-on-the-continent-could-have-state-pensions-frozen-a6898756.html
"God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not "
Would tat be the "democracy" that you claim makes us answerable to the State rather than the other way around?
Your Fascism and Democracy are contradictions in terms.
GLOBAL ECONOMY
"Jom's"
I can always tell when you're bluffing - your typing finger tens to shake.
Grow up, for fuck's sake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 12:37 PM

Interesting comment from Kenneth Clarke that perhaps some of the "leavers" on this site may want to consider.

Referring to Andrea Leadsom he said "she not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:16 PM

And who Raggy for one nano-second reckons that the UK will not trade with EU on mutually agreed terms - certainly NOT the Germans - they need us to buy their stuff more than we need them to buy ours.

If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives, in the meantime our goods and services have just got cheaper for foreign buyers boosting exports and foreign currency earnings - TRUE?