BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 02:39 AM

on the other hand Germany who runs the show, exports 20 per cent of their cars to the uk, do not want to lose that market.
i hope cmmon sense prevails and the UK is allowed to be in EEA.
there are other trade alternatives, but in my opinion it is better to be trading with countries geographically closer than the commonwealth or god forbid China, a country that to my knowledge has litlle respect for its workforce or the environment, a country that has been illegally occupying Tibet since the 1950s, a country that has boasted some of the most murdrous regimes of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:00 AM

I would accept EEA membership as second best as long as UK accepts its responsibilities - conforming with EU regulation, free movement of people, continuing to contribute to EU budget etc etc - but without the right to a say on what these responsibilities are.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

"Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs?"

Well, it's that simple isn't it? Despite what your leaders told you, the process of Brexit is neither simple or easy, and blurting out childish sneers might work in the absolutist world of Brexiteering, but the reality is far more nuanced and complex than that. If brexiteers were interested in healing divisions instead of gloating over their 'victory' then we might actually get somewhere. You're going to have to temper your expectations a bit, prepare for Brexit lite.


" Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? "

Well, a business person has to operate within the parameters and conditions imposed upon them by government, and they are subject to competition. In our capitalist society, competition is seen as a good thing (and of course it is, up to a point) but it needs to be fair and it needs to be lawful, and hopefully ethical. When we leave the EU our trading partners will become our competitors too, unencumbered by a regulatory framework that levels the playing field to allow countries to compete equally; this encourages diversity and more diversity means a more robust economy. Take this away, and you;re in a free-for-all, which is what we will be upon Bretix. May has to try to insult us from the worst of these effects, we can't simply leap into the unknown without careful thought, something the Brexit leaders (and their voters, reading this thread) seem to have given little thought to at all.

Free trade agreements are a series of deals, and each one has to be negotiated separately or you gang together to increase your bargaining power, and now we're out of the gang our bargaining power is much reduced; this is really simple stuff anyone who runs a business knows. Before we leave the gang, we've got to negotiate the best possible terms and this will mean some big compromises.


"This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?



"Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm."

More sneering, well done. The NHS represents what is best about our society; hard-working, caring and honest people dedicated to helping people and alleviating suffering, free for,all and paid for from taxation. It represents some of the best medical care in the world and the truth is, if you need it you'll use it and be grateful. It's the one thing that gives most people any faith in this country, and it should be protected and fought for with passion. Giving it over to predatory outside interests is not only bad for all of us who rely on the NHS but also would demonstrate the demise of our so-called 'British' values of decency and fairness. My doctor friends in the US are amazed we would ever even consider dismantling it for a US-style system, where people die from treatable illnesses because they have no money, or suffer for years for a want of prescription drugs or orations they cannot afford.

If we can't protect the NHS, a force for good born out of the suffering if the Second World War, then what is left worth protecting?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 07:10 AM

The "Oh goody" remark was in response to your rather idiotic take on the fact that tariffs might be levied, the way you described it they could only be levied on our goods - I merely pointed out to you that it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war.

It is blindingly obvious to any sentient human being that our disengagement from the EU will be complex, which is why I have said all along that any negotiations will be aimed at reaching a compromise solution to the mutual benefit of all. The EU will not seek to "punish the UK" to do so would be against its own interests.

Not so much a case of "Brexiteers" gloating Stu, more a case of those who voted to "Remain" proving unwilling to accept that the UK voted to leave the EU. But that too is something that the "Remainers" refuse point blank to accept - we re leaving the EU we are not leaving Europe or turning our backs on it.

Free trade agreements are an anathema to the EU as they challenge the inherent "protectionism" of the EU. One astounding fact that came out of the EU Referendum campaign was that Switzerland and Singapore have each individually negotiated trade deals with other countries in the world worth five times the deals negotiated by the EU. The EU has no trade deal in place with any of the nations of this world with the highest growth rates. Why? Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made - in short it is as achievable as herding cats or pushing water up a hill.

This point of yours to the following comment on something said by Akenaton:

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?

I would point out to you that according to the ONS there are more people in work in the UK today that at any point in its history - so what is the cost in terms of people's jobs?

As to quality of life? Purely judging what I have seen in the course of my own life (Grandparents generation; my own parents generation; my generation and my own children's generation) indicates a constant and steady improvement on all levels.

Greater equality nowadays than ever before.

Being in the EU or not has no effect whatsoever on the NHS in the UK, we had it before we joined and we will continue to have it after we leave. What standard we have in the NHS is entirely dependent upon us and if that means paying more in taxes then that is what we will have to do. But one undeniable fact is that as we are one of the eleven members of the EU who pay in more than we take out, just by leaving and keeping everything the same we gain what was our former net contribution - and that money can be allocated wherever it is needed - the choice is ours.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 08:09 AM

I fully accept the fact we're leaving the EU, so do most Remainers. What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better). As the Brexiteers also seem to hate the experts we need to negotiate the deals we will have to make then it is essential we have a range of positions in our teams.

"it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war"

A tariff war? Why provoke such a reaction? It would be rash to go into any negotiations with such an arrogant attitude as the Brexiteers seem to display. We know you hate foreigners, but you have to work with them and that includes the Europeans. Belligerent Little Britaineers being all bluster and puffy chested are the last thing we need, and most of the country has moved on from such anachronistic attitudes. In the real world we're not an empire any more, just one more nation becoming more insular and more isolationist.


"Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made"

Precisely the reason why the Brexit negotiations won't be the walkover the Brexiteers seem to think they will be. Our negotiating position is not as strong as some of us were led to believe, and the idea we will have access to the single market without the free movement is a fantasy, pure and simple.

Life is far more complex and unpredictable than some of your erstwhile leaders would have you believe. This will be long, drawn out and probably rather painful.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 01:16 PM

"Greater equality nowadays than ever before."
WEALTH GAP IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 06:51 PM

Stu, please name those who will be charged with participation in the negotiations that will govern the UK leaving the EU.

If you cannot do that then please consign all such emotive and irrelevant twaddle such as:

"What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better)."

To the dustbin - you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims - Article 50 has not yet been triggered base your arguments on reality not hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

It is interesting that Teribus states that as a majority voted to leave the EU the rest of the people will just have to put up with it and it is true we will.

However in the General Election of 1918 in Ireland when Arthur Griffiths said that if elected they would not take their seats in the houses of Parliament, but instead they would form an Irish National Assembly the Irish people voted 73 Republicans, 6 Parliamentary Party (Also Nationalist)out of a total of 105 seats. Just 26 seats polled a majority for the Unionists.

BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence.

79& had voted for a Republic 21% had voted for the Union.

This is rather more than the 51.9% to 48.1% of the Referendum. The British of course, as is their wont, refused to recognise the Irish National Assembly despite a clear mandate from the Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 11:32 AM

That of course should read that 79% voted for a Republic

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:09 PM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

Irrelevant twaddle Raggy.

Those elected were elected as part of a British General Election - note that Raggy, the fact that they decided not to take their seats at Westminster is actually the full extent of their protest.

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800. To dissolve that Union requires an Act to be passed by the Westminster Parliament.

The same was true and would be true for the last and any future independence referendum for Scotland, for that referendum to be held it requires an Act of Parliament to be passed by Westminster, for the Union to be dissolved an Act of Parliament has to be passed by Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:39 PM

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800

Was that the result of a plebicite in which all the Irish were able to vote?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

Care to let us in on any country in 1800 who held plebiscites Greg F.

The Irish Parliament voted on and passed the 'Act of Union (Ireland) 1800', and the British Parliament voted on and passed the 'Union with Ireland Act 1800'

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

I didn't really expect any other response Teribus.

Arthur Griffiths said BEFORE the election that any elected candidate to the nationalist side would NOT take their place in Westminster but would form a Irish National Assembly.

The people knew that and voted accordingly. SEVENTY NINE PERCENT OF THE ENTIRE ELECTORATE WHO VOTED took that option.

Not a mere 51.9% whose choice you have defended many times on this thread.

The will of the "people" you are so proud of defending in the recent referendum doesn't count when the will of the people goes against something you have so vehemently argued for.

Yet another example of your complete and utter callous disregard to other peoples viewpoint and your complete and utter disregard for democracy that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas.

As I said no surprise at all, still we all have to live to the Brexit vote.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:54 AM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Well Raggy, I too didn't really expect any other response from you as you don't seem to understand the difference between voting in a General Election and voting in a Referendum - tell me Raggy, have you always had this penchant for insisting on comparing apples to oranges?

Those elected to the Parliament of Westminster from Irish constituencies who refused to take their seats in 1918 did what they felt was right for their cause, i.e. sanction the murder of policemen and anyone else wearing a uniform bearing a crown, they were fully intent on having a war but they did not put that to the voters. The newly elected members from the rest of the United Kingdom sat in session and debated and passed the Government of Ireland Bill 1920 into law. This granted Home Rule to both the Southern Irish counties and to the Northern Irish six counties. The Republicans in the South had their "War of Independence" which was fought to a stalemate which first resulted in a truce being declared in July 1921 and peace talks that led to the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed on the 6th December 1921. The fact that the 1920 Government of Ireland Act had brought about the creation of a duly constituted Parliament in Ulster passed over the heads of the "Republicans" at about 40,000ft, but having been created it gave the Ulster Parliament a say in what was to happen next when all 32 counties of Ireland were granted independence. One of the clauses in the Anglo-Irish Treaty granted Ulster the right to opt out of becoming part of what was known as the Irish Free State. All of the above was brought about by people following what they saw as being Parliamentary procedure resulting from the process of voting in elections - not a single referendum vote involved, so where and what is your point of comparison between the regional results of a General Election in 1918 (A vote to decide who represents you in Parliament) and a National Referendum vote in 2016 (Where the electorate of the whole country is asked one specific question)?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

"but they did not put that to the voters."
No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote
Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?
Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?
Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?
Was the murderous crew who introduced the gun back into Irealnd and allowed to set up a persecutiong State put to the vote?
Don't be stupid
Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue.
Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?
Suppose not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster.

Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland.

A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%.

Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."

In 1918 the country of 32 counties of Ireland vote for a Irish National Assembly by a far greater majority than 51.9% to 48.1%

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

"you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims "

One assumes the establishment shill. Brexiteer and serial liar our Prime Minister made Foreign Secretary will be involved at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM

Ah more twaddle from Jom:

Jim Carroll - 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

1: So as "No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote" then you can have no objection whatsoever that "the murderous crew" took advantage of the lawful political process to hold elections and form their own Parliament under the 1920 Government of Ireland Act - at least Jom they were a damned sight more honest and open about what they were doing than their "Republican" counterparts in the South.

2: "Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?

No why would they? Sinn Fein openly condoned the murder of RIC Officers and did absolutely nothing to uphold law and order in the country - remember they actually wanted a war - that was the part of their plan that they did not let those who voted for them in on. How many lives did that cost again Jom? Then of course because they had ballsed up right royally and completely failed to get their "united Ireland" they then threw the toys out of the pram and insisted on having a Civil War that killed a few thousand more Irish men women and children. All of this in the immediate aftermath of the greatest bloodbath in history.

3: "Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?

Yes they were actually, the vote of those sitting on the Court-Martial Panel. The executions were neither illegal or unconstitutional. Those who plan and attempt an armed insurrection and collude with the enemy in time of war, who declare themselves as representing a nation without mandate who form alliances with the enemy and parade in uniform and declare themselves to be a National Army raised to fight the armed forces of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, cannot in all conscience demand to be treated as civilians subject to criminal prosecution and due process once their rebellion has failed with the country under Martial law.

4: "Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?"

Yes it was - "The 1921 general election was explicitly fought on the issue of partition, being in effect a referendum on approval of the concept of a Northern Ireland administration."

The sad and unfortunate fact that body bags are still being filled Jom stems from the "mythology of 1916" which you so openly applaud and celebrate that gives oxygen to the mistaken belief that the gun has pride of place in Irish Republican/Nationalist politics. The GFA, the subsequent referendum and the watershed changes made to the Republic of Ireland's Constitution have robbed all such idiots who support the "men of the gun" of any legitimacy or claim to any mandate from the people of Ireland.

5: "Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue."

Well formally and technically it was "granted independence" that was what all that palaver related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty was all about:

"The Irish Free State as contemplated by the treaty came into existence when its constitution became law on 6 December 1922 by a royal proclamation giving the force of law to the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922."

The Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 was an Act of Parliament passed by the Westminster Parliament Jom, I didn't make it up it exists and represents historical fact irrespective of whether you chose to believe it or not. How much of a complete and utter idiot you wish to make of yourself is of no interest or importance to me.

6: "Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?

Why should I? Do I have to? My statement after all was - "Greater equality nowadays than ever before." - care to explain to us all why equality means wealth to you my little scouse Anglophobe? What about the wealth gap in the USA? China? The Republic of Ireland? Or anywhere else for that matter. If you wish to discuss equality then do so, wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM

YOU can assume what you like about the future Stu, just please do not present it as though it were already an established fact David Davies has been given the job of overseeing our departure from the EU, as far as I am aware he has not decided on anything as yet.

You are jumping fences before you come to them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM

Raggytash - 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

"Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster."

Anything in their manifesto about fomenting a war?

Anything in their manifesto about basically declaring open season on the RIC?

"Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland."

And that Raggy is what they got and what they would have got had those elected had taken their seats in Westminster under the Government of Ireland Act 1920. The Ireland that was given its independence in 1922 under an Act of Parliament consisted of all 32 counties, within 24 hours the Ulster Parliament exercised its right to remain part of the UK. Now if it was OK for Griffiths to decide on Independence then it was equally OK for Craig to exercise his right to remain as that is what his electors wanted.

"A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%."

Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won. Sinn Fein won only 46.9% of the votes cast nation wide. The Party that came second to them was the Unionist Party. The 51.9% and 48.1% do accurately reflect the individual votes of the electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland there were no separate referenda in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England - just the one covering the entire country. The result was that the electorate chose to leave the EU.

"Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."

And I still stand by that as a mere statement of fact. No separate referenda held so as with most things Jim Carroll concludes what he said was inaccurate, misrepresentative and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"...wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality."

Christ on a bike. Whst bloody planet are you on? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

" Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won."

Er No Teribus, I earlier posted (which you have chosen to ignore)

"BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence"

With regard to the recent referendum you have told us in no uncertain terms that those who voted Remain i.e the minority will have to live with it or have to deal with it, get used to it.

Unsurprisingly you are not giving that same response to a vote you disagree with. Now what was it you said to Steve Shaw, something about sauce for the goose and the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

"You are jumping fences before you come to them."

So... you think the Foreign Secretary will have nothing to do with Brexit? Won't be off trying to secure deals abroad?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM

Raggy the election and votes cast in Ireland in 1918 related to a General Election.

The votes cast on the 23rd June 2016 in the UK were related to a Referendum.

Hate to burst that little bubble you've rather disingenuously constructed but the two are not the same thing at all and well you know it.

Question: As a result of their vote in 1918 was a separate Parliament set up in Dublin? If the answer to that question is Yes, then the electorate got what they wanted.

The fact that this separate assembly was set up unilaterally by the nationalists and was not recognised by the Westminster Parliament was all part of Sinn Fein's plan they fully realised that that would be the case - Setting up a separate Parliament was not their goal their goal was independence by force of arms. They got their war of independence and they negotiated a settlement that some of their number were unhappy about so they then went and had a Civil War that killed thousands and caused immense damage to their fledgling nation.

When Sinn Fein set up their Parliament, the Unionists up in Ulster set up theirs, the Civil War in the South instigated by Eamon de Valera showed everybody that the Republicans in Ireland would not accept any democratic decision that did not accord with their wishes, that put the cap on it as far as the Unionists were concerned and ensured that Ireland would be partitioned.

That is what all those people voted for in 1918 Raggy.

The electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland were asked one simple question on the 23rd June 2016 related to whether or not we should remain in the EU or leave it - the electorate chose the latter.

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin Éamon de Valera 476,087
Irish Unionist Edward Carson 257,314
Irish Parliamentary John Dillon 220,837
Labour Unionist None 30,304

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:49 AM

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin - 476,087
Irish Unionist - 257,314
Irish Parliamentary - 220,837
Labour Unionist - 30,304
Independent Nationalist — 8,183
Independent Labour — 659
Independent — 436

Total number of votes cast = 1,015,515

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics. Even John Kerry who rarely cracks a smile seemed to take to the man, I'm certain he will have the same effect on Mr Putin or any of the other world leaders he is obliged to deal with.

In regard to Scotland, the two main reasons that a majority voted to remain, were that the full effects of unregulated immigration have not been felt this side of the border.....AND more importantly, the SNP spent a large amount of money and effort trying to persuade their supporters to vote remain. I was bombarded by e mails and pamphlets for weeks, I received no propaganda from the leave side. If this seems idiotic from a party who's raison d'etre is for Scotland to become an INDEPENDENT nation, then as a supporter of Independence, I would have to agree with you.

The SNP wrongly used EU membership as a plank of their campaign in the Independence referendum and were stuck with the consequences...they are now deeply in the shit, and it will not be possible to construct a new political platform for many years.
A big mistake from the two little fishes!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:26 AM

he is likeable despite his politics.

According to you, Ake, so's your hero The Trumpshit.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics"

Ake loves an establishment old Bullingdon liar because he's a bit fumbly, bumbly and funny. No surprise there, given he loves another xenophobic ex-city broker with deeply questionable morals.

You gotta be a Trump fan Ake, he's your type of socialist!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:58 AM

I admire people of most political persuasions, I do not allow my views to blind me to their attributes.
The promotion of Boris to Foreign Secretary was a bit of a masterstroke from Mrs May.....on the other hand her jeering at Mr Corbyn while avoiding the question that he asked looked pathetic and beneath someone in the office of Prime Minister. The way that the phrase "Remind you of anyone" was delivered....with a vindictive leer, was disgraceful.
The problems afflicting the Labour Party did not begin with Mr Corbyn, but many years before when Labour was very electable indeed.

If we want a truly alternative opposition to the Conservative Party, then we must be aware that it will take at least a decade to set up.

Anything else, Liberal, Labour(Blairite) UKIP etc is not an alternative at all but an extension of the Capitalist System.

If we are all dedicated to the continuation of this system with its associated minority rights and other idiocies promoted by the media in place of governance based on what we can contribute to the common good allied to personal responsibility, then without doubt the Conservative Party will be the most efficient and the best bet in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM

" he's your type of socialist..." I nominate this for Quip Of The Week! Nice one, Stu! 😆

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

I do not believe that boris Mr Farage, or Mr Trump, would make any pretence of being socialists......they are no more true socialist than Stu or Steve.   :0)

I know many people even on this forum with whom is disagree strongly on some political matters yet admire their conduct in debate.

I think you need to get your ideology into perspective and read a little political theory.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:39 AM

I abandoned political ideology a long time ago, look what happens when it replaces facts and ideas: Brexit/Trump/Farage and a slew of other idiots on all sides of the political spectrum... I'm not sure about Corbyn yet but he seems constrained by his own political ideologies.

No-one cases about truth, fact or evidence anymore. Politicians lie through their teeth to win campaigns and everyone just shrugs and they're made Foreign Secretary. Personal integrity has become meaningless, our political system beyond satire and the people kicking out to make a point regardless of whether it harms them or their children.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Either way Teribus let us not be sidetracked by arguing specific numbers

Even if we use the figures you acquired (and neither of us can be definitive at this stage)it STILL equates to less than 30% voting for a Union.

By anyone's reckoning that means that OVER 70% voted for a Independent Ireland.

Now you being the great believer in Democracy that you would have us believe that you are (my ar.......m)70% of the total voting population voted in a way you as an individual cannot cope with.

You will find any way at all possible in order to try and "justify" your little Englander and Empire stance.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally.

I also find the SNP take on membership of the EU rather strange if what they want is independence. Of course the SNP never in their wildest dreams thought that the EU Referendum would return a Leave vote, they pushed for Remain to provide an excuse should there be a "Leave" result to claim their criteria of there being a "significant change", never expecting it to happen and now that it has they find themselves in a bit of a pickle - the last thing in the world that the SNP want in the near to medium future is a second independence referendum because they know full well that they would lose it. Not a single point that they faltered on in the last referendum has been resolved and all the posturing in the world by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP alters the fact that Scotland's greatest trading partner is the rest of the UK. Of course oil that was going to pay for everything according to the SNP is still languishing at $47 per barrel (To make good on SNP promises it has to be upwards of double that).

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:04 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."

The only people you appear to respect here are Keith, bobad and akenaton. You never show the slightest sign of respecting anyone with mildly differing points of view, let alone wildly differing ones. So you're a fine one to talk, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."


Stu's list of rational quotes from Teribus, Thursday edition:

"THE F**KER WHO FEEDS THEM - YOU HALFWIT PRAT."

"Only to a wanker like you Shaw."

"Oh and please, please, please let just one of you clowns chirp up... as I will paint the room with you.

etc etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:07 PM

This has been commented on before Stu and I applaud your contribution I do hope you will keep it up day by day, it's quite amusing.

Teribus seems to consider abuse utterly out of order when directed at himself, Keith, Ake or Bobad and has been very vocal about it to the extent of complaining to the Moderators I believe.

Yet he feels it is quite in order to abuse other people, namely Jim Steve, yourself and I often and at length.

Because of complaints some valuable contributors, reasoned, knowledgeable and humorous no longer contribute yet he insist that there is a clique trying to get rid of one insignificant individual.

As Steve, I and other try to tell him, no such clique exists nor has it ever done.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

He'll be here any minute telling us that he speaks as he finds, the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!

And those are his good qualities.........

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:40 PM

Well there certainly a clique trying to "get rid" of me for a number of years and Keith has been targeted consistently for the last couple of years.
In my case the people took it upon themselves to report me and the forum to the police, made up complete untruths regarding a criminal record and PROVEN charges concerning cruelty to animals in my care.
I was also stalked in my home village by these idiots, who did not realise that almost everyone here is a personal friend of mine.

They moved away some time ago, but while they were here they were supported by Steve and Jim amongst others.
I have most of the abuse and the support on file.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

I would add that the probable reason that Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms :0)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:04 PM

Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me.......

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:50 PM

Come on Greg, it's serious stuff and a criminal offence in this country. Especially printing libel.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 PM

I quite agree akenaton, libel should be dealt with promptly.

An approach to the small claims court might be a way forward if you are confident. The fact that this has been rolling for some time only adds to the suspicion that claims may have some substance.

I know not ..........either way.

If you recall I did say some considerable time ago that these allegations were out of order.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

Excuse me. Kindly do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise. Your remarks in this regard are slanderous, frankly. Yes it is serious stuff and it's about time you took it seriously instead of lashing out carelessly at people who are entirely innocent of the charges you make. I strongly advise you not to do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:34 AM

"Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms"
Teribus is a mindless troll who sneers and hurls abuse at anybody who disagrees with him
He offers no facts to any of his claims and refuses to link real information to any of his statements.
He is living proof to the saying, scratch a bully and you uncover a coward.
It's about time that people who abuse to the level he now does are warned off or stopped altogether - bring back the Mods
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM

Yes Raggytash, and I sincerely thank you for that.

All water under the bridge now as far as I am concerned, but it illustrates how a lynch-mob mentality can be formed.
When that is allowed to happen all meaningful debate is impossible.
Fortunately this forum is still a debating platform thanks in no small measure to Mr Offer.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM

I don't think Terbius is a mindless troll at all, but he can be bloody rude. I like debating with him, and have a fair degree of respect for him; it'd be good to talk over a pint. I also think he knows which buttons to push to wind up the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve Shaw - 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

"do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise"

Then maybe you should have done. Remaining silent is no defence, there is such a thing as tacit approval. These denials and protestations of "innocence" of yours Shaw. Learn all that as a "Union Activist" - very good at making the bullets, but never get caught actually firing them, you leave that to the foot-soldiers.

I jumped into this a couple of years ago in an attempt to stop the constant "mobbing" of specific individuals by a certain group on this forum and yes Shaw you were one of those doing the "mobbing".

Akenaton is perfectly correct and he "slanders" no-one. The vilification he and others have had to put up with has been a disgrace. The scatter-gun approach and tactic of throwing out baseless accusations and allegations and proudly proclaiming that there is no need or intention of substantiating any of them was despicable, as were the tactics used to get threads closed down where you and your "friends" thought you were "losing" the argument and your arguments were being exposed as weak and indefensible.

There is nothing more cowardly than what you and your "friends" have done over the past couple of years on this forum, and you and your "friends" have rightly been pulled up on it openly on threads and according to various posts warned privately by PM.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM

Thank you for that Stu, much appreciated.