 sj |
||
|
||
BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM "Sorry, but I just don't understand what's so bad about Keith." My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms - it is little short of cyber-bullying, it's unpleasant and it fouls up otherwise interesting, if occasionally fractious genuine exchanges of opinion. You were the one who called for an end to childish name-calling - we've made an effort - this clown continues to strut and bluster. There is nothing wrong with passionate argument - bring it on, it peppers up a discussion, but abusive insulting goes far beyond that - it's like being back in the schoolyard at playtime - the Easter Rising was a prime example. I think most of us have the measure of what Ake and Keith stand for and are well able to deal with it (except when Keith attempts to block aspects of discussion that don't suit, as he regularly does) - but that can be dealt with too without recourse to intervention. If it is the job of overseers to keep all us kids in line, that has to mean all of us - it only takes one spoiled brat to feck it up for the rest of us. Sorry for involving you, didn't really know where to turn short of going to teh headmaster, but this is open and deliberate nastiness is getting beyond a joke. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM Dick The Serbo Croation conflict happened long before those countries became members of the E.U., Cyprus is at peace (sort of) - border disputes are not warfare. Turkey is an interesting point - its membership has been blocked until it cleans up its human rights - a case for Europe rather than against it. In the present situation Europe has to be regarded as a stop-gap rather than a permanent solution - I wouldn't trust any of the bastards inside or outside of the Union. Would you seriously consider destabalising the security of Irish kids working abroad if Ireland's membership was under consideration? In the case of Putin and Trump - in or out doesn't make the slightest difference either way, in or out, so why not take what's on offer anyway? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM "My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms" Ah Jom perhaps you could explain to everyone why it would appear in your eyes perfectly acceptable on this forum for you to be allowed to call someone a "loutish boor" and to fling insults about right, left and centre, then promptly demand that name calling should be stopped. As I said previously you are very good at dishing it out but not very good at taking it. I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot and have pointed out on numerous occasions the reasons why I think so. I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM "I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me." Nobody other than you consistently talks down to people in the sneary way that you do "Ah Jom ". My "loutsh boor" was a direct reference to your behaviour in an attempt to stop it, which, it is obvious you have no intention of doing "I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot" You really have no control of your behaviour - do you As far as I am concerned your out-of-control arrogance is a deliberate attempt to wreck threads. You have made my point perfectly - thanks for that at least! Your behaviour has no place on a public forum - not my decision, of course. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:40 AM "Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that - today we have a chance to get out of a system that is clearly ruining Europe economically and one that you see as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and totally lacking in transparent" No we aren"t. Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU. Both systems need reform, and can be reformed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM right or wrong, win or lose... the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign as I've seen it, is the culture of arrogance and condescension amongst the LEAVE leadership.....????? 😣 Cameron may be an old etonian tory toff.. but at least he displays a reasonable degree of humility and humane likability..... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:54 AM Not true in any respect, Schweik, I am afraid to say. Serbia nor Croatia are members of the EU. As for Cyprus, there is no "war". The island is partitioned between the Cypriot Republic, which is a member of EU, and a statelet in North Cyprus which is not, and which is not recognised by anyone, except Turkey, which is of course not in the EU. The very fact that Turkey recognises North Cyprus is a guarantee that, so long as that is the case, it will not be given EU membership, even if all the other conditions it would have to satisfy were met - which is a very long way from happening. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM After watching the lunchtime news.. how's the overnight flooding in London & South East likely to affect polling, and announcement of a result...??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM I think quite a lot of the stuff you talk about there, Joe, would be illegal here. So long as any of the polling stations are open, it's against the law for anyone to report on exit polls or what any local counts might show. Your situation where candidates might concede in the light of what's happened in the East before people in California or Hawaii have voted would be quite impossible. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:21 AM "the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign...." Almost Pfr Win or lose, this campaign will be remembered for the murder of a gentle, dedicated and moderate politician and the rising tide of xenophobic hatred generated by those who wish to leave. I've just been somewhat gobsmacked to learn that this is only the third nation-wide referendum ever to be held in British history - whatever happened to "by the people"? They're as regular as the dawn chorus here. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM "...by the people" was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln, you will remember. Referenda have only very recently been used here in UK. Previously they were not part of our system: the govt claimed a mandate from their parliamentary majority; and in extreme cases, if defeated in a vote in parliament as with R MacDonald in the 30s, would settle controversies by resigning & "going to the people", ie calling an election. Referenda, aka plebiscites, were traditionally mistrusted as the means by which such continental rulers as Louis-Philippe, Bismarck, et al, would purport to have mandates, which were never regarded here as very trustworthy. ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM Let us know when you've voted, y'all! Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Stanron Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:47 AM I voted several hours ago. A lady behind the desk said they had had a good turn out. A lot better than the local council elections a month or so ago. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM My mum is the same age as MGM·Lion [a month older actually].. She prides herself on never having missed an election, except for the recent Police and Crime Commissioner Elections, as she was quite ill with bronchitis & confusion since January. I'm about to catch a train to spend the afternoon with her. The plan being if the weather is not too bad, we'll try and walk the 1/4 mile or so to the polling station. She lives in an extremely conservative part of SW England, so knows her vote has been futile for most of her life, But she believes voting to be her privilege and duty... Mum jokes about the tories dragging their elder voters from their death beds on polling days.. Must remember her reading glasses so she doesn't put her "X" in the wrong box.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: DMcG Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM A moment of light-heartedness: I read an account of some of the polling stations being closed because of flooding. And then, a few paragraphs later and apparently by accident, they said the result would depend upon the floating voters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:21 AM "was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln," I do know that Mike - I thought it applied to Britain in principle too - maybe not!! I have no doubt whatever referenda were mistrusted by them upstairs - wonder what would happen in Britain if the held a referendum on whether to make them part of the system!!! They managed to to put Ireland somewhere into the latter half of the 20th century, regarding homosexuality a couple of years ago - some way to go yet and who knows, maybe we will live long enough to see one make a difference regarding pregnancy termination (one the bulldog-grip of the church is loosened, of course). If they are untrustworthy, why is H.M.G. holding one on such an important issue today, one wonders! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it. In practice I believe the practice is to accept a tick as an indication you are in favour. But I wouldn't chance it, because officially it's against the rules. At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:56 AM "At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads..." ????? Chads used to be a famous speedway team in Liverpool when I was very young - sure you don't mean 'chavs'? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM "Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU. Both systems need reform, and can be reformed." If that is the case then it will be quicker and easier to fix our system on our own away from meddling from 27 other opinions and suggestions as to what needs doing and the best way of doing it. Like their barmy idea with the Euro - one size most certainly does not fit all - even the German Banker who came up with the idea stated quite clearly that the single currency HAD TO BE PRECEDED by full political union otherwise it would not work - he was right the Eurozone is in dire trouble. Another reason for voting leave if you actually believe what you write in your posts to this forum. The UK system CAN be fixed by political action, the entire system is elected - for political action to do the same in the EU there has to be massive simultaneous conversion in 28 countries to get the European Council thinking along the same lines. That has to coincide with the end of a Commission so the right candidates are put forward and the right President of the Commission is chosen. Timings and reality mean that it will never happen. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:24 AM I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significaant aspects the latter is the case. Any way there's no point in arguing about this kind of stuff at this point. My essential point is that the "reforms" Cameron has been unable to get just were totally irrelevant to what is actually needed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:04 PM "I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significant aspects the latter is the case." I am very surprised that you are so completely unaware of the limitation of power of the European Parliament. You speak as though they can alter how the EU is run - simply put they cannot as they have little say in how it is run: "Neither the Parliament nor the Council have the power of legislative initiative. In Community matters, this is a power uniquely reserved for the European Commission (the executive). Therefore, while Parliament can amend and reject legislation, to make a proposal for legislation, it needs the Commission to draft a bill before anything can become law Exactly the opposite is how the Westminster Parliament is run with Bills being introduced by elected members of the Commons, or very occasionally by sitting Lords, then after having been debated and discussed through three cycles in both Commons and Lords the Bill is then passed to the Civil Service to be codified, formally drawn up and sent to receive Royal Assent where upon it becomes law. Are the EU Commission's 28 members "elected" MEPs - NO THEY ARE NOT - All 28 are nominees put forward by their respective Governments (The last two put forward by the UK have never been elected to any political office in their lives) The Parliament gets to elect the President of the Commission from a list given them by the European Council (If that list has only one candidate then there is no choice at all) The European Parliament cannot object to or refuse any single candidate nominated and put forward by his/her Government, they can only vote on the Commission as a body - again no real power, they are there to rubber stamp the proceedings, nothing more. Any reform has to be agreed by all Governments who then somehow have to convince the Commission, whose sworn task it is to look towards what is beneficial to the Community (i.e. Themselves), to introduce the reform Bill, the MEPs only get to look at it after it has been written. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: The Sandman Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM it will soon be over my prediction is 54 percent for remain |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM There's a piece that played on National Public Radio in the US titled Britain's 'Brexit' Vote Has Echoes Of The U.S. Presidential Race. An excerpt:
"I'd put them in the same box," said Elizabeth Evans, a county councilor with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, chatting on the street one afternoon in Aberystwyth, a small city on the Welsh coast. Evans says Farage, like Trump, is a charismatic populist who has tapped into public frustration. I get the impression from discussion here that it's not only the UKIP that is promoting "Brexit." I've heard all the arguments, but it's hard to tell from here who's supporting "Brexit," and who's supporting "Bremain." I was born in 1948, and I can remember a time when people in the U.S. thought that periodic wars in Europe were inevitable. I lived in Berlin in 1972-73 - I guess you could say I was surrounded by the Iron Curtain for two years, but I did get a chance to leave Berlin 20 times in the 20 months I was there, and I saw a lot of Europe. My feeling at the time was that periodic European war was still inevitable. I didn't return to Europe until I retired in 1999, and I've visited Europe a couple of weeks or more every year since then. As the EU came to be, I've seen a lot of improvements, especially in the poorer countries. Wealthier EU nations may resent the money being spent in Ireland and Spain and Greece and other nations; but as an outsider, I can see how much it adds to the stability and security of Europe. I've also been amazed at how easy it is for Europeans to work in multiple countries. As a traveler, I've found the Euro very helpful, and I've found it annoying that I can't use Euros in the UK. And through the years, it has seemed to me that the EU has taken wiser stands on international issues than the U.S. has. In many ways, the EU is an ideal that is far from being completely fulfilled - but while the EU exists, the dream can still exist. I don't know that the withdrawal of the UK will mean the end of the EU, but it's certainly a deadly blow. So, I can see many shortcomings of the EU, and I understand the frustration with the bureaucracy and immigration and all; but I'd hate to see the EU collapse. I'm much rather see the UK put its energy into fixing what's wrong with the EU. I'm sure it's true that as a foreigner, I have an idealized view of the EU, but maybe it's not a bad idea to dream of ideals and work to achieve them. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM A European Commissioner is a member of the 28-member European Commission. Each Member within the Commission holds a specific portfolio, and the Commission is led by thePresident of the European Commission. In simple terms they are the equivalent of national ministers Each Commissioner is first nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President, although the President holds little practical power to force a change in candidate. . The more capable the candidate is, the more likely the Commission President will assign them a powerful portfolio, the distribution of which is entirely at his discretion. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament which will question them and then vote on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down. As Parliament cannot vote against individual Commissioners there is usually a compromise whereby the worst candidates are removed but minor objections are put aside so the Commission can take office. Once the team is approved by parliament, it is formally put into office by the European Council. It should be noted however that although Members of the Commission are allocated between member-states they do not represent their states; instead they are supposed to act in European interests. Normally a member-state will nominate someone of the same political party as that which forms the government of the day. There are exceptions such as Member of the Commission Burke (of Fine Gael) was nominated by Taoiseach Haughey (of Fianna Fáil), or where larger states had two seats, they often went to the two major parties such as in the United Kingdom. In addition to its role in approving a new Commission, the European Parliament has the power at any time to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. This requires a vote that makes up at least two-thirds of those voting and a majority of the total membership of the Parliament. While it has never used this power, it threatened to use it against the Commission headed by Jacques Santer in 1999 over allegations of corruption. In response, the Santer Commission resigneden masse of its own accord, the only time a Commission has done so. ....... European Parliament president Jerzy Buzek proposed in 2010 that Commissioners be directly elected, by member states placing their candidate at the top of their voting lists in European elections. That would give them individually, and the body as a whole, a democratic mandate.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner The European commission is little different than the manner in which the British Parliamentary system is structured; the commissioners are appointed by the member state just as the cabinet is appointed by the Prime Minister. The main difference is that the Commission is answerable to the Union as a whole so they cannot impose any particular political party agenda. Academic anyway, Teribus's 'Brave New World' would have us all answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition) , even above the interests of the individuals. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM The MEPs has to approve the candidate for President nominated by the European Council made up of heads of government. It could refuse to approve them. That is a significant power, if exercised in an effective power. Initiating legislation is by no means the only significant way of exerting power. After all, very little of the legislation in the House of Commons is actually initiated by the members as a whole - it is handed down by the government, and processed through parliament by it's agents. The power to approve and reject legislation is a very significant power. The thing is, if the vote is Out, this isn't anything to do with us. If it is Remain, it becomes significant. There'll be problems ahead. But making the system we've got here even as much as it is didn't come easy. Often enough what matters isn't the formal structure, it's how it gets used. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe? It's expensive and complicated for European musicians to get a visa to perform in the U.S., although U.S. musicians don't seem to have that much difficulty performing in the UK and Europe. It seems like it's more difficult for U.S. musicians to perform in Canada, than it is for them to perform in Europe. That may be just a matter of perception. U.S. musicians may want to go to Canada to do a gig or two because it's so easy to travel there, but they resent having to get a work permit. It may be just as hard to get a work permit to perform in Europe, but Americans don't go to Europe for just one or two gigs. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition) .,,. Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet! ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Ed. Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:42 PM Joe says: If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe? Impossible to know. What sort of Visa requirements might be imposed by either size is an utter unknown. Those on the 'Leave' side, may claim that everything will be fine, but they're only guessing... McGrath says: I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it. I assume that it goes back to the time when an 'X' was used by the illiterate to show assent to a written document. Whether that predates it's use for an answer being wrong, I know not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM I don't see why there should be any difference so far as the US and the EU are concerned. The US and all EU members will still have precisely the same status relative to each other, whatever that is. If Britain ceases to be a EU member that would no longer be the case. Some new arrangement would need to be worked out. And the same would go for UK citizens in the US. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Ed. Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM Or possibly: 'X marks the spot' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:48 PM You had already posted that screed a couple of hours ago, Jim. Is your memory playing trick - or your WP?
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM I don't know why, but all my life, it has been difficult for me to make a tick mark and fit it into a box. I can mark a box with an "x" very easily, but tick marks confound me. I don't know if it's left-handedness or a basic lack of coordination - I plead guilty to both. I can type and I can print, but I have difficulty with cursive writing. Maybe there's a tie to my tick mark disability. Occasionally, I have had papers and ballots and questionnaires returned to me for correction because I used "x" instead of tick marks. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: punkfolkrocker Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:23 PM If LEAVE win.. where will the first concentration camps be situated...??? .. just asking because thee's a big empty filed down the road from my mum's house that's been on the market for ages....... ...and my mum is very friendly and chatty and would be down there making tea and sandwiches for all the interned foreigners and dissidents... 🙄 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM Looks like this should be a good place to get results: |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Stanron Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:36 PM Wow. 4:32 am. 72% Turnout. 52% leave. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:39 PM Don't at all see your point, pfr [yes, I know it was meant ironically & as a joke, but even so]. There was a time, you know, tho nobody here seems to recall it, before we ever joined the unmentionable institution under consideration; during which benighted Dark Age I fail to recall any facilities wherein any alien who happened to have had the temerity to set foot on these shores might be interned or incarcerated (apart, obviously, from the emergency regulations in force during WWii). So, leaving aside considerations of sarcasm and jocularity, what was your point precisely? ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:46 AM Well, it looks like "leave" has won at 51.8%. A quote I came across: Would be a hell of a thing if this ends with a united Ireland and independent Scotland in the EU and a diminished England outside of it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:59 AM 1: The people of Northern Ireland have to want a united Ireland before there is any referendum on any change. What any political party says on the matter is irrelevant. 2: The question before the Scots remains the same as it did in 2014 when they said NO to independence. Scotland's biggest trading partner will still be England {80% of Scotland's trade}, there is no short term prospect of a massive hike in the price of oil, Scotland will have to apply for membership of the EU and they will have no interim currency but under current EU rules they would ultimately have to take on the Euro. Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:05 AM So what's your view on the fact that just 24% of registered electors put a cross next to a Tory candidate in the 2015 general election? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: akenaton Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:10 AM YES!!!! The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom. Congratulations to the Brexit voters here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Raggytash Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:58 AM YES !!!! ............ er................. NO !!!! Yesterday I got 1.30 Euro to the pound, today you can get 1.24 Euro to the pound. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:00 AM "The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom" Oh dear - the beast has risen. The racist nature of the Out campaign and the hairline gap between the yes and no vote gives cause for immediate alarm, certainly not celebration for anybody - who on earth can be happy with a Britain split right down the middle? A divided and disillusioned Germany gave birth to the Nazi Party - lets hope somebody can get that nice Mr Farrage and Boris the Braindead into their straitjackets before they can do any real damage. All we need is Trump the Trumpeter in the White House and the rightist nutters will have their 'three-of-a-kind. "Freedom"....... you read like a bad phrase from Game of Thrones' Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM Obviously that 24% was enough to win the number of Parliamentary seats required - that is our system and had it been a Labour Government returned by the same margin you would have had no problem with it. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about proportional representation is just so much "magpie chatter" another referendum in 2011 put paid to that system being introduced by two votes to one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Raggytash Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:08 AM Now down to 1.23 Euro to the pound |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: DMcG Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain Ok, let's take the bits of that one by one. a) I do accept the democratic will of the people. b) I said that I didn't think Brexiters would stop campaigning to exit the EU is we voted in, especially if the margin was narrow. I still think that would have been the case, because it doesn't need anyone else's agreement to write newspaper articles or whatever. And, as McGrath pointed out, even if we had voted in there was always the possibility of another vote in ten, or twenty or forty years. The reverse doesn't apply: no-one sees a way back into the EU except with the agreement with every other member, and that's not going to happen in any way I can imagine. b) I never said I thought Remain would win. Yet again, Teribus, you can't sort out 'would' and 'could'. I hoped it would, certainly. I thought it could, definitely. c) My other main comment was that I thought we should listen to the experts who were predicting a crash. So far, sterling has fallen to the lowest level since 1985 and there was a drop in the FSTE of over £100bn dollars in minutes. Ok, it may bounce back over the next few days, or it may not. Only time will tell on that one. d) Irrespective of all that, we have an obligation to make the best of where we are now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: DMcG Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:22 AM Apologies for "£100billion dollars". I didn't mean to mix currencies like that. Perhaps I should just paste this from the Telegraph: £137bn wiped off UK stocks within minutes The FTSE 100 is now down 8.3pc, meaning £137bn has been wiped off UK blue chip stocks within minutes of markets opening this morning. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MikeL2 Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM Hi <" YES!!!! The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom. Congratulations to the Brexit voters here."> I don't often agree with Ake's views but today I do. The people have spoken and perhaps all parties will note the strength of feeling especially in the North West. Cameron's gone and Our MP Osborne has been conspicuous by his absence since his wild threats. Don't expect quick change and there will be bumps on the way. Cheers Mikel2 a |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Teribus Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM " I never said I thought Remain would win." Doesn't wash DMcG you commented on Leave voters accepting a decision to Remain - under such circumstances which side has won the referendum? My powers of deduction tend towards a win for Remain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: MikeL2 Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM Hi Just got 126.4 Euros to pound. Had to shop around a bit. Cheers MikeL2 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM "Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet! " One ogf the great myths Mike. Socialism is based on using the state to abolish ("wither away") the state - read Lenin's State and Revolution (a pamphlet on the basic tenets of Socialism in regard to the state). The difference between Socialism proper and Syndicalism is that the former sees the state as temporary while that latter (impractically in my view) wished to abolish the state from the start. Fascism it a world where all are subservient to a permanent state - Teribus's arguments being a fine example. The abandonment of those tenets led to the Stalins andd Ceaușescus, just as the abandonment of the principals of democracy have led to the inequalities and injustices of Capitalism You are a one for clichés, aren't you? Jim Carroll |
