Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM

It seems there's a distinct difference between the work of Ewan
MacColl and, for example, a Barry Manilow.

I think one could, in fact, argue that Barry Manilow's life outside
of his work is nobody's business but his own and doesn't bear scrutiny
in the public forum.

It seems to me, however, that MacColl's work was, by definition,
more of an extension of his life and therefore his character than
that of your average 'pop star.' Indeed one quite had the impression
that much of his work was in the way of telling people how to live,
governments how to govern, and so on.

When one puts oneself in such a position, telling people how to live
and governments how to govern, etc., one opens oneself up for
scrutiny as to how one lives and governs oneself.

And that's what is happening here.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:57 PM

When I question the "movement" aspect of folk music, it isn't that I doubt that there was one--what I really have a problem with is that the "movement" was a bit too organized--

The Communists used folk music--"The People's Music" --to lay the foundations for "The People's Revolution" And it was not left to chance--they did it systematically--MacColl's heavy handed management of the "folk movement" in the UK bears a close resemblance to the controls exerted by Lomax in the US, and seems very much like the sort management that the communists excercised in other areas. And, contrary to comments above, the Party regularly purged individuals who did not support the party line--

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:45 PM

After 61 years on this narrow-minded planet I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm still jarred by someone wishing to erase someone else from music history because of something non-musical that he did. It's not that I don't have a conscience, bubba, it's that Ewan McColl evidently DID. Not that it's the least damn bit material, but I served my time in the armed forces, combat zone and all, but I have no problem with anybody who felt he had a better idea on how to spend his life. Frankly I didn't know McColl was a deserter, but now that you have informed me of this fact, Sir Guest Bob, arbiter of all our actions, I will go out and buy all the Ewan McColl records, tapes, CDs and artifacts I can afford. So there, Mr. I don't like your political beliefs so I'm not going to listen to your music. PS. Do you have anything to show for yourself??

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:58 PM

No it was just a movement - happens in art.

surrealists, cubists, impressionist, pre-raphaelites....

the folk club movement was bloody terrific in the early days. such profusion of music....a mass movement. Barrie Roberts told me when he opened his first folk club in Walsall, they were queueing round the block outside the pub from 6 o'clock.

thats the power of desire for something different from the crap pouring out of the TV that the factionalists managed to stifle.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:23 PM

It was a fine thing, no doubt about it, WLD--and it was like that here, too--a phenomenon of a sort that was more transitory than was imagined at the time--and the bubble burst, leaving the factionalists(as servicable name for them as I've heard) to fight over the remains.

I have an interested in the factionalists, however, as they pre-existed the phenomenon, and were threads that ran through the confluence--as to your list, with the exception of surrealism, I'd say they are more schools, rather than movements--though this is a moot point for a lazy day--

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:37 AM

I think when you read say the letters of Kandinsky when he was part of all that movement away from naturalistic and representative art. Or the memoirs of Stephen Spender and Isherwood - when they were part of the 1920/30's literary scene.

There is that same kind of buzz. that's what it must have felt like to be MacColl in 1958, or Bert Jansch in 1965. Part of a climate of creativity.

I suppose that's the things with climates - they do bloody change. As Paul Simon says -" you can't be forever blessed....."

I just think of the people who were emerging when I was young, in some ways it was intimidating - you felt your own talent could never match Renbourn, Jansch, McTell, Wizz........does it matter that that sort of player won't be around for ever, that there won't be anybody trying for that same synthesis of complex guitar style and lyric. I think it does.

I do think, WE (the generation just after the explosion)let it go off the boil...

Furthermore, I feel myself and my contemporaries to be distant cousins of what was happening in those years - part of the same movement - duller stars in the firmament. And I think that's pretty much how history will write it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:28 AM

Whatever the apparent magnitude of your star--remember that the constellations are made of many stars-

Metaphors aside, the crowd always moves on to the next big thing--The same sort of crowds that flocked to Dylan and Jansch, moved on, successively, to the Beegees(their disco music), The Sex Pistols, Genesis, the Smiths, The Pet Shop Boys, The Cure, Belle and Sebastian--etc--the folk factions shored up whatever they had left after the deluge, and carried on.

The advantage that painters and, to a lesser degree, writers, have is that they can work alone.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

Sorry about re-opening this - I really think all that is to be said on it has been and nobody is going to change their minds at this stage.
However, I feel I need to apologise for something I wrongly assumed.
Earlier in the thread I wrote that I had received a message from the editor of Dance and Song regarding MacColl's war record. I assumed that this was a genaeral posting and that I was one of many recipients.
I am assured by the editor, Derek Schofield that this was not the case and, knowing my interest in MacColl, he had sent it to me alone in case it had not reached the West of Ireland. He was not writing as editor of Dance and Song, but as somebody with a mutual interest in Traditional song.
Sorry Derek, Dance and Song and EFDSS.
You may put my knee-jerk reaction down to a tendency I have nowadays to over-react when I become aware of what I believe to be unfair criticism of MacColl to the detriment of the valuable work he did.
On the other hand, you are also welcome to consider it a result of my advancing years having turned me into a knouty old git.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:17 PM

Ewan MacColl or Jimmy Smith - Requiescant In Pace - you've
done wonderful things in this mortal world of ours.
Coward or traitor? I don't think any of us has the knowledge to totally condemn you , and ,I would much prefer that people walked away from om a fight they couldn't win, and went one to live a full and useful life.
Let's got off his back.

Cheers
Betsy