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BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....

GUEST,Guest 25 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,strad 25 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM
Amos 25 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 12:24 PM
Amos 25 Feb 08 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 25 Feb 08 - 01:58 PM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 08 - 02:06 PM
Amos 25 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM
kendall 25 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM
Peace 25 Feb 08 - 03:24 PM
Amos 25 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM
Bill D 25 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Guest 25 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Feb 08 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,Guest 25 Feb 08 - 08:53 PM
fumblefingers 25 Feb 08 - 09:00 PM
Don Firth 25 Feb 08 - 09:11 PM
Ron Davies 25 Feb 08 - 11:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM
irishenglish 26 Feb 08 - 12:50 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 08 - 01:15 PM
irishenglish 26 Feb 08 - 01:24 PM
Amos 26 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM
irishenglish 26 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM
irishenglish 26 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM
beardedbruce 26 Feb 08 - 01:48 PM
DougR 26 Feb 08 - 08:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM
Riginslinger 26 Feb 08 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Guest 26 Feb 08 - 10:17 PM
Amos 26 Feb 08 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,Guest 27 Feb 08 - 08:37 AM
kendall 27 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Guest 27 Feb 08 - 09:09 AM
Amos 27 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM
Big Mick 27 Feb 08 - 04:45 PM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 08 - 05:07 PM
Amos 27 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Guest 28 Feb 08 - 07:50 AM
Amos 28 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM
Bobert 28 Feb 08 - 11:46 AM
irishenglish 28 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM
Amos 28 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM
Amos 17 Apr 08 - 10:52 AM
Amos 17 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM
Bobert 17 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM

But it is every bit as dangerous to put all your hopes in a single hope basket too. Hope should be broad and encompassing.

I am not hopeful about any of the three corporate candidates, yet I have a tremendous amount of hope about the future, regardless of who wins in November.

My hope doesn't hinge upon one candidate or one party winning in November, because I know that is a false reality, a false choice--it is all illusion, really.

What we do in our daily lives--regardless of whom is selected by the ruling elite to serve their interests--doesn't dictate my level of hope or my level of despair.

People need to learn to let go of that illusion. Bush/Cheney, Inc. doesn't have to hold that level of power over you, if you choose to not let it.

Now, it is a far different story for the human beings living on the other end of his policies, to be sure. But that is a different kettle of fish.

Clinton bombed the Balkans back to the Stone Age, let us not forget, and ignored the genocide in Rwanda. It was pretty dire for them, as it is for Iraqis right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM

Unfortunately, we get the politicians we deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

You speak well, Gigi.

Generically, hope is like air -- when it gets soured, life gets a lot harder.

But the source of hope is not external, just as you point out.


Revitalizing hope on a national scale is, however, a very positive thibg to do, IMHO because it taps into suppressed potentials and energy and wakes them up some.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM

"Hillary Blows a Fuse"

Whew. Good to see the rest of your post, Bobert. Thought it was another oral sex scandal to do with the Clintons . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

This stuff about "plagiarism" really is total crap.

I am sure that essentially the same point, using essentially the same examples even, will have been made in conversations and discussions a myriad times.

And I am quite sure that all of us who spend excessive time taking part in online discussions will use arguments and examples that we've picked up from other people along the way time and time again, without the need for obsessive attributions.

There are two main reasons for putting a name to a quote. The main one is because it's a way of reinforcing what we are saying by bringing in a respected person as a kind of ally. The other reason as an act of courtesy towards someone who might see it as a slight to be quoted without attribution.

But is there supposed to be some rigid rule that every time we use a quip or a neat phrase or a joke which someone else had used first - and probably didn't even make up themselves, we have to give chapter and verse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:24 PM

I only ever said one original thing in my life. If I have to attribute everything to someone else, the end notes will be copious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:26 PM

PEace:

Man, you sure coulda fooled me!! LOL

Um...which one was it???



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:58 PM

It was an obscure comment he once made linking dachshunds with global warming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for jogging my memory. It was this:

"Dogs are dogs; dachshunds are dachshunds; global worming is global warming."

My life work in a nutshell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:06 PM

If that crops up in an Obama speech without you getting a credit, you should definitely make a fuss about it, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM

Or publically step forward and tell the folks you emailed it to him.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM

GUEST, what have you seen that makes you trash Obama like that? Facts,please, not opinions based on nothing.

I believe that a vote for McCain is a vote for endless war and 4 more years of failed Bush policies. Why? because he said so himself. He said we could be in Iraq for another 100 years, and he is now supporting Bush's tax cut for the rich while the middle class sinks into poverty.
So, what are your opinions based on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:24 PM

"Dogs are dogs; dachshunds are dachshunds; global wArming is global warming."

So much for my life work . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM

Ah, man, dinna chafe or fasch thysel'...you'll get another one.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM

no, no...I think perhaps the globe might NEED to be wormed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM

Us talking without quoting someone is one thing. It is another thing entirely when a presidential candidate does it, using the words of a living politician, even if they are best buds and share the same speechwriter.

Obama admitted that--and apologized. But he didn't agree it rose to the level of plagairism.

I think that satisfied most everyone. But if they make the same mistake a second time, he won't be cut any slack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:28 PM

"...another thing entirely" Seems much the same thing to me.

If Obama felt it polite or prudent to apologise, fair enough. But there wasn't really anything that needed an apology - and I gather the other bloke said as much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:53 PM

McGrath, now you just sound ignorant. All of Obama's speeches are being recorded and will become part of the nation's historic record in the Library of Congress.

EVERYTHING candidates and their spouses say is a big deal.

Plagairism, had the charge against him had merit, would likely have resulted in him needing to drop out of the race.

Because you don't give a shit about it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things, just like the fact I don't give a shit about it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

It matters to the people it matters to, and they are people well connected to power and privlege.

It doesn't matter what the other bloke says in a case of plagairism. What matters is the act of committing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: fumblefingers
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:00 PM

Obama has a gimmick going for him. He's half African. But he isn't a descendent of slaves. He doesn't have the accent of most native born blacks. He's well educated, speaks well, and doesn't seem to have the "them vs. us" baggage that so many so-called black leaders have.

His record at the national level is very liberal, which probably suits most people who frequent this BS forum. He hasn't done much of anything and is for the most part, an unknown quantity. He speaks in generalizations and platitudes, which makes it difficult to discern what he intends to do should he become president.

Apart from the promise to raise our taxes and come up with a new health system, his intentions are unclear.

The three leading candidates are all US Senators. Senators are deal makers, not decision makers. None of them have any real managerial experience. The president's job isn't an entry level position and therefore I don't like any of them for the top job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:11 PM

This whole "plagiarism" nonsense is a tornado in a teacup, and trying to make this big a deal out of it is just plain silly. Not to mention, downright petty.

But then, that's the nature of politics, I guess. At least Karl Rove style politics. Notice a tiny piece of lint on a candidate's clothes. Pick it off, feed it steroids, then braid it into a noose and try to hang them with it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:41 PM

I suspect that unfortunately Hillary's switch to angry partisan will actually help her. She couches it in terms of being willing to fight for the voter's interests, while implying that Obama will not. One of the talking heads over the weekend (I heard it on the radio) was counseling her to do exactly that--to change from an appeal to the voter to support her to a pledge that she would be a fighter on behalf of the voter. Voters like fighters--fighting for them.

And Hillary can do this very effectively since voters also like simple answers--"universal health care--no exceptions" or "freeze on interest rates". Many will not stop to examine these slogans--Hillary's health care mandate means you must buy it even if you don't want it. And the freeze on interest rates may well make it hard to get mortgages.

She believes in the KISS principle--and it works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM

What kind of Health Care scheme you actually get is surely going to be more dependent on what kind of Congress you get than on what kites the Presidential hopefuls have flown in the course of their campaigning.
.............................

The fact that something is part of the historic record in the Library of Congress isn't in itself significant, unless the thing is significant in itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:50 PM

Gigi-what I find funny about all of your posts on all of these political threads the last few days is that although well informed, you are very reactionary at the same time. This country has the attention span of a nanosecond. Hence Michelle Obamas verbal gaffe has been replaced by Hillary blowing a fuse, which was replaced by the plagiarism charge,which was replaced by Nader's impact, which was replaced by the turban controversy. If anyone but the muckrakers remember this in a week, I will be astounded! None of this stuff is really sticking on the national level because there is something new everyday, and there probably will be until March 4. By which point Nader will scratch his head and say...maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all this time. And previous posters suggesting that no matter how you spin the words, all 3 of the major candidates are following the same "mold" as to how to get elected is true. So the way I see it, we either need to get "close" to how we feel things should be personally and vote for that candidate, or not even bother because they all suck one way or another (Nader included). That to me would be the worst thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

Well, well, well...

If plagerism is the main concern here then folks better buckle their seatbelts 'cause it's gonna be a long campaign with only so many things to say... I mean, how many ways can one ask the American people if they are ready for another 100 years of occupying Iraq???

I mean, lets get real... These speeches are going to get more and more like "the same old tune, fiddle and guitar"...

Everyone is borrowing stuff... It is rediculous to have every candidate interupt his or her speech with endless footnotes...

Try somethin' else 'cause this dog won't hunt.

B~..


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:15 PM

Do politicians ever gives credit for the jokes they include in speeches? Or for that matter acknowledge the input from a speech writer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:24 PM

If they did it would sound like an NPR discussion on the mating habits of a sand flea! Hillary-"What the real problem is....quoting my press secretaries wife's daughter's classmate from July 29, 2007 is...." No one has ever thought to discuss plagiarism in a spoken word speech before, the written word yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM

Clinton's hopes to use Ohio as a firewall in her falling campaign suffered another blow today when former Cleveland Mayor Michael R. White, who had earlier backed Clinton, also endorsed Obama.

"As an African American, I am proud to see Barack Obama make such an extraordinary effort to become the president of the United States," he wrote in the Cleveland Plain Dealer. "But being black is not enough for me to vote against my friend. I am voting for Barack because he has rekindled my hope again through his experience, vision and leadership for change in a political system that has gone so awry."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

Amos-thanks for that. A tough, gutsy decision no doubt, but what he has said is the reason I have been for Obama as well. My wife supports Clinton now, but as she said, this is an historic election, and whatever the outcome of the Democratic primaries, we will see something truly unique. That's not to forget about Geraldine Ferraro, but this is really something (as long as the Dems hold on of course!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM

For the record I should say that in the early stages and up until he withdrew I was supprting Edwards. I figured Clinton and Obama were going to cancel each other out in a manner of speaking, and Edwards would be there waiting. Ah well, can't always be right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:48 PM

From the Washington Post:

Hillary's Diminishing Returns

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, February 26, 2008; Page A17

There is dissension in the Hillary Clinton camp. Top aides have been in arguments, shouting back and forth about differences in strategy. Should Clinton come on strong? Should she go negative? Should she be upbeat and positive? Here's my answer: Stop campaigning.

The evidence is overwhelming that since Super Tuesday, the minute that Clinton steps foot in a state, her numbers start to plummet. Of course, Barack Obama has something to do with it. He's a phenomenon, a political version of Roy Hobbs, "The Natural" of Bernard Malamud's wonderful novel, whose physical repose is TV perfect and who will, when the time comes, provide a jarring visual contrast to the much older John McCain. Obama is nearly as good as he thinks he is.

So it could be that Clinton would lose the Democratic nomination even if she were a gifted politician. But she has no such gift. Her smile is strained. She is contained. She seems unknowable, and there is that melancholy Billie Holiday air about her -- all those songs about a suffering woman. Most of us would prefer Fleetwood Mac's "Don't Stop (Thinking About Tomorrow)," the upbeat theme of Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign.

It might seem surprising that Clinton has turned out to be something other than a brilliant campaigner. But consider her record. Back in 1999, she entered the New York Senate race in the manner of Marie Antoinette entering France -- to be ultimately crowned queen. When Clinton announced an interest in running, every other potential Democratic candidate -- Andrew Cuomo, Rep. Carolyn Maloney, even Al Sharpton -- took it as an order to vanish. The strongest of these, Rep. Nita Lowey, graciously stepped aside, as if Clinton was the real McCoy and a six-term member of Congress was an undeserving interloper.

Back then, I wrote that there was "something wacky" about what was happening. Clinton, you might recall, was hardly a New Yorker. No matter. She had never won an election in her adult life. No matter. She was virtually inexperienced on her own. No matter. She was first and foremost the wife of Bill, and for party leaders and hypocritical feminists -- Lowey was a woman, too, for crying out loud -- she just had to be The One.

With the Democratic senatorial nomination in hand, Clinton was set to go up against Rudy Giuliani. This would have been the great matchup between two suits inflated with little but name recognition, but it never came to pass. Giuliani withdrew on account of prostate cancer, and Clinton wound up facing . . . can you remember? It was Rick Lazio. Even so, Clinton did not win really big -- 55.3 percent of the vote. Not a landslide.

Six years later, Clinton ran for reelection. Once again, she had no Democratic opponent, and in the general, she faced a Republican named John Spencer. He was little known before the election, hardly known during it and so forgotten afterward that I expect a segment of the show "Lost" to be devoted to him. Clinton won in a landslide, 67 percent of the vote. But just two years earlier, Sen. Charles Schumer (D) had gotten 71 percent of the vote -- and no one ever mentions him as a presidential candidate. In many ways Clinton is a remarkable woman, but she is not proving to be a remarkable politician.

Big-money Democrats have been on the phone of late, and their conversations have been on how to get Clinton out of the race. Some of these Democrats were tepid Clinton backers to begin with, wishing to go with the presumed winner or responding to the soft extortion of Bill Clinton and his allies. But others were sincerely committed and now fear that the Clintons, she and he, will not know how to lose -- and will take the Democratic Party down with them.

Politics can be ugly, not to mention sad. Broken dreams are strewn across the American landscape. Fred Thompson resigned from "Law & Order." Chris Dodd moved his family from Connecticut to Iowa just for the caucuses. Mitt Romney blew through a fortune. John Edwards campaigned through personal pain. The difference between a presidential candidate and a fool in love is only a matter of Secret Service protection.

For Hillary Clinton, a loss has to be particularly tough. The presidency is not just the ultimate honor for her. It is, as others have suggested, a justification for all she has put up with.

My cards are already on the table. I don't think that Clinton can win the nomination, but even if she does, I don't think she will win the general election. That would become apparent as she starts to campaign in states that have yet to see her. The harder she works, the worse she does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: DougR
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:04 PM

Go Hillary!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM

That's always an ambiguous slogan....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:59 PM

Frankly, I just don't see how Obama can win in the general election. Rank and file voters vote for Hillary when given a chance.
                      Caucuses have to go or we'll pertentually have a Republican president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:17 PM

Yeah, I didn't think Obama could be Clinton, but I was wrong about that.

Obama might be able to win. If he does, he probably can't be worse than Bush. But I reserve the right to say he is worse than Bush if he actually turns out to be worse than Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:28 PM

I not only grant you that right, I reserve it for me as well!!! But ya know, I am seriously doubtful that could turn out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:37 AM

Why would you think it isn't possible to a couple bad presidents in a row? I happen to think it is the only option available to us under the current system.

Clinton, as a president, sucked. Bush I also sucked. Reagan was the last 'good president' in terms of what he accomplished, even though what he accomplished was an abomination when it came to civil rights in the US & human rights in the world, and sent us spiraling into the apocalyptic environmental scenario we are now facing, by gutting the EPA. Oh, and then there is that FCC thing...

But the fact is, he accomplished all that. And an argument can be made that Bush/Cheney finished the job and sealed the deal. An argument can be made that Bush/Cheney have been extremely good at their jobs--they have railroaded Congress to get their initiatives passed more successfully than any administration since FDR put through the New Deal.

Again, their policies have done more to destroy democracy at home and abroad than any president since I'm not really sure who with their Good Ole Texas imperialism and empire building, and draconian civil and human rights record. Not to mention, watching smugly while the environment goes up in flames.

But hey--the Dems haven't done jack shit to counter any of that stuff, even when they had the opportunities to do it.

So, in my estimation, if Obama sucks at the job of being president--which means forcing your policy initiatives through a dead on arrival Congress--we will just keep sinking into the abyss.

We need an environmental crisi president, who will overturn all the bad civil & human rights legislation day one, and start to face reality instead of playing ideological politics with the fate of the planet.

Nobody on the conventional political two party horizon will do that. Nobody. So just how do you expect things to be better because we have a Coke president instead of a Pepsi president?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM

So, vote for Nader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:09 AM

That's the plan, for now anyway. But that is a protest vote, aimed squarely at the loser Dems, telling them it is time for the progressives to take back the party and throw the DLC & corporate Democrat bums out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM

I think Obama is as progressive as you can get into the job. THe system (and the country) has too much inertia to have a white-knight solution, carving the Gordian knot into smithereens with one heroic election. That's a fine dream but there are too many vectors and too much inertial drag to change things that way. The closest we have to a viable Trojan Horse is Barack Obama, and any vote in support of that is a bet on the improvement of the future -- even if it is not as fast an improvement as you would want to have in your dreams.   In a world where millioons have to synchronize their dreams into action, or stagnate with the Republican alternative, the options are few and the path out is obvious.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 04:45 PM

The key, Amos and Gigi, would be for Obama to initiate a change program that would show progress towards the goals needed, and in surrounding himself with the right cabinet, one that would be viewed as change agents for the working/middle class. Otherwise he ends up on the same pile with Carter. The problems confronting our country over the next 50 years are enormous. He must craft a policy with vision that folks can see, and feel committed to. Much like what Roosevelt did with his efforts. Our society is pretty cynical, which is why a guy like Obama is so necessary, but he must be bold.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:07 PM

Yes, he would have to be very bold. And he would then have to physically survive being that bold for the duration of his first term....a difficult proposition in these ruthless times, I think.

If he has the guts and the will to do it though, I wish him the best of luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM

Yes. ANd above all he must speak truth to power, and to the country; if he is perceived being duplicitous or tapdancing, he will probably alienate his own base as they gradually see politics as usual where they prayed for an agent of change. His reputation for saying the truth clearly is his most valuable asset, IMHO.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:50 AM

He ain't speaking truth to power--he is speaking to his choir and his funders. Middle class voters with a lot to lose, and the corporados who rushed in the minute they smelled victory.

Nearly every single person in the Obama inner circle are former Clinton policy hacks and appointees.

Now, I might be cynical about the current crop of candidates, just like I was with the last crop. But at least I know my presidential election history.

They blamed Wallace for nearly losing the election to Dewey (he pulled about as many votes as Nader did in 2000). Later Wallace turned away from the Progressive Party and denounced them as the cozy with the commies party. But at the time, he was definitely the most progressive candidate and on the right side of most issues of the time, like segregation and universal health care.

It's important to remember too, I don't think I ever could have voted for the candidate who dropped the bomb. The only president to use weapons of mass destruction against humanity. The 'end the war' presidential solution we all fear a Republican might use, when the reality is, the only president who ever used it was a Democrat.

So it isn't always just cynicism driving the decision making of people like me. Sometimes it is the knowledge that power corrupts far too easily. I think Obama is far more likely to succumb to that than Clinton. Which is why I think Clinton is the marginally better choice. But they are both so revolting to me I could never vote for either one of them.

I don't do 'strategic' lesser of two evil voting. No matter what. I refuse to throw my vote away with my conscience, especially when it means it allows the politicians to throw out theirs in the exchange for my vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM

power corrupts far too easily. I think Obama is far more likely to succumb to that than Clinton. Which is why I think Clinton is the marginally better choice.

I admire your intense conscience, lady. My thought on the same question is that Clinton has already succumbed to the corruption of power, and has more to hide than Obama does. Power corrupts easily. Yet, we must have someone in power, clearly, under the present scheme. What's the antidote to corruption? Self knowledge, character, and an understanding of the insane consequences that stem from insane acts.

IF those are the antidotes, seems to me Obama is better supplied with the anti-venom than Hillary is, especially because she has Bill the deal maker riding on her long coattails.

This is not to say Obama is golden or bulletproof or saintly. I am sure he is none of those. But he strikes me as a person who values honesty, while Hillary, Bill and Bush all share (in my view) the sense of expedience as the senior good, a principle that leads to disaster and breeds blind spots like maggots on a dead civil-rights worker.

A

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:46 AM

Half the battle in solving the massive problems that confront the US is ending partisan bickering... To that end, Obama appears to have a nack for turning confronttaion into cooperation... Hillary just can't get anything to stick to him... Nor will McWar...

This is why Obama should win the nomination and win in Novemeber, as well...

Even the Repubs understand that things have gotten purdy messed up under the stubborn and scretive Bush administartion and if these same Repubs don't play a little nicer then the voters are gonna put their party out to pasture...

Not that the Dems have been different but the Dems are the ones gettin' ready to take the wheel and Obama can be a good role model for them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

Agreed Bobert!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM

John McCain -- HOPE YOU CAN'T VOTE FOR.




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:52 AM

"During the past week, Sen. Hillary Clinton has presented herself as a working class populist, the politician in touch with small town sentiments, compared to the elitism of her opponent, Sen. Barack Obama.

But a telling anecdote from her husband's administration shows Hillary Clinton's attitudes about the "lunch-bucket Democrats" are not exactly pristine.

In January 1995, as the Clintons were licking their wounds from the 1994 congressional elections, a debate emerged at a retreat at Camp David. Should the administration make overtures to working class white southerners who had all but forsaken the Democratic Party? The then-first lady took a less than inclusive approach.

"Screw 'em," she told her husband. "You don't owe them a thing, Bill. They're doing nothing for you; you don't have to do anything for them."

The statement -- which author Benjamin Barber witnessed and wrote about in his book, "The Truth of Power: Intellectual Affairs in the Clinton White House" -- was prompted by another speaker raising the difficulties of reaching "Reagan Democrats." It stands in stark contrast to the attitude the New York Democrat has recently taken on the campaign trail, in which she has presented herself as the one candidate who understands the working-class needs.

"I don't think [Obama] really gets it that people are looking for a president who stands up for you and not looks down on you," she said this week.

But those who were at the event say the 1995 episode fits into her larger viewpoint. As Harry Boyte, the director of the University of Minnesota's Center for Democracy and Citizenship who was at the retreat, told The Huffington Post: "[Hillary Clinton] sees herself as the champion of the oppressed, but there is always a kind of good guy versus bad guy mentality. The comment before that was that 'the Reagan Democrats are our enemies and they weren't on our side,' and she was agreeing with that comment. She said we should write them off: screw them." ...

(Huffington)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

"Let's stop pretending: it's over. Done. Nice run, but time to hit the showers. Last night's debate -- in which Clinton, to her credit, generally refrained from the kind of egregious negative campaigning her campaign focused on before the departure of Mark Penn -- eliminated any possible remaining doubt, not because Obama "won" but simply because he didn't destroy himself.

Clinton's only real chance to win the nomination was for Obama to make a tremendous gaffe - so tremendous that he self-destructed and all the remaining Superdelegates turned to Clinton as the savior of the party - and the only place a hyper-intelligent guy like Obama would possibly slip up is in a highly public, unscripted setting like a debate. But he didn't slip up, and it's starting to look like there won't even be any more debates. At this point the entire endgame is predictable. Clinton, like a good chess player, can easily see that the remaining moves inevitably lead to checkmate; it's time for her to tip over her King and concede defeat.

..."

M.S. Bellows in the Huffington Post, 4-16-08


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Blows a Fuse....
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

What the hey, 100...

Obama/Richardson '08...

B~


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