BUSHwhacked Two!!

Subject: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:35 AM

First PartHERE

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:56 AM

McGrath,

A vison many of us share.

On taking ours politicians to seriously: I think a difference may be is that they take themselves so seriously. Are quite willing to create a bureaucracy and spend lots of taxpayer' money in support of what any reasonable person would recognize as portentous posturing.

And the question is would either the Queen or PM ever consider proposing something like a National Day of Prayer in the first place?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Firecat
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:13 PM

I actually watched the Presidental inauguration, mainly cos I had nothing better to do, and the only thing I can remember from his speech is that "Something or other and abuse are not acts of God, they are failures of love" and I just thought " SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I actually ended up shouting "GET ON WITH IT!!!" at the TV screen!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:44 PM

Firecat,

I watched it too. As a sort of penance for future sins. And later read the transcript, to see if maybe I missed something. There was nothing to miss. And in case you've repressed the whole experience, he never did "get on with it". About on par with most HS commencement speeches. No sound, no fury....no nothing.

But then, he tried to make up for boring us half to death by some of his cabinet appointments.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Burke
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM

The Church of England is the established church, right? The Archbishop of Canterbury could announce a national day of prayer for the Queen or the Parliament or whatever. An additional division of power.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:38 PM

You find the appointment of John ASHCROFT (and resulting confagaration in the Senate) for Attorney General "BORING"???

Really?

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:47 PM

I'm curious Firecat, how young are you?

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:04 PM

Oooooh, the murder/borts are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the green weenies are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the anti-Christian bigots are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the union-thug bureaucrats are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the lying, thieving RATs are whacking, bad!

Signed,

The People from the Red Areas of the map.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:23 PM

Wait! I forgot one;

Oooooh, the smart@$$ed, vulgar, lowlife, white trash dirtbags are whacking, bad!

(We should be able to kill a lot of perfectly good socialist giveaway programs and prosecute a lot of criminals in the next few months)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! Woooooo! He he he he he, no please, HAW HAW HAW HAW (gasp, pant pant) Whoa, you're killin' me! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Signed,

Ha ha ha ha ............(holding belly "oh, oh, oh")

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:32 PM

kendall, remember the birthday thread? She's just turned 17.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: MarkS
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:45 PM

Calling for a national day of prayer unconstitutional?
Doubtful. Freedom of speech and all that.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: blt
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:59 AM

Computer problems and my job bring me to this thread a bit late.

Reading over BUSHwhacked I & II, I think how easy it is to generalize about complex things. Abortion, prayer, Christianity, the Constitution, atheism--I feel uneducated in many ways when I consider all the ins and outs of these issues.

Kat, you wondered where the energy would come from to fight against yet another wave of oppression. Where has anyone ever gotten this energy from? My feeling about this is much of the world has been fully engaged in this fight and by virtue of my citizenship (US) and skin color (pale) and class (middle), I've been exempt. It's about time I feel to be a part of something more worldly and human.

The Right and all that word implies (from Bush to the far Right) reminds me of that character in the film Yellow Submarine that snortled up everything, including itself. Perhaps that's an optimistic view of the possible future we're facing. It's oddly optimistic, because I'm not particularly optimistic about the next 50 years. The drive to have things at someone else's expense is an old problem, but it does feel as though that process has been intensified exponentially. I believe that those with corporate wealth--that less than 1% of the human population--are panicking because it's clear the supply is drying up. They are like addicts, indeed, they exemplify the addiction process because even knowing that resource extraction and over-consumption are killing the biosphere (which includes us), these profit-driven practices continue. I think Helen Caldicott observed in a speech that when gasoline-burning cars are aggressively marketed to the populations of China and India, the atmosphere will not recover. Period.

So here's the paradox--knowing that there are the corporate junkies who would like us all to become junkies and who will even go to court to force us to become junkies, how do I, with my 1974 Martin D-28 and my 49 year old life span, drum up the courage to just be who I am? And how do I express my love and compassion for all those who would simply just like to be who they are, with friends, families, lovers, babies, grandchildren, old scratched record collections, flannel shirts, hiking boots, and all the paraphenalia we cherish in our own right? How do I talk to the very injured teenagers and small children I work with, who live in very injured families and communities? How can I survive witnessing their trauma, let alone how can I help prevent it?

Personally, this is what I've decided to do, and ironically the decision was made a long time ago--it really chose me, I didn't chose it--and I'm not preaching to anyone, just describing what has been and is helpful to me in my life. I'm not exactly good at doing all these things, I'm still a practicing human being and I make a lot of mistakes. And this list is deceptively simplistic.
Meditation, Tai Chi, and Chi Gong
Hiking
Dance
Education
Singing
Hot springs
the ocean
the mountains
Relationships of trust and love
teachers
learning to be less judgemental
speaking up
writing letters
caring for my grandson
poetry and songwriting
political activism
change the strings on my guitar

Don't give up, the potential we have to be fully human is completely real, more real than the ghost-lives Bush and his ilk would have us lead.

blt

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:01 AM

Uncle Jaque,

The speech was boring IMO. It was fairly typical for that sort of thing but it didn't do anything for me. One way or another. The appointments weren't boring. Nor were they a big surprise. Consistent with what Bush has espoused throughout the campaign.

Norton and judicial appointments concern me much more than Ashcroft. What Ashcroft (if confirmed) does or does not do can be reversed. The damage potential for Norton and an ideological judiciary are much more far reaching. (Just as was/is the damage done by ideologically liberal judges). Please note I said ideological. A judge who is conservative or liberal who doesn't use their office to promote their personal agenda is one thing. Judicial ideologues of any flavor seem to be wholly in the "ends justifies the means" camp.

MAV,

And the rich will get richer, the poor poorer, the middle class will shrink and the election results remain under a cloud. Can a constitutional amendment to change the title of "President" to "Generalissimo" be far behind?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Stakly
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:25 AM

WHAT is that pervasive STENCH ?? oh, only MAV- someone forgot to flush the loo again.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

Why does the so-called "Conservative Cavalry" keep forgetting the lessons of history? We had so-called "free market capitalism" and it did not work. Faced with a full-blown Communist threat in the early days of the last century, the Capitalists opted to incorporate a level of socialism. This worked pretty well for a pretty long time.

Now, once again, greed is overcoming common sense. In their efforts to squeeze every bit of profit they can out of our tortured environment and their poorly structured system and inherently unfair system, they are trying to go back to those glorious days of yester-year, when the captains of industry and commerce are free to do as they please.

LISTEN UP, MAV - It didn't work before and it won't work now. Bush is not smart enough to conceal the true face of corporate greed. Do you think the rolling blackouts in California are accidental? Or that they will go away? Or that people will continue to ignore them forever? Keep dancing you're foolish little "victory dance". Keep gloating your little gloat. Your ideas are old and flacid and they DO NOT WORK.

We all share this world. It is a finite arena, with finite resources. Unbridled exploitation is not a good plan. And yet it seems to be the only one you have to offer. If there was any place left for you to go I'd say "Take your bad ideas and GO AWAY." But whether you like it and admit to it or not, it is ONE WORLD. And, in the end, you cannot continue to pretend that you have a right to most of it while billions go without. Like the fall of apartheid it's only a matter of time before the balance shifts for good and all. The only question is whether the change be managed or cataclysmic. Your lack of vision, your greed, your refusal to accept the inevitable practically guarantees the latter.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM

Bart, I believe that you will find that the problems in California stems from their deregulation bill which forbids the utility companies to pass increased costs along to the consumers.
So as the price of fuel increased, the utileties profits shrank and have now reached the point where it costs them more to produce the power than they are allowed to charge for it.
No business can survive under these circumstances, whether large or small.
I don't know who pushed the deregulation bill with its obvious flaw but I seriously doubt that any corporation would back such a thing.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:30 AM

troll,

Deregulation was pushed by the utilities themselves and groups like BOMA (Business Owners and Managers Association - who've made deregulation of utilities their primary lobby effort for 2001). One of Bush's biggest backers is a firm in Texas that buys and resells generating capacity. PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric) was also a major supporter. Both have made major profits under deregulation. The utilities who backed de-regulation at the State level, tended to vigorously oppose it at the National level.

I read that aluminum factories in Washington State (who contract in advance for huge amounts of power at discounted prices), have stopped manufacturing aluminum and are reselling the power. and making more profit.

Another factor in the California debacle is that something like 25% of the overall generating capacity is off-line. In the days of regulation, such thing were monitored by the bloated, liberal eco-freak dominated bureaucracy that was eroding the profits of the utilities to make sure their weren't rolling blackouts. Saying that taking that much capacity off-line at the same time was done as a deliberate attempt to drive up prices would be unproven speculation.

Regards John

Guest, Stakly

I don't see any need for ad hommium attacks on MAV. His ideas speak volumes about who he is (or pretends to be?)

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Liberal
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:12 PM

Wasn't it great how the Democrat staffers trashed the White house and offices? Stealing the W from hundreds of computer keyboards, putting pornography on the computers and in the copy machines, turning desks upside down and spreading rubbish about, writing grafiti on the walls with magic marker, cutting telephone lines, supergluing file cabinets shut, and much more! Great!!

That will teach those Republicans who is the smartest! They will know that Democrats are not to be trifled with! We can all be happy, now that we have shown them a thing or two!

What was icing on the cake is when Air Force One - taking the Clintons to New York, was stripped of all china, blankets, pillows, toothpaste, silverware, and anything else of value! Hoo-Ha!

This proves that liberals are smarter and more sophisticated than any Republican! Come on you people - lets hear how great you think it was. No need to hold back!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:14 PM

Sorry. My last posted twice and I don't think I did it. I know a few days ago one of troll's posts hit six times then all but one went away. Anybody know what's going on???

Regards John

I think the system has just been a bit slow.
It's okay...gives us JoeClones something to do:-)
- la joeclone -

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

Guest Liberal,

Does "disgusted" count. Vandalism and theft are vandalism and threat.

Interesting fact in my state (and maybe Larry or someone can confirm if it applies on the federal level).

Theft of government property (and stuff like the "W" and the stuff from AF-One would count) no matter what the value, is a felony. In Florida, when it comes to government property, the normal dollar value guidelines for what constitutes a felony are waived. The standard is intent.

If that's true on the Federal level, I hope the new Administration peruses it. If its true and they decide not to do anything, the guilt just gets spread a little further.

The cop-out will probably be that the "w" thing was just a practical joke and all the stuff from AF-One were just souvenirs. If the cost of the "souvenirs was budgeted and appropriated under the law and paid for from the Whitehouse budget, its just sor of tacky. If not, it's theft and needs to be treated as such (whether as a misdemeanor or felony). What if it is theft and the decision is made not to do anything?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM

Pennsylvania has gone through deregulation and doesn't seem to have the problems that California has. Anybody know why that is? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know but would like to....

Frank

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

Can we get a reference for this supposed theft? Unnamed flamers hardly make me confident of the veracity of their childish scrawl.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:38 PM

So far, in checking many of the online news sources I use, none of the above claims of vandalism, except the "w" keys from the computers, has been substantiated.

In the menatime, odly enough, our local rag has a front page article, from AP, about how "Enron CEO Kenneth Lay, who raised more than $100,000 for Bush's campaign, is a member of the president's transition team and attended his economic summit." Enron also happens to be one of the "biggest benificiaries" of the California power crisis. Enron bankrolled his political career more than any of the "single company." Of course, the president's office and Enron are denying that Dubya's rejection of price controls, which happens to be enron's take on things, had anything to do with his decision.

blt, thanks. I do need to get back in touch with those things you listed, which was pretty near what I've always used to keep the energy going. I think I've been in the wasteland/third world country of Wyoming too long...it gets ya down, sometimes.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:45 PM

Thanks, Skeptic. Well spoken.

I heard today that W. has suggested that environmental controls need to be eased in California to allow plants to work at capacity and that new plants should be built in Mexico (no regulatory problems to hold down profits there!). This is all very well orchestrated, indeed.

I haven't heard anything about the Democratic vandalism of the White House; such childishness and stupidity is deplorable. I guess I've been paying too much attention to the environmental vandalism Bush is preparing for, as evidenced by his appointees. The White House can be easily repaired. How do you restore wilderness after the oil companies have been allowed to do their dirty work? There's not enough oil in the Alaskan wildlife preserve to solve our energy problems, so why do irreparable damage for a stop gap measure? Oh yeah, I forgot. The investors in the oil companies involved will reap quite a windfall while the taxpayers are left with the cleanup. Such is life under a "business-friendly" administration. And it's just beginning.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM

Kat

www.drudgereport.com has a lead article with all the latest rumours on the vandalism/theft. Haven't seen anything else on that. The Washington Times carried the story about theft from Airforce-1. Their site is at http://www.washtimes.com/

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Stakley
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:54 PM

John, if you must impress us with your latinate erudition please spell it correctly, right?

I see it as more of an ad humanoid attack. Someone as obviously ignorant, uneducated, childish, boorish, and ill-mannered as MAV's posts show him to be is rather a lower form of life.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM

Ah, the Washington Times. That bastion of objective reporting.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM

Thanks, John, I saw that one on the Drudge and have learned to be a bit "skeptical" when he posts such *loud* headlines. I would imagine, just as they sensationalised the Clinton's taking the gifts they were given by friends, from the White House to their new home, so might these other news items. If someone researched what others have done when they left, it would make an interesting comparison.

BTW, I said "oddly enough" up there, even though I had a typo, because the artclee which details all of that, on our front page, today, cannot be found on the AP site, not in a search on the writer's name, the headline, nor keywords. Makes me wonder if it somehow got killed and our paper caught it before the hatchet.

Here was my Cry in the wilderness for the enviroment pre-election days.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:18 PM

Guest Stakley, My motives for posting to mudcat are varied. Impressing anyone isn't one of them. I'll try to be more careful on proofing in the future, however as I meant to type ad hominem. Of which you have provided a perfect example.

I did like your take on MAV. Or maybe 'ad alien', as some of his ideas seem only distantly related to anything on this planet. Conversely, it could all be a big put-on. Sophomoric but there are elements that suggest a 16 year old putting on the world, very pleased with himself for fooling all the adults on the forum..

Bartholomew,

I agree in spirit but think that "slavish adoration and fawning" captures the Bush Administration's relationship to big business. But then so does "doing what we paid for", too.

Kat,

The Enron story is on the CNN website. At least as of 1509 today (EST). Shown as an AP story. Amazing that the liberal press hasn't given it more play. If it disappears, I'm going to have to take another look at my level of personal paranoia. I did save the page though.

Mousethief. And Kat,

Didn't mean to imply that the stories have any great credibility. As neither seem have shown up anywhere else, either they were BS....... or maybe there really is a cabal of liberals who control the press and they killed the story. Any bets as to whether that silliness becomes the latest "proof" of the great liberal conspiracy??

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM

LOL, thanks John, good to know the story really exists elsewhere...don't know why it wouldn't show up on the AP search at Drudge.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:53 PM

Prepare to ad hominize,

Well let's see.

As far as my inferior sophmoric humanoid mind can determine, you leftie democrats are composed of a bunch of unreasonable, condecending, self righteous, lesbian murder/borts, homosexual, organized labor/crime, self serving bureaucrats, trial lawyers, ignorant Palm Beach voters, illegal aliens, gimmie girls, "journalists", "educators", multi-pierced/tatooed/green haired "students" with black lipstick and nails AND BILL CLINTON!!!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:21 PM

You forgot us feminists. Geez, ya even missed quoting one of your, I am sure, heros: "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." Rev. Pat Robertson, one time GOP candidate

Ya, right...

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:26 PM

As to being "rude", you guys wrote the book. When someone on the right stands up to you, we are rude.

You hate American conservatives more than you hate the the communists, who murdered millions of people in the last century.

The "right" are hard working people who most likely live in the red areas, who go to church, play by the rules and want to be left alone. They are also the armed and dangerous Chamber of Commerce (a secret society of the dreaded private sector).

The only rude people I saw in the massive crowd at the Capitol were the ten nervous protesters.

There are only so many sources of objective journalism available in this country and considering the deteriorating CNN and failing CBS news, people are sick and tired of the same old liberal filter of the "news industry"

The Washington Times is the second most quoted paper in the US. The news gods (like Tim Russert) all feel compelled to read it.

Drudge has done us all a great service and has as good a track record as the so-called main stream press.

Hopefully Ashcroft will crack down on the democRAT mafia. Let the indictments begin.

Signed,

The people in the red areas.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:42 PM

I didn't leave you out, I said murder/borts.

Now go back to killing your husband.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 06:58 AM

Mav,

Speaking only for myself, I have never claimed the people who live in the red areas are rude, or that people in the blue areas aren't. Coming from a "red area", with most of my family and a lot of friends still living in same, good solid Republicans, Baptists and CofC members all, I look the liberty of sharing some of your insights with them. The quote I liked best was "Well, I agree with a lot he says. Obnoxious little SOB, though."

Sophomoric describes stereotyping and name calling, right, left or center. And is contrary to most ethical values, Christian or secular. Comments I have made about you reflect my opinion of your ideas and how you go about expressing them, not those of people in the "red areas" in general. Your attitude seems to be the opposite. To resort to name calling when someone doesn't agree with you is sophmoric. As is the unproven assumption of authorized omnipotence that usually is at the base of such actions.

As you are a fan of Drudge, What about his report of GWB's directive not to prosecute any of the vandalism. If it occurred and GWB decides not to prosecute, such a decision doesn't sit well in my "blue area". Or with people I know in the "red areas" either. This is man who took a solemn oath to uphold the laws of our country, who ran on a strong law and order platform and has nominated Ashcroft, who's in the same vein, as Attorney General. Actions seem at odds with his words. Pointing to failures by Clinton as justification evade the issue of character and honor.

Regards, John

Being

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:09 AM

Since when do you guys want to be left alone? You are at least as intrusive as liberals. You just want to control different areas of people's lives.

Yes, I hang in the blue areas. I find this end of the spectrum to be a lot more fluid, a lot more open to change and a lot more heterogeneous. It tends to be inclusive, and I like that.

Unfortunately, you find people on both ends of the spectrum who are manipulative, self-righteous, bombastic, unforgiving, short-sighted, small-minded, pig headed, shabby-thinking, intellectually dishonest and (in short) human. At least at this end, we are more likely to recognize our failings and give others the benefit of the doubt about theirs. And we have a sense of humor.

I'll make you a deal - GET OVER YOURSELF and I will try to do the same.

Peace and love to all you 'Catters and guests
Catch ya later
Bart

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:32 AM

"Theft of government property (and stuff like the "W" and the stuff from AF-One would count) no matter what the value, is a felony."

If true, which no doubt it is, that is totally insane. Anyone who ever took an unauthorised paper clip from a government office has committed a felony? Those whom the gods would destroy thet first make mad...

Youi do realize don't you that, while you're rolling around on the floor taking bites out of each other, the politicians from both sides are scratching each others backs, and drinking together and swapping dirty stories and generally having a high-old time at both your expenses? And no doubt chuckling at how seriously you take their alleged differences.

Here's a picture you might like - front of the new "Private Eye", with Baby Bush and Daddy Bush

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:39 AM

True enough, McGrath! And in light of the shenanigans in Florida & elsewhere, what makes anyone think that this "vandalism" wasn't staged by Dumbya's incoming troops?

What a circus!!

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:53 AM

Sheesh! How long do you think it takes me!

Very good point, Greg!

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:13 AM

McGrath,

In Florida, anyway, the law excepts minor items of incidental value. (pens, paper-clips and the like).

I try to take politcis seriously, but never politicians. I think being mad is a prerequisite for office.

Enjoyed the picture. Thanks

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:15 AM

Relax. Bush says he will not prosecute the Clinton administration staffers who did the damage. The cost is now up to about $250,000.00, but at least we won't have to pay for it - the government will. After all, some Reagan staffer probably took some paper clips 12 years ago, so what's the big deal, right?

It was all in good fun and how could anybody be upset about these childish pranks? After all, the Clinton administration was populated by immature people.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:51 PM

Thanks ever so much for raising the level of the conversation, Liberal and MAV. Without your sniping and snide comments we could never have reached politician-level discussion.

Alex

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM

Guest Liberal,

Here I am, a liberal and I'm pissed off. At the Clinton staffers for doing it and at the Bush people for not prosecuting it. Or maybe the rules have changed and two wrongs do make a right? Did I miss that in my email.

Taking the "w" off keyboards was immature and silly but I could see how you might just shrug and get on with life. The vandalism being described is just wrong. The legal logic of refusing to prosecute escapes me, although the political logic seems clear.

On a 'silver lining' note, the whole incident (from vandalism to forgiveness) does help explain why 50% of the potential voters don't even bother to vote.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM

Taking the w off the typewriters was funny, and well within reasonable bounds. The other stuff sounds pretty silly, Animal House style. Though I imagine a lot of it is spin, PR games to distract attention from something else.

But if you must go in for such an extended "transition period" it's really asking for trouble.

Why drag things out in such a ludicrous way? Here the Tories were in power for 18 years. Then an election, an overnight count, and they were out of their offices within a quarter of an hour. And that's pretty typical for most democracies.

I know there are some other countries which have a similar long transition periods, but so far as I can see, that's generally to give the crooks in power the time to organise a coup if the elections have gone wrong, or failing that, a chance to destroy the incriminating evidence. I don't think that applies in the USA - at least the first part of it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 02:35 PM

Clinton could show a little class, and perhaps add something positive to his "legacy" if he would stand up and denounce these actions by his people, and offer to pay for the damages.

I don't expect this will happen, but it is part of his legacy.

I'll bet the Bush people don't do this when the time comes (in 8 years) for them to leave.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:00 PM

McGrath,

The transition time date back to the good old days when travel was by horse, wagon, stage, boat or afoot. It was designed to give people time to get top the capital. And to demark a clear transition date. I think someone brought this up about the electoral college dates in a earlier thread.

Silly today, but changing it would require amending the Constitution, which is cumbersome at best. That and most flavors of the political spectrum don't want to call a Constitutional Revision Committee to fix little oddities like that out of fear of what else might get 'fixed'.( Like the Abortion Ban amendment that floats around but never gets anywhere. The fear is not that it will pass, but that it will fail. (As polls tend to show). Ind of like campaign finance reform. The party that's out of power seems to be the one in favor of it.

Also, in the US, a lot of the White House Staff is hired and serves only as long as the current president is in office. Aren't cabinet members in the UK also members of Parliament? Do they appoint department heads and such when they're elected or inherit what's in place?

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:30 PM

I find it strange that there have been-as yet- on crys of outrage from my liberal friends over the trashing of the White House offices and the looting of AF-1.
But I guess it shouldn't surprise me too much. After all, you are all reasonably intelligent. You had to know what kind of people the Clintons are and what kind of people they surrounded themselves with.
But this last performance shows the depth of contempt that they seem to have for all those who supported them for the last 8 years.
And some of you STILL want Hillary in 2004?

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:08 PM

toll,

Please get it straight. Al is '04, then Al with VP Hillary in '08, then Hillary in '12 and '16. By then Chelsea will be old enough to take over in '20. I'm telling you, four years of GWB will almost guarantee a good thirty years of liberals being in firm control.

While I am a liberal and we are acquainted, (friend is stretching it a bit), I was outraged. As an ordained cynic I can't say I'm shocked. Merely reassured that my cynicism is supported by facts.

What is your take on the Bush decision not to prosecute? Is this 'compassionate conservativism' or cynical politics? Which is worse? The vandals or the cop who refuses to do anything about them?

Drat! Back to the lessor of two evils thing.

Of course, Bush gave fair warning a with his recent pronouncement that the job of the legislative branch is to pass laws and of the executive branch to interpret them. Which shows a distinct lack of gratitude to the Supreme Court for ruling in his favor on recounts. And demonstrates a unique interpretation of the Constitution, to say the least.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:18 PM

Maybe Eric Holder, who is holding down the fort over at the Justice Department, will prosecute.

Oh yes, I forgot that Holder is one of clinton's hacks. More joy for vandals.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:27 PM

JUst have a squint at that Constitution, and I couldn't see where there was anything in it that requires a lengthy transition period. It looks as if all thatbstuff is left wide opoen to be adjusted to meet the needs and preferences of the day.

And it used to last until March didn't it? And I don't believe it needed a Constitutional Amendment to bring it back to January.

Dumping the electoral college would be a different matter, but that wouldn't be required. After all when a President dies in office there isn't any transitional period. A period of readjustment, but that's not the same thing.

With us the political advisiors and tghe politicians, which include all the Ministers, get booted out. There's a permanent civil service who run things anyway - "Yes Minister" is said to have been remarkably close to the truth. Far more so than The West Wing, which they have just started showing here.