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BS: sliding into a depression
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Deda Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:50 PM This is a great thread. The only thing I would add, and it's already been touched on, is that from my own experiences I have gained a lot of respect for how potent depression can be, how strong it can be, and how serious it can be. The point of this is only that you need to take the measure of what it is you're up against, and don't underestimate it. That is NOT to say that you can't overcome it. Many of us have, or at least have come to terms with it and managed to carve out a way to live without succumbing. I have dozens of things that have helped, but I think all have been mentioned. But if you had TB, you wouldn't want anyone telling you it was just a cold. You need to arm yourself for the right battle, so to speak. Kendall -- you haven't lost your voice as far as any of us are concerned. Your mudcat voice is as clear as ever. And if you count yourself a speaker, you can always speak here, even if you're temporarily mute in Maine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:11 PM I don't mean to poke fun at the topic but perhaps a bit of a laugh would be appreciated in this crowd. At any rate, it's a lesson not to rely too heavily on hypnosis. OK, it's off topic, but what the hell. Maybe it'll bring a smile while some of us worry over Bob. (Like me.) The town fathers were looking for a way to increase attendance and participation at their regular meetings. One member suggested bringing in a hypnotist. The officials agreed. A famous hypnotist was hired, publicity distributed, and everyone was pleased. A few weeks later the meeting hall was packed, and the townspeople sat fascinated as the hypnotist withdrew a beautiful antique pocket watch from his coat. He began to swing it gently back and forth while quietly chanting, "Watch the watch, watch the watch, watch the watch ..." The crowd became mesmerized... the watch swayed back and forth... light gleamed off its polished surface.... Hundreds of pairs of eyes followed the swaying watch, until suddenly-- it slipped from the hypnotist's fingers and fell to the floor, breaking into a hundred pieces. "Shit!" said the hypnotist. It took three weeks to clean up the town hall... ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:18 PM I wanted to post this separately fvrom the post above so excuse me for posting right back again. This is for people whose depressions run in a bipolar fashion-- and you especially, Bob-- whatever the underlying cause. Be very, very careful about your Mudcatting. The speed of thread loading, and the way you can thread-hop, zinging points around, can take you when you are in a manic phase and really wind you up, as one of our regular members found when he first joined. Yes, Mudcat can cheer up a gloomy day. But if you are on the upswing of your cycle... it can really jazz you up past whatever you thought you had learned about self-management in your recovery. Think of it as a drug interaction.... You may need a break from Mudcat to rethink how to participate in such a way that it does not exacerbate the problem. So.... take it easy, OK? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: kendall Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM Thanks for the kind words Hilary, Deda, Norton!...I had another exam today, and this guy just doesn't know what he is looking at. He keeps saying it is "abnormal" irritated, maybe I need a laryngoscopy or a biopsy. All I know is, I lost my voice two months ago today, and four professionals have no clue why. I can stand the despair, it's the hope that's killing me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Jan 02 - 09:29 PM I heard from Glenda this evening that Bob is doing better now. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:26 PM I'm still new here, but I'm guessing that two crises have been averted? RD and Bob are two different individuals? Keep in touch with the thread, both of you, if you feel it helps. And the advice about not getting hooked on the list is also good. Taking a break from the computer and dependency on this list is a part of healing. Voicelessness: Diane Rehm (may be spelled differently) on NPR has something-or-other dysphonia--she loses her voice due to a constriction, and you can hear it coming on over time. She'll go away for a week or two, and after a treatment (an injection in the vocal chords of a botulism concoction) she's back talking. Seems over the months and years that she struggled with this a doctor who listened to the program knew that is what plagued her, but somehow it wasn't ethical for him to contact her to say so. He was a guest on her program after she was diagnosed and treated. Talk about waiting for the other shoe to drop!
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,rd Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM Hi WSIWYG, I completely agree about seeing the funny side of things(& I know I haven't slipped too far as a lot of humour Is still funny). I was watching a video of 'Monarch of the Glen Last' (UK tv) last night - very funny right until Richard Briers blew himself up. Now I AM worried - THAT is striking me as funny. Hi SharonA You've a good point about a general check-up, I do seem to have gone down with a lot of bugs in the last few months. Hi Kendall, I think I know what you mean about the danger of hope. I can live fine in the middle as far as expectations go,but then get too ambitious singing/relationships whatever & then have to live with toning hopes down when they have become too unrealistic. Good luck everyone rd |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Amergin Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:48 AM I have been through two emotional breakdowns...both lasting almost a year....was dangerously close to a third and death this last spring/early summer....was dangerously close to death during the second breakdown...I would not leave my house...save to step out on the porch...would eat little....save for comfort food...and feel worse...could barely smile...both times unemployed and no income whatsoever coming in...was living off of my parents...who barely tolerated it...the first time after 10 months I was force by my mother to go on the oregon health plan and then get some meds....the second time i was on the verge of homeless...but i got emplyed just in the nick of time...and started pulling myself from the darkness...with the help of a woman to whom I will always be grateful...even if we are no longer speaking....i went back on the meds last summer...but ran out of prescriptions last fall...and have yet to go back to the doctor...not a very doctor friendly person...seen too many idiots in white coats over the years....besides things have stacked up and i could not get the time to do so...or at least that is what i tell myself...might be i am just too comfortable with depression...the thought of being "normal" scares me....oh well... |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,53 Glenda at work Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM Susan, Bob and I laughed and laughed at the town hall hypnotist story. Very funny. He seems to be adjusting to a new med ok. Perhaps it will finally be the right one? After a year I hope so. It is hard when one's husband (or wife) is sick and doctors can't seem to come up w/right diagnosis or right med. We are hanging in there tho' Thanks to all who are so caring! Glenda |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SharonA Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM Hi back atcha, rd! Yeah, a check-up couldn't hurt. Even if there isn't some nasty undetected disease lurking in your body, the very fact that you've had "a lot of bugs in the last few months" might very well have left you feeling run-down and in need of lots of R&R.... and susceptible to bigger "bugs" (ya don't need to come down with pneumonia, either)! Sorry if I sound like a hypochondriac, but it's only because I know from personal experience that, sometimes, it isn't "all in your mind"! The 53's: I'm glad to hear that Bob is apparently adjusting to the new medication. Here's hoping it really is the right one. Sharon |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM One of the things I have most admired about Mudcat is that whenever we have had threads abour depression, people have respected one another so deeply. Creative types often run to emotional volatility of all sorts, and so when we talk about this I see us at some of our best. No stones thrown, no "poor-you" stuff, just understanding that I think carries over into the other threads as well, once people have been so open. And we really seem to expect one another to carry on... to keep the music going no matter what hurts. We value the effort to keep going, above many other values in this place. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:34 PM SharonA, that's an excellent point about things NOT always being "all in your mind"! I think all too often we tend to dismiss our feelings (or allow them to be dismissed by others) as something that will pass, or that we have to "get over", etc. It's so important to recognise when we need to get some help. I have to say that I, too, have been totally & wonderfully impressed at the outpouring of empathy, support & excellent advice in this thread---"How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! Oh, brave new world, that has such people in it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Wyrd Sister Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM Amergin - "the thought of being normal scares me" Years ago, Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band had an LP called 'The do(ugh)nut in Granny's Greenhouse'. This contained the immortal line "Normal? If you're normal I intend to be a freak for the rest of my life!" I took this on as my motto, with or without the tablets! Hope you, and all reading this thread, get to wherever you're really wanting to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:20 PM it seems like i've been bonkers for years, i've known that something was wrong for a long time, but when it all started to crumble, that's when i knew i was going down,and i did go down, and i'm still down a lot of times, sometimes i'd just like to stop taking all meds and see what hapens, i have high bp too and that med doesn't help things any. thanks for caring, BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:30 PM Now there's a lifter... the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band, cleaned up to become the Bonzo Dog Band. Not a bad idea to take heavy dose of Bonzo once in awhile.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SINSULL Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM RD, You recognize that you are slipping back into depression. That is positive. Now, do what you know you have to do to reverse it or at least control it. If you have been on medications, you know that depression is the result of a chemical inbalance in the brain. Get a physical, see your therapist, and follow all of the above advice. Keep talking to people who are sympathetic. The urge to hide (at least for me) is dangerous. Email me at SINSULL@AOL.COM, if you need to talk. I am back from potential suicide to a recognition that life and mine, in particular, is too precious to waste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: 53 Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:09 PM it happened again this morning, i had an attack of violent rage, an anger, i broke my table and i cut my head, i dont know waht brings these on, but i've now taken enough medicine that maybe it will bring it under control, if it doesn't i'll just dump down a few more pills till it goes away, i was afraid even to turn on my computor, afraid that i would brak that too, and i know that i can't play guitar right now, cause i'dprobaly break that too, i just don't know how much more of these i can take. BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: 53 Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:17 PM vitamin klopin, and serequel make good bed buddies during times like these, it doesn't take a whole lot to get you right, or sometimes real wrong, so have a good day, and happy drugs to all. BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM Now Bob, check with the doc-- don't self-dose! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Deda Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:01 PM Bob, I agree w/ Susan, I hope you're getting some professional input into what to take when, how much, and not just tossing pills back like popcorn, so to speak. Dosage and interactions can be a very big deal in how, whether meds work, as you know probably much better than I do. I don't mean to sound preachy, I'm just concerned and hope that the worst has passed, and that you're recovering some balance. I am sorry to read about the rage you've experienced, and especially sorry that it cuts you off from being able to play music. You probably can't break your voice in anger, so maybe you can sing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: marty D Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM After reading a couple of unrelated Pop music threads and now where this has gone, I find it quite disturbing. Forums like these can be a great help to people able to share ideas and absorb and disseminate information, but they can result in disaster as well. A generally unmoderated forum can be rife with some very strange agendae, which can really hurt fragile people. Getting alternately positive and then negative reactions (the other threads) can be dangerous. marty |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:35 AM Yeah, all the encouragement and shared experiences are important, but Mudcat can't be a substitute for professional help. I read things here that worked for someone else that I know either wouldn't have worked for me, or I wasn't in any shape to do. The best thing about this thread isn't that it can solve your problems, rd, or 53. It just tells you that you are not alone, and that people care enough about you. But, Pleazzzze see someone who can help you figure out what will work best for you. I didn't take medication. Does that mean that I should encourage you not to take it? Not at all. Some people self-dosed or used herbal remedies. Should you? I dunno. Some folks thing that aloe can cure anything. The best general advice I've seen is to have a PLAN. Man, there's nothing like having a Plan. That means that you are not succumbing to the feeling of helplessness. If you try something and it doesn't help, try something else. But, get someone more knowledgeable than us to help. If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so.. My prayers are with all those who know how dark the night is. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,rd Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM Hi Jerry, thanks for the post. I agree with most of what you say. I posted here in the hope of a few suggestions that real people dealing with their situations had found helped, it was always going to be my responsibility which bits were going to be useful to me. The strength of feeling behind all the recommendations is incredible - but why post something you have no faith in. Luckily, I have access to the literature - the bio-chemistry & statistics etc, but it was the view from the ground I really felt I needed. At the moment, I'm not planning to raise the depression issue with my GP, mostly because I think I am not slipping too badly - & with help from friends & here I hope I'll get past this. I don't regret AT ALL that I asked for GP help 5 years ago, I was so down & had fewer resources to draw on then, & without the meds, I dunno. & Other people here have spoken highly of that route. I would NEVER want to put off anyone who needs to speak to their GP, but anyone should be aware there are a few drawbacks. I typed a paragraph of of own personal reservations, but deleted it - because if you need that level of help you need it. A bit of advice from me (may only be valid in uk) but if you're getting nowhere with your GP - you can change GP. I was lucky - my 1st GP was ok & since moving house - current one is great,unfortunately it's not always the case ! Anyway - my hopes of a few ideas were truly surpassed. Got to get ready to go out now. I've been dithering all day about whether to go, but now sort of looking forward it. Best foot forward everyone, rd |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:35 PM My message to all, whether depressed or not: Don't think of antidepressants as a crutch. Think of them as an artificial leg. Which DOESN'T mean that therapy and dealing with the issue(s) isn't of equal and paramount importance; it's just that dealing ONLY with the issue WILL NOT CURE THE DEPRESSION. And if you are just down about something and dealing with the something deals with the being down, you are pretty much by definition not depressed. Even if the degree to which you're down prevents you from functioning and requires intervention - your problem will have a different diagnosis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Steve in Idaho Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM As a clinician, who also struggles with depression/anxiety, I have really struggled with a General Practice physician prescribing psychotropic medications. In the hospital where I work it is now becoming standard practice to also refer the individual to a social worker, psychologist, or counselor to follow up on a regular (weekly) basis to ensure the medication is doing as intended. Medication is, at best, a bull in a china cabinet. We really don't know why some things work the way they do. Lots of theories but very little actual proof. Many medications are given for mental health issues because of the side effect they have found when treating other disorders. I also believe there are four parts to a human being. And all four parts need to be included in the treatment plan. 1) The physical - medications and exercise 2) The mental - Talk to someone you trust 3) The emotional - There is an excellent book out there called, "What You feel You Can Heal." by John Gray Ph.D.. Emotions are very important and must be acknowledged and addressed in an appropriate manner. 4) The spiritual - We all believe in something - even the Aetheists have to believe in order to not believe (whole nother discussion *G*) and it is equally important to participate in those rituals. One alcoholic I worked with finally accepted that his coffee cup was bigger than he was - he could quit drinking but went bonkers if he couldn't find his cup. And spirituality is about believing in something larger than ourselves. The above are general statements and are not intended as treatment for any of the issues presented in this thread. Every person is unique and requires special care - and that care, when the symptoms are serious, really needs to be handled in concert with professionals. My last thing is responsibility. Recovery is the onus of the individual. I am responsible to do what I need to do to feel well. So I am quite assertive about requesting changes if what I, and others, are doing appears to not be working. Be well folks my thoughts are with you- Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Mr Red Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:48 PM For family reasons I won't go into, I watched the news & read New Scientist lighting on articles about Prozac, depression and similar, still do. One article that sat up and wouldn't be ignored was about dieting. If you loose too much weight too quickly it starves the brain of essentials and it shrinks. The observable effects are to induce symptoms which are uncannily like depression. Is this information any use? From my own experience I can vouch for that but my experience was bound-up in a sense if failure and having to give-up a goal. I found playing badminton a real help then, it is a competetive thing, a co-operative thing, and a physical thing. Yep I endorse the old excercise wheeze, walking to work makes me feel good, walking home much better, but that job is gone now, boo hoo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jan 02 - 03:34 PM I went through a very sticky patch about six years ago, and for those who have never had it (and hope you never do!), depression is gawdawful! It's not just "having the blues" or feeling a bit down—it's debilitating. If you've never been there, it's impossible to understand just how low you can feel. Don't try to handle it by yourself. Get help. I had polio when I was two years old and walked with aluminum forearm crutches all my life. Nevertheless, I've led a rich and active life. During the late Fifties and on into the Sixties I sang almost every weekend in one coffeehouse or another, I did a batch of concerts and some TV, and made a thoroughly enjoyable if somewhat marginal living by singing. I used to clomp out onto the stage and sit down exactly like Itzak Perlman does, with someone caring my guitar for me. I continued performing from time to time on into the Seventies and Eighties, not quite as much as before, but still performing. In spite of having to walk with crutches, there wasn't much I wanted to do that I couldn't. Then on February 5th, 1990, I fell and broke my "good" leg. That put me in a wheelchair, no longer able to walk with crutches. Suddenly there were a lot of things I wanted to do that I couldn't. And ADA notwithstanding, there are many places you just cannot go if you're stuck in a wheelchair. Because of the disability, my life had been slightly restricted before (climbing Mt. Everest or Olympic track and field was pretty well out). Now, I was really restricted. Among other things, have you ever tried playing a guitar while sitting in a wheelchair? The right wheel is where you want the lower bout of the guitar to be, and it throws the guitar way out of position. Really screws things up! It took about five years for this change to sink in. I read a lot, wrote a lot, watched a lot of TV, still played the guitar while sitting on the bed, went out some, but it's a real struggle transferring from wheelchair to car and back again. My universe had contracted drastically. Then, suddenly, I started having panic attacks. Shortly after that, all enthusiasm for existence sank into the deepest pit imaginable. Without dwelling on that, suffice it to say that it was, by far, the worst period in my life. My wife Barbara had been through something like this before and she knew what to do. She took me to a counselor. The counselor sent me to a psychiatrist for evaluation. The psychiatrist diagnosed it as clinical depression, and put me on Xanex for the panic attacks, and prescribed an anti-depressant. We tried Zoloft first, and it made it worse! Then we tried Effexor, and that was no better. The damned anti-depressant made me feel downright suicidal! I decided that somehow I would have to deal with this without the anti-depressant. But how? It was my sister who gave me the clue. "Clinical depression?" she said. "I don't think so. Clinical depression is physiological—a matter of brain chemistry. But take a look at the drastic way your life has changed recently. I think what you have is situational depression. Anti-depressants won't help that, and they might just make it worse. Stick with the counselor" (Without going into my sister's qualifications, she does know what she's talking about.) I followed my sister's advice. It took a couple of months with the counselor and my mood began to lift—actually, it began to lift within a couple of weeks, because I was doing something about it. I stuck with the counselor for a couple of years. We talked a lot, and with her help I managed to clean out a bunch of mental closets. She helped me immensely in learning how to cope with my situation—and to find ways to expand my universe as much as possible. Now? I'm okay. I acknowledge my situation and face it squarely. It's damned frustrating and I don't try to deny it. But—no more depression and no more panic attacks. All in all, I feel pretty good. I still don't get around very much, but I write a lot, I read a lot, I watch a fair amount of TV, and I cruise the internet a lot (spending an inordinate amount of time on Mudcat). I also developed a pretty fair solution to the problem of playing a guitar while sitting in the wheelchair. I bought a small travel guitar, a Go guitar made by Sam Radding in San Diego, which actually sounds like a real guitar (!), and with a strap, I can hold it securely in a good position without the wheel interfering. It's still a hassle getting in and out of a car, but every now and then Bob and Judy Nelson have a songfest at their place in Everett, and Barbara and I go up. Bob tips the wheelchair back like a hand-truck and lifts my up his two front steps and into the house, then a batch of us sing up a storm for the next few hours. What's my current major project? I'm "writing my memoirs," which is a thoroughly enjoyable nostalgia-trip, and trying get all the songs I know, tunes, annotations and all, into some kind of a songbook. Get counseling. But try to keep on top of things. Don't necessarily accept everything you're told. Many psychiatrists tend to take the easy way and reach for the prescription pad when what is really needed is counseling. Sometimes pharmaceuticals don't solve the problem; they just cover it up and it's still there waiting to pop out again. As much as you can, try to be the judge of your own condition. Winston Churchill suffered from bouts of depression. He called it "the black dog." I'm in pretty good shape right now, but if my "black dog" ever returns, I know what to do. I hope this helps. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Noreen Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:07 PM Thanks Don, it's good to know you. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: KAS Date: 17 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM I would like to second Bonnie Shaljean's really excellent book recommendation: "The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression" by Andrew Solomon. ISBN 0-684-85466-X. By far the best, most insightful thing I've seen on the subject, extremely useful for me and for friends, family, colleagues, and artists - anyone interacting with depressives, wondering what it's like, what distinguishes it from other difficult conditions, or why I and lots of other people fighting it act the way we do a lot of the time. Good insights on coping strategies along with incredibly smart, balanced, well-written and well-researched look at the science, history, and sociology of the phenomenon itself. Occasional laugh lines too. Helping me a great deal; I recommend it big-time. Over the past few years, even (especially) as many things in my life have gotten harder, and even as (on many days) my depression hammers me into an ugly incapable crate, I have come to know that - along with an atrophied but stubborn belief in myself, care for all my crafts, proper medication and responsible therapy, and basic support from all my many families - my singing, and the voices of those close around me and you all on Mudcat have certainly saved my life. Thanks, Ken Schatz |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jan 02 - 11:20 PM Thanks for telling us your story, Don--it is very reasuring for those of us who have, and deal with, disabilities, to hear about others who have figured out away to make it work--
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,rd's ex Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:54 AM Sorry to report that she used the Glock and has joined the Minstral boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:25 AM Guest (posing as rd's ex) would that be?:
The minstrel boy to the war is gone, Very bad taste, visitor. This one could stand to be excised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:45 AM Don, I'd like to say thank you, too. Being tethered to a line of oxygen gets depressing at times, but I am thankfull that I am able to get around. You are a shining example of working around, through, and beyond a perceived limitation and what you have shared is invaluable. Another one who inspires me, in that way, is Art Thieme. I made it through situational depression last year. Didn't think I would and finally did take zoloft for a short period of time, BUT I have to say it was support of Mudcat friends and family that really helped me cope and move on. If someone does not have a dog of their own, or a cat, animal shelters, esp. no-kill facilities (otherwise it is really depressing), are a good place to go help out. The cats always need petting and grooming; the dogs always enjoy a walk and personal attention. My brother was almost homebound with depression when he started getting out, once per week, to volunteer at the local Humane Society. He had cats at home, but getting out there to help with the homeless cats got him out of the house, gave him some purpose in life, and made him feel better about himself, because he felt he was contributing in a meaningful way. Of course, if one wants to take them all home and cannot, this suggestion wouldn't be a good one, as that would add to the depression.:-) One of the best things I've read in this thread bears repeating, imo. It was posted by Jerry Rasmussen: One of the hardest things to do in life is to love yourself. There is this misunderstanding about loving yourself and being selfish. I think that the only way that you can become a loving, generous, outward-looking person is to love yourself, forgive yourself, and don't let ANYONE rub your nose in the past. In all cases of depression I've seen, self-love was very low or non-existent. One of the things which I recommend is "mirror-work." Try to look at yourself in the mirror and smile at yourself. Try to say, out loud, "(Your name), I love you." It may take time, but if you can start out even once per day and be consistent with it, it may help. A lot of it depends on your ability to believe in a new way of looking at yourself. It is a tough conundrum of life: if we love ourselves, it attracts others to love us. If we don't love ourselves, it can be difficult for anyone else to do so. I've had over 40 years of experience with a family member who is like this and eventually people pull away because they realise nothing they can do will change things. It is up to the person, themselves, to take the first step and make the changes. Of course, all of the above goes along with what everyone else has said re' all types of treatment and therapy. Only you will know what works best for you. All the best and keep talking to us, please, rd and Bob53, and anyone else who needs to... luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:03 AM Before the discussion was so rudely interrupted, I found I must once again disagree with Jerry. He remarked: If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so.. I know so! Yes, absolutely! The people who had experienced cancer were the most supportive and helpful when it came to deciding how to approach my cancer. And the best thing they could do was to report the positive outcomes in their personal lives. "My sister-in-law had the same thing 20 years ago, and has been fine ever since her surgery" was just what I needed to hear. And I have had occasion since my surgery to give positive support to a friend in a similar situation. The day I understood exactly the relief I must have shown when that friend told me of her sister's recovery was the day I visited a coworker who asked me to come see her because she heard I'd had the same thing she now had. It was tremendously important to her outlook to hear my non-clinical story from me. Don't ever underestimate the value of this kind of exchange. I must also disagree with Mrrzy as the the extent of "cure" you seem to place within the province of medication. You said (I'll attempt block quotes):
I think the entire cause of some forms of depression can be emotional, which brings on the biological reaction, not the other way around. I think the "outdated thinking" is the statements you made regarding the origins of depression--it's too exclusive a statement. It sounds like something a drug company representative might try to pull over on a GP who isn't as schooled in recognizing or dealing with depression as they might be. Freud called psychoanalysis the "Talking Cure," and it really can be. More recent findings show that having a good friend to talk to can be just as useful as analysis. What was revolutionary and a closely-held theory of treatment 100+ years ago regarding information about human thought and communication is widely understood by many people today. We are able to effect our own cures if we pay attention to what our bodies are trying to tell us about our mental states and if we can talk it out. Drugs should never be dismissed as an aid to recovery, or as an outright cure to some forms of depression, but the cruch/artifical leg analogy doesn't work for me. It's too rigidly biased in the direction of the drug companies.
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM I agree with Kat--she chose a good remark from Jerry's earlier post to remark on. I didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with everything he said, just those items I highlighted. Don--I remember times in the kinda-recent past (over the last 15 years or so) when I've met you that I wondered if you weren't dealing with depression--there was anger in you, and self-directed, it becomes depression. I am so glad to read that you've worked through it. I want to add my voice to the others who are urging you to go ahead and finish that autobiography cum history of the Northwest folk circuit that you're writing. The portions of it that you've posted have been fascinating. Maggie |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SharonA Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM Maggie (Stilly River Sage): About your post of 18-Jan-02 - 02:03 AM in which you disputed Jerry's statement, "If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so...", I think the operative word in that statement is "just. Of course it's helpful to talk with others who have gone through what one is going through, who can offer advice and support. But that's only one facet of treatment. In your own case, if you had had supportive friends without also having had surgery, then your tumor would still be in your body! And wouldn't that be depressing?! ;^) Seriously, I think that Jerry (in his post of 17-Jan-02 - 07:35 AM) was simply trying to encourage rd, 53 and others not to depend solely on the advice of friends and strangers on the internet, but also to get professional advice. As he said, "Get someone more knowledgeable than us to help." |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM rd?? You there??? Log in, please! I mean, I don't really believe "ex"'s post, but... still... It would be really nice to hear your voice - |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: 53 Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:58 AM just make sure that you have plenty of candy on hand, it seems to help, if not it will put you to sleep, candy is good for everybody.BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SharonA Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM I'm concerned about Bob 53, too. Bob, let us hear from you, please! |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SharonA Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM Whoops, I cross-posted with Bob! Good to see ya, 53. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:26 AM I am not in the pay of the drug companies, I just don't believe people should struggle with things that they can get help for. See the situational depression story Don Firth told... yes, situations can cause you to feel depressed, which can be cured by dealing with the situation. Even if it were biological, you'd still need to deal with the situation that brought it out. But don't feel that drugs are crutches, evil by definition. They aren't, even if their manufacturers are! |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:31 AM Sharon A, you're right. Dyslexia does cause me to drop out words at times. Though the conjecture at the cancer still being there isn't correct in this case (luckily!); a simple procedure removed it (was supposed to just remove a bleeding polyp). Pathology came with the news of cancer on that polyp, and the "clear margin" is what the follow-up surgery was about. So what is there to the little remark above by the guest claiming to be rd's "ex"? Does anyone know more about he/she? (rd or the guest?) There's always at least one hothead around who will shout "jump" at someone poised on a bridge. There was a case in the news some months back, of motorists pissed off about a traffic jam. She actually did jump. Was that in Seattle? I remember being really surprised at the city in which it occurred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM be sure you drink lots of water. Eat lots of salmon or other fatty fish..lack of fatty acids can cause all sorts of havoc...read up on essential fats and oils. Avoid all margerine and eat butter, olive oil, coconut oil and whatever other vegetable oils you conclude are healthy. I can't figure it all out. If you take calcium, and maybe you should, because it is really important for the neural system, take it and sit out in the sun so you get your vitamin D. They say (don't know who they is) the cozy feeling you get from sitting in the sun has to do with the vitamin D helping your calcium into your bones. Get outside in the sun in the middle of the day, if you are northern, for about an hour or so sans glasss or contacts. Get fresh air flowing through your office and home. Stagnant air can only lead to stagnant minds. Read up on eating excessive carbohydrates (starches and sugars) and the effects of this insulin-sugar spiral. Get rid of as much clutter in your house and garage as you can. This is in addition to seeking professional help. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:28 PM Two clarifications... I didn't mean that talking with others who have had similar problems wasn't desireable. This thread has been beautiful in that regard. It also means an enormous amount to be able to tell people who are suffering, that you or someone you know has gone through the same problem and has completely recovered. I think it's very helpful to hear other people's stories, and how they have found relief. The point I made poorly is that if you read this whole thread, you'll see that there isn't any one approach to depression that works for everyone. If there was, we wouldn't have this thread. Get all the advice and encouragement and personal histories that you can. Just don't rely on the experience of others as your only source for diagnosis. Don't rely completely on Psychiatrists, either. They can be wrong, too. But, they at least have been trained to recognize symptoms and have some history of success in treating them. (Most of the time.) I also think that you could probably divide our experiencings into Situational Depression," or as mine was called a "Depressive Reaction," from people who have a lifetime chemical imbalance. I had a depressive reaction almost thirty years ago because I was under more pressure than I could bear. When I learned how to resolve the issues I was dealing with, I didn't have to deal with depression again. (A major part of learning how to deal with the pressures in my life was to come to love myself.) I would not confuse what I went through with some of the suffering that others here have, and are experiencing. I have good friends who have suffered with depression their whole lives. They think in terms of "management," not "cure." God bless 'em.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: SharonA Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:56 PM Maggie (SRS): I'm very glad to hear that your cancer is history! mgarvey: Eek! I'd mentioned in an earlier post to this thread that rd's lethargy could be a symptom of lupus. If it turns out that (s)he does have lupus, sitting out in the sun in the middle of the day would be very bad – it could cause a "flare-up" and trigger symptoms to worsen. This is why I recommend seeing a physician to rule out uncommon diseases that could manifest themselves via lethargy and depression. A treatment that might be beneficial for the majority of people could be disastrous for individuals with certain chronic ailments!!! Please, please, please, anyone who's reading this wondering what to do about the onset of symptoms that might be diagnosed by a psychiatrist as "depression", don't assume blindly that a psychological problem is the cause, or if so that it's the only cause. Please make sure that your plan of action includes a consultation with your medical professional – a physician!!!!! Sharon |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: GUEST,rd Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM Very much here. Least said soonest about imposters I think. rd |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM GOOD for you, rd. Good to see you and you are absolutely right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM Although people are not helpful when they are abusively in someone's face about the past, it is also true that a step in recovery involves taking stock of what damage one may have done when not at one's best, and seeing what needs to happen to move things forward in those areas when possible. Trust can be lost, and it isn't regained by ignoring what happened. The damage needs to be acknowledged and aplogized for, without any self-blame but with an acknowledgement that a commitment of some kind may have been breached. Trust can be regained once this happens, if the other person is willing, or becomes willing LATER after doing their own healing about the situation. I have seen lots of people pursuing their recovery, in the stage before they learn this, stuck in a place where to escape a feeling of self-blame they deny any responsibility whatever for what occurred. This transfers part of responsibility for their recovery to the people around them-- "You are making me not able to recover by blaming me." Yes, blame can be hurtful, but we can heal even if others around us are not yet ready to forgive. Doesn't mean we have to subject ourselves to their abuse about it-- but it doesn't mean we can dictate the speed of their own healing, any more than it helps us when they dictate the speed of our own. Nothing like two people healing at different rates, from different sides of a mess, to make simple stuff real complicated. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: 53 Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:46 PM at first my doctor thought that i was smoking pot and that i was a drunk, but the only thing that i was addicted to was xanax, and boy oh boy. BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:25 PM Mary, Your sunshine cure is perfect for the Pacific Northwest--but an hour in the sun during the middle of the day down here would cause severe sunburn and heat stroke. I miss those Puget Sound summers. And the remark about clutter is right on--it can be a depressing challenge. Couple it with small space and it can be deadly (though the cats think it's fun to slither through some of my stacks of paper). I have a book around here about getting control of the clutter. . . it's in a stack of books somewhere. . . Calcium is a supplement that I need to research. I am aware that one shouldn't take calcium at the same time as taking other vitamins because it can block absorbsion. I think this could also be the case with medications and hormone replacement or birth control. On the other hand, since women with northern European origins are particularly succeptible to osteoporosis, calcium (and exercise) are very important to maintain bone density. This has been a very informative thread. And it's so easy to join Mudcat, that I urge rd to join and be able to take advantage of all of the offers of personal messages. |