BS: Can we discuss the Class system in UK?

Subject: UK and Class system
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM

Wow, Let me say I approach this question with some trepidation, but I would like honest opinions. I am presently reading Nicholas Nickleby, a Dickens comedy novel. Near the end of the novel, much is made of "marrying within one's class" and staying within one's class, etc. The statement is made that unequal marriages always make the upper class member of the couple as making the extreme sacrifice and the lower class member as getting a great deal. (I paraphrase but you get the gist.)

My question is basically is this sentiment more a matter of the Victorian age or is it in fact a way of thinking in the United Kingdom? I have to say that there are no clearcut distinctions in America as I see it. Granted more priviledged people continue to be priviledged, and more than likely marry people of thier socio-economic class, but with people of all walks of life having university degrees here, it tends to cloud thise issues quite a bit and I know many many people who grew up in a poverty or near poverty background who have now become members of the country club, etc.

I really do not want to start arguments with this thread, but I am just curious if people of the UK seem to feel more in tune with this "class thing" than their American counterparts. Jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

It's a thing of the past Jimmy. None of us have any class these days. ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:25 PM

I agree BPL! My wife assures me of this fact daily! grin

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM

Curiously enough Jimmy the only definition of class these days seems to be people with a decent income and a mortgage, who proudly claim to be working class. Class here used to be definitive, and was the measure of one set of people by another. Nowadays so many people from what used to be regarded as working class backgrounds have all the attributes of what used to be upper class, like a university degree, and a mortgage. There is still a lingering resentment of the 'upper classes' by self styled 'working class people', but so many of the people perceived by them as 'upper class' are in fact from a similar background to themselves, just that they've made good. As the days of the Cabots and the Lodges are disappearing in the US, so are class definitions becoming the stuff of history in the UK.
We are in the age of the meritocracy, and a damn good thing too!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:10 PM

Nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:19 PM

Class doesn't die off as easily as that. It's as much an obsession, in England anyway, as race appears to be in the States. Cultural class rather than economic class, I mean, which doesn't at all coincide.

I don't mean so much in terms of big class categories, like "working class" or "middle class" - it seems much more about a fascination with people wanting to place other and themselves in a very complicated gradation, with infinite number of divisions.

It's an obsession that is implicit in much English humour, in stories in TV soaps, in advertising. In fact it's the guest at every table where strangers are meeting.

But I notice that American politicians seem to spend a lot of their time talking about class, more especially about "the middle class". English politicians tend to avoid that particular expression, largely because 'middle class" tends to be seen as a kind of an insult - they tend to say sayd "middle England" instead. (I don't think they say "middle Scotland" though - perhaps Giok can confirm that.)

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:22 PM

Apart from a few leftover "Upper class twits", we are pretty classless these days. I would go as far as to say more so than the US. There are few golf clubs, or country clubs in the UK which would freeze out a plumber or a taxi driver these days.

However there is one hangover from the past as Giok says, and that is the reverse snobbery of certain people who have not yet lost the old "Us and Them" habit.

Most of us realise that you can't have jobs without employers, and that essentially workers and bosses have the same objectives. The only bone of contention is finding the balance between the employers' wish to cut down wage costs, and the workers' desire to achieve the best possible standard of living.

The argument as to where that balance lies is now probably the last vestige of the old class system remaining.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,Penelope Rutledge
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

Class is an innate quality. You can tell anyone's natural class within a minute or so of meeting them, I think. It's really quite obvious, and it doesn't have a whole lot to do with money, although the leisure time provided by having a great deal of money can certainly help a person to spend time developing social skills and bringing forth an enhanced awareness of cultural richness and subtlety.

*PR

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:29 PM

Things have come to a pretty pass when the title of a thread asks permission to address a given topic!

Just kidding ~ sort of...

Back to the topic:

I'm an American whose brother has lived in England for two recent stertches of several years each, so I learn his take on various "Britishisms" that strike him as suprising, unusual, etc.

One insight that he found surprising, as did I: to have been a "scholarship boy" at a British university does not have exclusively positive connotations. The implication is that the student in question never "really" belonged among his upper- and upper-middle class peers, simply because his family couldn't afford to pay his way.

I'm sure that this kind of thinking is on the way out ~ slowly ~ and I also know quite well that the same kind of snobbery exists in the US. However, in the US, the words "scholarship student" carry an exclusively positive connotation, and Paul and I were both astonished to learn that any perjorative meaning could ever have been attached to this phrase, anywhere at any time. I think this is just one piece of evidence that class-consciousness in the UK, while perhaps finally fading into history, has a stronger residual presence and a more recent history than in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:34 PM

IMHO.....The class system does still exist here...you only have to look at the royal wedding to ascertain that, apart from a few well known comedians and entertainers, who happen to be favourites of the royals...the only people with invitations to Charlie and Camillas wedding are the aristocracy.
The middle and lower classes have become blurred by the nouveau-riche who have won on the premium bonds, pools or the lottery...But the grafters are still the working class.... and doctors, dentists and other equal professionals are middle class and the "businessmen" or owners are the upper middle and function at a distance from the lower class.
Although communication has become easier between the classes, the behaviour and expectations from degrees of the "classes" has not really changed so much.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Surely, Poppagator, to ask permission one would use 'may'. 'Can' is simply a question of the possibility. That's what I learned at my cramer anyway.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:38 PM

Yes I was a victim of the class system...........1Z then 2z......3z followed by a brief promotion to 4c and 5c but when I flunked out a return to 5r.........

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Piers
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

As a red hot, commie, Marxist type I don't hold much for tophat or bowler or flatcap definition of class or whether you've got a mortgage or a degree. What defines class is your relationship to the means of producting and distributing food, clothing, shelter, Nintendo x-boxes, etc. For those that control the means of production, control the means of life itself. In present society, over most of the world, society is divided (not necessarily cleanly) into those who produce (apply labour) but do not possess means of production and those who posses but do not produce (apply labour). Examples of the former type would be someone who lives off the dole, wages, salaries, self-employed, often small to medium company owners still have to labour. Examples of the latter would be someone who lives off profits (dividends from shares, remuneration of directorships - often so enormous they obviously out of all proportion to any work that has been done, fatcat 'salaries').

The state doesn't go around asking what Marxian class you are, but from the figures for marketable wealth, less dwellings, we can infer that the class system is still very much with us. In fact, the class divide is getting greater:
(From www.statistics.gov.uk)
Marketable wealth less value of dwellings (since people's homes are means of production).

1992
The top 1% owned 29%
The top 2-5% owned 24%
The top 6-10% owned 12%
The top 11-25% owned 17%
The top 26-50% owned 12%
The bottom 50% owned 6%

2002
The top 1% owned 35%
The top 2-5% owned 27%
The top 6-10% owned 13%
The top 11-25% owned 13%
The top 26-50% owned 10%
The bottom 50% owned 2%

In 1992, the top 5% owned more than 50% the bottom 95%, but in 2002 the top 5% own almost twice as much. (Thank you Tony)

So I feel working class, in tune with other redhot commie types in the states, and of course working class culture is a result of the above mentioned divisions. But more important than what class you are is the recognition that division of society into classes, the inherent antagonism between classes is a rubbish way of doing things and we could have a society where 100% of people own 100% of the wealth, and then you wouldn't have to worry about class.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

To respond to the original questioner though, there is I believe still a feeling in many people that the worst thing in the world is to be 'common'. Dialect and regional accent are frowned upon by many. Table manners are thought to be an asset to normal society, and many would find for example the manner of the American use of a knife and fork a little upsetting.

A gentleman is expected to possess certain attributes: the ability to tie a bow tie, and the knowledge of when to wear one. The difference between morning dress, evening dress and a dinner suit is instinctive.

The Honours system is condemned by many as an anachronism: few refuse when offered a 'gong' however.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:49 PM

Statistics for the US would also show the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, and the middle disappearing.

What's most disheartening in the States these days is that way too many working middle-class folks want to pretend that they're rich, and therefore vote with and for the very people who are taking money out of their pockets.

Granted, even poor folks in the US are downright wealthy in comparison to most humans around the world and throughout history. But life here requires an absurd degree of wealth; for example, you need a car if you want to find a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

As a red, hot commie type, I really don't care what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:10 PM

Mike,
For the Charles/Camilla thing, and their guests, refer to my comment re. "a few upper class twits". I think that covers the whole affair.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:16 PM

As PR correctly points out class and wealth are by no means synonymous, and most at least upper middle class members in the UK (who did that song, "The Upper Side of Lower Middle Class"?) find it rather amazing that Americans do not understand this.

Class is also little to do with political beliefs - Tony Benn for example is upper class but is fairly left wing.

Speech habits have a huge amount to do with it, probably more than dress - witness the difficulty the press have understanding that Camilla is not a clothes horse, and that while TPT may be of good stock, her taste in clothes is more credit card chic than classy. "New Money" is a term of condescension. The so-called "Posh" (who is jumped up lower middle class of the worst type" nad "Becks" exemplify all that horrifies about "New Money" (and credit card chic).

Those with class of course should be gracious (so the behaviour of Charles has class, but William less so and Harry not at all, probably the wrong sort of Diana's blood showing) so they would never dream of letting those with whom they mix, if of lesser standing, know that they were thought of lesser standing.

I of course am not upper class, but at school I was close enough (in a closed society) to a few of them to understand.

The "scholarship boy" ex hypothesi is working class, usually trying to become middle class (which now is an insult from both ends of thescale whereas it used to be so only from above) so he is a class traitor from below and at best a parvenu from above.

S+R should understand that for "PLU" it is worse to be "vulgar" as Sarah Ferguson was said to be, than "common". It is the lower middle class who fear to be "common" for it is a fault into which they might slip.

Does that help to make it any clearer?

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

For some people the British Royal Family have always been seen as a bit common, or rather, "middle class" (well, since the Hanoverians came in anyway). I think one problem with Diana was a sense she had "married beneath her".

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:19 PM

Clear as mud, Richard. As one born into the American shanty-Irish-trying-to-pass-for-lace-curtain class, the subtleties of the British class system are simply beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM

Perhaps this is one of those cases where to ask the question means that the answer will be incomprehensible. The term 'system' is inaccurate - structure would be closer, or perhaps state. Generally in England (Scotland and Wales may be different) one knows one's place in society.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:27 PM

"Genteel" means "a bit common". The taxonomy of the English social class structure is fascinating. In some ways I think it's got more in commnon with the Indian caste system than with economic class.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:30 PM

With that, S&R, I concur.

Magrath I agree that there are Scottish families much older than Hanover/Windsor (this is getting close to the issue of whether fish knives and forks are lower middle class), but do not forget most of Charles bloodlines go back via Victoria. I do not agree with your conclusion. There was something not quite right about Diana.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:33 PM

If you are "working class", you have your name on your uniform.

If you are "middle class" ,you have your name on your office desk, or door.

If you are "upper class", you have your name on a building.

If you are "a musician", you have your name on a fly poster!!

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM

I agree with Richard Bridge concerning speech habits and class.

I read some statistics at one time that showed that the closer your speech was to 'standard English' the higher your income would be. I also know of an English couple who eventually amassed a small fortune and their accents changed at the same time!

Another aspect of class that has been well documented is that it is quite acceptable for a woman to marry 'up' but very unusual for a man to marry 'up'.

I remember walking the streets around Victoria Station at about 5:00 A.M. and being astounded by the class differences I witnessed. There were the 'street rats' and the wealthy in their limosines. There was absolutely nothing in between. What a contrast!

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:50 PM

.. sory i'm too drunk to read whats gone befor on thi threaed..

i'm council estate working clas grammer schoiol boy..

and i think any comfy privelaged liberal trust fund inheritance life style
hippy twat who denies the reality of class war existance

is next on my punching some sense into their stupid sorry mushty head ......




sorry .. i could continue..

but i reckon the decent people on the same level as me

probably know how contemptuous i feel..

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:53 PM

Round here, we're basically all the same class, living in rented houses on the vast estate of our dear Prince!
There's them that own our land and them that rents a little bit. Apparantly only 6% of the British Isles is available for the non-landed gentry to buy, sell, and live on, and that includes our cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:02 PM

... pleeeease dont you dimwit floatin vote pro-hunting / anti war
single issue voting twathead cunts vote the torys back in
.. i can not afford my old mum & mum in laws health care..


or even me and the wifes..


please stop and think about the ramifications
of voting tony care blairs new labour out

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:46 PM

When we talk about 'class' it seems obvious that the US and the UK aren't talking at all about the same thing.

When we in the US say something like "S/he has/showed a lot of class." we are actually admiring the person's poise in a difficult situation or perhaps a lack of vindictiveness in response to it. We really are not referring to their upbringing or how much money they have.

In the US, the upper class refers to someone who has enough money to live the way they want to or that other people would want to. The middle class also has enough money but may have to budget funds for certain things, like a desired college for their child. The lower middle class also lives well but doesn't have the expectations that people with more money have.

Lower class people- now, here it gets tricky because we are referring not to money but to a way of life or a lack of character. Nobody wants to belong to this class.

So, it seems to me that in the UK, you can be poor but upper class while in the US that is an oxymoron.

This, of course, is a gross generalization, and specific to my own perceptions only.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 10:10 PM

Sorry about the html gone awry.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 10:35 PM

The UK class system is not as rigid as the Indian caste system. It is possible to move between the classes, both up and down.

I think that, overall, education in particular has led to a bit of blurring of the lines here. A bright kid from what was called a working class background can get to university and move up in the 'ratings' more easily than might have been the case 50 or 100 years ago.

Money helps as well. As happened in the 18th and 19th century when tradesmen and factory owners made their money, enabling their children and grandchildren to move more easily into the higher echelons so today's Nouveau Riche will give their children easier access to that area.

Whether any of this upward striving is really worthwhile must be up to the individual. In this day and age can we say that the 'upper classes' are any happier or more fulfilled than the rest of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM

This is all quite interesting and I appreciate all the information.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 03:26 AM

The hard thing Jimmyt is to determine which of the British posters have tongue in cheek - you could be being teased just a little

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 03:41 AM

I think, JC, the generality is that it takes a minimum of three generations to assimilate the norms of the class to which you seek to migrate. So if Pater Nouveau Riche seeks to behave as if one of the upper class, and if his children do likewise, it will be their children who first effectively achieve emulation.

It can take more - Geldorf for example is I believe rich, and his landed estate near Faversham quite impressive, but does anyone think his children will be thought of as upper class?

I remember (long ago) being told why many were not fooled by the pretensions of one of the hangers on of Lord Hesketh in his foolish younger days was not of the class to which he pretended - he was monetarily mean with servants.

And, to repeat, for the benefit of those in the US who do not believe it, yes, in England (and, I suspect, Scotland) it is entirely possible to be upper class but poor. It is not, however, possible to remain upper class or even upper middle class if you do not speak properly (which means rather like Prince Charles or Brian Sewell).

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:05 AM

One of the main differences between upper class and the rest of us is this. When an upper class twit breaks the law, he is accepted back into the community as if nothing had happened. When ordinary people break the law the local police come knocking on their door every time something goes wrong. As evidence I cite Lord Charles Brockett convicted and jailed for a £5 million fraud, who is now a 'media personality', but then he was cutting up Ferraris, and not common cars like Nissans, so that's all right!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:31 AM

For a modern take on the remaining vestiges read Snobs by Julian Fellows.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM

The UK class system is not as rigid as the Indian caste system. It is possible to move between the classes, both up and down.

True enough - but it tends to take a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: jimmyt
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:25 AM

s and r. The reference to use of knife and fork by Americans is interesting. It is obvious that the actual use of knife and fork is different completely in UK than in America. That does not preclude that either system is correct, just different. For those wondering, Americans tend to use their fork (tines up) in their dominant hand, and use their knife when they need to cut something. Our British counterparts une the fork (tines down) in their opposite hand and use their knives very effeciently to maneuver food onto the back of the fork with thier dominant hand. It is really fascinating to observe for me as an American, but I still don't get the concept that it is better. It is just different.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:56 AM

The rule with forks seems fairly arbitrary - when you are using a knife you hold it in your right hand with the tines pointing down, as jimmyt described. Quite trcky.

But it's OK to put down the knife, when you've cut up the food, and to transfer the fork to the right hand. When in the right hand the fork is always tines up, making it much more convenient for picking up food.

I don't actually think this is directly class related, except insofar as worrying about such things is more a middle class thing. Posh people are quite likely to use their fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: jimmyt
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

I have seen folks in resturants who never seem to put the knife down and are extremely adept at transferring food to the back of the fork for eating, though and this skill seems to be very British and not continental. Watching an Englishman eat fish while skillfully dissecting the bones out and managing to carry on a conversation at the same time is akin to watching a fine surgeon replace a heart valve. Maybe I should just quit gawking in resturants! grin

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

They're having a 'finger buffet' at Windsor Castle as we speak, and I believe there will be one or two posh people at the do.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: heric
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM

There was an espionage novel way back in which the spy, adept as he was, gave himself away by switching his fork to his right hand. Got him killed, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:16 PM

we're not as democratic as the Americans. i saw a man marry his pony on the Jerry Springer show....that kind of equality between species...well its visionary!

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:45 PM

weelittledrummer

Obviously, the man and the pony were of opposite sexes. We have recently confirmed, by popular vote, that that is the only thing that matters - (except that they must have sex, since that is what defines "holy matrimony" here).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM

The class system in the UK not only still exists, but is stronger than ever.

You only have to read your broadsheet daily rag to find out the columnists went to Eton Harrow etc. It runs through every medium. Out of every ten talented people the one three rungs up the class ladder will succeed. Its money, landownership, and social networking that keeps it there.

Bring on the revolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM

"But it's OK to put down the knife, when you've cut up the food, and to transfer the fork to the right hand. "

Magrath, I am deeply shocked. It is not OK. People do it, but not the sort of people who are "OK".

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

Perhaps it's something to do with lavatory, toilet, and bathroom (or even powder room).

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:24 PM

I find it upsetting to read a newspaper that hasn't been properly ironed

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:35 PM

Genteel people might not do it, but as I said, genteel is a bit common... "Not quite top" as they say. It's a very intricate business.

But turning your fork over so the tines point up, well, that just isn't done. Much worse than licking the plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we discuss the CLass system in UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:36 PM

Genteel people might not do it, but as I said, genteel is a bit common... "Not quite top drawer" as they say. It's a very intricate business.

But turning your fork over so the tines point up, well, that just isn't done. Much worse than licking the plate.