BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire

Subject: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:56 AM

A lot of people in Mudcat do not like Margaret Thatcher and I include myself in this group. However, even if you do not like her, is there one quality in Mrs Thatcher that you admire. Maybe you admire the way she challenged the prevailing concesus on so many issues? Maybe you admirred her stand on Europe?

I freely admit, I admire the way she refused to bend to the demands of the H Block protesters. Even the death of Bobby Sands did not move her. She had a principal and would not budge to blackmail. That took real courage.

What about everyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:09 AM

She looked marvelous as an inflatable doll...all craggy and nasty and basilisk-eyed. The day she exploded was a deeply tragic one for me, and I have been quite unable to find another since the product appears to have been discontinued.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:21 AM

I admire her in the same way as I admire Hitler for his humanitarianism, Pol Pot for his land filling schemes, Ayotollah Komeini for his religious tolerance - shall I go on?

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: el ted
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:40 AM

Mrs T. was the right leader at the right time. Gawd bless her.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:46 AM

Oh come on Mrs Duck, as much as I diskiked Mrs Thatcher, I would not put her in the same company as Pol Pot and Hitler. She took a determined stand on so many issues that even if one disagreed with her most of the time, there was usually one issue on which people agreed. What this issue was varies from person to person.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: mooman
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:46 AM

Margaret Thatcher makes the following great anagram...

Grrr! A hatchet, mate!

Can't think of anything else at the moment...

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:50 AM

I wish everyone would stick to the subject of the thread. I don't care what everyone thinks generally of Mrs Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:25 PM

The great thing is, she's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:32 PM

Awright...she had grit, and was tough and determined. This can be good or this can be bad...depends on the situation. Saddam Hussein had those qualities too, and so did Andrew Jackson and Winston Churchill.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:51 PM

I despise her, but when you look at all the hideous men in British politics at the time (especially the Tories), she was a woman on her own, and beat them at their own game. I can only shudder at the memory of all those dreadful men.

Everything else about her was monstrous.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: michaelr
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:36 PM

"I freely admit, I admire the way she refused to bend to the demands of the H Block protesters. Even the death of Bobby Sands did not move her."

Boy, if that's not trolling, I don't know what is.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:40 PM

I suppose one good thing is that, any time people are going on about how women are not as capable of being vicious bastards as men are, and how they are more geared to a cooperative approach to getting things done, you can quote the case of Thatcher, to bring a touch of reality to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Dead Horse
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:26 PM

She had the same admirable qualities as Hitler......

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,surprised
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Little Hawk; I am surprised that you bought a FEMALE inflatable doll!

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:48 PM

I think that comparing Thatcher to Hitler is rather stupid.

Not a 'quality' but I think that her greatest achievement was curbing the power of the more militant union leaders. I doubt many here will agree, but the state of the country in the late '70s was pretty grim.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:59 PM

A woman became the head of one of the most important countries in the world.   Maybe the most successful woman in the history of the planet.   And most of you can't find anything positive about that.   She must have had some qualties that caused people in Great Britain to voite for her. As I recall she was in office for quite a few years. Shame on all of you who couldn't find any qaulities.

I have to comment about all the Hitler comparisons.    To quote Ronald Regan "there you go again".   Whenever a liberal has to describe any person they disagree with, they compare them to Hitler.   The comparison has lost all validity- kind of like crying wolf.    The comparison adds nothing to the argument.   It just says the person making it has no intelligent argument to make and must resort to name calling.   It basically puts you on the level of a 5 year old- but that may be too generous.

Do any of you understand how degrading that is to a holocaust surviver to the family of a halocaust surviver.   Do any of you undrstand the devastation of the Jewish population in Europe- 3 million jews were killed alone in Poland not to mention the scientific experiments performed.    When you compre Bush, Chaney, Rumsfield, Regan, Limbaugh, Hannity, Thatcher, Guliani, Gingrich, Lott, Savage, Ridge, Ashcroft, and many others to Hitler, how can anyone take you seriously.   Note that conservatives rarely if ever call liberals Hitler.   Oh my God- its raining today.   Must be a right wing conspiracy those Nazi bastards.

And you wonder why you have lost the house, senate, goverships, and presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:27 PM

Hitler was a vegetarian. Probably the first vegetarian to become head of a European country. That's no reason for vegetarians to rejoice.

No she wasn't at all like Hitler, apart from this belief that she was always right, which is a quality which most successful politicians have. Her father, whom she revered, admired Hitler, I read, and had a bust of him in his study while she was growing up. She can't be blamed for that, but maybe it's an indication of the influences on her in her formative years.

"English Patriot" cited the way she sat out the hunger strikers in Northern Ireland as an indication of what a great leader she was. Without that "great leadership" I believe the Peace Process could have started a lot earlier, and the war in Northern Ireland could have ended a long time sooner, in the same kind of way it eventually did (touch wood).

And as for "...the state of the country in the late '70s was pretty grim." Well, I remember it as quite a good time - far better than it became for the next 20 years or so. Some strikes, true enough, which resulted in a small fraction of the disruption and waste and squalor caused by the way industries were butchered in a doctrinaire way over the Thatcher years.

Thatcher's approach to reform reminded me of Charles Lamb's "Dissertation on Roast Pig" in which he explained how roast pork was invented - a child accidentally set fire to a house with a pig inside, and the villagers poking around in the embers discovered a new delicacy. This eventually led to a rash of house fires. The moral of the story being when you do not understand how the pig gets cooked, you have to burn a whole house down every time you want a roast pork dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:50 PM

Guest - I am even more surprised that you are surprised! :-) Have we met? Listen, if you can help...I am desperately seeking an inflatable doll of Hillary Clinton and cannot find one anywhere. I am willing to pay...anything. Well, almost anything. But it has to really look like Hillary, understand? No cheap K-Mart substitutes.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,woko
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:55 PM

She'll have one when the fucker dies of a painfully long illness of liver cancer the cunt!

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 May 04 - 05:11 PM

Thatcher? that depends how you reed her - a bit of roof

She was a good advert for voice coaches - though a pretty sorry ad for voice coaching.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:12 PM

I understand that she was perfect in her use of feminine hygiene products.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Ed.
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:20 PM

Come on, McGrath!

The 'winter of discontent' was a bit more than some strikes, true enough. I don't know where you were living, but around here it was rats in the street because the rubbish hadn't been moved for a month, and wondering if the electricity would stay on long enough to cook the dinner.

Extremist Union leaders, tried to use their membership to advance their own causes. No secret ballots then!

Do you honestly think that the country would be a better place if Scargill had 'won' the miners strike?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Thatcher fan. But credit where it is due.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:59 PM

What qualities?
Only one, in my opinion.

She taught me that one should never, under any circumstances, be inclined to use a sledgehammer to strike a nail.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:05 PM

She was focused, she stuck to her guns, she did not wobble, and I just loved the way she hand bagged the European leaders at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 May 04 - 09:47 PM

Did she shave her legs and armpits?

Or was she smelly?

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:17 PM

I notice that no one has mentioned the Falklands. I like that she sent in the SAS to scout, elements of the navy to secure the ocean around the islands, troops to take the islands,and I definitely like that she kicked the asses of a junta that was horribly vicious to its own people. And no, I don't want to get into the history lesson of who really 'owns' the Falklands (if you're British) or Malvinas (if your heart belongs to those filthy bastards who were in power in Argentina at the time), pardon me. Yep. That's my comment. Let the shit begin to fly.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 04 - 12:01 AM

I was sort of tickled to see the Junta get clobbered too...and yet I felt a certain sympathy for the Argentinian jet pilots who fought with tremendous courage, took great losses, and might have won the day had not so many of their bombs failed to detonate when hitting the British vessels! At the time I was quite pro-British. In retrospect, I feel great empathy for the fighting men on both sides of that one. The Junta was using the conflict to bolster up its domestic popularity...but miscalculated totally. They should've known better than to take on Maggie Thatcher's government. She was born for a moment like that one.

The British, by the way, came within a whisker of losing that war. It could have gone either way. They had two potentially vulnerable small aircraft carriers standing between them and defeat, and those ships could easily have been crippled or sunk, had the Argies had a little more good luck with their exocet missiles...to say nothing of non-exploding old bombs hitting several other important ships.

It was a question of very high risk to both sides. The Argentinians lost out when the dice were tossed.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: el ted
Date: 18 May 04 - 08:59 AM

Well said Ed. This country was going down the pan thanks to the Unions. The winter of discontent was a low point for England. Somebody had to stand up to those tossers at the TUC.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:04 AM

The Quality that she is now Out Of Power...

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:31 AM

Zero.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:57 AM

The other thing she did which I thought was interesting was giving working people the chance to buy their own council flats/homes. As someone from North America living in Britain at the time of the winter of discontent, I was quite surprised when I was told that this was a radical idea!!! It was clear then (and clearer now) that people like to have equity in their own homes, and that lefties needed to rethink the role of property rights in modern societies. I think it is pretty clear that this was a stark challenge to the utopian kibbutz model that underlay a lot of socialist rhetoric. It made people smarten up.

Her real damage was rhetorical: the stance that vicious "take-no-prisoners" language and ideas were part of modern conservatism. She was the model for the vicious neo-conservative vulcanism that goes on now.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Old Soldier
Date: 18 May 04 - 10:23 AM

The FALKLANDS, you wanker, Thatcher sent British slodiers to their deaths to further her political career.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 May 04 - 10:38 AM

Margaret Thatcher strongly pushed a philosophy of personal responsibility. Thatcher also led a campaign demanding that General Augusto Pinochet go free. A man responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of workers, socialists and other political opponents, who presided over mass executions, torture and rape. Pinochet put an end to Salvadore Allende's democractically-elected socialist government. He destroyed any possible opposition to his new government by arresting anyone who was ever likely to have supported Mr. Allende and socialism, or democracy, or unions, or free speech, or human rights.   

Once they were arrested, the army tortured most of them to try to get the names of more people to arrest. They used electric shock, torches, rubber hoses, and lots of other devices. Then thousands of them were cold-bloodedly murdered. All of this was done at the direction of Herr Pinochet. He was arrested on an Interpol warrant by Scotland Yard detectives at the request of Spain. Both Switzerland and France added their weight to the pressure for Pinochet to be prosecuted for crimes against humanity, by issuing international warrants for his arrest for the murder of Swiss & French nationals.

But Margaret Thatcher had a cup of tea with him.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 04 - 10:44 AM

"The winter of discontent was a low point for England."

"The "winter of discontent", a great phrase which has been used to fool an entire generation into thinking that life before Thatcher was absolutely awful. Shakespeare was a great phrase maker, but he didn't cvonbtrol what people would use his phrases for a few centuries downtye line. That phrase has been used to con people for decades.

In fact it the time before Thatcher was a great deal better in all kinds of ways than it subesequently became, and stayed. What the "winter of discotent" actually refers to is that there were some strikes, and that some public services for periods of days or weeks went down to the kind of level that a few years later became commonplace, as services were cut to the bone; the damage and inconveniance caused by strikes pales into insignifcance compared to the damage caused as unemployment soared into the millions and whole communities were devastated.

As for the Falklands/Malvinas - there wouldn't have been any war at all if she hadn't cut back on the token naval support provided out there, which was taken by the Generals in Argentina as a green light for sending in the troops. Was that sheer stupidity on her government's part? . Or was it an intentional false signal designed to lure the Generals into providing her with a war that won her an election landslide?

Council House sales? The way that they were imposed, and the restructions on councils usingteh money to replenish their hosuing stock it had the long term effect of robbing young people in the future of any possibility of renting good housing for a reasonable amount. It needn't have been done that way, but the intention was never to extend choice, but to narrow it by destroying public housing.
..................

However I've always felt that focusing the anger on Thatcher is a mistake. The people to blame were the people who backed her - never a majority, but a sizeable enough minority in a distorted electoral system to give her absolute power.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 04 - 10:47 AM

"The winter of discontent was a low point for England."

"The "winter of discontent", a great phrase which has been used to fool an entire generation into thinking that life before Thatcher was absolutely awful. Shakespeare was a great phrase maker, but he didn't control what people would use his phrases for a few centuries down the line. That phrase has been used to con people for decades.

In fact the time before Thatcher was a great deal better in all kinds of ways than it subsequently became, and stayed. What the "winter of discontent" actually refers to is that there were some strikes, and that some public services for periods of days or weeks went down to the kind of level that a few years later became commonplace, as services were cut to the bone; the damage and inconvenience caused by strikes pales into insignificance compared to the damage caused as unemployment soared into the millions and whole communities were devastated.

As for the Falklands/Malvinas - there wouldn't have been any war at all if she hadn't cut back on the token naval support provided out there, which was taken by the Generals in Argentina as a green light for sending in the troops. Was that sheer stupidity on her government's part? . Or was it an intentional false signal designed to lure the Generals into providing her with a war that won her an election landslide?

Council House sales? The way that they were imposed, and the restrictions on councils using the money to replenish their housing stock it had the long term effect of robbing young people in the future of any possibility of renting good housing for a reasonable amount. It needn't have been done that way, but the intention was never to extend choice, but to narrow it by destroying public housing.
..................

However I've always felt that focusing the anger on Thatcher is a mistake. The people to blame were the people who backed her - never a majority, but a sizeable enough minority in a distorted electoral system to give her absolute power.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:53 PM

And the search goes on....

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: C-flat
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:05 PM

I could never find much to agree with about Thatchers policies but I wish some of todays' politicians had a fraction of her resolve.
She said what she thought and, when she spoke, her opponents knew she meant what she said.
How many of our current crop of sound-bite-speilers could instill the same amount of confidence or fear (depending on whose side you were on)?
Like a lot of other people I know, I look at the politicians on both sides of the political spectrum and see very few natural leaders.
Unfortunately for Mrs.Thatcher, her greatest qualities, courage and conviction, made her the most hated politician of our times.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: ced2
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:26 PM

2 things:-
1)Her ability to shed not a tear at the growing plight of many under her boot, yet the sobbing she clearly did when her so called mates stuck in the political knife and she was given the order of the boot from no 10; &
2) her death, may it be slow, agonising and long drawn out.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Ed.
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:07 PM

I have no intention of becoming a Thatcher apologist, but this thread saddens me.

Comparisons with Hitler, Pol Pot and Ayotollah Komeini are absurd and ludicrous. Wishing here a slow, agonising and long drawn out death, is basically barbaric. I trust that that was a joke (abeit a poor one), ced2?

Thatcher certainly made lots of bad decisions, but she also did a few things that were really needed to help the general prosperity of the average Joe Bloggs.

To simply dismiss everything that she ever did as wrong and bad, is to show a show a small mindedness of the worst kind.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:37 PM

She was Tom Sawyer's first. And it must've been great 'cause he never married.

Icon

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:40 PM

Admire:

Mostly, although I strongly disagreed with much of her policy (the early bringing some balance to what had become a country ran by an out of control left being an exception), the thing I liked about was that I had some feeling that I knew she would try to do what she said she would do and that we knew where we stood with her even if we didn't like it.

This to me is a sharp contrast to Tony Blair who I think would say anything to gain votes/ remain in power.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:53 PM

I think she did great things for the dentists in this country. Think about it - no free milk for schools means that kiddies since and now tend to drink far too many carbonated, sugary drinks and don't get enough enough calcium to grow healthy teeth.

Yes, it's a tenuous link, but it's the only good thing I could think of. Dentists, Rejoice!

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Ed.
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:30 PM

no free milk for schools means that kiddies since and now tend to drink far too many carbonated, sugary drinks

A cast iron cause and effect proof, Shilo! Well done! (I'm being sarcastic, btw)

The fact that it's the 'only thing...I could think of' says more, with all due respect, about you than about Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:16 PM

True, Ed. But then, we don't get taught useful logic in schools these days. Or any recent UK history (though I did understand nearly all the references in this thread, so I'm quite proud of myself).
But hey, you can't get an unbiased opinion.

(I did say the only good thing, as I'm not sure I think that her treatment of the general strikes, and privatisation of public services was good (thought it may have possibly been the lesser of two evils - I don't know). Sorry, just had to point out that I do know some things...and was being sarcastic too. With all respect of course - whether it's due or not)

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,A wolf
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:25 PM

i admire the way she sorted out the GLC - She just abolished it, and Red Ken and his minions couldn't do a thing about it. Classic bit of handbagging from the Iron Lady.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:57 PM

She has one redeeming quality; a person could not have been better planned as a wife for the whinging drug addicted neonfascist Tush Bumsores.

I cannot help but notice at this remove that she would have been the person to tell hungry little orphans that the OWNER would not let them have any supper.

She like the other one does not have any of her own money or power, so must suck off those who do. Such wealthy people do not have the brass to be nasty, but rely on the likes of her and that other scumbag who's 'meaness' is done so well that some, in a sort of Gollum way, aspire to be the same. Hence our nasty troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Gareth
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:57 PM

I have no love for the woman - But I would not wish her a "long and lingering death" - May she continue to exist to remind people what the ultra Conservatives are like.

A good quality ? Hmmm ! Supporting Howard I think. (or is that to cryptic for the purists ?)

BTW - And this s not inrended to reopen old threads the actions i the Falklands were correct, but taken for the wrong reasons.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:51 PM

I think where you live in England tends to colour you view of the lady. My southern friends used to say throughout the 80's, what recession...?

There was no hard drug problem before Thatcher. No beggars on the street. that was mainly because she closed down the mining industry and the mining villages became citadels of the drugs trade. they had always been places where the police thought twice before sailing in - and it provided some kind of alternative economy.

I don't think she planned to break the power of the unions. I think it just happened out of dumb luck. She was bloody useless at running the economy. Unemployment was a natural consequence. When nobody had jobs - people were in a weaker bargaining position.

There must be some reason why things got better after we got rid of the tories.Maybe Brown is just a better than lamont, Major and clarke were as chancellor. Its hard to figure out what she did achieve and what was going to happen anyway.

Can't say i liked her handling of the hunger strikers. They wanted a set piece like the 1916 rising with martyrs and thatch gave them it on a plate. sin Fein has never looked back electorally. Neither did I like her way with sacking anybody who disagreed with her - Hesseltine and sadly MacGregor - the best Education secretary in my lifetime.

I think if there was anything i admired it was her handling of the media. Hard to imagine these present tales of of the unacceptable getting out of a war zone. I admired her adroitness in debate - she made Kinnock sound like a verbose idiot - even when he had something valid and important to say.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:37 AM

First female Prime Minister of the UK

Longest serving Prime Minister of the UK

She took over a country that was close to being an economic ruin in 1979 (Counter to what MGOH would wish us to believe - Question for you Kevin when before or since did Britain have to go to the IMF for a loan) and managed to completely turn the situation round. She achieved it by the application of leadership and common sense, that many in the country, while not necessarily liking it, did recognise the need for it.

History, I believe will be very kind to her - she will probably be seen as the most effective Prime Minister the UK has ever had.

The policies that were the corner-stones of her government are all still in place today and they have been adopted in other EU countries.

Subject: RE: BS: What qualities in Thatcher do you admire
From: Hrothgar
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:07 AM

She was consistent. That is possibly why some people hate everything she did, and most people hate at least something she did.

I grind my teeth when I say this, but I respect her far more than I do this weasel Blair. Don't even think about her successors in the Conservative Party.