Poor grammar in lyrics

Subject: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: PHJim
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:44 PM

Many great songs contain poor grammar, and I wouldn't want to change a word of them. Hound Dog, Don't Think Twice or Backwater Blues are fine the way they are, but some songs just sound like a mistake has been made by someone who should know better.
Hearing the Olympic Theme Song with,"I believe in the power of you and I" brought this to mind. I know the correct version, "I believe in the power of you and me," wouldn't rhyme, but we shouldn't use incorrect grammar just to make a rhyme.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

Songs she sang to me
Songs she brang to me.

Neil Diamond. Sing Me. Then again, don't.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: fretless
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

I'm usually more surprised when a song gets the finer points of grammar right. and I still smile every time I hear the subjunctive ("If I were the king of the world") in Three Dog Night's Joy to the World.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM

Artistic licence!!! Grammar plays no important part in poetry or songwriting.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM

Poetry creates its own universe with its own grammar; verse never breaks free of the shackles of dull conformity.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Celtaddict
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM

I disagree, Georgiansilver. Grammar helps make meaning clear. This is not to say it must be used formally in all verse; the lyric beauty of 'Fern Hill' and many others would suffer or vanish if we wanted all things clear, but knowing a form and choosing to depart from it for artistic reasons is not the same as a form playing no important part.
My biggest complaint about John Denver as a songwriter was that, if he had an option to use 'lie' or 'lay' in a lyric, he seemed invariably to use the wrong one.
The examples cited by PHJim are sound in my opinion; I don't watch television so did not hear the Olympic theme but 'I believe in you and I' would have made me cringe mightily in any context.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

If it sounds unnatural, probably forced because of the need to rhyme, I try to change it. In such cases it calls attention to itself and interferes with the story.

When it helps convey the story, I keep it. For example, if it helps convey 'This is a song by a person who never travelled far and never had much schooling,' then it belongs.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:13 PM

We can now add a NEW vector in the argument about "What is Folk?". If grammar matters, it ain't folk.



A

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

That "I" has been around a long time.

In vernacular song, don't make no never mind.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Celtaddict
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

Leeneia, both good and valid points. I agree.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Rog Peek
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:37 PM

It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never knowed
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the road

knew and road just don't rhyme.

Rog

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM

One early version of "Working on the CHain Gang" had

"Going home to see my woman, whom I love" - which didn't really sound all that chain-gang-ish.

But on the other hand "So far from she" makes me want to vomit every time I hear it.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:51 PM

How about coming to Mike O'Connor's workshop on songwriting in the tradition on Sunday 6th. June at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club in Lewes, Sussex, UK? Full details on this thread..

Mike's songs include The White Shepherd, Carrying Nelson Home, The Best of Autumn, Unite, Unite, etc. The workshop will cover the art & craft of songwriting: the first reasons for writing, the tools & materials available for following a traditional style, & polishing & performing.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:43 PM

The songs with perfect grammar are the ones that sound like an opera singer"Doing " the pop thing.
@kin awful.IMO

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

But are "knowed" and "road" the best choices anyway? Could just be lazy versification.

Certain grammatical deviations simply reflect common usage among the folks the lyrics either originated with or are intended to represent. For instance, "ain't" ain't wrong within certain vernaculars, only when used in modern, formal English. But when grammar is twisted unnaturally--and not for obvious comic effect--it grates or at least distracts.

I can't suppress a snicker when I hear McCartney's "Live and Let Die": "in this ever-changing world in which we live in".

That said, I have to point out that the Olympics song doesn't necessarily contain a grammatical error. Consider: I believe in the power of "you and I". In this reading, "you and me" would be more grammatically questionable. Nevertheless, this interpretation, without preparation, is unlikely to occur to listeners, so I still consider it clumsy song versification, as glaring as the the Olympic torch.

English depends heavily on word order for proper interpretation, so the liberties taken in verse not infrequently lead to some comical referential ambituities: was it the cowboy or his horse that kissed the girl? I find these kinds of gaffes occur more frequently than disturbing grammatical errors; caveat songwritor.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

McCartney's "Live and Let Die": "in this ever-changing world in which we live in".

Are you quite sure it isn't "..in which we're livin'..."??



A

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Betsy
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:17 PM

Amos , IMHO I'd say the line is OK - for "live in" (think of " exist ").

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM

". . . in which we live in."

Uh. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM

Although colloquial misuse is often bad grammar, If a phrase or word is often misused then it can be acceptable in a song.

When I first heard "Sing it pretty Sue" it really grated, but it is a common usage which is acceptable in its own environment.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:31 PM

Did this use of "me" instead of "I" come along in the last 40 years or so? I swear I remember my teacher whacking my knuckles with a ruler for saying "You and me." "You and me" may be correct but it still hurts my, umm...ears, every time I hear it.

David E.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM

One should never need to use the subjunctive in a love song if one's love is certain!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: PHJim
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

David E.
If you wouldn't say,"I believe in the power of I," then don't say ,"I believe in the power of you and I."
On the other hand, "I'm going to the festival," so "You and I are going to the festival."
How about,"you and I" replaces "we" and "you and me" replaces "us".

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:50 PM

I'm sure you're right Jim, but it still sounds mighty awkward to these old New England ears. I had assumed it was just accepted bad grammar brought to us by the folks who gave us "youguys." That's okay though, correcting my "gramaa" has given my son a lifetime of enjoyment.

David E.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:58 PM

I swear I remember my teacher whacking my knuckles with a ruler for saying "You and me." "You and me" may be correct but it still hurts my, umm...ears, every time I hear it.

This usage depends entirely on the rest of the sentence. Your teacher to the contrary, "you and me" can be the absolutely correct words, and such was ALWAYS so, not just in recent years.   

"He had a soft spot in his heart for you and me."   As you'd (I hope) never say ". . .in his heart for I", you should never say ". . .in his heart for you and I." The "you" doesn't change the grammar of the matter.

On the other hand, of course if we're talking about the subject of the clause, it will be "you and I": "You and I went downtown," and not "You and me went downtown."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:09 PM

Sometimes the bad grammar has been around a lot longer than the grammar. There used to be quite a fashion for trying to turn English into Latin.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:16 PM

I'm fed up of bad grammar!!!!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:23 PM

Oh shite! Grammar has come to songs and poems!   

Well, that's it, we may as well all give up and go home now, before our subjunctives begin to wither in the wind.

By the way, what IS a subjunctive? I seem to have reached near on 55 years old without bothering about it, but hey, perhaps I really need to!

Perhaps I need to find that 'Eats Shoots and Leaves' book one more time. Oh, that's right, I threw it out! Why? because in the introduction the author admitted she was more strung out by the use of inappropriate words in the media, used to describe the 9/11 disaster, than she was about the three thousand plus people who'd died.

At that point, I realised I was about to read the words of a woman who had her priorities SO wrong..and I chucked the book in the rubbish bin.


"I disagree, Georgiansilver. Grammar helps make meaning clear."


No. It is the way the singer interprets the song that makes the meaning clear..and if that singer is also the songwriter, then the meaning overrides ANY grammatical error...and to be honest, a brilliant song takes you WAY beyond grammar and into the realms of another world, where grammar was never even invented and humans judged all on emotions.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:35 PM

No holds barred when it comes to writing a good song. Tautology can work fine and well in a song also . A redundancy in prose like "fine and well" sounds rotten ,but in a song it can strenghten a meaning while supplying the necessary syllables to fit a rhymne .As in The Rising of the Moon which contains the lines.

"I bear orders from the captain make your ready quick and soon /for the pikes must be together by the rising of the moon."

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM

The tune don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you put a couple extra syllables into a line.
It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English,
And it don't even gotta rhyme.

Excuse me: rhyne.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM

""It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never knowed
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the road

knew and road just don't rhyme.""


"A light I've never known" would work quite well though!

I'm just playing Devil's advocate with that comment.

My reading of that song is that it is couched in the kind of language I might expect to hear fom ordinary folk in many different parts of the USA, and I don't have a problem with that, any more than I would with Geordie, or Scots dialect in song.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:46 PM

I would far rather stick to the rhythm and rhyme and forgoe the grammar than the other way around. mg

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

When I read the title, I groaned. Since when is painstakingly correct grammar expected in folksong?

But then I read the first two posts, and agreed completely that those particular examples are cringeworthily awful. Of course, those examples are contemporary (or, at least, recently written) songs ~ not authentically traditional lyrics voicing the informal speech of real people. Nor even plausible down-home diction created by a modern lyricist (like Dylan's "I never knowed," which always seemed OK-enough to me).

"The world in which we live in" has always bugged the hell out of me, too. Amos' suggestion that McCartney is "really" singing "in which we're living" doesn't hold water, much as I wish it did. Even allowing for differences of dialect, the requisite "R" sound just isn't there in his recording. Now, if I were ever to sing this song, I would "adapt" it by using Amos' brilliant little revision. Too bad Paul didn't think of it before he published and recorded. (Since it was a movie theme, perhaps he was working under undue deadline pressure...?)

And as for believing that "you and I" is always correct, and "you and me" always wrong? I've encountered that myself; it's the kind of phony snobbery also seen when people use big words without knowing their actual meaning. If our friend's schoolteacher actually taught him that (i.e., if it was not a misunderstanding on his part), it's a real shame, especially since no subsequent instructor ever set him straight (until the above explanations emerged on this thread). Just goes to prove that even in New England, ignorance is not unknown. (Of course, it may be that, in New England, there is undue societal pressure to pretend that one is more erudite than is actually the case.)

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:24 PM

can we establish once and for all that McCartney did not write

"In this ever changing world in which we live in" ...

He wrote

"IF this ever changing world in which we live in
(makes you give up and cry)

Admittedly, it still jars a bit, but nothing like to the extent which it would have done with three "in's"

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Bupkes
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:32 PM

If the original grammar is noticeably wrong and grates, I feel free to change it. After all, I'm a "folk" too.

But if the "correct" grammar sounds stilted or just doesn't work, then I'll sing the original.

For example, in Rod MacDonald's "A Sailor's Prayer" (here's an author-approved text), the chorus line

"I will not lie me down, this rain a-ragin' "

just doesn't work with "lay me down"; the original sounds good, wrong grammar and all, so I sing it that way.

But the last verse (in which "death waits just off the bow"), with awkward wording, seems to me such an artless mess, I sing it differently every time, and no one seems much bothered. (And if anyone did notice, I'd tell them what I did, of course.) Mostly, the verses are an excuse to sing the lovely chorus, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:35 PM

Amos: You're right, listening closely I hear the line is "But if this ever-changing world in which we're livin' / Makes you..."
That makes more sense than with three in's, one clearly redundant; someone pointed it out to me the other way, and I stupidly took it on faith. Memorable music, but the lyrics always seemed tossed-off, another melange of half-songs. The phrase "in which we're livin'" still sticks out as a silly tautology: where else would we be living?

Betsy: It could be "in which we live" or "we live in" (with a dangling preposition), but "in which we live in" is clearly improper: one would not say "We live in in the world".

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM

what McCartney sings , and has always sung is

"If this ever changing world in which we live in"

not " in this ever changing world ..."

and not " ... in which we're living ".

I agree that "If this ever changing world in which we're living" would have been less egregious, but that's not what Macca wrote or sung.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:32 PM

Lizzie: Eats, Shoots and Leaves is, IMO, a brilliant book, both highly entertaining and informative. Although Ms Truss may appear overly concerned with punctuation--as any serious writer should be; it's there for a reason--she's really a pragmatist discussing punctuation for the same reason we're discussing grammar in this thread: because awkward or improper usage confuses or distracts rather than clarifies. Her advice includes a healthy dose of irreverence toward punctuation rules; ultimately, her concern is clarity, not fastidiousness.

The more attention a writer pays to crafting his language, the less noticeable the effort should appear in the end result: attention should flow unencumbered to the sense and the manner of expression, not to jarring side issues. Nor should the reader or listener need to mentally back up to puzzle out the meaning. There's a difference between idiomatic usage (which aids in creating character and place) and bad grammar (which just throws you like a rodeo bull).

I must agree with Truss: the modern habit of dispensing with punctuation hinders rather than aids communication. Out of respect for your audience, you shouldn't omit punctuation--or capitalization--any more than you should speak in a monotone. Punctuation is the written counterpart of inflection; use it well.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: oldhippie
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

I always thought part of the charm of a song are its expressions. For instance, in Tom T Hall's "Old Dogs and Children and Watermelon Wine", there's the line: "Women think about theyselves when men folk ain't around". It would not sound correct with proper grammar. I agree with those who invoke poetic / artistic license in this discussion.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: robinia
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 08:48 PM

Sometimes "cleaning up the grammar" really ruins the song.    Singing "if I were a mole in the ground, I'd root that mountain down" (instead of "if I'se a mole in the ground . . .")   Honest, I heard someone sing it like that;

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:56 AM

"I bear orders from the captain make your ready quick and soon /for the pikes must be together by the rising of the moon."

I believe the words are:


I bear orders from the captain,
"Make you ready quick and soon,
For the pikes must be together by the rising of the moon."

What's wrong with that?

Quick and soon are not tautological, IMO.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 01:33 AM

If I don't like it, I don't sing it.
That attitude makes my repertoire poorer than it could be, makes me avoid some nearly (IMO) great modern songs, because the grammar grates on my sensibilities. My loss.

I understand why PHJim posed the question.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:14 AM

I think that most times, language can be grammatical without being ridiculous, so I think it's a good idea to follow the rules of grammar whenever possible. There are certain grammatical errors you can get away with when writing lyrics, and other errors just make the songwriter look stupid.

"For you and I," "between you and I," and anything written by Neil Diamond fall into the latter category.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:40 AM

It's not a matter of "bad" grammar; it's simply a matter of whether you speak/sing (or claim to speak/sing) in Standard English or not. I generally use the same grammar when I sing as when I speak. I therefore sing "She swum and she swum...." (Marrowbones) rather than the usual "She swam and she swam..." because I don't naturally use the word "swam". In the same way, I sing "And the blackbirds and thrushes sung from every green spray.." because it comes naturally to me to sing it that way.

Were I singing a song where, for example, the word "swam" was used to rhyme with, say, "ham", then I would make the effort to sing "swam" in order to preserve the rhyme.

As for "between you and I", that's not, to the best of my knowledge, a non-standard or dialectal form; it's just hypercorrection!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:56 AM

""'I will not lie me down, this rain a-ragin'""

As I read that line, Marty, I believe the grammar is essentially correct.

I lie down, but I lay down my burden.

I don't see that the addition of the "me" in this case alters that, since the composer is not saying that he has picked himself up, and is now laying himself down again.

Since "lay down is what you do to something you are carrying, I think the word "me" is added for scansion purposes only, and I would not find it difficult to live with.

Now, of course, twenty people will tell us why that is wrong.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

'Between you & I' is indeed a solecism, since 'between, as a preposition, takes the accusative. But there is, alas, respectable Bardic precedent for it: Antonio's letter to Bassanio, Merchant of Venice III ii, "... all debts are cleared between you and I if I might but see you at my death." It must be all right if it's Shax, as they say ~~ but this is till a usage I avoid like the plague!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:28 AM

""It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never knowed
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the road

Or alternatively:

It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never knew
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the avenue!!

Perfick!!

Also, what's this hangup with 'You & I', why not 'I & you'??

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the avenue!!

Perfick!!

Only 'perfick' if you're happy with the scansion, as you've just added two more syllables!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:02 AM

I think the 'you and I' in the Olympic song is downright embarrassing. It's not dialect or idiom. It's quite simply a common misunderstanding. As someone has mentioned, at school we had 'you and I' drummed into us to stop us saying 'you and me did something', but the correct use of 'you and me' was often left out.

Another one that always makes me cringe is that song which seems to misquote Kipling by saying 'the female of the species is more deadlier than the male'.   Yuk.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: masato sakurai
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:48 AM

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need a body cry ?

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:14 AM

POOR GRAMMAR IN LYRICS!!!
More to the point is the discraceful lack of grammar and appalling spelling to be found and, it would seem, tolerated on MUDCAT. May I recommend a refresher course in English language for all those who have forgotten what they were taught at school. If children are leaving school with such low standards of written English what hope is there?
An absolute abomination. They could do better with a little effort.!!