BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:15 AM

Rag, I have not relied on any cut and paste.
I provided a link to a complete and recent article on the rising by an eminent Irish historian, with an extract in my post.

What is wrong with that Rag?

Jim, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, which we have, and not to attack the poster as Rag has just done, but only to challenge what is posted, which Rag has failed to do.

Have a word with him, not me.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM

"im, the only warning was to keep the discussion polite, "
We've finished here - we probably did in 2014 - you failed to make your case then, you are still doing so now.
There really is no point.
If you have a point to make, make it and stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.
You have just been given exatly what happening in July 1916 and you coose to ignore it
"There was no foot dragging."
We are no cluttering up a decent discussion.
Please stop.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

Raggytash, none of which backs up your completely inaccurate and incorrect statement about the infra structure in Ireland. the vast majority of the infra structure in ireland was built by the british , this includes the rail network and the canal system,and most of the road system.
the irish pulled up sections of the rail system at the same time as BEECHING ,INCLUDING THE RAIL SYSTEM IN WEST CORK.The EU HAS DONE NOTHING TO REPLACE THE BUTCHERED RAIL SYSTEM.
they have spent a small amount of money on the road system regardless of destroying a national heritage site, often ill advised and badly spent too, for example straightening out roads and destroying bends immediately before 30 mph limits][ example entrance to Ballydehob], encouraging motorists to go faster and yet putting up signs for them to go slower, the result of this is revenue for the garda in speeding fines.
Europe is now collecting our motor tax, and using that money to pay back a debt, no european money is being spent on maintaining our victorian british water mains, or sewer sytem, or repairing massive pot holes on minor and major roads.
Raggy tash your commmnnts are illinformed and inaccurate, europe has done little for an infra structure that was built by the British prior to 1914, NOTHING FOR THE RAILWAYS THE WATER SYSTEM SEWAGE SYSTEM , VERY LITTLE FOR THE CANAL SYSTEM AND NOT MUCH FOR THE ROADS.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:50 AM

stop repeating things that have been proven wrong over and over again.

If that is true Jim, state one!

displays a profound ignorance of history.

By the historians Greg?

Heather Jones, an associate professor in international history at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

"The third clear problem involved in commemorating the Rising is the rather thorny fact that the militants who seized Dublin in 1916 had no democratic mandate. The last election before the Rising saw the vast majority of nationalist constituencies elect Home Rule candidates, in support of the campaign of the Irish Parliamentary Party at Westminster for devolved government for Ireland within the United Kingdom. The majority of the nationalist population was satisfied with the passing of the home rule bill in 1912; it was due for implementation pending the end of the first world war. Even within the ranks of republicanism, the Rising was carried out by a small minority. "

"Ultimately, it is the fact that the 1916 Rising represents an endorsement of violence that is deeply problematic for modern Irish sensibilities, and which has been the subject of a great deal of debate in the press. Despite intelligence monitoring, the rebels' separatist violence came out of the blue. It was also extreme: they shot unarmed Catholic Irish policemen without warning. The public discourse around the centenary has increasingly emphasised the fact that the Rising caused considerable civilian casualties: 40 children died in the Easter Rising, a statistic long forgotten until the recent publication of a history by the broadcaster Joe Duffy.[2] In fact, civilians, many of them caught in the crossfire, made up the majority of the 450 rebellion dead, along with 132 soldiers and police and 62 rebels."
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/commemorating-the-rising-history-democracy-and-violence-in-ireland

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:24 PM

Yes Hilo I can.

Try "Irish Histories for Dummies" and no I am not being sarcastic.

As an introduction to Irish History it is really not a bad starting point. It will give you much more of an insight than any of the cut and pastes from contributors here.

The book catalogue number is ISBN 0-7645-7040-4

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:27 PM

As was the case with The Famine up to the 150th anniversary, there have been in fact very few books specifically about the reasons for the Easter Rising - (plenty of eye-witness accounts and personal experiences), for various reasons, though there is not a history of the 20th century that does not give it pride of place as a great event in the creation of an independent Ireland.
This anniversary is proving the turning point.
Incidentally, as pointed out by Joe Duffy and other, the majority of children who died during Easter week, did so because of indiscriminate British bombardment and crossfire.
It is interesting to note that the youngest soldier to be killed in W.W.1. was aged 14 - he enlisted at 13 - he was from County Waterford, it's apparently OK to die for the Empire, but not for Ireland.
Had the uprising not taken place it would be quite likely that many of the children who died during the fighting might well have reached the age where they could have been conscripted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

I am offering this synopsis of the lead up to the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916 at Joe Offer's request.
In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish.
Many, many times during those eight centuries the Irish took up arms to assert their right to self determination. Each insurrection was brutally surpressed and aggressive laws were enacted by the Crown to coerce the Irish into submission. With the failure of the 1798 Rebellion, the Irish parliament was abolished and Ireland was ruled directly from London
With the supression of the Fenian Rising in 1867 some of the leaders began to focus on political agitation rather than armed revolt, and one of the key demands was for Ireland's parliament to be re-established and for Ireland to return to Home Rule.
HOME RULE BILL
After the 1910 British General Election the Irish Parliamentary Party led by John Redmond, held the balance of power in the House of Commons and their price for supporting the Liberals in government was a Home Rule Bill. The Liberals conceded and Home Rule for Ireland was to become law in 1914.
RELIGIOUS DIVIDE
The 1911 census of population for Ireland records that 73% were Catholic and 24% were Protestant and while it would be simplistic and wrong to suggest that all Catholics were for Home Rule and all Protestants against. it would be fair to say. in general. that support for the Home Rule was very high amongst Catholics, but was opposed by the majority of Protestants (especially so in Ulster).
ULSTER VOLUNTEER FORCE
For many Ulster unionists Home Rule was regarded as being tantamount to Rome Rule. Carson and Craig, leaders of the unionists, organised a campaign in opposition to the Bill and called for a volunteer militia force of Orangemen and Unionists pledged to resist Home Rule in arms if necessary. In early 1912 the Ulster Volunteers Force was formed and in short time grew to 100,000 men. It was the avowed aim of this force to resist by every means including armed revolt any attempt by their government to enact Home Rule for Ireland.
CURRAGH MUTINY
In early 1914 intelligence services reported that the UVF were plotting to seize arms and ammunition from the arsenal in Carrickfergus. In March when it became apparent that the government was about to order the army to intervene sixty British Officers at the Curragh Camp (the main base for the British Army in Ireland) threatened to resign their commissions if they were ordered to take action against the UVF. This threat forced the Secretary of State for War, Col Seely, to guarantee that the army would not be used in Ulster. The position that the officers involved were not guilty of mutiny is an argument based on semantics in that it contends that they threatened to resign BEFORE they had received a direct order to act against the UVF.
LARNE GUN-RUNNING
In late April 1914 the UVF smuggled 25,000 rifles and 4 million rounds that they had procurred from the German Empire into Larne. The military and civic authoritys were aware of the landing, but took no action against the gun-runners.

The failure on the parts of the British establishment including; the cabinet, the military high-command, the civil authorities and the police to take any steps to curtail the illegal actions of the UVF was what brought nationalists to the realization that Home Rule would not be won without a fight.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:35 PM

Thanks Fergie.
Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.

Neither Fergie, Greg, Rag or Jim have identified any error in anything I have posted, resorting to personal attack instead.

Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street.
They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:43 PM

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:48 PM

Canal system?? What century do you think we are living in ?

Canals are a relic of a bygone age, great for taking a holiday on, I've enjoyed cruising on them myself, as a means to transport goods and services ....................... !?!?
you really are displaying you ignorance, canals are one of the most efficient forms of transportation, slow, but efficient as regarding the amount that can be transported in relation to fuel cost.
but let us put that aside for one moment, here are two other arguments why canal infra structure should be maintained for the tourist industry, and as a means of alleviating flooding and diverting water after very heavy rainfall.
however European money has not been used for that nor for railways or any other infra structure, with the exception of a few ill
advised road projects.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, why do you say that the British fire was indiscriminate?
Because it was by all reports - including eye witnesses,. do you have any information that it wasn't?
"The heavy civilian casualties resulted from the rebels choosing to fight from heavily populated and overcrowded residential areas like North King Street."
Where does that come from?
You'll have to drop Joe Duffy a line and let him know
Have you not seen the photographs and film showing the devastation caused by the artillery fire in the centre of Dublin - hardly from rifle fire.
"1916 RISING 19 images Created 18 Nov 2015

The Easter Rising was a rebellion carried out by separatist republican groups demanding Irish independence in April 1916, in the midst of the First World War. Most of the fighting took place in Dublin, where the insurgents seized a number of buildings. The British authorities, fearing the prospect of German involvement in the rebellion, bombarded central Dublin and the rebellion was crushed after six days. Much of Dublin's central commercial districts were destroyed by a combination of artillery, and fires caused by both the British bombardment and looters. These images form a record of the devastation in the immediate aftermath of the rebellion."

Independent Archives
"They also put children in harms way by using them as couriers."
As did the resistance during World War II and every other resistance movement throughout history trying to chagne society.
While Easter week was going on millions of young men were dying in the bloodbath of Europe - not to mention the civilians being slaughtered
Where are you getting all this from Keith?
"Well, Greg, you have not been there and done that."
Have you - you tell us where we can go for information
"You have presented no facts"
Have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM

Keith,

You state

"Nothing in that challenges a single thing that I have said.", so I take it that you agree with the statement in my synopsis
"In 1171 Henry II King of England declared himself Lord of Ireland. From that time until the Good Friday agreement was ratified by referenda in 1998 the claims of England/Britain to rule any part of Ireland was never freely conceded by the Irish."
It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists.

Fergus

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:25 PM

"However, you have challenged information presented by others."
What information?
Ask them where they get their information?
How about responding to what Fergie has just put up?
"Jim, I have not made any disparaging comments on facts presented by others"
'Fraid you have - and put nothing up yourself other than a blanket blessing for the only two people on this thread who have taken their line.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 09:23 PM

HiLo, I'm tempted to say that if you cannot contribute information to a thread, then you have no business posting or criticizing those who have posted. Arguments about the right or wrong conduct of posters, make no contribution to the discussion.
I said above that I learned most of what I know from the 1976 Leon Uris novel Trinity, and its 1995 sequel Redemption. These novels follow Fergie's outline very closely. Come to think of it, I've read quite a bit more about Irish history, mostly fiction. I suppose I've learned most of the history I know from novels, and I think that's not a bad thing. Keith asks why I thought the Uris novels gave a balanced view, and I'm not sure I would say they are balanced. I'd say they present a valid perspective, but there are many valid perspectives of this issue. The Uris novels presented what some people thought and felt during these momentous events, and they presented these thoughts and feelings very effectively.
The participants in this thread have presented a variety of perspectives. Most of them are valid, although some may not be popular.

Jim says that the Uris novels are romanticized, but I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support - and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It's a matter of believing in our causes so we can bring about improvement, balanced with an understanding of other perspectives so we can learn to work together to accomplish something by peaceful consensus instead of by bitter conflict.

I've read lots and lots of novels by Uris, Michener, Ken Follett, Wouk, and by many others who write in a historical context. I tend to stay awake better reading novels, than I do reading history texts. And I think that novels do a better job of presenting what's in the minds and hearts of participants in historical events.

But no, learning history through novels will never make me a scholar. Greg and I, being Americans, are better off being in a learning mode in a thread like this one.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:40 AM

Fergie, I do know that England has been involved in Ireland for centuries.
Nothing in your piece challenges or contradicts anything said by me.

Jim, Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence?
I am shocked that you defend the use of children.
Are you denying that the rebels fought from crowded residential areas like North King's Street?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:04 AM

history is generally written by the victors,or in the case of opposing countries those that consider them selves victors
often the same incident is interpreted differently in different countries here is an example, my nephew started school in england and learned that the english won certain battles against the french, he continued his education in france and learned that according to french historians the french won those same battles.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:20 AM

"I would submit that most of us tend to romanticize the causes we support "
I agree entirely Joe - but it doesn't alter the fact that, when we do we tend to deal in our own personal emotions rather than facts.
I'm a sucker for historical novels - have read all the Sansom novels on English history and await the next anxiously, loved the Walter Macken trilogy on the Irish struggle, Liam O'Flaherty's 'Famine' still makes me seethe with anger.... but these are for emotional stimulation, not quotable facts.
That is what I feel about the Uris novels I have read (not just his Irish ones).
I remember presenting some facts about Irish Traveller origins on this forum and being accused of getting them from 'Ireland's Own' - not helpful in a discussion, and certainly not in an argument.
I would have no hesitation in recommending Peter De Rosa's 'Rebels' to anybody who wishes to dip their toe into 'Easter Week' - good history 'factionally' presented with flaws and not grounds for detailed argument.
As enjoyable and generally informative as these books are, they are not history proper; I would no more rely on them for detail than I would rely on Howard Fast's 'Last Frontier' or 'Freedom Road' for your history, though both are among my favourite books.
It's not the job of the novelist to present a 'balanced' picture, but on the other hand, historians can be just as unbalanced in their approach in what the choose to present or ignore, though not quite as unbalanced as some who quote them, (that's not a comment on anybody here, just a general observation on how history is constantly misused to feed agendas).
As I said earlier, there are very few books dealing specifically with Easter Week, not to the depth the subject requires - it's usually included as part of something else.
Hopefully, this anniversary will change that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:43 AM

"Saw a sikin for the first time yesterday in our back garden.
Collared doves, usually four (with the most boring though evocative calls) are regular visitor.
Robin's and wrens nest in the few bushed around the garden.
You can set your clock to the herons heading home each night.
Blue, great and goldfinches abound along with the extremely eccentric wagtails.
Look forward to the swallows (they've been sighted in our neighbouring counties of Galway and Kerry, but not made it to Clare yet).
Was delighted to see a sparrowhawk once perched on a fence about six feet from our window, but it didn't stop me shooing it off (unfortunately, not before it snatched a sparrow)
Autumn will bring the spectacular displays of starlings filling our sky and stopping the traffic.
Not too bad for a part of Ireland with no trees!
We're dealing with a bereavement at present - a hedgehog has crawled onto our pile of cut grass and died (think it's dead - will give it a few days in case it's still hibernating)
Saw (or rather, heard) two of them having it off at the back of the house one night - no shame!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:09 AM

How do hedgehogs mate?









Very carefully!

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:21 AM

Whoops sorry - went to the wrong thread.
"Artillery was used but was it indiscriminate? Any evidence"
The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.
This quote from the 'Irish History on Line'
"Fearghal makes the point that it was the British who were responsible for the atrocities that we know about, such as the killing of 15 civilians on North King Street and the shooting of civilians in Portobello Barracks as well as the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns. But both he and Padraig also make the point that the clumsiness of the British military was as much a product of their shock and disorientation at the Rising as any malice."   
I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.
I do not "defend" the use of children - I merely point out that it is a consequence of this type of warfare and was used in wartime France both by French resistance Fighters and Britons parachuted in to support them - and every other conflict involving irregular and guerrilla tactics.
The rebels had no choice in where they fought - it was a desperately unequal battle and they did what they could.
What should they have done - rolled up their sleeves and challenged the army to a head to head in Phoenix Park
The rape, torture murder and mass destruction that took place by British troops in the Black and Tan period is carved into Irish history - that was within five years of the Easter Week Uprising
This town was one of three on this coast that was set fire to and pillaged in revenge for the Rineen Ambush, Lahinch and Ennistimon being the other two - you question this, go look it up.
Virtually the first act carried out by the Tans when they landed was the burning of heavily populated Cork City.
More than 40 business premises, 300 residential properties, City Hall and the Carnegie Library were destroyed by fire. Over £3 million worth of damage (1920 value; €172 millon in today's money) was done, 2,000 were left jobless and many were left homeless.
Now - where did your "facts" come from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 04:25 AM

how are the wagtails eccentric, jim
how are they unconventional and slightly strange, do your wagtails sing like cuckoos?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM

"how are they unconventional and slightly strange,"
Have you ever watched them Dick - lovely eccentric birds - always remind me of John Gielgud, can't think why
Sorry - I posted this on the bird thread then inadvertently here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:30 AM

The dozens of statements of eye witness evidence - the massive damage that was done, the weapons used - even the Gunboat Helga firing shells from the Liffey - these can only be used 'indiscriminately' in the hope they might hit their target.

Not true Jim. There is no evidence of indiscriminate fire that I can find. You clearly know of none either.

" Subsequently the Helga II gained an undeserved reputation for playing an essential part in the Rising. (Most of the damage to Dublin's city centre was caused by fire, particularly at premises like the Irish Times warehouse and Hoyte's Druggists and Oil Works, rather than by shelling.)"

"On 25 April 1916 the Helga sailed from Dún Laoghaire to shell Boland's mill, and on the following day fired over the loop line railway bridge at Liberty Hall. In total the Helga fired only 40 rounds during the Rising, "
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/

"The log of the 'Helga' is rather succinct: "26 April. Proceeded up River. Stopped near Custom House. Opened fire on 'Liberty Hall' in conjunction with Military. Fired 24 rounds (8.00 am)."

"At the same time, British Army gunners had moved an 18-pounder field gun from Trinity College. They set up by the south quays by Butt Bridge at Tara Street, and proceeded to shell Liberty Hall as well. They had only shrapnel shells. These did not contain high explosive and would have the effect of a glorified but high-velocity cannon-ball."
http://www.theirishstory.com/2016/03/24/the-helga-and-the-shelling-of-liberty-hall/#.VxdkofkrKt8

No suggestion of indiscriminate shelling here either.http://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/the-easter-rising-and-destruction-of-dublin

"Homes and businesses across the city were damaged by shelling of key rebel garrisons and widespread looting."
http://www.thejournal.ie/british-pathe-footage-dublin-1916-easter-rising-2683266-Mar2016/

Nothing to suggest indiscriminate British fire.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:37 AM

I suppose the Irish did all this with their rifles.


Dublin Damage 1916

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM

No Rag.
The rebels fortified buildings, and the British shelled them.
Buildings fell and burned.
If you have any evidence of indiscriminate British fire, produce it.

If you look at and read my links you will find that there was none.
Why not do that?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:06 AM

the indiscriminate use of 'area fire' weapons like artillery and heavy machine guns.

Artillery and machine guns were fired directly at rebel positions.
They were not used as area weapons. (Why no link Jim?)

I asked you where you got your "facts' - reply, came there none.

Do you not use the links I provide?

The rebels had no choice in where they fought -

Rubbish. No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend.
It was entirely their choice, and they mostly chose residential areas.
They did not change their positions during the rising.

Why have you switched to the "Tans?" We are discussing the Rising. I have made no comment on anything else.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM

This becomes ridiculous
You scoop the net for a few minutes and disprove all the photographic evidence, all the eye-witness accounts accounts and everything that has appeared on our screens over the last few months.
The indiscriminate destruction is both obvious and well confirmed in Irish history and largely unchallenged.
I asked where you get your information (having already made your claims) so you hastily scurry around and come up with - well nothing really.
You've seen the damage that was not done by rifle fire, you know the weapons that can not be used in any way other than indiscriminately.
There is no reason to think the army did not act in any other way than described that is the way the responded to opposition to British rule.
You have been diven the details of the razing of Cork City and to the behaviour of the troops in Clare. - you choose not to comment.
You have attempted to denigrate the centenary we are celebrating here in Ireland with smoke and mirrors and the usual jingoism.
Where are you getting your information on for any of this apart from your lightning visits to the net?
Regarding the Home Rule Treaty, which you claim to have been signed sealed and delivered, I was re-reading Robert Kee's impressive, 'Ourselves Alone', volume three of his trilogy, 'The Green Flag'.
The agreement was that six counties would be partitioned till the end of the war, when a period of one year would be given to arrange for complete unification.
The new agreement, which Redmond and his fellow Parliamentarians rejected was for permanent partition.   
This is how Kee described the state of the Treaty in July, following the Uprising.
The Treaty was nothing like agreed to at the time of The Risisng.   
I have no doubt you will ignore this as you have everything else that has been put up.
Robert Kee is a British Historian who is an acknowledged expert on Irish political history.
Jim Carroll
"Though Carson stuck loyally to his new position, a massive opposition to the whole scheme for putting Home Rule into operation at all was now mounted by the English Conservative Party and many of its leaders inside the coalition cabinet. 'They are all in it, ' Lloyd George wrote disarmingly to Dillon, 'except Balfour, Bonar Law and F. E. Smith. Long has behaved in a specially treacherous manner. He has actually been engaged clandestinely in trying to undermine the influence of Carson in Ulster.... He told them there was no war urgency, no prospect of trouble in America I could not think it possible that any man, least of all one with such pretensions of being an English gentleman, could have acted in such a way. '48
But Lloyd George, without any such pretensions, was hardly acting better and both doubtless were doing what they thought best. Long had many other English gentlemen to support him. Lord Selborne at least resigned from the cabinet at the prospect of having to be a party to the immediate implementation of Home Rule. Bonar Law had to bow before the Conservatives of the Carlton Club, who were unable to give him their support for the proposals. On 11 July Lord Lansdowne, another member of the cabinet, finally forced Lloyd George's hand when he stated in the House of Lords that in his view any proposed alteration to the Act of 1914 would be 'permanent and enduring'. 49"

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:30 AM

You have given no eye witness report of indiscriminate fire.
Here is the YMCA Sackville Street.
Notice that the gunners did not just shoot at the building, but at the windows where the rebels fired from.
(first pic)https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easter+rising+dublin+ymca&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=685&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3xJemp

Here is the Liberty Hall, shelled by both Helga and 18pdr artillery.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easter+rising+dublin+liberty+hall&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=685&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKE

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:33 AM

"(Why no link Jim?)"
Because I named the source and am not in the habit of making things up, but there you go.
History on line (again)
"Do you not use the links I provide?"
All your "evidence has been an afterthought subsequently dug out to support former claims.
"No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend."
They were a heavily outnumbered force who knew they were probably doomed to failure - their choice of venue was somewhere that would make te most impact.
Why did British soldiers choose to burn Cork City or Miltown Malbay or Lahinch or Ennistimon - that was a deliberate act of destruction and murder.
I have not "switched to the Tans - I was using the period to compare how the different groups of fighters behaved - both involved the behavior of British soldiers being used to suppress Irish independence and both were aspects of the Irish War of Independence.
You criticise one yet ignore the other - why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:36 AM

I have no doubt you will ignore this as you have everything else that has been put up.

I have made no case about events after the Rising.

My case was that the rising was not wanted by the people, and I have shown that to be true.
My case was that the rising was unnecessary and pointless because home rule had already been agreed.
I showed that was true also.

You have been unable to challenge or contradict either.

I challenged your claim that the British fired indiscriminately.
You have failed to substantiate that claim.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:39 AM

their choice of venue was somewhere that would make te most impact.

So you acknowledge the accuracy of my statement, "No-one told them which buildings to occupy and defend."

They chose overcrowded, residential areas with the inevitable consequence of mass casualties.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:41 AM

Here's some reading for you Keith about the Black & Tans. You will note in the section marked "Legacy" it refers to the War Crimes of the Black & Tans.

Black & Tans

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:14 AM

"My case was that the rising was not wanted by the people"
We have no idea that this was the case - those in Dublin who protested represented a tiny minority of Dubliners.
There were in fact plans for risings to take place elsewhere whih were botched, but Irish peole had been fighting for independence for centuries - the demand was ongoing.
Even those who supported the war did so because they believed it would bring independence - the Robert Kee passage (which you, of course have ignored) proved that this was not the case and they changed their minds when British brutality was demonstrated (no out of sympathy for the martyrs, but as a reaction to Britain with the mask off)
Within a matter of months the country was up in arms fighting for Britain to get out of Ireland.
Yopu respond to the devastation of British mortar fire with a few antiseptic pictures of your own and no comment.
They did not "choose" a residential area - they chose the main building of the main thoroughfare in Dublin city because that was where it would make the most effective statement - It was a demand for independence, not an attempt to kill people or destroy property - they occupied buildings as a gesture.
The indiscriminate destruction has been demonstrated by the photographs and is to be found in the many photographs - a few of which you have been given and choose to ignore.
I think we're finished here, don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:34 AM

Not sure why this thread stayed above the line? Surely time for it to head to the home of blindfolded argument?

Regards

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

I think that I'd like to learn the various perspectives on the Easter Rising. I'm sure there was a variety of opinions among the British and the Irish, and I think it's important for us to understand those perspectives. I think a lot of Americans sing Irish rebel songs without knowing their context. A thread like this should present that context, from all sides - not try to prove which side was right (or which Mudcatter was right).
I'll edit out or move the off-topic posts once this discussion dies down, but I do think it's important for us to have a discussion of the Easter Rising on the centennial of the event. I don't see value in having two threads on this topic, one combative and one non-combative.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:10 PM

"I'll edit out or move the off-topic posts once this discussion dies down,"
Finished with this particular spat as far as I'm concerned Joe - sorry to have bogged it down again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:16 PM

I will not discuss anything but the Rising here.
My case is that it was unwanted and unnecessary.

Unwanted.
"Why Was The Easter Rising So Unpopular" by John Gibney, currently Glasnevin Trust Professor of Public History and Cultural Heritage at Trinity College Dublin.

" Many of the insurgents who fought in 1916 recorded the hostility of the families of serving soldiers across the city (some went so far as to say that their British captors had saved them from angry mobs)."

"Alongside this was the fact that the Rising had caused massive death and destruction, and disrupted everyday life in the city; Oscar Traynor recalled how he and his fellow Volunteers were accused by one irate Dubliner of being 'starvers of the people'. Hostility to the Rising on these various grounds was inevitable, and surely understandable"

"Condemnation of the Rising spread far beyond the city in which the vast bulk of the fighting took place."
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/just-why-was-the-easter-rising-so-unpopular-34563527.html

Heather Jones, associate professor in international history at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

"Heather Jones traces how this failed military insurrection against British rule – mounted by a small, unrepresentative minority of Irish republicans – "

"The majority of the nationalist population was satisfied with the passing of the home rule bill in 1912;"

"Even within the ranks of republicanism, the Rising was carried out by a small minority. "
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/commemorating-the-rising-history-democracy-and-violence-in-ireland

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 12:39 PM

Keith,
In response to my last comment you replied "Fergie, I do know that England has been involved in Ireland for centuries.
Nothing in your piece challenges or contradicts anything said by me."

This is what my piece said
"It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

Do you agree with this statement?

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Mpdette
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM

No, Keith,

You're incorrect.

If there hadn't been a Rising then you Brits wouldn't have responded so heavy-handedly to it. Executing its leaders, especially a man who could not stand up, was a huge mistake and enhanced the Republican cause more than the Rising itself could ever have done.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:08 PM

See you in 2017!

Regards

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 02:39 PM

Fergie,
"It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland and the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation. They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

Do you agree with this statement?

No I do not.
Bad things happened everywhere to everyone hundreds of years ago.
The Irish people wanted home rule but did not feel victims of "aggressive and oppressive subjugation."
The rising was deeply unpopular and unwanted, as I have shown.

Mpdette,
Executing its leaders, especially a man who could not stand up, was a huge mistake and enhanced the Republican cause more than the Rising itself could ever have done.

I agree.
Had they just been locked up they would have continued to be seen as a contemptible joke.
The rising would have been forgotten, and a transition to full home rule would have been peacefully achieved and not one day later.

Thousands of Irish lives spared.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

"Thousands of Irish lives spared."
Except the ones that would have been forcibly conscripted to fight in W.W.1.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:52 PM

Jim, from some angles, it does seem that the 1916 Easter Rising was a waste. To much of the world, it appeared that the Irish had a fair amount of self-determination already, and that they were going to have Home Rule within a very short period of time. The Rising resulted in the execution of the best and brightest of Irish leadership, and that was indeed a tragedy. One could argue that the British had no need to execute those men, and that is true; but one could also argue credibly that the Irish had no need to sacrifice their best leaders. At the very least, it seems that the Easter Rising was poor strategy.

Up above, somebody made an argument that I hadn't heard quite that way before - that the Rising was necessary to stem opposition to Home Rule from within Ireland. There's certainly credibility there - there certainly were some Irish who opposed Home Rule and worked to undermine it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:25 PM

most of the songs are were written from the irish point of view imo quite understandably, very few from the english point of view.
i mean who in their right mind would write a song which went like this, we occupied a country that didnt belong to us,we sent soldiers who were not fighting in the first world war and who were only prepared for trench warfare, not guerilla warfare, who did not know where they were going until they realised they were heading westwards instead of to france, who had no idea they would be fired upon when arriving in dublin, who had no idea there was about to be an easter rising. why not, you ask, because it would show how unprepared and incompetent the glorious british empire was,now do you understand why there were no songs from the british point of view , because it would illustrate how incompetent and unprepared they were, no glory n that is there

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Fergie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:33 PM

Thank you Keith for your straight answer,

Which part of my statement do you not agree with;

1) It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland

2) the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation.

3) They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:08 AM

"Jim, from some angles, it does seem that the 1916 Easter Rising was a waste."
Keith has just demonstrated perfectly in his contempt for the Irish people and their achievements why it was not.
Ireland is at present celebrating the major step in achieving independence - it will spend the rest of the year in discussing, examining and celebrating what Keith has just described as "a contemptible joke" - that sums up Britain's attitude to Ireland and to anybody who dared to challenge the Empire's authority
then perfectly and in writing what he did, it sums up the Empire Loyalsts' hatred and contempt of their former subjects now.
Would you accept that The Boston Tea Party of 1771 "a contemptible joke"?
Within three months of the Rising Britain had about turned on the Home Rule Bill and added a clause that would guarantee Ireland a century of division, inequality, unrest and bloodshed which has lasted to the present day - permanent partition.
That's how definite The Home Rule Bill was.
Keith has not responded to that fact.
Had the rising not taken place, Irish youth would have been compulsorily whisked off to be slaughtered on the killing fields of Europe and, given the death toll there, would have been an unsustainable country - we had lost a third of our population to famine and enforced eviction half a century earlier, thanks to British greed and misrule.
Even as late as 1918, Britain tried to introduce enforced conscription - Easter Week had given the politicians the balls to say "no".
I have put up Lloyd George's statement about Home Rule - Keith chooses to ignore it.
If Ireland had "a fair amount of self-determination already", what was the Black and Tan Period about, or the fight for Independence, or the Civil War, or the further half century of struggle against injustice or inequality in the North, another "contemptible joke".
Easter Week not only eventually brought about Independence for Ireland, it set the Empire dominoes falling and was the beginning of the emd of the contemptible British Empire, that's how much of "a contemptible joke" it was.
I'm delighted that Keith finally came out of the closet and said what he said about Ireland and its traditions - long overdue.
I would love to be present if he came over here and told us that we are making fools of ourselves by celebrating "contemptible joke"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:12 AM

Fergie, I disagree with all three.


1) It was Britain's illegal and immoral occupation of Ireland and the aggressive and oppressive subjugation of the Irish people that was the root of the troubles in Ireland

The occupation was not seen as "aggressive and oppressive subjugation."
There was no popular movement against it.
The Irish people were happy with the peaceful progress to home rule.

2) the Irish people had every right to oppose that occupation.

They did have every right to, but they did not oppose it.

3) They did so in arms in 1916 and their right to do so does not have to be justified to historical revisionists".

No they did not. It was a tiny unrepresentative minority with no mandate from the Irish people.

Joe,
The Rising resulted in the execution of the best and brightest of Irish leadership

They were not "Irish leadership."
They had no mandate or support.
Only one had ever sought election, and came last in the ballot.
They were just self appointed hotheads.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:52 AM

Jim,
Except the ones that would have been forcibly conscripted to fight in W.W.1.

You are wrong again!
The conscription bill predated the rising.
There was never going to be conscription in Ireland, rising or no rising.

That did not stop 210 000 Irishmen joining the British Army in WW1.
By comaprison "the IRB (responsible for the rising)probably never exceeded 2,000 members"

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:58 AM

Jim, I only said that the rising was a contemptible joke, not the legitimate struggle for Irish independence.

The fact is that home rule was going to happen anyway.
The rising did nothing to hasten it.
Violence and death for no purpose.

Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 04:11 AM

"There was never going to be conscription in Ireland, rising or no rising."
The British attempted to introduce forcible conscription in 1918 - had Easter Week not happened, they would have introduced it earlier - why wouldn't they have.
"That did not stop 210 000 Irishmen joining the British Army in WW1."
And those same people turned around and kicked the world's strongest Empire out on its arse when it displayed its true nature.
I suggest you read this selectively and see why Irishmen joined up (and not just pick the bits that suit you) - it represents what all those who joined that bloodbath did - not the jingoistic claims that it was for the cause of freedom.
You were given six reasons why men (and in some cases boys) enlisted - you ignored them then and you will ignore them now.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Articlesandlecturesbyourteachingstaff/IrelandandtheFirstWorldWar/
Can't blue clickie it
I take your silence on your contempt for the Irish as confirmation
Jim Carroll