BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 12:11 PM

Finally finished the decorating !!!


Still receiving generousity, hospitality,kindness, offers of all kinds of help, loads of Guinness when we,ve been singing, the people really appreciate the musicians here.

No change from my previous experience in truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 12:24 PM

"No change from my previous experience in truth."
Not really - but you didn't expect there to be did you?
Hope you has as good a spell of weather as we did in the next county.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

Great weather for relaxing ........................ not conjucive when stuck up a ladder with a brush and a roller. Bet I,ve lost a stone this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 01:16 PM

"Bet I,ve lost a stone this week."
Have you looked carefully for it ?
Awkward going round with one stone; you know what happened to Hitler and Goebells!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

no serious researcher has ever suggested that this was ever the case,
I have quoted three historians who state unequivocally that it was.
You have produced nothing, because there is nothing for you to produce.

Keith's other star witness, Christine Kineally, said exactly the opposite,

She said exactly what I said, and I linked to the History Ireland article of hers where she said it.

Neither of you have ventured to suggest exactly what "lies" were told -

According to Kineally "nationalist myths" were taught instead of history, and according to O'Callaghan the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British propaganda."

so he now - all of a sudden - never said that the Irish people hate Britain -

I never have said that, and it is a lie to say that I have.
I have always found them warm and welcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 06:26 AM

No she didn't Keith - you first misinterpred what she said, now you are just making it up.
I examined in some detail another invention of yours yesterday - that of Prof Richardson.
The Prof. certainly did attend a convent school in Ireland where she was taught to respect Irish Republican history.
She later attended a Protestent College (Trinity) where she was taught the other side of the argument (not both sides) - she describes both influences as "two diametically opposed views.
She made her choice on consideration of those views - the current violence that was taking place at the time being a deciding factor.
However - she was not conned into thinking about joining the IRA because of her Catholic "brainwashing" as you invented.
She said she was incensed when she read about The Bloody Sunday Massacre and intended to go to Newry to join the protests there - she was prevented from doing so by her mother, who locked her in her room.
Her nearest contact with and only consideration of joining the I.R.A, was during her time in Protestant Trinity when she was invited to join the Republican Clubs there - she didn't, but she attended meetings.
Your "brainwash thing was as much invented as was your Kineally claims.
"I never have said that, and it is a lie to say that I have."
You have refused to specify which hatred was brainwashed into the Irish children, so none exists - simple as that.
You have now suggested - not identified that some must (not does) exist.
You started out saying that hatred of Britain has been passed on through generations of brainwashing - that as far as I'm concerned, is a complete U-turn.
Take care on those roads now!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 10:34 AM

No she didn't Keith - you first misinterpred what she said, now you are just making it up.

Yes she did, and here she is saying it.
Before you claim "out of context," here is the link to the whole piece.http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

"Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994)."

"...nationalist myths...Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms "

However - she was not conned into thinking about joining the IRA because of her Catholic "brainwashing" as you invented.

She said she would have joined IRA "in a heartbeat" before university opened her eyes to the truth.
She said that many who did not have the same opportunity WERE led to join.

You have refused to specify which hatred was brainwashed into the Irish children, so none exists - simple as that.

False logic Jim.
The effect on children of "indoctrination" with "anti-British propaganda" is bound to produce anti-British feelings in many if not most of them.
Do you deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

""Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994).""
That is teaching Irish history Keith and all those people were and remain national heroes and their contribution to Ireland is undisputed anywhere - unlike the British heroes like Cecil Rhodes who we were "brainwashed to admire in our schools" who are now being exposed as mercenary thugs.
If you think that anybody claims that teaching Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse if "brainwashing" - you really are off your head - I'm attending a launch of a book on the contribution of Thomas Davis to Irish history later this year - the annual RTE lectures are actually entitled the THOMAS DAVIS LECTURES
You really are round the twist.
They were not teaching lies - they were telling it as it was.
Kineally's critiscism was that it was taught without explanation.
Irish Free State 1922-35'
"1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'"
Which is exactly what I said, to which you responded "Your "description" of what you wish she said is shite."
Education changed at the end of the Free State and blame was removed from any teaching - that is what you have just confirmed with your quote.
Irishe children were never at any time taught to hate Britain - not ever - factual history did that.
Kids were taught to admire the heroes certainly - because they were heroes - but that is a million miles away from being brainwashed to hate.
You are now back to claiming that the Irish did hate Britain " is bound to produce anti-British feelings in many if not most of them."
Thought you'd denied saying that - obviously not?
"Do you deny that Jim?"
Of course I ***** deny it and will do so until you produce one single example of that hatred - you have refused to do so - you are making it up.
And you continue to lie about Richardson - to save face no doubt
There are two filmed interviews with her on the web and sever written essays - her subject is terrorism
On each, she links her contact with the IRA to Bloody Sunday.
Her "learning the truth" is basically that she accepted the Protestant version rather than the catholic one.
Truth only becomes truth when it is proven beyond dispute - or apparently, when you pair decide it is.
You have no supporters to your claims of truth.
Her "truth" is no more true than yours and as she is the only one you have been able to come up with during this argument - I know where my money goes.
You will find among her internet stuff that her 'Road to Damascus' conversion led to her views being rejected both by colleagues and friends, making her in the minority too.
You still attempt to maintain an argument long after it has been ripped to shreds - you still have no self-respect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 12:40 PM

They were not teaching lies - they were telling it as it was

"Nationalists myths are not the truth.
If taught as history they are lies.


"1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'"
Which is exactly what I said, to which you responded "Your "description" of what you wish she said is shite."

She went on to say that it never happened.
"this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms "
The schools ignored them and carried on with their "distortions."

I do not lie. I quoted exactly what was said on the programme, with a link.

The effect on children of "indoctrination" with "anti-British propaganda" is bound to produce anti-British feelings in many if not most of them.
How can you deny that obvious fact Jim?
That you do shows how closed you mind is to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM

Incidentally
This is the mythology that was taught in Irish Schools - nothing to do with teaching to hate anybody, rather it is exactly the opposite.
"The first annual report of the Department of Education highlighted the fact that the central educational aim of the Free State was 'the strengthening of the national fibre by giving the language, music, history and tradition of Ireland their natural place in the life of Irish schools'.25 Policy makers intended history to reflect a romantic but unhistorical ideal of Ireland's Gaelic past held by many Irish revolutionaries. Pearse, for example, idealised education in pagan and early Christian Ireland and argued that its character could be revived through an education of 'adequate inspiration'.26 He believed that 'a heroic tale is more essentially a factor in education than a proposition in Euclid ... what Ireland wants beyond all...is a new birth of the heroic spirit'.27"
It comes directly from one of your above references
HOLOHAN
You will not find a reference to "brainwashing children to hate", or distorting or lying or anything resembling any of these things.
Neither will you find anything in the works of Kineally though she uses this book extensively.
It points out how, after gaining independence Ireland began to imbue children to understand Ireland and no longer being a subject of Britain but an independent nation - 'The Harp without the Crown' or 'Ourselves Alone' (the literal traslation of 'Sinn Fein')
You are the only one to have suggested children were taught to hate - you have never produced a single quote of anybody making such a disgusting claim.
I hadn't realised Holohan's book is on line - I've just read it - it's extremely easy to access and understand, though I doubt if you will overcome your "disinterest" in order to do so.
On the basis of nothing that ersembles evidence you will continue to describe Ireland as a gullible, brainwashed nation - which makes yo the racist you are.
This is all yourown work not Kineally's, not Holohan's, not even Richardson's - all yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM

"This is the mythology that was taught in Irish Schools - nothing to do with teaching to hate anybody, rather it is exactly the opposite.
"The first annual report of the Department of Education highlighted the fact that the central educational aim of the Free State was 'the strengthening of the national fibre by giving the language, music, history and tradition of Ireland their natural place in the life of Irish schools'.25 Policy makers intended history to reflect a romantic but unhistorical ideal of Ireland's Gaelic past held by many Irish revolutionaries. Pearse, for example, idealised education in pagan and early Christian Ireland and argued that its character could be revived through an education of 'adequate inspiration'.26 He believed that 'a heroic tale is more essentially a factor in education than a proposition in Euclid ... what Ireland wants beyond all...is a new birth of the heroic spirit'.27"

i.e. The new Free State Government wanted and deliberately directed that instead of history they had to teach school children in the Irish Free State bullshit. By the way is this the same Pearse character who wanted one of the German Crown Princes to become King of Ireland after Germany won the First World War?

They {The Government of the newly independent Ireland} wanted "to reflect a romantic but unhistorical ideal of Ireland's Gaelic past held by many Irish revolutionaries." - In other words indoctrination = "brainwashing" a load of complete and utter codswallop - If you are going to teach history then teach F*****G History not some complete and utter prat's romantic notion of what he thought things were like.

"You will not find a reference to "brainwashing children to hate", or distorting or lying or anything resembling any of these things."

Oh no? Mr Carroll just WTF do you think the following means "to reflect a romantic but unhistorical ideal of Ireland's Gaelic past There is History pure and simple there is no such thing as romantic history and if you teach something as "history" that is "unhistorical" then you are filling the minds of children with bullshit, which is wrong. But there again the crowd who put this train wreck on the tracks somehow had to justify why under their direction Irishmen had been killing Irishmen for Irish independence for the best part of two years and they still ended up with a partitioned island because a large number of Irishmen wanted no part of their "revolutionary dream".

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:45 AM

MGM·Lion was right - and I was wrong - this thread did run and run.
I hung on because it was an opportunity to discuss a subject I am interested in and it also proved to be an example of the very worst of British rule of Ireland down the centuries distilled into two people who, whenever criicism of the British Empire has raised its ugly head, have been first on the rostrum to defend it, The Famine, WW1, Irish Independence...... these boys where there, fighting to defend the glories of the Empire
In Keith's case, Britain's continuing rule of Ireland has also been a subject worth defending, even to the point of accusing Northern Irish children of being the cause of three nights of sectarian rioting - I don't know if there is a word for hatred of Irish children - depicting them as sectarian rioters and brainwashed small humans - Eirokinderphobia maybe, but if has been displayed to the full her
The only "hate that has been proven here has been the hate of two people for the Irish nation - gullible, ignorant of their history, unworthy of independence, historically duped by foreigners for fighting for independence, guilty of a non-specified hatred, and now sneered at for not being able to throw off British rule completely - not nice people (and I don't mean the Irish).
The history of England's relationship with Ireland has been of oppression, exploration and mass-murder by the richest and most powerful Empire the world has ever seen - echoes of that Empire has resonated throughout this argument as it did with similaar arguments about present-day sectarianism and The Famine.
The only hatred proved here has been that of two people against an nation which remains, in my personal experience, peaceful, friendly and extraordinarily welcoming to strangers - I defy either of these two to prove otherwise, as neither of them have ben able to show a single shred of evidence that the Irish were "brainwashed to hate, they will not show the Irish to be other thna I have described,
I thought it might be worth finishing this often distressing (for me - obviously they have reveled in their hatred in everything Irish) argument with some of the historical quotes that have marked British rule of Ireland - this pair can proudly take their place in that history.
Then I am gone
Jim Carroll

Anti-Irish quotes throughout history
Politics.ie
They live on beasts only, and live like beasts. They have not progressed at all from the habits of pastoral living. ..This is a filthy people, wallowing in vice. Of all peoples it is the least instructed in the rudiments of the faith. They do not yet pay tithes or first fruits or contract marriages. They do not avoid incest.
- Giraldus Cambrensis/Gerald of Wales, The History and Topography of Ireland, 12th Century

How godly a deed it is to overthrow so wicked a race the world may judge: for my part I think there cannot be a greater sacrifice to God.
- Edward Barkley, describing how the forces of the Earl of Essex slaughtered the entire population of Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim, 1575

I have often said, and written, it is Famine which must consume [the Irish]; our swords and other endeavours work not that speedy effect which is expected for their overthrow.
- English Viceroy Arthur Chichester writing to Elizabeth I's chief advisor, Nov. 1601

The time hath been, when they lived like Barbarians, in woods, in bogs, and in desolate places, without politic law, or civil government, neither embracing religion, law or mutual love. That which is hateful to all the world besides is only beloved and embraced by the Irish, I mean civil wars and domestic dissensions .... the Cannibals, devourers of men's flesh, do learn to be fierce amongst themselves, but the Irish, without all respect, are even more cruel to their neighbours.
- Barnaby Rich, A New Description of Ireland, 1610

All wisdom advises us to keep this [Irish] kingdom as much subordinate and dependent on England as possible; and, holding them from manufacture of wool (which unless otherwise directed, I shall by all means discourage), and then enforcing them to fetch their cloth from England, how can they depart from us without nakedness and beggary?
- Lord Stafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in a letter to King Charles I, 1634

So ended the fairest promise that Ireland had ever known of becoming a prosperous and a happy country.
- Sir William Temple, about 1673, (the export of wool from Ireland to England was forbidden in 1660)

Ireland is like a half-starved rat that crosses the path of an elephant. What must the elephant do? Squelch it - by heavens - squelch it.
- Thomas Carlyle, British essayist, 1840s

...being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual.

The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
-Charles Trevelyan, head of administration for famine relief, 1840s

[existing policies] will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good.
- Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior

A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan.
- The Times, editorial, 1848

I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country...to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours.
- Cambridge historian Charles Kingsley, letter to his wife from Ireland, 1860

A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862

This would be a grand land if only every Irishman would kill a Negro, and be hanged for it. I find this sentiment generally approved - sometimes with the qualification that they want Irish and Negroes for servants, not being able to get any other.
- British historian Edward Freeman, writing on his return from America, about 1881

...Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous and uncertain: look to Ireland...
As a Saxon, I abhor all dynasties, monarchies and bayonet governments, but this latter seems to be the only one suitable for the Celtic man.
-Robert Knox, anatomist, describing his views on the "Celtic character", 1850

The Celts are not among the progressive, initiative races, but among those which supply the materials rather than the impulse of history...The Persians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Teutons are the only makers of history, the only authors of advancement. ...Subjection to a people of a higher capacity for government is of itself no misfortune; and it is to most countries the condition of their political advancement.
- British historian Lord Acton, 1862

You would not confide free representative institutions to the Hottentots [savages], for instance.
- Lord Salisbury, who opposed Home Rule for Ireland, 1886

...more like squalid apes than human beings. ...unstable as water. ...only efficient military despotism [can succeed in Ireland] ...the wild Irish understand only force.
- James Anthony Froude, Professor of history, Oxford
________________________________________
A View of the State of Ireland
Edmund Spenser (Google Books)
Marry those be the most barbaric and loathy conditions of any people (I think) under heaven...They do use all the beastly behaviour that may be, they oppress all men, they spoil as well the subject, as the enemy; they steal, they are cruel and bloody, full of revenge, and delighting in deadly execution, licentious, swearers and blasphemers, common ravishers of women, and murderers of children.[...]
And first I have to find fault with the abuse of language; that is, for the speaking of Irish among the English, which as it is unnatural that any people should love another's language more than their own, so it is very inconvenient and the cause of many other evils. ...It seemeth strange to me that the English should take more delight to speak that language than their own, whereas they should, methinks, rather take scorn to acquaint their tongues thereto. For it hath ever been the use of the conqueror to despise the language of the conquered and to force him by all means to learn his.
________________________________________
Dictionary of Race and Ethnic Relations
Ernest Cashmore, Michael Banton (Google Books)
The Irish emigrant experience can only be understood by recognising the dramatic impact that centuries of British colonialism has had for the Irish people. As a result of its geographical position and internal political feuds Ireland became the first English colony.[…] The native Irish were depicted as savage heathens who were "more uncivill, more uncleanly, more barbarous and more brutish in their customs and demeanours, than in any other part of the world that is known." Consequently, it was justified, through military conquest and legislation such as 1697 Penal Laws, to deprive the native population – "the uncivilised Other" – of their religious, civil, and land rights.
________________________________________
Out of Africa, out of Ireland
Rootsweb
In Black Folk Then and Now, Du Bois concurs: "Even young Irish peasants were hunted down as men hunt down game, and were forcibly put aboard ship, and sold to plantations in Barbados".
According to Peter Berresford Ellis in To Hell or Connaught, soldiers commanded by Henry Cromwell, Oliver's son, seized a thousand "Irish wenches" to sell to Barbados. Henry justified the action by saying, "Although we must use force in taking them up, it is so much for their own good and likely to be of so great an advantage to the public." He also suggested that 2,000 lrish boys of 12 to 14 years of age could be seized for the same purpose: "Who knows but it might be a means to make them Englishmen."
________________________________________
The Love of the Irish
Slate
Britain sometimes meant well in trying to govern Ireland, but the contempt felt by Englishmen towards the Irish kept surfacing. Benjamin Disraeli, Queen Victoria's favourite Prime Minister, couldn't stand the Irish. He described the native Irish way of life as consisting of "clannish brawls and coarse idolatry". Lord Salisbury, the influential Conservative Prime Minister at the end of the 19th century, denied that the Irish could ever have self-government with this doubly racist sentiment that: "You would not confide free representative institutions to the Hottentots, for example." (Although, in a moment of sanity, he conceded that Ireland did need "lots and lots of money", which, at last, it has got.) James Anthony Froude, a discipline of Carlyle's and a professor of history at Oxford described the Irish as being "more like squalid apes than human beings" and Charles Kingsley, the author of The Water Babies, continued the primate analogy by writing from Ireland that he was "haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country". The humorous magazine Punch repeatedly, throughout the reign of Victoria, portrayed the Irish as Simian creatures, chimp-like, with long arms and the long upper lip of the monkey, and The Times' editorials excoriated the Irish at every turn for their "want of character", fecklessness, hopelessness, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 03:55 AM

From the link supplied by Jim in his last post:

Tierney believed that the very purpose of a free Irish state would be to forge an Ireland through education that linked the Gaelic state of the past to what he envisaged as the Christian state of the future.

Unfortunately for Tierney's beliefs there never was any such thing as a Gaelic State of the past

"Raised on songs and stories. Heroes of renown" – just about sums it up. And if you have been daft enough to swallow it, then learning the actual history of the place must come as one hell of a shock.

In his academic work, MacNeill identified the basis of the Irish nation in the remote Gaelic past. He showed that the Irish nation was an ancient historical entity whose formation could be traced back to the fifth century: 'the Irish people stand singular and eminent … from the fifth century forward, as the possessors of an intense national consciousness'

Any historian whose speciality is medieval history {The study of history from the 5th to the 15th centuries} could destroy MacNeill's notions in an instant and expose them as pure fairy tales.

In 1924, the orthodox Catholic Bulletin declared that 'The Irish nation is the Gaelic nation; its language and literature is the Gaelic language; its history is the history of the Gael. All other elements have no place

In terms of teaching anybody anything that is a ludicrously myopic, isolationist and retrograde point of view on which to build a system of education. The results of which have hardly been a success – if this system has been in place for 90 years how come only somewhere between 5% and 10% of Ireland's population use it?

"In the 2011 census for the Republic, 94,000 people reported using Irish as a daily language outside of the education system, and 1.3 million reported using it at least occasionally in or out of school. There are several thousand Irish speakers in Northern Ireland. It has been estimated that the active Irish-language scene probably comprises 5 to 10 per cent of Ireland's population.{Source: Romaine, Suzanne (2008), "Irish in a Global Context", in Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín and Seán Ó Cearnaigh, A New View of the Irish Language, Dublin: Cois Life Teoranta, ISBN 978-1-901176-82-7 – Just in case Jim thought I'd made it up}

In Gaeltacht areas, however, there has been a general decline of the use of Irish. It has been predicted that, within 10 years, Irish will no longer be the primary language in any of the designated Gaeltacht areas {Source: "Ranafast Gaeltacht in Donegal fights Irish language decline – BBC News". Bbc.co.uk. 2015-08-13. Retrieved 2015-10-31.}

Wonder if non-Irish folks following this thread are aware of it but if you want any civil service or government job in the Republic you must be able to speak Gaelic. I once knocked round Lahinch golf course with an American who had employed one of the caddies, a youngster about 14 years old. Through the summer he'd been making money at the club hand over fist but he told us that all that was about to come to an end because he had to go off to summer school for intensive Gaelic instruction as that would open up more employment options for him when it came time to leave school. He thought it a complete and utter waste of time and absolutely hated the idea of doing it.
   
Milne argued that the majority of Protestants in the Irish Free State had considered themselves Irish in imperial terms. In contrast with southern Catholic nationalists, southern Protestant unionists felt deeply the pressure of political change. Many schools under Protestant management did not subscribe to the Gaelicicising policies and the historical perspective of the new state. They had to bear the rigours of a state Gaelicisation policy, or else see their schools deprived of all public funding.

The will and choice of the people Jim, or simple big state bully-boy coercion?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM

You are the only one to have suggested children were taught to hate - you have never produced a single quote of anybody making such a disgusting claim.

I have never made that claim.
I did claim that Irish children were indoctrinated with anti-British propaganda, keeping hate alive.
I quoted the Irish historian O'Callaghan who stated that schools "indoctrinated" children with "ant-British propaganda."

Indoctrinating children in schools with anti-British propaganda will inevitably engender a negative view of Britain in may if not most of those children.

Are you in favour of indoctrination and propaganda in schools Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

"You will not find a reference to "brainwashing children to hate", or distorting or lying or anything resembling any of these things." – Challenges Jim Carrroll

He then supplies a link - HOLOHAN – from which we get the following:

1: "The perception is common among Irish teachers, politicians and historians that there were serious deficiencies and flaws in the approach to the teaching of history and in the process of curricular development. These defects are thought to have contributed to the phenomenon, as expressed by Joe Lee, that 'the modern Irish, contrary to popular impression, have little sense of history. What they have is a sense of grievance which they choose to dignify by calling it history'

Taken directly from "Teaching Irish Independence: History in Irish Schools, 1922-72", by John O'Callaghan.

2: Platitudes on the harmful effects of biased history teaching should consider that for most of the period, apart from the endeavours of the Irish Historical Studies school, academic history itself progressed little beyond an aspiration to objectivity

For developments in academic scholarship, see Theo Moody (ed.), Irish historiography 1936-71 (Dublin, 1971).

3: "I believe it is necessary to stress again the great responsibility the teachers of any nation have for the way they interpret history and pass it on to the youth of their country. I believe that if history could be taught in such a fashion that it would help to create harmony among people rather than division and hatred, it would serve this nation and all nations better."

Statement by the Coroner at the inquest into the death of Lord Mountbatten in 1979 – that glorious occasion where the bold Fennian men sallied forth against near impossible odds and successfully murdered a 79 year old man and two teenage boys, one of whom was Irish, who were out for a days fishing, four others were seriously injured, one of them Lady Doreen Brabourne aged 83 died from her injuries the following day. How proud Pearse and Connolly must have been.

This comment reflects the assumption that Irish history teaching propagated a prejudiced and potentially dangerous account of Irish history; that it presented a jingoistic version of Irish history to young people and was an underlying factor in Irish Republican Army (IRA) violence because it instilled hatred of England as an evil oppressor and glorified the militancy of the campaign for independence.

4: James Dillon, speaking in the Dáil in April 1959, felt that an interesting survey would be an enquiry into 'the places of education of the internees recently released from the Curragh Camp'. Dillon was concerned with the kind of instruction they received, where they got it and from whom. A comprehensive survey would certainly help to put allegations about the role of nationalist-motivated history teaching as a determining factor in republican violence in context.

Hey Jim numbers are building- three historians, nope four counting O'Callaghan, a Coroner and the leader of Fine Gael, all thought there was a link. But let's see how this survey got on:

The ongoing failure of the Department of Education to open its records to full public scrutiny continues to hinder research on history teaching. While history teaching has not suffered from academic neglect, much of the work in the area has been from a pedagogical rather than a historical perspective.

Now I wonder why the Department of Education would object to public scrutiny of its records relating to the teaching of history in Ireland? Ah but wait a minute Dev was still alive in 1959 wasn't he and Irish History ended at 1921, the Civil War that de Valera needlessly instigated was never taught, didn't happen according to Ruth Dudley Edwards, and she should know she sat through the lessons where the Irish Civil War was totally ignored and by-passed.

5: In his 1992 thesis, Doherty argued that the vague minimalism that characterised formal guidelines governing the teaching of history reflected the limited nature of central control over education, and facilitated a populist conception of that history. He showed that so inadequate was teachers' professional training and so vulnerable were their terms of employment to managerial and local pressure, they became actively engaged in the promulgation of socially acceptable beliefs.

Socially accepted beliefs do not amount to history.

6: However, the conception of history and history teaching as a method of restoring and renewing the Gaelic past did not consider those whose past was not a Gaelic one. The emergence of a new consensus on Irish identity meant that those who did not subscribe to it, in political, cultural or historical terms, became outsiders in the state. Roy Foster's review of the cultural revival movement was highly critical: 'the emotions focused by cultural revivalism around the turn of the century were fundamentally sectarian and even racialist'

Whoops Jim there's another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM

Also from Jim's link,

"At the inquest into the death of Lord Mountbatten in 1979 the (Irish)coroner
stated:
I believe it is necessary to stress again the great responsibility the teachers
of any nation have for the way they interpret history and pass it on to the
youth of their country. I believe that if history could be taught in such a
fashion that it would help to create harmony among people rather than
division and hatred, it would serve this nation and all nations better."

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:22 PM

Somewhere back down the thread Jim Carroll was complaining about injustices heaped on the Irish up North and he specifically mentioned Diplock Courts and mass internment without trial.

But of course Great Britain did not introduce non-jury trial or mass internment to Ireland did they Jim - Your pal Eamon de Valera did that in the late 1930s - ever heard of such a thing as the Special Criminal Court? Article 38 of the Constitution of Ireland? Or the "Offences against the State Act 1939". When the IRA mounted its S-Pan bombing campaign on the British mainland in the late 1930s de Valera had IRA members rounded up and interned - guess where? - The Curragh. Later after the Second World War when the IRA mounted their cross-border campaign of 1956 to 1962 internment was introduced again as evidenced by the following:

James Dillon, speaking in the Dáil in April 1959, felt that an interesting survey would be an enquiry into 'the places of education of the internees recently released from the Curragh Camp'

Just thought that I'd put that in in case you claimed that none of this ever happened. So clear precedents set for both in Ireland when applied to internal security problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:15 AM

What is a Field General Court Martial if not a trial without a jury .................... or any defence come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:29 AM

From another thread this contribution fro Jim Carroll:

"I've just withdrawn from a thread in which you and your mate have launched personal attacks on my friends, family my neighbours and in fact the vast majority of the occupants of this island by representing them as "brainwashed" ignorant, gullible, and misled by propaganda."

More Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit". I do not think that either Keith A or I have launched any such personal attack and besides I think it was the five historians quoted, the former Leader of Fine Gael and the Coroner who held the inquest into the death of Lord Louis Mountbatten who all linked the political meddling and interference into educational matters and the faux-history that was taught in schools in the Republic of Ireland for purely political purposes to the violence that has blighted the island since independence.

There again Jim you could always provide examples of such personal attacks - but track record would tend towards the probability that you won't.

Example 1: Of any personal attack against the friends of Jim Carroll?

Example 2: Of any personal attack against any of Jim Carroll's family?

Example 3: Of any personal attack against any of Jim Carroll's neighbours?

Example 4: Of any personal attack against the Irish nation?

Numbers 1, 2 & 3 will be impossibly difficult for Mr Carroll as I do not know any of them, can you actually make a personal attack against people you do not know, and for that matter how do you make a personal attack against the entire population of a country?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 08:47 AM

Ah a technical question from Raggytash, that of course he would have not had to ask if he had bothered to look it up himself.

What is a Field General Court Martial if not a trial without a jury .................... or any defence come to that.

Field General Court Martial: The Court is made up of a Judge Advocate, and between three and seven (depending on the seriousness of the offence) officers and warrant officers. Rulings on matters of law are made by the Judge Advocate alone, whilst decisions on the facts are made by a majority of the members of the court, not including the Judge Advocate, and decisions on sentence by a majority of the court, this time including the Judge Advocate.

The three to seven members of the panel fulfil the role of the Jury with the added advantage that they can ask any question they wish directly.

Non-Jury trials and mass internment were introduced as solutions to internal security problems in Ireland NOT by the British but by the Government of the Republic of Ireland at the instigation of the man who first turned the IRA loose and was instrumental in fomenting the Irish Civil War - Eamon de Valera.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 11:59 AM

yet more jingoistic double speak

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 01:27 PM

Jingoistic doublespeak??

You asked a simple question Raggy? Naturally in your usual smart-arsed, ill-informed way, you know like the point you tried to make regarding when conscription was introduced, and I answered it.

At a Court Martial the President is the Judge the other panel members fulfil the role of the Jury. Now then Raggy tell us all what is so hard to grasp about that set up.

Non-Jury trials and mass internment were not introduced in Ireland by the British in Northern Ireland. They just followed the precedent set in dealing with the IRA by Eamon de Valera and the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:00 PM

So you are trying to say that a panel of army officers, colleagues of General Maxwell, could act as a jury of 12 good men and true, the peers of the accused. Just which planet do you live on.


Don,t bother to reply I already know the answer. Your hatred of anything not "BRITISH" is appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM

What guarantees that the 12 are all good men and true? Besides Raggy Military Justice does not require those 12 men, it requires whatever is required to make up a Court Martial panel. Tell me whether or not martial law had been declared on the 25th April 1916? The other thing you seem to have overlooked, those who rose in Dublin did so as armed men in uniform, called themselves the Army of the newly declared Republic and read a Proclamation that stated they were allied to Germany - on what grounds should any of these men been tried as civilians in a civilian criminal court? If you opt for violent solutions then accept violent consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:32 PM

Your hatred of anything not "BRITISH" is appalling.
Does the Irish Army not also have court marshals?
Any army in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 03:50 PM

Raggy an example please of this alleged hatred of mine "of anything not "BRITISH".

Oh but I forgot you are one of the set on this forum who are good at throwing out baseless accusations but very poor at substantiating them.

Don't worry Rags, I'm not holding my breath - you're as predictable as the tide.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: AmyLove
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 08:11 AM

An excellent resource from Villanova University:

Library Exhibits :: To Strike for Freedom! The 1916 Easter Rising

This booklist is worth checking out, too (six pages of listings) (the link is too long to make clickable):

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20History/Documents/1916-booklists.pdf