BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity

Subject: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

Interesting. Conspiracy theories have been and seem to be amazingly popular on Mudcat (below the line, obviously).

Any thoughts as to why? Do Mudcatters (at least many of those who post often) like simple answers to complex political and economic phenomena. It's hard to believe it's just Mudcatters. Maybe it's a function of the Web itself. Maybe it's just the corresponding view on the Left (including the idea that religion is the root of all evil) to the fundamentalism on the Right that believes that all answers to all questions can be found in the Bible, or are God's plan.

Other ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:44 PM

Well, it's MY opinion that perhaps those who start threads like this are secretly controlled by cabals of frustrated musicians who can't get enough really important stuff into their lives because they're trapped into endless nights of singing, playing and learning new songs...etc...but...





no....I can't really guess. ☺
I'll think on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: MMario
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:51 PM

? Many many of the conspiracy theories certainly do *NOT* fit as "simple answers to complex political and economic phenomena"

so that kind of blows that idea out of the water.

In fact, I would say *MOST* conspiracy theories tend to be more convoluted then the actuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:52 PM

"...to the fundamentalism on the Right that believes that all answers to all questions can be found in the Bible,..."


          I have it on reasonably good authority that there are some fundamentalist who think answers can be found in the Bhagavad Gita.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:58 PM

More often than not it's not a matter of whether there was a conspiracy or not, but of what the conspiracy consisted of, and who was involved in it. Pretty well always when the confidential records come out years later it is revealed that the story that the public were told about public events wasn't actually that close to the truth. That's a conspiracy.

Of course some theories about conspiracy are daft, but then the truth is often pretty daft.

I've got a macro-conspiracy theory - it's that somewhere there are government agencies dreaming up and propagating a whole mass of conspiracy theories about everything - the idea being that people get scepitical about such notions, and that makes it easier to get away with
covert activities. The Mudcat is just the kind of place they'd use to play games like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

Why here? Because there are forces at work here who allow it simply to show what total and complete shit filled assholes conspiracy theorists actually are.      

It seems to be working too. Through the non-stop and clandestine efforts of the Mudcat Tri-napping Commission we have seen the insanity and downright silliness of a large number of stumblebum dickheads. It is a sinister plot but one which has paid dividends as we have all seen the ludicrous bullshit some people believe and try to sell to others.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

If taken too seriously conspiracy theories can be dangerous ... but on the other side they can provide a comical relief in the madness of the world we live in.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM

Riginslinger:

The Bhagavad Gita is a Hindu scripture; I am not aware of any newsworthy Hindu fundamentalists. It's the Muslim hard cases who concern me the most.

Now, if you had written " I have it on reasonably good authority that there are some fundamentalists who think answers can be found in the Koran," I would have nodded in agreement.

If you have anything of interest to tell us about Hindu fundamentalists, please do so!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:44 PM

I myself am deathly afraid of Pastafarian Fundamentalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: MMario
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

The Pastafarian Fundue-mentalists are even worse!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

"I am not aware of any newsworthy Hindu fundamentalists."

The Air India plane bombing in '85 is a case in point of extreme Hindu fundamentalists .... they're just as dangerous as any religeous despots.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:48 PM

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they AREN'T all out to get me...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:51 PM

Beware of fox packs Duck.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:52 PM

I know some catholics who think there are answers in the Bible.
Are we supposed to be creating NEW conspiracy theories here or just recycling the old ones.
A friend at school many years back complained about having nightmares featuring the munchkins from Oz.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:53 PM

Munchkins were behind the demise of the Tin Man.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:59 PM

It's the Masonic Munchkins (specifically) that were perpetrators.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Well, I for one fine the term "conspiracy theories" demeaning and just a PR stunt by the corportists crooks to keep people in the dark...

Most of what I see as conspiracies (different term) are, IMO, actual conpsiracies...

Like the killings or JFK, RFK and MLK... None of the stories add up and taken as a whole only an animal cracker or folks who has bought into the above noted PR campaign...

Believe it or not, the truth is out there, regardless of what it is dressed up as...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:05 PM

PoppaGator - Here you are! Sorry the post is so long. I've never been able to get the "blue clicky" thing to work.


NEW DELHI - Hindu extremists torched nearly a dozen churches and the home of a Christian leader Thursday, defying a curfew imposed to quell three days of religious violence in eastern India. Christians retaliated by setting fire to several homes belonging to Hindus.

Local police have been unsuccessful in halting the attacks and the federal government announced it was sending in a paramilitary force.

About 19 churches, most of them small mud and thatch buildings, have been razed since violence broke out on Christmas Eve when long-standing tensions between the Hindu majority and the small Christian community erupted over conversions to Christianity.

Hindu groups have long charged Christian missionaries with trying to lure the poor and those who occupy the lowest rungs of Hinduism's complex caste-system away with promises of money and jobs.

On Thursday, a mob of Hindus burned down the house of Radhakant Nayak, a member of India's upper house of parliament and a Christian leader in the area, Nayak told the CNN-IBN news channel.

Also, 11 churches were ransacked and burned in Kandhamal district of Orissa state, the Press Trust of India quoted unnamed police officials as saying.

Superintendent of Police Narsingh Bhol said several prayer houses were ransacked and some were set on fire, but he did not have the exact number.

Meanwhile, in the village of Brahmangaon, a group of Christians burned down several Hindu homes in an apparent retaliation for the attack on churches. Angry Hindus then burned down the village police station, complaining of a lack of protection, a local police official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.

Bahugrahi Mahapatra, a senior government official in the area confirmed there had been "disturbances" in the village, but could not provide details.

One person has been killed and at least 25 people, belonging to both Hindu and Christian communities, have been arrested for suspected involvement in the violence, Bhol told The Associated Press by phone.

But the arrests and curfew have not stopped the attacks and the federal government said it was sending in a 300-strong paramilitary force.

"We have to get the violence under control," the junior federal home minister, Sriprakash Jaiswal, told reporters.

India is overwhelmingly Hindu but officially secular. Religious minorities, such as Christians, who account for 2.5 percent of the country's 1.1. billion people, and Muslims, who make up 14 percent, often coexist peacefully.

But throughout India's history, the issue of conversions has provoked violence by hard-line Hindus.

Orissa has one of the worst histories of anti-Christian violence. An Australian missionary and his two sons, aged 8 and 10, were burned to death in their car in Orissa following a Bible study class in 1999.

Orissa is the only Indian state that has a law requiring people to obtain police permission before they change their religion. The law was intended to counter missionary work.

There were conflicting reports of what started the violence in the rural district of Kandhamal, about 840 miles southeast of New Delhi. Each side blamed the other.

The Hindu hard-liners said Christians had attempted to attack one of their leaders, who heads an anti-conversion movement.

But the New Delhi-based Catholic Bishops Conference of India said the fighting began when Hindu extremists objected to a show marking Christmas Eve, believing it was designed to encourage conversions.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:08 PM

"The Air India plane bombing in '85 is a case in point of extreme Hindu fundamentalists"

That atrocity was committed by Sikh's which are, AFAIK, distinct from Hindus.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM

If you believe one of the conspiracy theories then it's not a theory anymore. IT'S A FACT DAMMIT AND IF I JUST SHOUT LOUD ENOUGH MAYBE I CAN GET ALL OF YOU TO BELIEVE IT TOO BECAUSE IT'S A FACT DAMMIT. IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE - JUST CHECK MY SOURCES.....DAMMIT.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM

Sihks ... your correct Bobad ... they are a blend of Hindu and Islam (I think) ... oh well, the ones involved in the bombing were extreme despots whatever they were.

Wesley .... sounds like you need a dose of 'happiness' ... you should come up here to Saint John for some chilling out. :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:23 PM

I'm not sure I can trust the evauluation of anyone who would go by the name "Number 6". Can I talk to "Number 1" instead??

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:28 PM

Number 1 .... is busy right now .... Number's 2, 3, 4, 5 are incognito at this time ... so what do you want to talk about Wesley ?? :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:32 PM

I dunno, Wesley - I remember when I was in the (US) army, "6" was the non-encrypted radio code number for the unit commander ("this is Redleg 6"), his jeep was number 6 (eg, HQ-6), and so forth. "1" was the number for the personnel guy and, having been one, I wouldn't trust them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:38 PM

6 { if that really is your name] - Then this might be a good time for me to go underground myself. The truth is out there......

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:00 PM

Thanks for the info on that Hindu-Christian conflict. I didn't see a date ~ was this recent? (Not that the chronology really matters...the fact that it happened at all is more to the point.)

I've never thought of Hindus as especially bloodthirsty, but back a year or two before I was born, there was certainly plenty of Hindu-vs-Muslim violence involved in the birth of independent India and Pakistan. It certainly stands to reason that neither side could possibly have been totally innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:08 PM

I believe there are many mudcatters who are avidly 'conspiring' to keep music 'Live'...well that's my theory anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Skivee
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:10 PM

From a radio intercept by IMDB security services:


Number 6: Where am I?
Number 2: In the Village.
Number 6: What do you want?
Number 2: We want information.
Number 6: Whose side are you on?
Number 2: That would be telling. We want information... information... information.
Number 6: You won't get it.
Number 2: By hook or by crook, we will.
Number 6: Who are you?
Number 2: The new Number 2.
Number 6: Who is Number 1?
Number 2: You are Number 6.
Number 6: I am not a number, I am a free man.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

PappaGator - I looked it up. The Christian vs. Hindu article was on today's Yahoo news page, and it was dated yesterday 12/27/07. It's still going on today.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: MaineDog
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

"paranoia strikes deep
into your life it will creep"
--csny

The most dangerous conspiracy is the one you know absolutely nothing about -- obviously, because they have better cover.
--paraphrase of Umberto Eco

it couldnt be my fault, because I am one of the good guys!
Therefore there must be a conspiracy against me.

I don't need to know anything else.

MD

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM

"They are not like us - let's kill them" seems to be pretty universal, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Anytime anyone with any brains can see that the official explanation doesn't add up (e.g. JFK assassination, 9-11) alternative theories will pop up. Unfortunately, most Americans are too scared and/or lazy to look for truth, and prefer to call those who question the official line of BS "conspiracy nuts".

Personally, I have no patience for the head-in-the-sand crowd, not just because I detest intellectual laziness and cowardice, but also because their attitude threatens my (and everone's) freedom.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:58 PM

1. I've been to Dallas and I could have nailed JFK from that window in the TBD building. Really. I have no doubt Lee Harvey Oswald did it alone. WHY is another story and since he was killed by Jack Ruby we'll never know. I do wish that they'd find Kennedy's brain, however.

2. Occam's Razor shaves best.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

The official explanation normally involves a conspiracy of some kind anyway, it's just one that it's one that points in a convenient direction. That doesn't mean it's necessarily false, though sometimes it will be - but it's a conspiracy theory none the less.

Right now there are all sorts of theories about Benazir Bhutto's death, with fingers being pointed in all directions. But it's pretty self-evident that it was a conspiracy that brought about her death. Who was involved, well that's another question.

Theories that don't stand up (and that's most theories) should be rejected because they don't stand up - but labelling them as "conspiracy theories", as if that was the end of the story, that's just shoddy thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:42 PM

That seems to be the beauty of "Conspiracy Theories." Any time somebody comes up with an idea you disagree with, all you have to do is label it a conspiracy theory and the other guy loses his credibility with the public.

                         Rush Limbaugh does that all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:10 PM

"Do Mudcatters (at least many of those who post often) like simple answers to complex political and economic phenomena"

Actually, many 'conspiracy theories' are highly complex answers for simple phenomena. Conslt "Occam's Razor", also known as 'Keep it Simple Stupid'.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:38 PM

"I do wish that they'd find Kennedy's brain, however."

At least we know thathe had one: I do wish that George would find his...

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:59 PM

They found W's brain in the National Archives and made a movie out of it. The archivists also found out what Cheney's been up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:18 PM

Well, I do think it's fascinating what a wealth of conspiracy theories we have to choose from on Mudcat threads below the line.

Just a few of the greatest hits:

1) Religion is the root of all evil.

2) The 2004 election was stolen by Diebold (or Diebold machines, manipulated by Bush partisans). I have no idea how much validity this has--it sure hasn't been proven, and there are far more plausible reasons for the outcome.

Corollary--the 2008 election is also already lost.

3) The plausible reasons for 2004 do not include some undetermined powers that be, knowing Dean was the more powerful candidate--dead wrong on that--deciding to eliminate Dean so that Bush could be elected. Sorry, that just doesn't pass elementary logic.

4) The usual leftist theories of world domination, usually centering around big money--either Bilderbergs, Wall St, or unnamed nefarious financial interests, who of course are all in collusion--there is no competition between them.

5) The US government blew up the Twin Towers, or OK'ing it. To our credit, we mostly reject that one.

6) The US invaded Iraq as part of a plan to take over all world oil resources--at the behest of Big Oil, if that's your chosen flavor of conspiracy.

7) The US is in danger of being taken over by (this time) Spanish-speaking hordes, who will give California New Mexico, Arizona, etc. back to Mexico, push many Americans onto unemployment, and relegate English-speakers to a pathetic fringe.

I'm sure you can add more.

"But it really doesn't matter (what) you put upon the list..."

Actually what I was really interested in is why Mudcat is so honored as to have this wonderful assortment of conspiracy theories.

One possibility might be the comfortable anonymity Mudcat affords to anybody who does not use his or her real name. With anonymity, a poster can hazard the most absurd theories imaginable, secure in the knowledge that he or she will not have to defend them--after all, it's not the poster's real name.

You can make the most unlikely allegations--for instance, an all-encompassing and long-standing US imperialist plot--and never have to provide any evidence. In a 3-D conversation, your debate partner could press you for evidence--and walking away might be awkward. On Mudcat, no problem--just go to another thread, another site--or anywhere else--and wait til the thread disappears.

Does that sound plausible?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:47 PM

"You can make the most unlikely allegations--for instance, an all-encompassing and long-standing US imperialist plot--and never have to provide any evidence."

                Ron - The political elite in this country do this every day of the week. Nothing ever happens to them.

                      And why to you insist on trying to protect religion? I would think in the light of the recent events, you'd finally come to your senses.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:07 AM

I think that a religion's teachings should be separated from the actions of those who profess it.    There is all too often no relationship at all between the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:24 AM

With you, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:52 AM

Rapaire - Yes, I would agree with that too. But very often some individual will use the "teachings" to justify actions that are totally contrary to the teachings.
                            That might satisy somee definition of insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:44 AM

As I stated early on this thread and what Rigs has restated... Just the tern "conspiracy theory" is used much the way the term "liberal" is used... It has been PR'd to a point where any factual story can be blanketed with the "conspiracy theory" label and everyone is supposed to automatically disbelive the factual story...

As for the 2004 election, Ron, perhaps you'd like to esplain why the relationship between Diebold and the Bush administration??? Or perhaps why the winning party is the same party who has fough so hard to not have a paper trail??? No, we can't prove any wrong doing, like in 2000 election where there is a mountain of evidence that Katherine Harris and Jeb ush broke their own laws in order to get over 50,000 mostly black voters off the rolls... But given the 2000 election it is not "unreasonable" to think that something went wrong in Ohio in 2004...

I mean, if we are trying to sell the concept of "democracy" we need to get our elections right and for folks to just put the "conspiracy theory" on the 2004, or even the 2000 election is like telling the rest of the world that we are no better than countires where elections are always corrupt... LIke in Iraq when Saddam got 99% of the vote...

So, please, Ron, don't fall into that trap... You are too good a thinker to be sucked into such undemocratic PR trickery... And make no bones about it, that is what "conspiracy theories" is...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 09:35 AM

Yes, Kevin, obviously conspiracies do exist--it seems very likely that Bhutto's death was due to a conspiracy--but not definitely. The Bush campaign to hoodwink the US public into supporting a war against Iraq is another that could be labelled a conspiracy--quite a few people engaged in promoting a view that some of them knew was not supported, and consciously keeping evidence that might refute their views from being made public.

But Mudcatters seem to see a lot more of them than the general educated public does. All the ones on my list are conspiracy theories.

And obviously not just Mudcatters like--and possibly believe them. The Da Vinci Code is a perfect case in point--who knows how many people actually believe that Opus Dei actually sponsors murder? Some no doubt do believe it--since it confirms their already firmly-held prejudice.

And to label all labeling of such ideas "shoddy thinking" is itself shoddy thinking. I trust you were not doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 10:08 AM

How about this site?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: john f weldon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:17 AM

It is increasingly obvious that the Mudcatters are a dangerous group, planning to establish the Independent State of Mudcattistan. And then rule the world.

If I'm allowed to be the Grand Vizier of of Peterpaulandmaryville, I won't let on!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:39 AM

There is a popular idea that there are conspiracy theories that involve malfeasance of the government in orchestrating events. The conspiracy idea is that these theories are inherently false and thus given the name "conspiracy" as if to downplay or denegrate
them. This is a buzz-word that is often used by some to challenge those who would open investigations.

An open mind would not dismiss an idea with a label. To scoff or to laugh at a so-called "conspiracy" theory is to deny any credibility of an idea without giving it necessary thought. This is the problem with information for which the public is given. It is not usually tested and assumptions are made based on prejudices and political bias.

The people on Mudcat appear to be intelligent and aware of current events. This is one of the reasons I bother to read the comments and respond.

Intelligent dialogue on a topic is better than dismissing any out of hand. I have found some very insightful comments from folks on Mudcat which keeps me interested not only in the musical side but the BS side as well.

I don't think that Mudcat is all about "conspiracy theories" any more than the nature of information given officially by the news media or the present administration. An attempt to brand Mudcat as being loony or frivolous because of built-in bias or condescension on the part of those who don't care for dialogue is disingenous.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: john f weldon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:45 AM

Sometimes the most unlikely ones turn out to be true; the events surrounding Dr. Cameron, the Allan Memorial, and the CIA were oft whispered about, but dismissed as incredible and nutty.

Later, the reality turned out to be worse than the theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy Theories' Popularity
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:05 PM

The point, Frank, is that many Mudcatters (who comment below the line) seem to see more conspiracies than they have evidence for. It is not a suppression of dialogue to require evidence--sorry if you think it is. Exactly which of my listed conspiracy theories have been proven to be actual conspiracies? And why do you feel the evidence is conclusive?