BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM

Did Arthur Bremer work for the CIA, too? How about John Hinckley, Jr.? Or John Patler?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM

Who assasinated the 3 best progressive leaders of the 60's, art??

That is the bottom line here...

John Hinkley, BTW, has an alibi... He was nuts for a movie star... Hardly a comparision to what went on with JFK, FRK and MLK assasinations...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:30 PM

No, not a comparison, but there is not even a spark of proof that the FBI, CIA, WPA or NASA were involved in any of those murders.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:45 PM

I would perhaps not have chosen the phrase "more tragic", Rig but I agree that at the least it is infuriating that this hatefilled old man got to kill a member of a race he despised. Better, imo, if a Black person had killed HIM.

That's the most openly, grossly, racist piece of hate speech I've ever seen on Mudcat.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 PM

My wife was watching news coverage of the event. She told me that not only was his victim black but all three of the EMS first responders who saved the evil man's life were also black. I think I'd have let the bastard bleed out myself, but these dedicated professionals did what there job regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:50 PM

Peter (Midchuck), I don't follow your reasoning. Would appreciate you clarifying what it is about Ebbie's post that you find racist.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 PM

Probably not the best phrased thing Ebbie has ever said, but admittedly said in frustration and anger.

There really are some individuals, of whatever color, that the world would be better off without; this one is still alive; his innocent victim isn't. I would have much preferred it if the guard, or any other black person,or anyone else, had managed to get off the first shot.

I'll stand by that wording, and I suspect that it isn't that much different from Ebbie' intent.
                              Dean

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:47 PM

I would much rather the first shot not have been fired at all.

But it was.

It is so hard, some times to deal with the reality of irrational and murderous acts fueled by hatred so irrationally intense that both the perpetrator and others consumed with hatred see it as justified, and are willing to sacrifice their own lives on that altar, or grant the status of martyrdom to those that do. Hatred mascarading as a principled stand.

There is no way to completely protect society from this.

Even knowing that, we must still try.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 AM

Thanks, Dean.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

Peter (Midchuck), I don't follow your reasoning. Would appreciate you clarifying what it is about Ebbie's post that you find racist.

White killing Blacks = bad.
Black killing Whites = good.

That's how I read it, anyway. If she meant something else, maybe one or the other of us, or both, suffered a communication failure. But I got the impression that she thought, if a _Black_ whacko had killed some _White_ guards, that would have been no big deal.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

"White killing Blacks = bad.
Black killing Whites = good."

Oh, nonsense! She didn't mean anything of the sort! No matter WHO made that post, if I was in doubt about the thrust,I'd have asked them to explain before I jumped on them......and with Ebbie, I'd never have worried.

Reading such a crazy tone into a post is the forum equivilent of 'carrying a chip on the shoulder'.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM

I know the guy was a nut-case, but it seems logical that if he went to the Holocaust Museum to do something dreadful, his beef would have been with Jews. So he walks in the door and shoots a black security guard. It's not impossible that the guard was a Jew, but the probablity wouldn't support that.
          I guess I'm just trying to make sense out of something that can't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

Oh, nonsense! She didn't mean anything of the sort! No matter WHO made that post, if I was in doubt about the thrust,I'd have asked them to explain before I jumped on them......and with Ebbie, I'd never have worried.

If she'd said, "Better one of the people he was shooting at had killed him," I'd have agreed with great enthusiasm. But she was implying that ANY Black person should have a license to kill any racist type. She didn't specify.

Reading such a crazy tone into a post is the forum equivilent of 'carrying a chip on the shoulder'.

Naw. It's just being the Devil's advocate. On this list, I tend to take conservative positions because it's crawling with knee-jerk liberals who don't really want to think through the issues. On lists that are crawling with knee-jerk conservatives who don't really want to think through the issues, I'm likely to take liberal positions.

It's more fun that way.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

Playing Devil's advovate is usually entertaining only in person, or only to the one doing it. If it is not done very carefully, you can end up insulting or hurting someone. I rather prefer to debate my OWN views instead of presuming I can simulate someone else's well enough to make the dialogue meaningful.

And just to take that role myself, how can you tell a "knee-jerk" liberal from a careful, concerned citizen?

(hey...are there "knee-jerk" Libertarians & Devil's advocates?) ☺

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

(hey...are there "knee-jerk" Libertarians...?)

Some of my best friends....

(When asked about my own politics, I generally respond "Libertarian with Socialist overtones." That's true enough, but it usually confuses the questioner enough that the subject gets dropped.)

P.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

How can you tell a "knee-jerk" conservative from a careful, concerned citizen?

Same answer as the question "how can you tell a "knee-jerk" liberal from a careful, concerned citizen?"

If they react the way you would react, they are careful, concerned citizens. If they react is a way you do not support, they are dangerous extremists who should have all their rights removed to make it safer for decent, right-thinking people.


Right, BillD?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:10 PM

It's almost as if you remember Sidney J. Harris, bruce.

He was a columnist who did an occasional bit in which he listed the same 'thought' as spoken about one's self, 'present company', and 'him'.

"I am self-assured and confident."
"You are a bit taken with your own ideas."
"He is an arrogant know-it-all."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

almost.

But the point is the validity of that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:37 PM

Why the Jews?

By Michael Gerson
Friday, June 12, 2009

It so happened that this week, on the day I wrote about Holocaust denial in the Middle East, a homegrown denier took a rifle into the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum -- an institution where I sit on the governing board. The museum counts about 1.7 million visitors each year who learn about the history of murderous racism -- and now one who decided to add to that history.

That day, out of curiosity, I did something I rarely do. I read the comments on my column on a number of Web sites that publish it. In addition to the normal political vituperation, the level of anti-Jewish feeling was appalling. The European genocide, some contended, was exaggerated by Jews for political purposes. Jews were behind the Bolshevik Revolution, the rise of Hitler and the outbreak of World War II. They control the newspapers, radio, television and book publishing. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is right to expose the Holocaust myth, they wrote, and Israel is perpetrating the real holocaust against the Palestinians.

Of course, these are the views of a small, self-selected group of the unbalanced -- hundreds out of millions. But the Internet allows these obsessions to gather in fetid pools, as James W. von Brunn (a prolific Web author) knew and exploited. The Internet has helped to create communities of malice.

The anti-Semitic community is varied in background and ideology. It includes both Internet Nazis and campus leftists carrying signs that read, "Jews = Nazis." The Rev. Jeremiah Wright recently blamed "them Jews" for blocking his access to President Obama. A conservative Web site recently included a forum on Holocaust denial (before it was exposed and removed). One posting read: "The same blinded people that believe that the Germans intentionally killed Jews -- also believe the myth of the Anne Frank Diary."

Marginalized Western anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers have gained influence in unexpected places. In 2002, Libya's dictator Moammar Gaddafi awarded his (less than coveted) Gaddafi International Human Rights prize to Roger Garaudy, a French Holocaust skeptic. Ahmadinejad's 2006 conference of deniers featured David Duke as a keynote speaker.

For some Americans, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are akin to a shameful hobby -- like collecting old racist knickknacks or Nazi memorabilia. But these ideas are not harmless, because they can inspire an angry, obsessed bigot who sets out on a June morning to kill Jews -- and murders an African American man who had a wife and young son.

The durability of anti-Semitism is a horrifying marvel of history. Sara Bloomfield, the director of the Holocaust Museum, observes: "Anti-Semitism has existed with and without Christianity. With and without the right wing. With and without the left wing. With and without democracy. With and without economic problems. With and without globalization. With and without a Jewish homeland."

Why the Jews? It is a question that must often have been asked during pogroms and in ghettos and in prison camps. There are many answers, none of them adequate. Anti-Semitism in the West has undeniable theological roots -- the distortion of a faith, founded by a Jewish teacher, to justify the persecution of Jews. Anti-Semitism has been fed by government incitement and by blood libels that never seem to die. It found resonance in various forms of nationalism and nativism, in the bent science of eugenics, and eventually in totalitarian ideology.

David Berger, the editor of "History and Hate," writes, "We shall never fully understand anti-Semitism. Deep-rooted, complex, endlessly persistent, constantly changing yet remaining the same, it is a phenomenon that stands at the intersection of history, sociology, economics, political science, religion and psychology."

But we do know that anti-Semitism has always been a kind of test -- a reliable measure of a nation's moral and social health. When the rights of Jews are violated, all human rights are insecure. When Jews and Jewish institutions are targeted, all minorities have reason for fear. And by this standard, America has cause for introspection.

The museum that von Brunn assaulted is the best answer to his hatred -- the aging survivors who still volunteer, photographs revealing the vanished lives of the dead, the happy pictures drawn by murdered children. Not far from where von Brunn entered the museum, there is a black wall inscribed with a quotation: "All men are created equal . . . they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights . . . among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is what anti-Semitism ultimately must deny, and this is the reason anti-Semitism must always and everywhere be confronted.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

No...the statement is a mediocre generalization. ...and the 2nd part is a silly caricature of anything resembling reason.
I sometimes have disputes with folks who HAVE carefully thought thru their ideas and can defend them with great clarity and logic.
I may disagree with their basic premises, but I can respect their position.




Then, at other times.......................................

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:46 PM

"and the 2nd part is a silly caricature of anything resembling reason."

And I thought you had not noticed! Sarcasm seems to be more effort than it is worth, from the results it gets here...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:51 PM

"'The durability of anti-Semitism is a horrifying marvel of history. Sara Bloomfield, the director of the Holocaust Museum, observes: "Anti-Semitism has existed with and without Christianity. With and without the right wing. With and without the left wing. With and without democracy. With and without economic problems. With and without globalization. With and without a Jewish homeland.'"


                      That's the question. Are there answers?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

"Sarcasm seems to be more effort than it is worth, from the results it gets here... "

It depends on the source, the context and the 'crafting' of sarcasm. When we have only text, and no voice tone or body language, things can get muddy.

(you note I sprinkle my posts with italics underlining, bold type, CAPITALS for emphasis, 'single quotes' for indicating a 'verbal inflection' of a lesser degree than SHOUTING, **asterisks** for even more emphasis, and sometimes **ALL** of them!!! (along with a few exclamation points at odd times) I like my posts to read as much like listening to me 'live' as possible. I even toss in a ☺ smile or **grin** when I want to be sure my intent is not mistaken.
   Sarcasm in print, as tempting as it can be at times, is often missed and, if seen, is taken as gratuitous insult or bad logic.

If you are regularly misunderstood, it may NOT be all your audience's fault.. ☺☺☺

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

US museum shooter son slams father's 'cowardice'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090612/ts_alt_afp/usshootingcrimeholocaust_20090612214407

The son of white supremacist James von Brunn, who shot a guard at the entrance of Washington's Holocaust museum this week, slammed the "cowardice" of his father's actions on Friday.

"My father's actions are unforgivable," Erik von Brunn, 32, said in a statement to ABC News. "I do not expect, nor will I accept forgiveness for what he has done," he said.

Erik's 88-year-old father reached the entrance of the Holocaust Memorial Museum in the US capital on Wednesday, raised a .22 caliber rifle and fatally shot African-American museum guard Stephen Tyrone Johns, 39, in the chest.

Security guards returned fire, shot von Brunn and prevented him from entering.

Von Brunn will face murder charges for the crime, officials have said.

"I cannot express enough how deeply sorry I am it was Mr Johns, and not my father who lost their life," the shooter's Florida-based son said.

Erik von Brunn said his father's hatred for racial minorities and Jews destroyed his family, and resulted in the divorce between him and Erik's mother...

Erik von Brunn had blunt words for racists and anti-semites who idolize his father's actions.

"For the extremists who believe my father is a hero: it is imperative you understand what he did was an act of cowardice," he said.
"To physically force your beliefs onto others with violence is not brave, but bullying. Doing so only serves to prove how weak those beliefs are. It is simply desperation, reminiscent of a temper tantrum when a child cannot get his way."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:28 PM

Perhaps it would be better in such a subject to forgo sarcasm, to say what one means as carefully as possible and mean what one says.

Regarding guns: if guns are illegal only criminals will have guns. Hitler outlawed guns... Countries with the most stringent gun laws do NOT, statistically, have the least murders. Guns/weapons are not the problem. People are. Attitudes are. Mind your own and pass it on.

Re the CIA/FBI issue: it is known that CIA knew the attacks were being planned on the WTC. They knew the culprits and were watching them, and allowed them to move in and out of the U.S. at will. The info was not shared. Who are the criminals? I do not doubt for one moment that one or both of these were involved in those assassinations, as Bobert suggests, regardless of who was blamed publicly.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:30 PM

OOPs! Sill I be locked out next? Then we will know, eh, Bobert??

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,Sneakin' in...
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:04 PM

Who knows how many posts I have left before ***they*** lock down on my computer... Seems as if ***they** have effectively locked down on my handle so far... If I try to post anything under my handle or as "logged in" I get "access denied"...

Hmmmmmmm??? BB gets to froth off at the mouth freely here and I get "Acess Denied" and have to go underground to post... Purdy fucked up!!!

But, hey, seein' as I might have one last post that get's thru... How about Fox having it's license pulled??? Fox promotes hate and lets folks out there who think it's okay to assasine progressives that that is just fine in their book... The airwaves are owned by all of US and I reject the idea that they can be used to promote right winged terrorism...

Now that should polish off my ISP as well as my handle... Don't wnat no friggin' commies here in this nice little comfy folk musicans web site, except of course the righties who can froth at the mouth 24/7...

B**ert

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:11 PM

Bobert-

"If they react is a way you do not support, they are dangerous extremists who should have all their rights removed to make it safer for decent, right-thinking people."


I hope you get back on. But now that Obama is in charge, you had best double-plus right-think only.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:13 PM

last was me

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:47 PM

That is good to hear, Azizi. Would that those who would benefit from hearing it had the ears to listen. I pray that at least some of them do.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:42 PM

"...it is known that CIA knew the attacks were being planned on the WTC. "

Please...not more of this! The CIA had ***general indications*** that someone 'over there' had ideas about causing some sort of damage/attack 'somewhere'. They have SAID this! They did NOT have specific knowlege of any details of any plans.

I cannot comprehend how these exaggerated stories get passed around and built up by folks who have no personal information about the inner secrets of the CIA, NSA, FBI   ...maybe it's the GOP and AARP spreading rumors... *sigh*

There seems to be something in the brain that makes us go: "There's stuff happening that upsets me. I don't like it...we durned well pay folks to stop it, so if they don't, they are either in cahoots or dumb or lying or all three!"

What I DO know about conspiracy theories is that they get attention and sell books.....

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Songster Bob
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:33 PM

There's something happening, but you don't know what it is,
Do you, Mr. Jones?

Now that we've had our requisite Bob Dylan reference, let's get down to brass tacks (or, as the anti-tax zealots would have it, "brass tax").

This guy is a nut. A Right-Whinge nut, but a nut. Less a nut than the guy who shot Dr. Tiller, and also less likely part of a conspiracy than that one, but still a nut.

But to see how this is playing out, all the Right-whingers on the air are claiming that he's a lefty, and that all the hate speech you hear is lefty in origin. Hell, they even have a book out, "Liberal Fascism," which claims that Nazi Germany was essentially liberal (after all, the party is "National Socialist," right)? Believe it or don't, but that's what is being peddled. Not many takers, of course, but the more they make those claims, the more they muddy the waters, and the more they are able to do that "dog whistle" thing, where key words are signals to those "in the know," but inaudible to the average Joe. The atmosphere is polluted with ad hominem attacks and skewed logic (liberal fascism?) and the society is lessened, made more toxic, with their poison.

And "you best double-plus right-think" is an example I had hoped I wouldn't see here.

I've had enough. I'm not going to leave or anything, but I won't take part in a discussion where people jump to conclusions or make off-hand belittling comments of the sort we've seen here.

Now that I've said that, it occurs to me that there are few other kinds of discussion when politics is involved. Sigh.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:51 PM

I'm with you, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:52 AM

Most guns, rifles and shotguns as well as handguns, were outlawed by the Weimar government in 1928. Hitler actually eliminated many of these restrictions several years after he came to power in 1933.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

"This guy is a nut. A Right-Whinge nut, but a nut."

                Songster Bob is right about that, but one has to wonder: how many 88 year old Right-Wing Nuts are out there. With nothing much left to lose, they could become a real tool for their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM

A scary question, Riginslinger, though I doubt if they're really that significant compared to the total of younger, more able-bodied, haters.
As a person who generally portrays religion as the root of all evil, did you happen to notice that von Brunn appears to be an anti-religious vicious hatemonger? Besides his antisemitism, he has characterized Christianity as an evil conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

"But I got the impression that she thought, if a _Black_ whacko had killed some _White_ guards, that would have been no big deal." Midchuck

My apologies. I obviously phrased my reaction badly. That is not at all what I (thought I) was implying. I had no thought at all of a Black whacko killing White guards. That's a bit of a stretch even though I wasn't clear on what I did mean.

What I thought I was saying is that it seems intolerable to me that this hatefilled old man was able to kill a member of a race that he hated, that he can now congratulate himself on his success.

On the other hand, if a Black man had been the means of the old man's death while stopping him in his mission that would have been a rich irony.

"I cannot express enough how deeply sorry I am it was Mr Johns, and not my father who lost their life," the shooter's Florida-based son said." from the article above

And that's all I have to say about that. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:00 AM

"...though I doubt if they're really that significant compared to the total of younger, more able-bodied, haters."

             To be sure there are many more younger ones, but the over-eighty guys might feel they have less to lose. They might be a few ticks away from becoming suicide bombers.


    "...von Brunn... has characterized Christianity as an evil conspiracy."


             It can certainly be used for evil purposes, and has been.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

I know yer heart, Eb, and most other folks do as well...

Beubear (out of purgatory)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Beauberry.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:43 PM

You have to go back to Huey Long in the 30's to find the last rightie that was assasinated

Pedantic correction - not quite true. It was in August 1967 that he American Nazi, George Lincoln Rockwell was assassinated. Mind you the man found guilty of the killing was another American Nazi, so it doesn't really undermine Bobert's basic point there.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 08:38 PM

George Wallace. Although he was shot in 1972 but didn't die until 1998, his paralysis from the gunshot would is considered to have contributed to his eventual death.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:44 PM

I wonder how many assissinations were caused by assualt rifles or the kinds of guns that the left-wing-looneys want to ban?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM

Spoken like a truly good southern Oregon survivalist, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:42 AM

Being accused of being a Southern Oregonian is a handle I'd wear proudly. "Survivalist" implies a life-style I'm not familiar with personally.
             President Kennedy was assassinated--if we are to believe the tabloids--with a rifle of World War I technology. In fact, I would think Oswald's rifle would fit the description of "the weapon of choice" for would-be political assassins, a bolt action rifle with modern optics, accurate to a 1,000 meters. Advancements in optics would have much more to do with a completed mission than the rifle itself, in my opinion.
             Probably the most discouraging thing about the people who want to ban guns is their unwillingness to familiarize themselves with the subject of which they are suppose to be talking. It's no different than the self-imposed ingorance of the pro-gun lobby suporters on the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:50 AM

"Lee Harvey Oswald used a 6.5 x 52 mm Italian Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle, serial number C2766. The rifle was sold as military surplus through Klein's Sporting Goods Company." according to Wiki

This is what I object to, Rig: "...the kinds of guns that the left-wing-looneys want to ban?"

Is that any better than "right-wing nuts"?

Surely there are better terms.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:00 AM

I really don't think that too many left wing lunies are as concerned about the type of guns that are available as they are about to whom these weapons are made available... That's the crux of our argument, Rigs... The assault weapon is just a side bar that is more of a distartion than anything else...

The issue here, as far as this left wing kunie" is concerned is a layer of transparancy, accountability and saftey training of gun owners...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

" Probably the most discouraging thing about the people who want to ban guns is their unwillingness to familiarize themselves with the subject of which they are suppose to be talking."

Familiarize in what way? Buy some? Take shooting lessons? Read all the posts from beardedbruce and several other 'knowledgeable' gun owners?
   How much do I need to know to add to my store of information about how many probable illegal weapons are out there? ...and how many legal ones are in the hands of folks who are barely competent? I also can look at the statistics of how many deaths & injuries (including suicides) occur each year as a result of of stupid or criminal USE of guns. I am also 'familar' with lax laws, such as in Virginia, that allow MORE stupid & criminal types to easily increase their collections and/or SELL them in other states nearby.....like right across the river in Maryland where *I* live, or in DC where the latest incident occured.

Familiarize? Perhaps YOU will tell me what more I need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

"lax laws, such as in Virginia, that allow MORE stupid & criminal types to easily increase their collections and/or SELL them in other states nearby.....like right across the river in Maryland where *I* live, or in DC where the latest incident occured."

The LAWS do NOT allow them to sell them in other states.

In fact they cannot even transport them THROUGH DC, legally.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:15 PM

"I really don't think that too many left wing lunies are as concerned about the type of guns that are available as they are about to whom these weapons are made available..."


                So Nancy Pelosi can drive around in an Abrams Tank, but we'll only let David Duke walk around with a sling-shot. I'd say Dick Cheney's got a problem.