BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

Subject: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:00 AM

Sometimes I reflect on how Mudcat thread conversations would be different if more people of color posted here or if these conversations were taking place on either a majority Black forum or a forum that had many more Black people and other people of color.

Take, for example, the current thread Dark Matter
thread.cfm?threadid=101707&messages=39 .

When I first read that title, I thought the topic of the discussion would be "dark skin color". However, it appears that the topic of that thread is actually the discovery of dark matter in space.

I've found the subject of dark matter in space to be interesting in and of itself. But for a number of reasons, the article which prompted the Mudcat thread on Dark Matter- http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/05/16/dark.matter.ring.reut/index.html -caused me to think about how invisible dark matter can be in the real world- and on Mudcat.

Take for example this longish excerpt from that article:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A hazy ring of dark matter spawned by a colossal cosmic crash eons ago offers the best evidence to date that vast amounts of this mysterious stuff reside in the universe, scientists said Tuesday.

Images taken by NASA's orbiting Hubble Space Telescope allowed astronomers to detect this ring of dark matter created by the collision of two galaxy clusters 5 billion light-years from Earth.

"This is the strongest evidence yet for the existence of dark matter," astronomer Myungkook James Jee of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore told reporters.

Astronomers believe dark matter -- as opposed to ordinary matter making up the stars, planets and the like -- comprises about 85 percent of the universe's material, but evidence of it has been difficult to come by.

Dark matter cannot be directly seen. It does not shine or reflect light, but astronomers infer its existence in galaxy clusters by observing how its gravity bends the light given off by even more faraway galaxies. They do not know what it is made of, but think it could be a kind of particle."

-snip-

I know that the first article had nothing whatsoever to do with race. But juxtapose that excerpt with this one from an editorial review of Ralph Ellison's book "Invisible Man":

"We rely, in this world, on the visual aspects of humanity as a means of learning who we are. This, Ralph Ellison argues convincingly, is a dangerous habit. A classic from the moment it first appeared in 1952, Invisible Man chronicles the travels of its narrator, a young, nameless black man, as he moves through the hellish levels of American intolerance and cultural blindness. Searching for a context in which to know himself, he exists in a very peculiar state. "I am an invisible man," he says in his prologue. "When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination--indeed, everything and anything except me."
http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Man-Ralph-Ellison/dp/0679732764

When I think of outer space & race, in relation to popular culture, one of the first things that pops into my mind is the Star Trek character Uhura.

As any fan of the American television series Star Trek knows, Uhura was a beautiful, dark skinned woman who was the communication commander on the original television series.

In its overview of the original Star Trek series, the author of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series
writes:

"At a time when racial segregation was still firmly entrenched in many areas of the United States, Roddenberry envisaged a multi-racial and mixed-gender crew, based on his assumption that racial prejudice and sexism would not exist in the 23rd century. He also included recurring characters from alien races, including Spock, who was half human and half Vulcan, united under the banner of the United Federation of Planets...

The second pilot introduced the main characters: Captain Kirk (William Shatner), chief engineer Lieutenant Commander Scott (James Doohan) and Lieutenant Sulu (George Takei); Sulu's title in this episode was Ship's Physicist (changed to Helmsman in subsequent episodes). Chief medical officer and the captain's confidante Dr. Leonard McCoy (DeForest Kelley) (a Dr. Piper was present on the pilot), Yeoman Janice Rand (Grace Lee Whitney) and communications officer Lieutenant Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) were introduced later. Roddenberry's inclusion of the Asian Sulu and black Uhura, both of them intelligent, well-spoken professionals, was a bold move when most television characters of the time were white and those who weren't were often presented in a highly stereotypical manner."

-snip-

While I certainly applaud Star Trek for including some non-stereotyped non-White characters, when I watched that series I do recall wondering where did all the other people of color go-long time passing? I asked this question since it seemed that, with the exception of Uhuru and Sulu, the rest of the crew of the Starship Enterprise was made up of White people. Okay, there were a few other nameless Black crew members scattered here and there in a some episodes of that original series. But, still, the crew was largely made up of White people.

Does that matter? Imo, Yes. I'm talking more than role models here, but I believe that role modeling is an important factor of why it matters that television shows are integrated with non-racially and ethnically stereotyped characters.

Also, does race matter and should one's racial identity matter while discussing racial and/or non-racial topics on Internet discussion forums?

Imo, sometimes yes and sometimes no. Sometimes the fact that a person posting on the Internet is of one race or another [or more than one race] can add context, perspective, information, authenticity, and insight to the discussion. There are other times when a person's race is of much lesser relevance or of no relevance at all to the discussion. Admittedly, it's not always easy to determine when being dark should or should not matter on the Internet and-in real life.

Imo, "Does being dark matter?" is a different question than "Should being dark matter?" I believe that, eradicating institutional racism should be one goal. Another goal should be recognizing race as a descriptor without ascribing any good or bad connotations or values to that descriptor. I don't believe that racial/ethnic colorblindness is an appropriate goal.

All this to say, sometimes I think that being dark should matter, and sometimes I think that being dark shouldn't matter.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:56 AM

Well, I think you have done a lot of work on this subject.
Maybe I can tell a story, which may be relevant here?
I worked for nine years before I finally went to college. That experience may have been on my side, when my fellow students elected me Site President for the whole three years I was there. I enjoyed representing students through the student union and I took the job very seriously. Probably because of my experiences at boarding school, I have always had a particularly short fuse on the subject of bullying. During my time I was involved in cases, which involved bullying in which race and sexuality were factors. I did not feel qualified to become a spokesman for either gay people or black people. Both groups are perfectly capable of speaking out on their own behalf. When they were bullied, I backed them to the hilt. All the people I represented deserved decent treatment.
At the going down dinner, I was awarded college colours, which rather moved me. A well meaning young woman upset me more than she could have imagined by saying, "Well done Alan. You really stuck up for us blacks." I was shocked and upset, even though the remark was well meant and came from a very pleasant and intelligent woman. You see, I had never primarily thought of her as being "black". She was a nice person, a good student and she deserved to enjoy her time there as much as anyone else did. I was (and still am) very sad to think that she was hindered by malice and ignorance. My eyes are misting up even now, twenty-three years later.
What do I think? You must know now.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:27 AM

I think that it is what is on the inside that should matter more.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:13 PM

Exactly Jacqui. I always liked Paul Robeson's statement that a soul has no colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:18 PM

Have you any idea how many people with dark skin use the Mudcat?    and how would you know anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:47 PM

I've spent a lot of time in chat rooms and exchanging PMs on a Black Gospel Music website. On there, I guess I could ask, does being light matter? For the most part it doesn't, because I've made several friends there and color is rarely an issue. Or even commented on. There was one person in the Chatroom who attacked me violently because I am white, and told me I shouldn't come to the site. But, that was a single exception, and all of my friends came to my defense.

All of your points are well expressed and taken, Azizi. I think that here on Mudcat, folks iz folks, pretty much. I could also ask does being Christian matter? Not a whole lot of Christians on here.
My answer to that would be "no." Yeah, there are always a few threads about folks what believe in God, or Christians, but I don't pay them no mind. For starters, I can understand where the anger toward Christians comes from, having a fair amount of it myself for those who are self-righteous and use Christianity as a tool for grabbing power. I'm quite happy here. If people can put up with me, I can put up with them. Should be able to, even if they can't...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:22 PM

Well Azizi, you have asked quite a question. I've never seen it expressed in quite that way. I've 'almost' started to type several times, but decided I wasn't ready to approach it in the multiple levels I think it requires. The more I think about it, the more important it feels.
I am fairly sure I won't approach it in all the usual ways. For one thing, as you indicate, one needs to consider the nuances between 'does' it matter? and 'should' it matter?....and why?...and to whom?...and when?

   There are as many shades of meaning in some of the questions as there are shades of 'dark'..(Once in my life I met a man who was actually black)

Before I get in over my head and end up writing a 12 page introduction...*grin*...let me ponder a bit more. (I have a major craft show in a couple of weeks, so I am not focused on Mudcat heavily)...but I'll see what I can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:12 PM

June, 1963, Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri. The Platoon Sergeant is addressing my Basic Training Platoon (1-C-2-2) for the first time:

Now, some of you guys are white and come from the city. Some of you guys are white and come from the country. Some of you guys are negroes and come from the city, and some are negroes who come from the country.

I'm not going to put up with race stuff here. To me, you're all a bunch of dickheads and you're all green. Now start getting squared away.

Presence or lack of melanin has never meant much to me or my family. You're either a decent human being or you're a shit. Simple.

(By the way, one of the "negroes", a really quiet kid from Alabama, did some of the best hand jive I've ever heard. When he got going the whole company -- 210 men -- would stand around and enjoy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bert
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:20 PM

...sometimes I think that being dark should matter, and sometimes I think that being dark shouldn't matter...


Personally I think that being dark shouldn't matter. When I worked in Iran I was the only white guy on the site (although some of the Iranians might disagree). One time (after about six months on the remote site) we went into a bar in town and there were a few English guys there. It was quite strange, they seemed like foreigners to me.

Of course that shouldn't have mattered either.

But we might as well get used to being dark because the dark genes are dominant so the whole world will probably end up dark anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:39 PM

Thanks to all who have posted thus far.

alanabit, I very much appreciate you sharing your story about your college days. With regard to the girl who thanked you because she felt that you "really stuck up for us blacks." I'm wondering why you were shocked and upset because of her comment.

I recall that you don't live in the USA. Would you please share where this incident took place? I ask that because maybe that information is pertinent as to why you had the reaction to the girl's statement. Could it be that "black" was a derogatory group referent where and when this occurred and it surprised you that the girl used that term to refer to other students who had some African ancestry?

Btw, I believe you when you wrote that "I had never primarily thought of her as being "black". Of course, imo, "primarily" is the operative word in that sentence. And/But also it's my experience and viewpoint that when you are a within a majority setting and you are a member of a minority group-whether it be a racial, ethnic, religious, gender, or otherwise minority-membership in that particular group is often more defining to you than if you were a member of that group and always lived and moved and had your being around other people who were also members of that group. For example, it seems to me that largely in the absence of non-Black people, being part of the Black race not as much a focus among Black people in Africa as it is among people of African descent elsewhere where Black people are in a minority {because there are fewer of us then there are of them}. In African nations, instead of the catch-all Black groups you have groups who differentiate themselves and who are differentiated by others by ethnic, religious, and cultural differences. While it is true that there are many ethnic, religious, economic class, and cultural sub-groups within the catch-all grouping called "Black Americans", I believe that most Black Americans consider these ethnic, religious, and cultural differences to be vastly unimportant in comparison with the fact that all of us have experienced institutional racism and also have experienced or may experience personal racism because of our Black African ancesty.

I don't see anything wrong with persons defining themselves as members of a [or more than one] racial, or ethnic, or religious or gender orientation group. That act of self-definition may be "just" a statement of fact. But it seems to me that the problem is that people within and/or outside of that group make positive or negative value judgements about that group compared to others, and personally or institutionally act on that positive and negative valuation.

And unfortunately, I suppose I should have said "problems" instead of "problem".

Be that as it may, alanabit, again I thank you for your sharing your story. I appreciate it and I appreciate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:45 PM

I'm spending a lot of my internet time these days at forums, chatrooms, message boards, etc., converned with the very slow and difficult recovery of my city, New Orleans, from the levee failures of August '05.

One of the things I really like about our evolving on-line communities is that, in many cases, you don't know (and don't need to know) who's black and who's white. Indeed, there are some familiar correspondents (who use "handles" or pseudonyms rather than their names) whose gender I'm not even sure of.

You can certainly tell who is a homeowner and who is not, who is living back in town and who's still stuck in exile somewhere, and of course it's easy to see who's articulate and presumably educated and who has difficulty expressing themselves. Most of the people seem to me to be "pretty much just like me," which I might mistakenly assume would include being Caucasian. But I know that at least half of these neighbors are African-American.

The city was 67% black before the storm, including very many educated middle-class homeowner types, so ~ even allowing for the difference of racial representation among income groups, differences in computer access and interest, etc. ~ about half of us who find ourselves in this crazy situation are statistically likely to be black. The folks I meet in person these days at various civic meetings belong to all races, too. Of course, in person, I can't help but see how "dark" a given individual may or may not be. When we "meet" on the internet, on the other hand, pigmentation is not an issue at all, except when specifically under discussion.

Race-related topics do occasionally arise, of course, but when the subject at hand is corruption, broken promises, or on the other hand praise and thanks for volunteer help, etc., etc., etc., it is VERY nice to exist and communicate in a "world" that is truly color-blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:55 PM

A somewhat dated article, from the November-December issue of American Scientist may be of interest, even if a bit off the "mood" of the thread thus far.

"Black" and "White" Not Quite Right appeared in a marginalia column. Some things at this magazine's site require special access, but I believe this one should be "publicly available."

The article must be read pretty carefully, since it really applies only to the Brazilian population studied. The "killer statement" - out of context a bit here - was:

"..., there were no significant differences in the African genomic ancestry of black and white study participants."

While I didn't find the result surprising, especially in context, knowing as much as possible about the reality may be useful when faced with those adherent to unreal beliefs.

For reference, publication of the full study report is cited as appearing in the January 2003 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:56 PM

I am following this thread, but I'd like to think about it for a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:23 PM

Here's a true story.

My 30ish old daughter owns a Volkswagan Jhetta. When she takes her car for service, she goes about 20 miles outside the city of Pittsburgh for that service. This past Monday, while she was waiting for the repairman to finish working on her car, she decided to walk back down the road a bit to an ice cream shop that she had seen. She told me that the only people in the shop when she entered was the female salesperson and a man who "kept staring at her". My daughter said that the salesperson was very curt and abrupt with her, and the man kept staring at her. My daughter bought her ice cream and left. When my she got back to the car dealership, my daughter went to pay her bill. While she was doing that my daughter-who is a very gregarious person-told that female salesperson about her experience in the ice-cream store. The salesperson said "We don't get many people like you around here. That's probably why that man was staring at you and that woman was like that with you." My daughter told me that it took her a minute before she understood that the woman meant "Black people" when she said "people like you". In response to that woman's comments, my daughter said something like "Oh". She then paid her bill, and left. When she told me this story, my daughter said that she hadn't even thought about race while she was in that area because the people at the car dealership had always been super nice to her.

I share this story to say that there was a time when Black people taught their children to be alert and aware {beware} of prejudiced people and racists when they go to an unfamiliar setting. I admit that I haven't schooled my daughter in this regard as much as I probably should have. Unfortunately, because there are still people who are prejudiced and there are still people who are racist, if people are raised to not consider their racial identity, they may be putting themselves at risk.

Imo, this is an example of when race shouldn't matter, but unfortunately does. Of course, the same situation could have happened in reverse {meaning a White person in a non-White setting}.

All this to say that it seems to me that we have a lot more work to do before we reach the point where differences never make any difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,blindlemonsteve
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:26 PM

I´m with peace on this one, gonna see how it goes for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:28 PM

Well, while generally being somewhat satisfied with the cross section of thought and philosophy expressed here in Mudland, I personally would welcome more black members and the perspectives that these members could bring to the forum...

On the "poverty" thread, for instance, since there is such a high percentage of black (dark) folk living in poverty compared to white (light) folks I would have loved to have had more or even a single black (dark) member involved in that discussion... Okay, there may have been a black (dark) member but, if so, that member did no identify his or herself as such... Now I am not saying that a black (dark) member would have brought a different perspective, mind you, but if had there been enough such members, I belive the discussion would have been enhanced...

But it's not just about povery but lots of issues that a somewhat segretgated society faces...

Actually, truth be known, I did agree with Bill Clinton's call for a discussion about race... I think it is overdue... I am encouraged with the "deep regrets" for their involvement in slavery that Virginia and Maryland have voted upon but don't think the discussion ends there...

Okay, maybe I am wanderin' off topic with that but....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:32 PM

Actually, I'm thinking more along the line of linguistics as a method of finding out the 'real' stuff about both subcultures and cultures. It is, imo, impossible for language NOT to impact culture (the idea is not new), certainly to respond to the direction a culture takes and maybe direct the path a culture takes. Right now I'm not settled as to how best to say what I'm thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:37 PM

One of the things I really like about our evolving on-line communities is that, in many cases, you don't know (and don't need to know) who's black and who's white. Exactly!

A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent.

I don't know how, but I think I have literally become colour-blind when it comes to seeing what colour people are. I have had to ask whoever I am with to tell me what they see as sometimes I cannot tell if someone is black, white or anything in-between. It is a curious phenomenon which started a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:39 PM

In Minorca and in parts of Wales I have been made to feel very unwelcome purely due to my English accent. I think that just about every one of us has some vestige of prejudice lurking somewhere. It's how we deal with it when it arises in us or in others.

There is a Stephen King book where he lets on, halfway through the story, that one of the characters is black. That brought me up with a real start and made me think about my perception of people. I was also made to think when discussing matching my daughter with a young man I worked with, my 'works baby' Nigel who was black. My stepdaughter said "Mmmm, brown babies!" and that brought me up with a start. Then I had to face the fact that there could be some prejudice there.

I hope that, nowadays, I take people on what they are like, not what the outer skin looks like. I know some real excuses for human beings who are of the same racial group as me and some of different racial groups that I am honoured to have as good friends. My life has, I hope, taught me to pause before making a judgement based on race or colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:41 PM

Ahhhhh, one other thing...

I reckon if their were more black (dark) folks here in Mudville one might be able to start a blues thread without it fallin' off the board in less than 24 hours...

(But, Bobert, how can you say that??? Not all black folk like the blues...)

No, not all black folks like the blues but I'm stickin' with my theory...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:45 PM

Azizi: I think the reason I was so shocked and upset was that it went without saying for me that this young woman, whom I shall call "Betty" here, was never thought of by anyone (including herself) as being part of a minority. The incident happened at a college in the North West of Britain. Betty was a talented, intelligent, attractive and industrious student. She had lovely manners and was popular with the other students.
In her final year, she received threatening letters, with disgusting insults from another student. I believe the main issue was one of sexual jealousy. However, the fact that she had Sri Lankan origins was seen as a lever by the bully. The letters were horribly racist. I was actually told of these letters and shown them by the management of the college. Unfortunately, Betty would not make a complaint or approach me directly. Officially I did not know about it. So there was nothing I could do. I believe I would have found and proved the culprit had I been in a position to do so.
I think that a lot of what comes over as racism is simply the identification of a physical characteristic to identify someone, whom one is in dispute with. For instance, if a fat man shoves me, I might call him, "A fat bastard". Of course, the problem I have is not that he is fat, but that he has shoved me. However, in the heat of the moment I would shout out the first (and possibly unkindest) thing I could to identify my antagonist.
Had Betty's tormentor been exposed as a racist and a writer of hate mail, I have no doubt at all that she herself would have been shunned by most of the other students. Racism was not even partly respectable at our college and most students despised it. That is probably why a series of racist insults came as such a shock to Betty - and indeed myself. First and foremost she was a fellow student - and it would never have occurred to most of us to identify her in any other way.
I do not know what Betty's reasons were for not coming to me directly. She may have been so humiliated by the horrible content of the letters that she did not feel able to tell me. At any rate, I was very upset at not being able to act and I was very upset that she was not able to enjoy her final months at college because of a cowardly bully. I suppose it upset me a lot because it showed me very clearly that there were limitations to what I was able to do about bullying. I expect that Betty has long since got over it. I feel choked about it to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:53 PM

Just a couple of few thoughts:

I have found that like minded people don't have to look alike.

**

One of the things I like best about the Internet is that people who have similar situational needs and/or similar interests can "meet", share, support each other, and work together even though they may be miles apart. I also very much like the fact that via the Internet people can "meet" and converse with people from different cultures, and learn about those cultures. I think both these things are a plus. And both of these reasons are why I like Mudcat.   

**

Here's another true story:

Some years ago I went to visit a woman who lived in Minnesota who I had met because both of us were members of a national board. Every year the board met in the urban city of Minneapolis-St. Paul. However, this woman lived some distance from that area in a more rural community. She invited me to come one day early to the board meeting and stay with her. When she invitated me, the woman shared with me that there were very few people who were members of a minority group who lived in her area. Because the woman and I had platonically hit it off, I accepted her invitation, and she met me at the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport and drove me to her town. At one point during the next day, the woman had to go to work, and she suggested that I take a walk to a particular part of her town where there were arts & crafts shops. I did so. At one shop, I rounded the corner and almost bumped into a very dark skinned woman. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that she was of East Indian descent. The woman looked at me and I looked at her, and we both smiled. Then we nodded our heads at each other and went on our way.

I share this story to say that sometimes there is a kinship among people of minority groups particularly in settings where they are "the only ones". True, I may have read more in that smile than was really meant, but imo, that East Indian woman and I recognised that we shared something that the White board member and I could never share. Perhaps I am reading more into it, but imo, the East Indian woman and I shared the fact that we are members of a minority group within a majority population {or what we experienced as a majority population}. And that fact meant {means} a whole host of things including the fact that we had emotionally survived the poison of prejudice and had grown stronger in spite of those experiences.

Does being dark matter? In that instance, with that East Indian woman and me-an African American woman who is far lighter than she was-yes, I believe even for that short moment of recognition, it did matter to us. And I think that was a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:57 PM

Since I wrote and edited my previous post, Azizi has related the story of her daughter and the man in the ice cream shop. It looks like we are on the same wavelength here.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:50 PM

Since, here, no-one can know the skin colour or ethnicity of another unless that other chooses to reveal it, to whom does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:18 PM

JohnInKansas, thanks for psoting that link to that http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/28341 article.

Here's an excerpt from that article that I found particularly interesting:

"When the DNA samples were analyzed, decoded and compared to the subject's cor [skin color], the Brazilian population showed a surprising deviation from the earlier Porto [European] and São Tomé [African] control experiments. In samples from both urban centers and rural districts, the distribution of African alleles was the same for the "black" and "intermediate" Brazilians: Both groups' average AAI values fell between the European and African ends of the spectrum. There was wide variation in the samples—some of the individuals in these groups even showed AAI values in the same range as the Portuguese controls; others resembled the São Tomé Africans. In other words, racial appearance had no relationship to the degree of genetic identity with either the Europeans or Africans. According to Pena "We were surprised at the very poor correlation, but we should not have been. From an ancestry point of view there is almost complete mixture [between Europeans and Africans in the population]."
-snip-

Here's another excerpt from that article:

The white Brazilians also showed a high proportion of African allelic markers, although the distribution was not as pronounced as in the black and intermediate groups. The reason for this became apparent when the identity of the markers was considered—the OCA2 gene, part of the test battery, encodes a protein that regulates pigment production, meaning that the marker itself contributed to the phenotype. When this site was excluded from the AAI calculation, there were no significant differences in the African genomic ancestry of black and white study participants.

Does the same genetic pattern exist in the United States, which also has a large population of African descent? Probably not, says Mark Shriver at Penn State University, whose lab developed the marker set used by Pena. As Shriver points out, "there was no such thing as a one-drop [of blood] rule in Brazil," meaning that Brazil never developed the emphasis on ancestry over appearance that is found in its North American neighbor. As a result, mixed-race marriage per se did not carry the same social stigma in Brazil as it did in the United States. Pena agrees with Shriver's characterization of racial genetics in the U.S., but adds that more work is needed to distinguish the social and genetic elements of race."

-snip-

If such a study were done in the USA, my unscientific prediction would be that there would be plenty "White" people who would have African allelic markers. I seem to recall reading that such a study was done in South Africa some time ago, and some White South Africans were found to have African markers...

The American definition of who is Black {in this context,
I mean "African American"} is that a person who has any Black African ancestry is Black. Another way to say this is that "one drop of 'Black blood' makes a person Black".

Imo, this definition is at its core racist as it considers Black African ancestry to be a contaminant. One way that this "one drop of Black blood" makes a person Black" definition could be challenged and eradicated is for those people of mixed White/Black ancestry whether it be first generation or not to declare that they are White no matter how dark their skin color is and not matter how tightly curled their hair is.

However, since visual clues are so heavily used by people in the United States {and elsewhere?} to determine other people's racial category, having dark skinned people declare that they are White, might get very interesting.

But since racial self-identification has been the recent practice at census times and at other times, as long as mixed race people who are declaring their Whiteness aren't rejecting Blackness because they consider it less than White, I'm all for this approach.

But then again, there is power in numbers. And since so many of us are mixed race, politically African Americans would suffer if droves of people who are now thought of [and who think of themselves]
as being Black left to join a White or a Mixed Race category.

So, I may need to re-think that "declare yourself White or Mixed Race" approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:45 PM

This is all very interesting but I too must think more. I believe the Somali people (of colour) are NOT negroid? And consider themselves to be 'white'?

Why is it that we can note hair or eye colour in passing, or in a description, but not skin colour? To me, just noting the skin colour is not racist, but deciding who or what that person is based on skin colour alone is.

All blondes are dumb. All red heads are sexy. Polish people are 'stupid' Irish people are drunks, etc. All are just as racist as deciding who and what a person is based on skin colour.

Proably more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:15 PM

Azizi: That's twice in a week that this subject has come up. Hope everything's okay there.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:31 PM

So, my Board member, Andy, says, "My uncle and aunt haven't voted since Kennedy was shot. They don't think it's worth it anymore." And I try to argue with him, and finally another Board member, Roger, says, "Andy, do you know what would happen if all of the Hispanics in Idaho, or even a majority, would vote? We'd have a Democratic State House and Senate and Governor, and the people in Washington would be Hispanic, too!" And Andres Guerra replied, "I'm a journalist and an activist and I keep telling them that, but I'm starting to think they're right."

So Andy's sort of bronze colored and I'm blond and fair skinned and so's Roger (who came back two years ago from his Fulbright) and so what? I learned a long time ago everybody's pink inside, and Jerry Falwell's blood and Adolph Hitler's blood was just as red as that of Shaka Zulu and Dr. King.

Or mine. Or yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:41 PM

I think the lack of Black involvement on the forum reflects the lack of Black involvement in White male controlled cultural activities in general.

Black feminist Patrician Hill Collins is much more articulate about it however:

"Because elite White men control Western structures of knowledge validation, their interests pervade the themes, paradigms, and epistemologies of traditional scholarship...Black feminists thought's core themes of work, family, sexual politics, motherhood, and political activism rely on paradigms that emphasize the importance of intersecting oppressions in shaping the US matrix of domination. But expressing these themes and paradigms has not been easy because Black women have had to struggle against White male interpretations of the world." (pp 251-252, Black Feminist Thought.)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:42 PM

I am a person of color.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:44 PM

Yes, Rap...we all bleed red. That really is all that matters. Dogs, cats, elephants, and yes, even apes and chimps bleed red. So THERE! Chongo!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:47 PM

Collins' quote would work equally well for women of any colour...we've all laboured under the oppression of a patriarchal world made up of mostly white males. (Sorry, guys, present company excepted.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:17 AM

hmm, if only Obama were a woman.

Oh well, he will best be served to be VP to Hillary for 8 years so he can be President later rather than sooner.

wait 8 years

"That way even the racists in this country will feel comfortable that a black man isn't going to free all the prisoners or be appreciably different from any other leader."
woman black historian of Moyer's journal tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: hilda fish
Date: 19 May 07 - 05:36 AM

I've been told so many times "Oh we are all Australian" which is a bit of a problem if you are Indigenous with a history and culture that was denied for so long along with our humanity, right to be citizens in our own country. The generic "Australian" becomes another way of making us invisible in the same way that saying "we are all American" denied the Darkness that connected to the Slave history, lynch mobs and the history and psychological/political relationship to the broader American society that this engendered.Things are getting better here, but still our history, our connection to land, our identity, are defined through a European construction. Dark is part of who we are and with that acknowledgement exists our history, our culture, our politics and so on. It is always amazing that people can say "oh she is Italian" or "she is Greek" without not only no problem, but a great deal of interest. Yet Dark (Blak) identity seems to be one of those areas which is resiled from, "oh she is human like the rest of us" as though there is a need to be reductive when colour becomes part of the equation. Interesting story: whenever I have gone through customs or anything in the past I get stopped and often searched. I've been told it is because I have a 'Middle Eastern" appearance. Since I've had my hair blonded I have had NO TROUBLE AT ALL!!! So what the hell is THAT all about? Dark or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 06:25 AM

Thank you, Hilda Fish, for so succiently & so clearly articulating much of what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:11 AM

To "lighten" this thread a bit, perhaps I should note that the title for this thread came from the honored Mudcat tradition of engaging in play on words for thread titles. Thus the thread "Dark Matters"
-whose link is given in my first post-resulted in this thread title "Does Being Dark Matter?"

In the context of this thread, the question "Does Being Dark Matter?" really is asking "Does race matter?"

As I have stated throughout this thread, I believer that there are times when race does matter and there are times when it doesn't.
And with regard to a separate but related question, in my opinion, there are also times when race should matter, and there are times when race shouldn't matter.

To give [other] examples when I believe race does and should matter, I'd like to turn your attention to the genre of folk culture that is my special interest at Mudcat-children's rhymes. First, here's just a bit of background-I've been collecting & "studying" children's rhymes since the mid 1980s. My collection work has primarily been through direct contacts I have with African American children in the Pittsburgh, PA area {mostly as a result of an after-school children's program I started in 1997, and through examples that I have gotten from various Internet websites including Mudcat, http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php ; and my website http://www.cocojams.com/ .

One of the things that I've concluded from my collection & analysis of children's rhymes [including reading Iona & Peter Opies' books on children's rhymes and other such books] is that race often-but not always-is a factor in which types of rhymes children recite, which vesions of specific rhymes children recite, and how children perform the rhymes that they recite. I have also found that the racial identity of the population from which a rhyme originated also provides information about the context of the rhyme and the meaning of slang and other words & phrases found in that rhyme.

For these reasons {and to gather information that "tests" this hypothesis}, particularly on Mudcat and on my website Cocojams, when people share examples of children's rhymes, I've encouraged them to include information about the race of the children who recited the example along with other demographical information such as gender, decade the rhyme was recited, and geographical location.

Though there has been a growing number of people on both these websites who provide demographical information, most people don't include their race or the race of their informants. I think one reason for this is that nowadays-at least in the USA-many people think that it is a sign of racial insensitivity if they make any reference what so ever about another person's racial identity or even their own racial identity. In this "kumbayah racial colorblind" stance, it's a no no to even refer to race or skin color as a means of describing a person.

In spite of the prevailing viewpoints that "race doesn't matter" and "it's not socially correct to publicly mention race", since I've started asking for this information, I have seen an increase on my website and on Mudcat of the number of people who will "buck the tide" and include information about the race of the person [usually themselves] who recite or have recited the children's rhymes that they are sharing.

In my next post to this thread, I'll share a few examples of children's rhymes where race appears to matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:38 AM

Here's a Mudcat repost of a children's rhyme which mentions race

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Pazzion - PM
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:23 AM

I remember
Down Down Baby Down Down the rollercoaster
Sweet Sweet Baby I'll never let you go
Shimmy shimmy cocoa puff shimmy shimmy I
Shimmy shimmy cocoa puff shimmy shimmy I
I like coffee I like tea
I like a colored boy and he likes me
so step back white boy
you don't cause a cool colored boy gonna bet your behind
He'll beat it once he'll beat it twice
He'll beat it beat it beat it
So let's get the rhythm of the head
Ding dong
Sho' got the rhythm of the head head
Ding dong
Let's get the rhythm of the hands
(Clap,Clap)
Sho' got the rhythm of the hands
(Clap,Clap)
Let's get the rhythm of the feet
(Stomp, Stomp)
Sho' got the rhythm of the feet
(Stomp, Stomp)
Let's get the rhythm of the Hot Dog (While doing the snake)
Sho' got the rhythm of the Hot Dog
Ding dong, clap,clap,stomp,stomp,Hot Dog

-snip-

It seems to me that the race of the person reciting this rhyme would be pertinent. That person doesn't have to be non-White, but lines that mention race certainly suggest to me that these additions to the standard lyrics for this rhyme came from someone who is non-White.

"Traditional" versions of "Down Down Baby" {also known as Shimmy Shimmy Coco Puff" or some such spelling} had no mention of race and weren't confrontational. Instead, these "traditional" vesions focused on being down by the rollercoaster doing some "shimmy shimmy let's get the rhythm" motions. At least that's the way I remember this rhyme from my childhood in New Jersey in the 1950s.

Here's the earliest example that I've collected of a confrontational version of "Down Down" Baby:

Down, down, baby down by the roller coaster
Sweet, sweet baby I'll never let you go

Shemie, shemie coco butter, shemie shemie pop
I like coffee, I like tea, I like a black boy and he likes me
So step back white boy, you don't shine
I'll get the black boy to beat your behind

Last night and the night before
I met my boyfriend at the candy store
He bought me ice cream he bought me cake
He brought me home with a belly ache

Mama, mama, I feel sick
Call the doctor, quick, quick, quick
Doctor, doctor, will I die
Close your eyes and count to five
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, I'm Alive!
-Tonya T. {African American female}, memories of her childhood in Crawfordville, Georgia {1979 -1987}

-snip-

A Latina woman in New York sent me a version of this rhyme from her childhood in the 1980s which include the "I like a colored boy and he likes me" line but doesn't include the "step back white boy etc/beat your behind" lines.

If interested, you can read that example and other examples as well as my comments about these rhymes on http://www.cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes_example_0104.htm and on
thread.cfm?threadid=81350&messages=187#1494664

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:37 AM

Correction, that last link was meant to be thread.cfm?threadid=81350&messages=187#1921700

Also, you may be interested in reading Mo The Caller's and my comments in that same thread about the use of the group referent "spades".

And because Mudcat conversations are never really over [unless the thread is closed], anyone who wants to could add their comments to that discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:21 PM

I came to the conclusion, long ago, that although the colour of a person's skin, or her/his ethnic affiliation, may be very important to that person it is none of my business and should have no effect on my dealings with her/him.

One thing which does concern me about this thread, though, is its 'killjoy' nature. The way in which a thread, which promised to be about fascinating 'cosmic things', like dark matter, turned into a thread about racism rather put my back up. I detect an element of the school of thought that opines that we should not even consider the wider Universe whilst cruelty and injustice exists in the human sphere. My own viewpoint is that an understanding of our place in the Universe gives us a better perspective on attitudes such as racism and reveals just how stupid, petty and ignorant such attitudes are.

And 'Star Trek' was only ever a soap opera with rudimentary SF trappings. The writers of this 'epic' consistently failed to think their plot devices through and were only really interested in the contrived 'conflicts' between their 2-dimensional characters. Another example, in my book, of narrow, parochial thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:40 PM

One of my thoughts: Being dark matters when 'someone' makes it matter.

If someone employs discrimination to rate people negatively, OR uses 'affirmative action' to do positive things for a minority, it matters...to BOTH sides...in fact, it creates 'sides'. Any time a newscaster makes a statement like "Tiger Woods is the 1st Black golfer to ...." he has injected 'mattering' into a situation, whether it should be there or not.

Any time a person who IS dark...or any hue... accentuates notice of themselves AS dark, they make it matter. This can be as simple as wearing some form of 'traditional' clothing associated with their origins, or using vernacular and accents in speech, or participating in a festival celebrating their heritage....etc.
'Mattering' can be positive or negative, depending on how & when it is called up....(by either side[by which I mean by those OF the group, or those outside the group...I don't necessarily mean 'side' as enemies])...obviously, BOTH sides sometimes make color 'matter' at INappropriate times....and won't always agree on when his is.

You see why I hesitated commenting? It requires constant disclaimers and clarifications of terms and context to avoid misunderstandings.

I would love to live in a world where NOTHING mattered except getting along and respecting people according to behavior and shared interests....but people, by their very nature, classify themselves AND others by easily identifiable characteristics, and thus tend to MAKE differences, including being dark, matter even in areas where it should not.

I knew a woman once who worked in Head Start, the program to help pre-kindergarten kids. Someone asked her whether one of her clients was black.....she had to stop for a second and 'think' about it. She genuinely didn't classify her clients that way, and was as 'color-blind' as anyone I even knew....but this is not common.

I mentioned Tiger Woods above. Yes, he was the first 'dark' golfer to do various things, and newscasts often make that 'matter', even though his mother was Asian. You never hear him described as the first half-Asian golfer to do something. Yeah...'dark' matters when it is being constantly referred to. (Tiger hates the reference...)

In many ways, Azizi, YOU are saying being dark matters by noting the many songs and children's games from the African-American tradition...and sometimes just from the African sources. Just as Welsh or Scots or Irish folks note their traditions and language. By doing this you both cherish and celebrate a heritage, and in some ways promote continued differences. It is VERY difficult to say how much of this is positive and beneficial and how much it keeps race & color unnecessarily injected into a world where they are both matters of pride and issues of conflict every day.


(I ought to go back an rewrite all that 3 times before posting...but...my shop calls)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Alice
Date: 19 May 07 - 01:10 PM

I remember working with a Japanese American graphic artist when we were the staff artists at the University. We had great conversations on the job while we worked. One I remember was about identifying and being identified by being a member of a group, whether that is Catholic, white, female, Japanese, American, Irish or whatever. It "matters" to know someone who has walked in your shoes, experienced the way people respond to the group with which you are identified, can relate to your life experience because they have shared the same experiences. Does it matter in what way? Appearance doesn't define us in some ways but it does in others, as people definitely still have prejudices, and we will have life experiences because of other people's prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 02:05 PM

"Does being dark matter?"

The question is a tough one because when I read 'dark' I think different in the context of the question.

When I was young many decades ago, people with physical challenges of various sorts were perceived to be very different in that they were not seen as 'complete' humans. It took years and years for enough of society to appreciate that all beings have humanity, spirit, soul, and all beings have an inalienable right to be treated with dignity. However, laws are not sufficient to change the treatment people receive from others. Schools have been awesome in that regard: having special needs kids interact with peers. Acceptance is not automatic, but acceptance does come eventually. The acknowledgement that public buildings should be accessible for people in wheel chairs was important because it then allowed inclusion and exposure and eventually enough familiarity to produce acceptance. That is important.

When people are 'allowed' to be strangers in their own country, they will be strangers. When the decisions are being made, and you (whoever you are) do not have a seat at the table nor a voice in the process, well--how would that make you feel?

Ghettos are a normal initial phenomenon when large groups of people move to another country. A study I read many years ago show that in the City of Montreal there were districts that contained say Jews who had newly come to Canada. As they developed an economic viability within the greater culture surrounding them, they moved from the district they lived in and sought better housing in more up-scale neighbourhoods. As the old district emptied, the next group would move in. (The group that did was Greek. And now they too have moved on to other areas.)

It is natural to seek others who speak your initial language, share your cultural experiences, eat the same food. After three generations, that all changes, and sassimilation because a fact of life.

So, that prompts a question that ties to the threads on poverty and affirmative action: If a country is ghetto-ized for longer than three generations, is that country practising prejudice or is the practise so institutionalized that only those at the bottom of the pile--those with the least voice/influence--know they are there?

Does being dark matter? Yes, IMO, and the reasons it still does after six or seven generations raises a few ugly questions. Who has not been invited to the table, and why have they not been invited?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:20 PM

"and sassimilation because a fact of life. "

S/B 'and assimilation becomes a fact of life.'

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:49 PM

Peace,

a person could assume by your use of the word "assimilation" and the phrase "sitting at the table" that you think that the groups of people who previously were "unwelcome" have no impact or influence on the systems that they "join" and that they bring nothing of value to the table. But that isn't what occurs and I don't think that what you meant, or is it?

I believe that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

{Feel free to substitute a better mathematical or scientific quote or theorum or whatever for what I'm trying to say}.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:51 PM

Of course I think that people 'new' to a country have someting important to 'bring to the table', but if they are made to feel unwelcome then their views aren't going to be heard where it's necessary, are they?

I think there is institutionalized racism at work. I thought I made that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:52 PM

And with that I'm off this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:54 PM

I just found a post from 2001 in a thread about 'social activism'...
   I will C&P it here, as it is one of the most telling and scary anecdotes I know.
I'm not sure if it goes beyond the bounds of what Azizi asked for, but I can't get it out of my head.

(By the way..the 'Mac' who told me the story was VERY aware of various ethnic groups and had the ability to gain the confidence of and learn about them as close to the 'inside' as a white man could."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
".....In the mid-60s, I was active in civil rights..even to the point of going to Mississippi for voter registration marches..(lots of varied stories there!) But this is a different 'view' of the subject.

....I was talking to a friend in Kansas (Mac) about the situation, and wondering how men could be so mean etc., to allow an entire race to be subjugated...so HE told me about his grandfather......seems the old man was a farmer in Oklahoma, and had black field hands working for him, and had a reputation of being 'too' good to them, giving them decent pay and extra consideration. So...when the civil rights noise started, some neighbors were talking to Mac's grandfather about how to deal with 'uppity' blacks who had the temerity to want to vote and ride in the front of the bus, etc.

"I suppose you are all for givin' 'em equal rights and such", one of the guys said sarcastically to the old man.

"Nope", he replied, "I think we should keep things just like they are." (paraphrased)

"Well!", said the questioner, "I thought you were a liberal do-gooder...so you agree with the rest of us, huh? I'm glad to hear you don't want the damn N*****S getting too uppity, and........."

At this the old man stopped him..."No, you don't understand. It ain't like I don't think they've been treated unfairly, I just don't want to change things."

"Well, why not?"

"It's simple," said the old man," If somebody had stood on MY neck for 300 years, and then stepped back and said,"OK, you can get up now", I know what'd be the first thing I'd do when I got up!"

...it is a rare man who sees that view of the issue...and to this day, it makes me wonder how close to the truth he was....."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has been 35 years since Mac told me that story, and I am still mulling over all the implications of the various attitudes involved....but they ALL made things 'matter'.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:13 PM

Peace and others,

sometimes questions & statements are directed to one person to further clarify points that some other people might not otherwise "get".

I assume that lots more people read these threads than post to them. And I assume that some of these people may be new to the topic of whether race does or should matter.

That said, this thread is not about labeling indiviuals or groups of people as more or less free of prejudice and enlightment than others.

I started this thread so that I and others who wished to could explore a complicated but, in my opinion, important subject.

I again thank those who have posted comments on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Much of our linguistic and cultural history of negative associations with darkness and blackness has little or nothing at all to do with skin color. In this age of sensitivity about racism, I sometimes think there has been a hypersensitivity about black and dark; and there has been an attempt to suppress things that have nothing to do with racism.

It's hard to figure out what's right and wrong in all this. Black has long been associated with death and doom - but is this because of skin color, or is it because of other associations? Is it racist to worry about black storm clouds and tornadoes, and moonless nights, and produce and flowers that are black and withered? Is "calling a spade a spade" a racist expression, and does it have to do with cards, shovels, or people?

In this whole matter of darkness and blackness, what's reasonable sensitivity and what's silliness?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: mg
Date: 19 May 07 - 05:19 PM

About the Italians and Greeks...it was not long ago, probably still going on in my lifetime, when there was pretty serious prejudice against Italians, Greeks, others of Mediteranean descent. Italians in USA have particularly suffered because of Mafia assumptions. They were definitely second-class citizens and considered socially inferior. But they helped build America, feed America..have you ever been to an old Italian or Greek neighborhood..Seattle and Vancouver BC still had them years ago..and you could see how they fed a family on a little city lot..every cubic inch reaching up to the sky covered with food..a winery in the basement..a pigeon rookery on the roof..probably some chickens..maybe a goat hiding somewhere...awesome. mg