BS: Arafat's $300 million

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:01 PM

This, as far as I read it was not started as an anti Palestinian/Muslim/Arab thread. It asked a legitimate question, that you chose to percieve as criticism and racist.

That speaks far more about your tendencies than anyone who has posted to it. Do you honestly believe that someone is unanswerable, on the basis of their nationality alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:13 PM

I would agree with your first point, Guest, 15 Feb 04 - 06:01 PM, were it not for the context in which I first responded to this thread when it was new. That context was that the government of Israel, as well as almost all of the US media, were calling for Arafat to be removed, against the wishes of the Palestinians. And the Israeli government was (and still is) refusing to negotiate with him.

On your second point, no, I do not. But I do think we have an obligation to uphold the principles of democracy. I don't think the US has a right to tell either the Palestinians or the Israelis who their leaders should be (or will be). And I don't think that the government of Israel has that right either.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM

Back to the theme of this thread:

Why was €1m a month sent to Arafat's wife? (The moderately left Guardian, usually not known for being unsympathetic towards the Palestinian cause).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM

Here you go, brucie. As I mentioned before, it has been suggested (by Palestinians among others), that if Sharon wanted to get rid of Arafat, he wouldn't be making him such a big issue:

GARDELS: Has Sharon's strategy to isolate Arafat and destroy his effectiveness backfired?

SHAATH: Absolutely. Arafat today is the most powerful leader in the whole Arab world. His constituency now is not just the Palestinians, but every one of the 300 million Arabs.

http://www.digitalnpq.org/global_services/global%20viewpoint/04-08-02shaath.html

Arafat is very useful to the Sharon administration for many different reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 08:11 PM

The question remains: What is he doing with the cash. That is, from whence cameth it?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 08:41 PM

I don't think that question has been answered by anyone yet brucie. It's only been asked. This is what is said about it in the link I provided in my last post:

GARDELS: The Israelis have seized documents they say show that Arafat approved purchasing materials for suicide bombers and paid terrorists. What do you make of these documents?

SHAATH: The Israelis are not the policemen of Palestine. They have no juridical rights to search through anybody's papers and decide what is a crime and what is not.

Be that as it may, these papers don't prove anything. Two of them are about financial aid given to families of men that were not bombers, but people that Israel decided to kill through extra-judicial assassination. No court indicted them for anything. The amounts paid to their families posthumously were minimal -- $1,000 for five families.

Then there is this paper which shows a request for money to buy explosive materials supposedly addressed to the financial officer of the Palestinian police force. Yet, there are no markings or signatures of approval or disapproval by any Palestinian authority.

This is the smoking gun? The full proof of culpability and guilt claimed by the prime minister of Israel and the justification for his invasion? I don't think the world is so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 09:14 PM

Thank you, Carol, but it doesn't answer the question either.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 11:04 PM

Nope. It doesn't. I've done several internet searches on this subject today, using the search words "Yasser Arafat 300 million" and "Suha Arafat" (without the quotes), and for the most part all that has come up has been what I linked to above, the Guardian article that Wolfgang linked to today, reproductions of the Guardian article on other sites, Benjamin Netanyahu's own website, some Israeli publications, a website that is run by American Jews, and some internet fora. Plus a lot of articles that contain the words in my search, but that are about other subjects. I haven't found anything conclusive in my searches, but maybe I'm not using the right search parameters. Beats me.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:25 AM

The interview with Shaath is typical of any politician's PR-person worldwide (and I may add that we can see this tactic in this thread as well): No concrete information disguised with hardly relevant attacks.

Arafat in crisis over Fatah exodus (Guardian):

...growing lawlessness in several West Bank cities, notably Nablus and Jenin, since the Israeli army drove Palestinian police from the streets. Palestinians are killing each other in criminal violence and fights for political turf. ...
More than 350 activists signed the resignation letter delivered to Mr Arafat and Fatah's central committee. "Fatah is beginning to disintegrate as a result of internal contradictions, Fatah is not united," it said. "Fatah, as it stands today, is leading us toward tribalism, internal conflict and a bottomless pit." ...
Fatah's constitution requires leadership elections every five years, but none has been held for 15 years. Many members are frustrated at what they see as an aging leadership ... unwilling to surrender power.

Now compare that with what Carol has cited, Arafat today is the most powerful leader in the whole Arab world. His constituency now is not just the Palestinians, but every one of the 300 million Arabs, and you'll see that Shaath uses just a tiny bit of exaggeration in his defense of Arafat. Without the external threat by Israel's (since the last change of government) often very stupid politics the superficial unity of the Palestinians would break down quickly.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:44 AM

It probably wasn't exaggeration when the interview was conducted, Wolfgang.

But I agree pretty much with this:

Without the external threat by Israel's (since the last change of government) often very stupid politics the superficial unity of the Palestinians would break down quickly.

With this exception. I think that without the Israeli threat, Arafat would have accomplished his dream of being the father of the first independent Palestinian State, and he would have retired as an elder statesman by now and people with a political approach that is more appropriate for the needs of the day would have already taken his place.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM

I think that without the Israeli threat, Arafat would have accomplished his dream of being the father of the first independent Palestinian State, and he would have retired as an elder statesman by now

CarolC,

That is one of the most off-base theories I've ever read in your thousands of anti-Israel postings.

Just a 3.5 years ago, peace and Palestinian statehood was imminent. The economies of both Israel and Palestine were thriving. President Clinton brokered a deal in which 95% of Arafat's demands were met by the Israeli government of Ehud Barak. 95%.

Rather than continue negotiations, as any statesman would, Arafat broke off the talks and unleashed the Intifada and an unending wave of terrorist attacks.

Faced with Intifada and unending terrorism, the fearful Israelis, quite predictably, elected Sharon, a hardline prime minister.

The corrupt Arafat is the reason for the current state of affairs. He is the reason so many on both sides have been killed. He is the reason there is no Palestinian state.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM

Guest, as I'm sure you know from reading my many hundreds of posts on this subject, your assertions in your 16 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM post are factually incorrect. And this part:

Just a 3.5 years ago, peace and Palestinian statehood was imminent. The economies of both Israel and Palestine were thriving. President Clinton brokered a deal in which 95% of Arafat's demands were met by the Israeli government of Ehud Barak. 95%.

...is a lie.

But you knew that because you keep a running tally of all of my posts on this subject.

Arafat signed the Oslo accords and the PLO was honoring it's committments under Oslo, while Israel violated it's obligations under Oslo by continuing to build new settlements. After Rabin was murdered by an Israeli terrorist, his successor, Netanyahu, abandoned Oslo entirely. Even Shimon Perez admits this. Barak's offer to the Palestinians was nowhere near 95% of what the Palestinians wanted. Barak was offering nothing less than an aparthied state with the Palestinians living in tiny bantustans, with vast areas of Israeli controlled land in between them. The violence started when Netanyahu, and then Sharon after him, continued to reneg on the Oslo accords by escalating the construction of new settlements in the occupied territories. When the Palestinians lost all hope that the Israelis would ever honor the agreements they signed with the Palestinians, that's when the second intifada broke out. But you knew this because you keep a running tally on my many hundreds of posts on this subject.

The corruption of Arafat has nothing to do with the current state of affairs. The current state of affairs is exactly what the government of Israel wants it to be. And it will continue this way until either, A. all of the Palestinians are permanently removed from Israel and the Occupied Territories, B. the world community finds a way to prevent this from happening, or C. Israel and other countries in the Middle East destroy each other in a nuclear holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM

Stick with it CarolC. There is a massive imbalance in the aid given to the Palistinians and that given to the Israelis. There is also a massive difference in how UN resolutions on Israel are treated in comparison to other countries. I dislike guests who do not give some form of identity so if I criticise the last guest for his odd view point about Arafat insofar as that Arafat brought the PLO to being an organisation which would negotiate rather than bomb. I hope that it doesn't offend the other guests who choose to have no identity. Why do they get into a discussion?
Personally if I lived in a shed and watched other people farm what was my land and live in what was my house I would be well pissed off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:53 PM

I know I will get bombarded for expressing this thought, but here it goes: If the world felt sooooo guilty about the holocaust, why didn't they give the Jews part of Germany instead of Palestine?

I can see no reason the Palestinians should have been pushed out of their homes to live in tents in the desert.

I think the only reason the U.S. supports Israel is for the strategic location.

Where is the justification for that?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM

Much of what is present-day Israel was bought and paid for. The quagmire known as the mid-East is not the making of only Israel. Stop blaming them to the exclusion of others and for the exclusion of others. Many states around Israel have expressed the desire to 'exterminate' the Israelis. Most Israelis were born in Israel. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but Israel is not the sole reason they do not have one. There is more oil money in various other countries in the mid_East to friggin' pave the Sinai. However, it has been in the political interest of those countries to keep the plight of the Palestinians going. And today, it continues to go on. And no one seems to want to answer the question that started this thread: where the hell did Arafat get the loot, and who did he get it from? I am tired of Israel getting the shit all the time. Look to the Arab neighbours who surround the State of Israel. Friendly? Maybe not. Rich? Yes. And so little of that money finds its way to the uneducated masses. No, sorry, don't give me the gears about how wonderful Arab countries are; common people live in a poverty we can only imagine, and the wealthy remain so. Their wealth is not used to improve the conditions of the average citizen. Israel is far from perfect, but neither are its neighbours. And that can't be blamed on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 08:50 PM

Israel is the sole reason that people (whom we now call Palestinians) are being kicked off of land their families have lived on and farmed for centuries, brucie. And that land was not bought and paid for. It's being stolen out from under their feet as we speak. And that's the cause of the present problems beween the Palestinians and Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:17 PM

To all of you, Mudcatters and guests, who attempt to argue the politics and reality of the Middle East with CarolC,

Give it up. She will wear you down as she has worn down so many before.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:23 PM

Some of what you say is true, Carol. Not all of it. I realize that many Palestinians have lost their homes to the Israelis. That is a tragedy, and it is wrong. But so too is assuming that Israel is the only bad guy in the mess we call the mid-East. They are not, and you know that. I don't mind calling a spade a shovel, but I will not sit and hear the Arab world lauded for its humanitarian work or concern for the Palestinians. They do not care. They too use the Palestinians as pawns in the game, not just the Israeli government. Let's be very clear on that, OK?

Also, someone implied that you are anti-semitic because of your stance in regard to the Palestinian situation. That is not so. I think you are very passionate about the plight of the Palestinian people, and disliking the politics of the Israeli government does not ipso facto mean you hate the people who live in Israel. Please know that you and I will argue this on the odd occasion, but I do not believe that of you. Best regards,

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:23 PM

I certainly hope so. Nothing would make me happier (in the context of the Mudcat) than to see an end to threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:25 PM

My last was addressed to the Guest. I'll read yours now, brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:36 PM

I certainly haven't lauded the Arab world for its humanitarian work or its concern for the Palestinians. But I will say that the Palestinians are not their responsibility, while they are the responsibility of the US, Britain, and Israel.

As for lauding people for their concern for Palestinians and their humanitarian work, the ones I mention the most, and to whom I am the most grateful for their good work and their humanity are the many Jewish human rights organizations (and other human rights organizations) who fight this battle every single day. I'd like to see these people get a lot more credit than they do.

And thanks again for your good words.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:08 PM

If there's gonna be a big brawl any time soon, I wanna be on Carol's side. Carol, I don't know why, but when I read your postings I am reminded of a German Shepherd I once had. She was the most stubborn dog I ever met in my entire life. And she knew it, too. Just thought I'd mention. Also, the remark about 'lauding' was not directed at you. It was a general statement. Have a good evening, Carol.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM

Jewish Arafat?

Yasser Arafat may be related to Jews, according to a PLO official's new book.

Israel's daily Yediot Achronot on Tuesday quoted "Yasser Arafat and the Zionist Solution for the Palestine Crisis" as claiming that the Palestinian leader's father was born in the Moroccan village of Al-Kidwa and had family links to the large Jewish population there. The author, Razi Hussein, is the PLO's legal and political secretary in Damascus, the newspaper said.

There was no immediate reaction from Arafat, who always has claimed to be a scion of the noted Al-Husseini clan of Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM

Excluding CarolC, is there anyone who actually believes anything that Arafat claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:33 PM

Thankfully NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:24 PM

Arafat? I believe him no more than any other politician. I am, however, very glad that the Palestinians have a leader strong enough to stand up to the U.S., Israel and Britain.

If I were Palestinian, I would be grateful.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:35 PM

I would be curious to know how many Palestinians feel it safe to ask out loud what Arafat is doing with the cash. Don't want to start a row. Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 08:13 PM

Re: Guest's 17 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM post - before the Europeans started settling in the region, everyone who lived in Palestine was a Palestinian. That includes Christians and Jews along with the Muslims. And it's not unheard of for Jews to intermarry with the people we call "Palestinians" within Israel and the Occupied Territories today. Do you care whether or not Arafat is related to Jews? Does anyone here care?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:32 PM

Not I!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:42 PM

Memo to Arafat from Islamic activist Irshad Manji

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:52 PM

I keep posting that I would vote for Boss Tweed over George W. Bush. There's some method in this madness. The man whose name was synonymous with corruption was also a great friend to New York's working poor. He knew which side his bread was buttered on.
They held Tweed in high regard, turning out in droves for his funeral. He may have been a crook, but he was THEIR crook.
I think the same may be said for Arafat. He's their crook. Dishonest officials are not unknown in the mid east. The Ottoman Empire was notoriously corrupt. The Palestinians see Arafat as the man who can best look after their interests. So they don't care if he's not honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:30 AM

Well, he's lookin' after their $300 million, anyway, and no doubt the interest on that!

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM

Price Waterhouse: Do you really think that Bush lives on his salary?

What is his net worth?

What is the net worth of the Canadian P.M.?

What is the net worth of Blair?

You don't get to be a major political player unless you have a small fortune to back you. And then its just a means to an end. That end being more money.

Lets face it, not many are into the game for the good of the people.

Lets stop believing that politics are about anything other than personal gain. The masses are so hungry for a Messiah or a Christ figure, they'll settle for a warrior. Elect me as queen of the world. I'll be a benevolent autocrat!

d

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM

And what is the net worth of a fisherman?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:34 AM

All this discussion about wealth and not one mention of John Kerry who is worth 650 million dollars and would be the thier richest president ever. (if elected)   Of course, he earned his money the old fashioned way.   He married for it.

Larry K

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 02:12 PM

World bank finally warns Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM

Arafat's money.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:04 PM

Larry K:

The Heinz fortune doesn't belong to Kerry, I believe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:19 AM

GUEST: Thank you. Now we know.